On 08/09/2013 19:02, Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2013 16:23 Dave Liquorice wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Sun, 8 Sep 2013 14:49:55 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Well I got sick it so I grabbed him by the throat slammed him
against
a wall put my fist to his face and shouted "answer back to me
once
more and I'll smash your face in".

Probably .. If someone else or more then the someone else had tried to
drum a few things into him when he was younger then you wouldn't have to
be doing that now;!...

Quite, Schools have just gone back and the media has stories of
children starting school for the first time still in nappies or
unable to use a knife and fork. What have their parents been doing
for the last 4 years or so FFS!.

I have just had it confirmed by one of mine that there are some kids getting
their food cut up for them in thye lower primary school years.

They do not even make them finish the mains befor ethey are allowed pudding
- this I have seen with my own eyes.

I must admit I was (and still am to an extent, although much less so) a
very faddy eater. It's not that I dislike the taste of most foods, but
certain textures and any hot food that has cooled too much make me
heave. In my primary school days, the meals were poor quality and cooked
off-site, so often fatty, chewy meat and half cold, with congealed
gravy. Being forced to eat it made my life hell, made approaching dinner
times something to dread and put me off most foods for the next 20
years. The number of dinnertimes I spent stuck at the table while
everyone else was out playing, crying my eyes out as some sadistic
dinnerlady insisted I eat it all are uncountable. If I'd been allowed to
leave what I intensely disliked (even if it meant no pudding), my
primary school life would have been a whole lot better and I'd have
eaten a much wider selection of food in the following decades.

SteveW

In message , GB
writes
On 08/09/2013 14:33, Mr Pounder wrote:

Hmmmm, when I got my first job as an apprentice I would probably have
floundered if asked why I wanted to become a heating engineer.
Who interviews them Adam? Somebody hands on or somebody sat all day in the
office?

It's a daft question, really. Some jobs are a vocation - missionary,
teacher, doctor, etc. But nobody has a vocation to be an electrician.
It's just a way to earn a living that's quite interesting and involves
a mixture of mental and manual skills.

Huh! I had an interview at George Kents (remember them?). There was a
session where various contraptions with the working parts hidden were
held up before the applicants. We were asked to sketch out the hidden
mechanisms.

At the follow up interview I was asked if I had any interest in the
electrical side of the business:-)


--
Tim Lamb

On 08/09/2013 16:15, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:32:32 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they think
they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That, and the
short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,

Clearly you have been reading the Daily Mail.

Well it's half myth, half truth. I have four teachers in my family, one
of whom is head of department and another is deputy head (all at
secondary schools). Some do indeed do many hours of preparation and
marking in the evenings and at weekends, others have never been seen to
do anything at all outside school hours, except for supervising school
trips abroad.

SteveW

On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 19:38:25 +0100, alan wrote:

On 08/09/2013 18:53, Tim Watts wrote:


So they do their lesson plans, prep and other paperwork in lesson time?


And what is the average total lesson time per week when taken over a
working year (46 weeks - includes an allowance for holidays/bank
holidays)?

In my part of the country the schools are open for "lessons" for the
equivalent of 38 weeks a year.

And if you think teachers only work during term times - think again.

And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time - think
again.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 20:13:23 +0100, Bill wrote:

In message , tony sayer
writes
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they
think they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That,
and the short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,


When U get a moment Dave come up here and argue that with SWMBO and some
of her colleagues;!...

Hi Tony.

Ditto.

+1




--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In message , tim.....
writes

An apprentice who joined in my year turned out to be a member of the
Plymouth Brethren. He wasn't allowed to do anything *worldly*.

and what do you mean by that? Does it stop the person doing the job?

Apparently. He sat twiddling his thumbs in the apprentice school for 3
weeks and then disappeared.

Someone didn't ask enough questions.

It's a question that if you did ask (and act upon the answer) could see
you on the wrong end of a discrimination suit

This was 1960!

