So for the past few years, I would keep the thero at 68 during the day
while I am at work, then to 70 when I am home.

With the increase in oil cost and more inefficiency in my heating
system (I am working on it), I am needing to put the thermo to 72
degrees when I am home to be comfortable.

Here is a formula:

Old way:

10 hours @ 68 degrees = 680
14 hours @ 70 degrees = 980

Total of hours x degrees = 1660

New way:

10 hours @ 65 degrees = 650
14 hours @ 72 degrees = 1008

Total of hours x degrees = 1658

Does heat work that way, or does it take more juice to get to 72
degrees instead of 70?
Feel free to tell my how foolish my heat calculation is.


Bluesman

wrote:

So for the past few years, I would keep the thero at 68 during the day
while I am at work, then to 70 when I am home.

With the increase in oil cost and more inefficiency in my heating
system (I am working on it), I am needing to put the thermo to 72
degrees when I am home to be comfortable.

Here is a formula:

Old way:

10 hours @ 68 degrees = 680
14 hours @ 70 degrees = 980

Total of hours x degrees = 1660

New way:

10 hours @ 65 degrees = 650
14 hours @ 72 degrees = 1008

Total of hours x degrees = 1658

Does heat work that way, or does it take more juice to get to 72
degrees instead of 70?
Feel free to tell my how foolish my heat calculation is.


Bluesman


Your looking at it in the right direction, but your method of
calculation isn't correct.

The first thing to realize is that heat always runs "downhill" from hot
materials to cold ones. and the way to look at it is that the amount of
"juice" as you put it, is basically delta-T (the difference in inside
and outsided temperatures) times a factor for whatever "thermal
resistance" the heat flows through, in your case, that's the insulation
of the walls, roof and windows of your dwelling. Winds outside come into
it too, as a second order effect.

And yes, all other things being equal it does take "more juice" the get
to 72 than to 70, and more to keep it at 72 than at 70, when the outside
temperature is below 70.

The simplest and most efficient way to do what you are talking about is
to set the heat as low as you can when you're not home, as long as you
don't run into the possibility of freezing plumbing, and then turn it up
to 72 or whatever you want when you return. That's providing you don't
mind whatever waiting time your heating system takes to raise the
temperature to where you get comfortable. If you can't tolerate the
wait, then set your "not home" temperature a little higher.

You might also want to consider going a little higher tech and using a
timed thermostat set to raise the temperature a bit before your expected
return, or use some of the whiz-bang gadgetry that lets you control
stuff like that with a telephone call.

Happy Holidays,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

The more inefficient that your system is, the more "juice" it takes to
get to 70 degrees. No need to set the thermostt higher.

Your away temperature of 68 degrees is way too high! Mine is 48
degrees.

wrote:

Here is a formula:

Old way:

10 hours @ 68 degrees = 680
14 hours @ 70 degrees = 980

Total of hours x degrees = 1660

New way:

10 hours @ 65 degrees = 650
14 hours @ 72 degrees = 1008

Total of hours x degrees = 1658

Does heat work that way...

Yes. The new way uses slightly less heat.

Nick

Thanks to Jeff for the detailed explanation...I will look to a
prgrammable thermo -

Scott, my system is inefficient because one of my big radiators is not
getting too hot. I think its a valve issue, so to get the house
confortable, It has to go to 72.

48 degrees !!

I have a 18 year old cat in the house - don't want a catcicle when I
get home. Maybe I will drop it to 62 and see how that goes.

Bluesman

48 degrees !!

I have a 18 year old cat in the house - don't want a catcicle when I
get home. Maybe I will drop it to 62 and see how that goes.

Maybe you can buy the cat a fur coat.

wrote:
Thanks to Jeff for the detailed explanation...I will look to a
prgrammable thermo -

Scott, my system is inefficient because one of my big radiators is not
getting too hot. I think its a valve issue, so to get the house
confortable, It has to go to 72.

48 degrees !!

I have a 18 year old cat in the house - don't want a catcicle when I
get home.


We drop it to 45 and our cat Darwin hasn't said he minds it at all. I'm
hoping it'll help burn some of the fat off of him.