I suppose a suitable question might be *now John, if we were to offer
you this opportunity would you be able to work alongside someone
listening to the radio?*

I made that up but that was his sort of problem.

--
Tim Lamb

On 08/09/2013 15:19, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 11:53:41 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Place where we go sometimes has a young lady there who's miss industry
herself, an excellent worker and just gets on with the job no problems
at all. Her guv'nor speaks very highly of her and can't praise her
enough.

But don't expect her to join in with any outside work activities she
just won't do that at all .. Shes in the witnesses ..

When I've wanted building work done that's outside my area of ability/
time, I try to get one local building firm (but they're very booked up).

All Witnesses.

They're probably booked up building Witness halls. Have you seen the
speed they build them?!

SteveW

On 08/09/2013 11:53, tony sayer wrote:
In article , tim.....
scribeth thus

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Bill
writes
In message , ARW
writes
Well the new apprentice does charity work. And not any old voluntary
charity
work - he has paid to take a course to be allowed to do this work.

Does anyone else find this impressive?


Most impressive.

You sound as though you may actually like this one?

An apprentice who joined in my year turned out to be a member of the
Plymouth Brethren. He wasn't allowed to do anything *worldly*.

and what do you mean by that? Does it stop the person doing the job?

Someone didn't ask enough questions.

It's a question that if you did ask (and act upon the answer) could see you
on the wrong end of a discrimination suit

tim


--
Tim Lamb



Place where we go sometimes has a young lady there who's miss industry
herself, an excellent worker and just gets on with the job no problems
at all. Her guv'nor speaks very highly of her and can't praise her
enough.

But don't expect her to join in with any outside work activities she
just won't do that at all .. Shes in the witnesses ..

As a child I had a Witness family living opposite (well she and the kids
were, he wasn't but had agreed to bring the kids up as Witnesses).

The kids were normal in most ways, but they couldn't attend birthday
parties.

Unfortunately for them, the eldest girl got pregnant when she was
unmarried and the younger girl got involved with a much older married
man. The boy behaved more conventionally and got married and had kids.

SteveW

On 08/09/2013 21:46, SteveW wrote:
I must admit I was (and still am to an extent, although much less so) a
very faddy eater. It's not that I dislike the taste of most foods, but
certain textures and any hot food that has cooled too much make me
heave. In my primary school days, the meals were poor quality and cooked
off-site, so often fatty, chewy meat and half cold, with congealed
gravy. Being forced to eat it made my life hell, made approaching dinner
times something to dread and put me off most foods for the next 20
years. The number of dinnertimes I spent stuck at the table while
everyone else was out playing, crying my eyes out as some sadistic
dinnerlady insisted I eat it all are uncountable. If I'd been allowed to
leave what I intensely disliked (even if it meant no pudding), my
primary school life would have been a whole lot better and I'd have
eaten a much wider selection of food in the following decades.

I agree completely. Except time has told me I'm not that faddy - I'll
eat about half what is on any restaurant anywhere in the world. Just not
the half the school or my mother gave me.

Andy

On 08/09/2013 22:38, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/09/2013 21:46, SteveW wrote:
I must admit I was (and still am to an extent, although much less so) a
very faddy eater. It's not that I dislike the taste of most foods, but
certain textures and any hot food that has cooled too much make me
heave. In my primary school days, the meals were poor quality and cooked
off-site, so often fatty, chewy meat and half cold, with congealed
gravy. Being forced to eat it made my life hell, made approaching dinner
times something to dread and put me off most foods for the next 20
years. The number of dinnertimes I spent stuck at the table while
everyone else was out playing, crying my eyes out as some sadistic
dinnerlady insisted I eat it all are uncountable. If I'd been allowed to
leave what I intensely disliked (even if it meant no pudding), my
primary school life would have been a whole lot better and I'd have
eaten a much wider selection of food in the following decades.

I agree completely. Except time has told me I'm not that faddy - I'll
eat about half what is on any restaurant anywhere in the world. Just not
the half the school or my mother gave me.

Andy

I attended, if I can count correctly, five primary schools. The abiding
memories of all of them involve school meals.

Maybe I was faddy - but there are some things I still simply cannot eat,
even when "disguised" or unexpected. Egg white (such as boiled, poached
or fried), mushrooms - especially the slimy ones, cartilaginous lumps,
etc. When I not so long ago had an endoscope down my throat, they
struggled (and I struggled!) and they marked my records with "extremely
strong gag reflex" - which is exactly what I have always felt I had. Not
something you can easily control.

--
Rod

Tim Watts wrote:
I have just had it confirmed by one of mine that there are some kids getting
their food cut up for them in thye lower primary school years.

When I started going All Day (as opposed to Mornings Only) at kindergarten/lower primary, I had to take a napkin ring for lunchtimes :-)

Of course, I now realise this was an economy measure to save the school laundering the napkins daily.

Owain

On 8 Sep 2013 16:45:54 GMT Huge wrote :
Although I would say that once I left school, it turned out that most of
the teachers were actually human beings beneath the defensive camouflage.

Yes, I got to know one as a person after leaving school. If we were the
prisoners in awe of the warders, the warders were just as much in awe of a
dictatorial governor. He mentioned that one of his memories was the day the
head came into the staff room. I was puzzled. He explained that the norm
was for the staff room phone to ring and a teacher to be summoned to the
head's office as if they were a naughty child.

For the school I have nothing but unhappy memories. I remember a good
number of teachers with affection.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On 08/09/2013 21:31, Bill wrote:
In message , Andy Cap
writes
On 09/08/2013 08:09 PM, tony sayer wrote:


I have just had it confirmed by one of mine that there are some kids
getting
their food cut up for them in thye lower primary school years.

They do not even make them finish the mains befor ethey are allowed
pudding
- this I have seen with my own eyes.


Seems it gets worse!.

Just wonder who let t us get into this state of affairs?...


http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News...lence-against-
Cambridgeshire-teachers-by-frenzied-pupils-revealed-20130907020000.htm


You only have to watch Jeremy Kyle to get a glimpse of the example set
to many children, plus if the children are then chastised by the
school, the 'parents' are down there immediately causing mayhem.

I was recently working with a guy, early 20s, and he made an appointment
to see the head of his kid's school to ask why a teacher had shouted at
his boy and upset him. The boy had been misbehaving and was verbally
admonished. The father said he was going to lay the law down with the
school that the teacher's behaviour was wrong and he wanted an apology
and assurances that it would not happen again. His kid of course could
do no wrong, he was just expressing himself.

We certainly have joined the school in telling off or punishing our
children if they have misbehaved, but there can be another side and
parents must be able to defend their children when they have been wronged.

Our eldest child suffered school punishments twice in the space of a
fortnight (kept in at playtimes and luchtimes) for two separate events.
The first was for hitting another child, the second was for swearing. In
both cases he came home very upset and it turned out that the teacher
(new to teaching) had got it wrong.

Yes, he did hit a child - while trying to escape from a much bigger
child who was holding him and pinning his arms to his sides, while a
second child encouraged a third to spin round with arms outstretched
getting closer and closer to him. These children had a history of
bullying him during the previous (reception) year.

Yes, he did stick two fingers up - while telling another child that my
computer had "two" DVD drives. I'd be more worried about the background
of a year 1 child who knew that two fingers was swearing!

In both cases, we politely told the teacher what had happened and she
was very sorry. Incidentally out two younger children have since had
this same teacher and she has become much more aware of what is really
happening rather than what appears to be happening at first sight.

SteveW

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 08/09/2013 14:33, Mr Pounder wrote:

Hmmmm, when I got my first job as an apprentice I would probably have
floundered if asked why I wanted to become a heating engineer.
Who interviews them Adam? Somebody hands on or somebody sat all day in
the
office?