He's gotten so rotund that he can't run as fast as the mice anymore, so
he's mechanized the process:

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/jeff/mousetrap1.jpg

We're in the Boston area BTW. Wuz 14 F outside when I left this morning.

Happy Holidays,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

wrote:
So for the past few years, I would keep the thero at 68 during the day
while I am at work, then to 70 when I am home.

With the increase in oil cost and more inefficiency in my heating
system (I am working on it), I am needing to put the thermo to 72
degrees when I am home to be comfortable.

Here is a formula:

Old way:

10 hours @ 68 degrees = 680
14 hours @ 70 degrees = 980

Total of hours x degrees = 1660

New way:

10 hours @ 65 degrees = 650
14 hours @ 72 degrees = 1008

Total of hours x degrees = 1658

Does heat work that way, or does it take more juice to get to 72
degrees instead of 70?
Feel free to tell my how foolish my heat calculation is.

The wind outside is a major factor in the amount of heat loss.

wrote in message

With the increase in oil cost and more inefficiency in my heating
system (I am working on it), I am needing to put the thermo to 72
degrees when I am home to be comfortable.

Setting the thermostat and actual temperature are different things. Why do
you have to set it higher to feel the same? The thermostat is a switch. The
heater is either off or on. If it is running and brings the heat high
enough to trip the switch, that is what counts. Other factors are at work
here. It may be easier to fix that problem.


Here is a formula:

Does heat work that way, or does it take more juice to get to 72
degrees instead of 70?

Yes, you have the right idea. That is similar to the "degree days" the oil
companies use to determine when to deliver to you. IIRC, they use the
differential between actual temperature and 60 degrees.


Feel free to tell my how foolish my heat calculation is.

You have to think about temperature differential. The greater the
differential, the greater the loss.

You can increase comfort by adding a humidifier, cutting down drafts that
create heat loss, add insulation. If it has been a long time since you've
done any of that, do a quick review to see if there have been any changes.
Ed

wrote:
Thanks to Jeff for the detailed explanation...I will look to a
prgrammable thermo -


I just remembered I should have mentioned that if getting a timed
thermostat and installing it is too big a hassle you can jury rig one
easily.

Just get an inexpensive plug-in-the wall light timer and connect a small
lamp bulb, like a nightlite bulb, to it on a length of cord.

Let the timer light the bulb when you want the temperature to be lower.
Experiment with locating that bulb on the wall below the thermostat.
You'll find a location where the rising heat from the bulb will "fool"
the thermostat into thinking the room temperature is higher than it
really is and thus "push the heat down" the amount you want.

A "red-neck" solution, but one which works quite well.

Happy Holidays,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

John Harlow wrote:

48 degrees !!

I have a 18 year old cat in the house - don't want a catcicle when I
get home. Maybe I will drop it to 62 and see how that goes.



Maybe you can buy the cat a fur coat.






I think it might already have one.

Holy ****! My cat's name is Fatass, but that thing is a monster!

It actually looks like it's been touched up to make the cat look huge!
Bluesman

Now that is some ghetto thermo rigging...but it makes me wonder - the
xmas tree is within a few feet of the thermo - perhaps that is making
the house cold at night when the tree is lit..

hmm....


Bluesman

On 12/20/2004 2:40 PM US(ET), Jeff Wisnia took fingers to keys, and=20
typed the following:

wrote:

Thanks to Jeff for the detailed explanation...I will look to a
prgrammable thermo -

Scott, my system is inefficient because one of my big radiators is not=

getting too hot. I think its a valve issue, so to get the house
confortable, It has to go to 72.

48 degrees !!

I have a 18 year old cat in the house - don't want a catcicle when I
get home.



We drop it to 45 and our cat Darwin hasn't said he minds it at all.=20
I'm hoping it'll help burn some of the fat off of him.

He's gotten so rotund that he can't run as fast as the mice anymore,=20
so he's mechanized the process:

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/jeff/mousetrap1.jpg

We're in the Boston area BTW. Wuz 14 F outside when I left this morning=
=2E

Was 6=BA F (-14 C) here in NY this morning.

wrote:

Holy ****! My cat's name is Fatass, but that thing is a monster!

It actually looks like it's been touched up to make the cat look huge!
Bluesman


Honest injun it's not unretouched. It's mostly hair. He was at the vet's
for his annual rabies shot last month and weighed in at only 12.5 lbs,
down half a pound from the year before.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

wrote:

Now that is some ghetto thermo rigging...but it makes me wonder - the
xmas tree is within a few feet of the thermo - perhaps that is making
the house cold at night when the tree is lit..

hmm....


Bluesman


Well, X10 makes a "thermostat setback" gadget which works on the same
principle I described, nly it has an adjustable power level so you don't
have to move it up and down on the wall to adjust the number of degrees
of setback. Here's one now:

http://asihome.com/ASIshop/product_i...roducts_id=657

And, back in the '50s when I worked for a TV shop, those big vacuum tube
TV consoles put out a lot of heat. When we were delivering one to a
customer's home and they told us to put it against a wall right below
the thermostat we knew enough to warn them that the heat from the TV set
when it was on would fool the thermostat and make the room "get colder".

Happy Holidays,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

wrote:

Holy ****! My cat's name is Fatass, but that thing is a monster!

It actually looks like it's been touched up to make the cat look huge!
Bluesman


Honest injun it's not unretouched. It's mostly hair. He was at the vet's
for his annual rabies shot last month and weighed in at only 12.5 lbs,
down half a pound from the year before.

(Double negative unintentional...The photo is REAL, not faked up...)

Jeff



--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks to Jeff for the detailed explanation...I will look to a
prgrammable thermo -

Scott, my system is inefficient because one of my big radiators is not
getting too hot. I think its a valve issue, so to get the house
confortable, It has to go to 72.

48 degrees !!

I have a 18 year old cat in the house - don't want a catcicle when I
get home. Maybe I will drop it to 62 and see how that goes.

Bluesman


Put a heating pad on the bottom of the cat house. Small electric charge vs.
big heat bill. Also when you go to sleep turn the heat down and use an
electric blanket. Have your programmable thermostat fire up the heat a half
an hour before you get up.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

We drop it to 45 and our cat Darwin hasn't said he minds it at all. I'm
hoping it'll help burn some of the fat off of him.

The cat that used to own me would complain bitterly about the cold
every fall for about three days. Then he would start eating about
twice as much dry cat food and stop complaining.
--
I am TERRIBLY cruel to my cat. I tease him with a vine tendril
until he either jumps up in the air to bat at it or zooms around
in a circle until he gets too dizzy to stand up. What is cruel about
it is that I don't do it nearly as much as he wants me to.

Now, this is an interesting subject. First, the actual temp isn't really 68
or 72, cause the actual zero is about -450, where the mollecules stop
jiggling.

Your furnace runs just enough to replace the heat that is lost to the
outside. If you lose some ammount of heat, the furnace replace it.

Heat loss depends on a couple things. Air loss (drafts) and conduction
through the walls, ceiling, etc.

If it's colder outside, the air leaking in is colder. And the delta T
(difference in temperatures from inside to outside) is higher.

Anyhow, if you turn your thermostat down it saves you money. Because the
delta T is lower. And also the air that leaks out isn't quite as hot (and
you didn't pay to heat it up hotter).

If you don't feel warm enough during the winter, get a humidifier.

--

Christopher A. Young
Keep Jesus Christ in CHRISTmas
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
oups.com...
So for the past few years, I would keep the thero at 68 during the day
while I am at work, then to 70 when I am home.

With the increase in oil cost and more inefficiency in my heating
system (I am working on it), I am needing to put the thermo to 72
degrees when I am home to be comfortable.

Here is a formula:

Old way:

10 hours @ 68 degrees = 680
14 hours @ 70 degrees = 980

Total of hours x degrees = 1660

New way:

10 hours @ 65 degrees = 650
14 hours @ 72 degrees = 1008

Total of hours x degrees = 1658

Does heat work that way, or does it take more juice to get to 72
degrees instead of 70?
Feel free to tell my how foolish my heat calculation is.


Bluesman

Good point. My away temp is 58.