It's a daft question, really. Some jobs are a vocation - missionary,
teacher, doctor, etc. But nobody has a vocation to be an electrician. It's
just a way to earn a living that's quite interesting and involves a
mixture of mental and manual skills.


I thought I had a vocation to be an electrician when I was about five or
six, or possibly a plumber.
Used to ask anyone we visited to see their fusebox and/or main stopcock, and
still have a fascination with
Wylex and foreign plugs and sockets, 45 years later.
Had Mum make me a birthday cake with a decoration in the form of a 5-amp
bakelite MK plug,
candles as the pins, liquorice as the flex.
Grandad made me a switchboard to fit in my baby walker that went everywhere
with me.
Became interested in electronics at 11 or 12, did radio amateur's exam, A
levels and then HND.
Worked in industrial electronics production test and customer repairs ever
since.
Collect and restore valve radios as a hobby.
It's a bit more than just a way to earn a living, but I'd certainly agree
that it's quite interesting and involves a
mixture of mental and manual skills.
The pay isn't as good as people with similar skill and educational levels
get in different fields, though.

It used to be that nursing and teaching were vocations, but are now often
careers at worst and professions at best.
This sentence may well not be understood by anyone under about 30.

Martin.

In article ,
"ARW" writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

What sort of interview or vetting do you do before you accept
them? What sort of qualifications do they need before they start?

Maths and English are normally a must.

They are all pretty much the same at interview. 16 years old and wishing
they were still in bed and that their Mother could take the interview for

If an early start is essential and something they often have trouble
with, you could at least do the interviews at the earliest start time.
That might weed out a few who can't get up that early.

What about something to weed out those without a clue and with no
interest. Even something simple such as forewarning them they will
be required to wire up a plug during the interview. A few will know
how to anyway - that's a good start, and the others will need to find
out how to before the interview - showing some ability to learn and
remember, some dexterity with simple tools, etc. (Probably need some
elastoplasts handy;-)

them. These are not the A* students you have to interview:-). You only find

Most of the people I have interviewed were not A*, and didn't get the
job. I haven't interviewed 16 year olds though, although I have had
even a 22 year old fail to show up, and when calling his home to find
out if there was some mix-up with the arrangements, his mum told me
he decided not to come (without bothering to let us know).

out what they are like when they start. The obvious rubbish can be spotted
and rejected at interview but generally you are looking at clones.

Remember the 35 year old apprentice? He passed all his exams but after a
year on the tools he was no better than when he started. He could not be
left on his own unless it was simple tasks and you were constantly covering
old ground eg if he had not wired a timed fan up for 2 months then you would
have to show him how to do it again.

So he was learning by rote, rather than understanding what he was doing.

And there those that have already done a year at college, they seem to be
the worst when it comes to work ethic.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article , Bill
scribeth thus
In message , Andy Cap
writes
On 09/08/2013 08:09 PM, tony sayer wrote:


I have just had it confirmed by one of mine that there are some kids getting
their food cut up for them in thye lower primary school years.

They do not even make them finish the mains befor ethey are allowed pudding
- this I have seen with my own eyes.


Seems it gets worse!.

Just wonder who let t us get into this state of affairs?...


http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News...lence-against-
Cambridgeshire-teachers-by-frenzied-pupils-revealed-20130907020000.htm


You only have to watch Jeremy Kyle to get a glimpse of the example set
to many children, plus if the children are then chastised by the
school, the 'parents' are down there immediately causing mayhem.

I was recently working with a guy, early 20s, and he made an appointment
to see the head of his kid's school to ask why a teacher had shouted at
his boy and upset him. The boy had been misbehaving and was verbally
admonished. The father said he was going to lay the law down with the
school that the teacher's behaviour was wrong and he wanted an apology
and assurances that it would not happen again. His kid of course could
do no wrong, he was just expressing himself.