--

Christopher A. Young
Keep Jesus Christ in CHRISTmas
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
oups.com...
The more inefficient that your system is, the more "juice" it takes to
get to 70 degrees. No need to set the thermostt higher.

Your away temperature of 68 degrees is way too high! Mine is 48
degrees.

Stormin Mormon wrote:



If you don't feel warm enough during the winter, get a humidifier.


Or a young mistress. G

Happy Holidays guys,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Now, this is an interesting subject. First, the actual temp isn't really 68
or 72, cause the actual zero is about -450, where the mollecules stop
jiggling.
Not really. It doesn't get down to absolute zero, at least in my
neighborhood.

You are concerned with the heat flow out of your house. Heat flow is
proportional to the DIFFERENCE in termperatures, inside and outside.
And it's inversely proportional to the R-factor of the walls.

In a previous house I wired an old electric alarm clock across the
circulator pump so I could measure how much the system was producing
heat for the house. The result was that only loose correlation with
the degree-days. Wind seemed to have a much bigger effect.

William W. Plummer wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Now, this is an interesting subject. First, the actual temp isn't
really 68
or 72, cause the actual zero is about -450, where the mollecules stop
jiggling.

Not really. It doesn't get down to absolute zero, at least in my
neighborhood.

You are concerned with the heat flow out of your house. Heat flow is
proportional to the DIFFERENCE in termperatures, inside and outside. And
it's inversely proportional to the R-factor of the walls.

In a previous house I wired an old electric alarm clock across the
circulator pump so I could measure how much the system was producing
heat for the house. The result was that only loose correlation with
the degree-days. Wind seemed to have a much bigger effect.

Some degree day monitoring systems I've seen do attempt to take wind
into account.

One I saw looked like a birdhouse on a pole. It had a small electric
heater and a remote reading thermometer inside it.

You can figure out the rest.

Happy Holidays,

jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

I must be slipping on a mental bannnannannaanaa peel. I oughta thought of
that.

--

Christopher A. Young
Keep Jesus Christ in CHRISTmas
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:



If you don't feel warm enough during the winter, get a humidifier.


Or a young mistress. G

Happy Holidays guys,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

And on the second day it was full of nesting sparrows, which changed the
thermodynamic principles as they started to build a nest. Which insullated
the sensor.

--

Christopher A. Young
Keep Jesus Christ in CHRISTmas
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
William W. Plummer wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Now, this is an interesting subject. First, the actual temp isn't
really 68
or 72, cause the actual zero is about -450, where the mollecules stop
jiggling.

Not really. It doesn't get down to absolute zero, at least in my
neighborhood.

You are concerned with the heat flow out of your house. Heat flow is
proportional to the DIFFERENCE in termperatures, inside and outside. And
it's inversely proportional to the R-factor of the walls.

In a previous house I wired an old electric alarm clock across the
circulator pump so I could measure how much the system was producing
heat for the house. The result was that only loose correlation with
the degree-days. Wind seemed to have a much bigger effect.

Some degree day monitoring systems I've seen do attempt to take wind
into account.

One I saw looked like a birdhouse on a pole. It had a small electric
heater and a remote reading thermometer inside it.

You can figure out the rest.

Happy Holidays,

jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

More inserted.

--

Christopher A. Young
Keep Jesus Christ in CHRISTmas
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"William W. Plummer" wrote in
message news:z%kyd.796833$8_6.674798@attbi_s04...
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Now, this is an interesting subject. First, the actual temp isn't really
68
or 72, cause the actual zero is about -450, where the mollecules stop
jiggling.
Not really. It doesn't get down to absolute zero, at least in my
neighborhood.
CY: I don't care if it gets to absoloute zero or not. The actual temp is
from absolsoute up.


You are concerned with the heat flow out of your house. Heat flow is
proportional to the DIFFERENCE in termperatures, inside and outside.
And it's inversely proportional to the R-factor of the walls.
CY: I think I said the first half of that already.


In a previous house I wired an old electric alarm clock across the
circulator pump so I could measure how much the system was producing
heat for the house. The result was that only loose correlation with
the degree-days. Wind seemed to have a much bigger effect.
CY: Now, that is interesting.