When I were a lad etc;!...

If you were admonished at school for anything you DID NOT come home and
complain to your dad. Reason? simple, you'd get the same chastisement
repeated again;(.

You just simply got a firm message that you had done wrong and then you
learnt that you didn't do wrong again..

It was that simple...

What's more it worked, and worked well..
--
Tony Sayer

I must admit I was (and still am to an extent, although much less so) a
very faddy eater. It's not that I dislike the taste of most foods, but
certain textures and any hot food that has cooled too much make me
heave. In my primary school days, the meals were poor quality and cooked
off-site, so often fatty, chewy meat and half cold, with congealed
gravy. Being forced to eat it made my life hell, made approaching dinner
times something to dread and put me off most foods for the next 20
years. The number of dinnertimes I spent stuck at the table while
everyone else was out playing, crying my eyes out as some sadistic
dinnerlady insisted I eat it all are uncountable. If I'd been allowed to
leave what I intensely disliked (even if it meant no pudding), my
primary school life would have been a whole lot better and I'd have
eaten a much wider selection of food in the following decades.

SteveW


When I was at school I liked the school grub, in fact it was simple and
good, far better than the ****e that call school dinners these days in
some schools. Simple meat and fish and a lot of vegetables, OK sometimes
not cooked to the best they might have been but good and nutritious all
the same.

We had our share of faddy feeders but I came from a poor working class
family background and remember times when there wasn't that much on the
plate at home for various reasons.

You did then appreciate what was on the plate at school;!...
--
Tony Sayer

In article , alan
scribeth thus
On 08/09/2013 20:02, tony sayer wrote:


Thats not the teachers awarding themselves extra days off

It's exactly that and for the slightest of excuses! The last time it
happened around my way many of the schools announced they they were
closing the night before. The next day it was a normal rush hour for the
rest of us going to work. The only people missing from work were those
with unexpected child care duties.


Bunkum!..

They don't do this lightly and award themselves a day off the teachers
that I know don't they consider it a bloody nuisance and it certainly
does not make it a "day off work" for them at all, it makes a lot of
extra work. Most teachers just want to do that .. teach...



it causes more
grief for then when it happens in lost time and catching up with missed
teaching work!...

I assume that catching up with lost teaching means that the kids also
have to attend for extra days to make up for the days when the school
was closed.


Well that is a rather impractical suggestion. They at one of my
daughters schools already do a five and a half day week.

A lot of parents complain about that too;!....
--
Tony Sayer

In article , SteveW steve@walker-
family.me.uk scribeth thus
On 08/09/2013 15:19, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 11:53:41 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Place where we go sometimes has a young lady there who's miss industry
herself, an excellent worker and just gets on with the job no problems
at all. Her guv'nor speaks very highly of her and can't praise her
enough.

But don't expect her to join in with any outside work activities she
just won't do that at all .. Shes in the witnesses ..

When I've wanted building work done that's outside my area of ability/
time, I try to get one local building firm (but they're very booked up).

All Witnesses.

They're probably booked up building Witness halls. Have you seen the
speed they build them?!

SteveW


One thing I have noticed of the few I've seen they seem to be very
simple box like buildings lacking windows, that done for security
reasons or is there another reason?..
--
Tony Sayer

But don't expect her to join in with any outside work activities she
just won't do that at all .. Shes in the witnesses ..

As a child I had a Witness family living opposite (well she and the kids
were, he wasn't but had agreed to bring the kids up as Witnesses).

The kids were normal in most ways, but they couldn't attend birthday
parties.

Yes they just don't do birthdays or Christmas come to that !...

Unfortunately for them, the eldest girl got pregnant when she was
unmarried and the younger girl got involved with a much older married
man. The boy behaved more conventionally and got married and had kids.


Wonder if their mum and dad read them parable of the prodigal daughter;-?..

SteveW


--
Tony Sayer

On 09/09/2013 08:57, tony sayer wrote:
In article , SteveW steve@walker-
family.me.uk scribeth thus
On 08/09/2013 15:19, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 11:53:41 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Place where we go sometimes has a young lady there who's miss industry
herself, an excellent worker and just gets on with the job no problems
at all. Her guv'nor speaks very highly of her and can't praise her
enough.

But don't expect her to join in with any outside work activities she
just won't do that at all .. Shes in the witnesses ..

When I've wanted building work done that's outside my area of ability/
time, I try to get one local building firm (but they're very booked up).

All Witnesses.

They're probably booked up building Witness halls. Have you seen the
speed they build them?!

SteveW


One thing I have noticed of the few I've seen they seem to be very
simple box like buildings lacking windows, that done for security
reasons or is there another reason?..

I've absolutely no idea. The only contact (other than the inevitable
calls at the door) that I've had with Witnesses was the neighbours
across the road and as kids, religion and all related to it wasn't
something that'd even cross our minds to discuss.

SteveW

En el artículo , GB
escribió:

I find it hard to believe that it makes commercial sense to have such a
high turnover.

It doesn't make commercial sense for Adam to pay them to spend all day
on Fakebook, ****ter and endlessly txting their mates.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 09/09/2013 08:45 AM, tony sayer wrote:


When I were a lad etc;!...

If you were admonished at school for anything you DID NOT come home and
complain to your dad. Reason? simple, you'd get the same chastisement
repeated again;(.

You just simply got a firm message that you had done wrong and then you
learnt that you didn't do wrong again..

It was that simple...

What's more it worked, and worked well..


Totally agree. Also I give children far more credit than today's are
credited with. Parents and teachers can occasionally get things wrong
and kids know this and will accept it, if the mistake is genuine.
Even more controversial is the feminisation of teaching. The male
teachers of the past were far more black and white and everyone knew
where they stood. Now it's all more touchy-feely, with everyone thinking
they can push the boundaries, which if course they do! Fundamentally
it's for the individual to fit into the community, not for the community
to try and be all things to all folk.

On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 12:47:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

most of them can't even see past lunchtime.

That's it in a nutshell

Those who are interested should google 'time-span of discretion'

Or, simple consequences of actions. Not really rocket science.

On 09/09/2013 09:37 Andy Cap wrote:

Now it's all more touchy-feely

Do that and you're out! Even before Savile!

Seriously, put an arm round an upset primary school child and you're on
the way to the exit.

--
F

En el artículo , SteveW steve@walker-
family.me.uk escribió:

Unfortunately for them, the eldest girl got pregnant when she was
unmarried and the younger girl got involved with a much older married
man.

A direct result of their repressive upbringing, no doubt.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Monday, September 9, 2013 8:57:34 AM UTC+1, tony sayer wrote:
They're probably booked up building Witness halls. Have you seen the
speed they build them?!
One thing I have noticed of the few I've seen they seem to be very
simple box like buildings lacking windows, that done for security
reasons or is there another reason?..

Standard simple and unostentatious plans that fit almost anywhere, can be built quickly and cheaply by volunteers; I think they can get a Hall up in about 3 days once the groundworks are done.

Owain

On 09/09/13 09:49, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 12:47:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

most of them can't even see past lunchtime.
That's it in a nutshell

Those who are interested should google 'time-span of discretion'
Or, simple consequences of actions. Not really rocket science.
No, time span of discretion is more detailed a concept than that. Its
about *how far ahead* the consequences of ones actions are thought through.

people with longer TSODs are suitable for higher level management etc.

Cf also 'a week is a long time in politics' :-)


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

It's a daft question, really. Some jobs are a vocation - missionary,
teacher, doctor, etc. But nobody has a vocation to be an electrician.

No wonder manual skills are so much looked down on in the UK.

Balls. Who has a "vocation" to be an accountant or an IT consultant or a
TV sound bloke or whatever?

Balls to you.

Collins GEM English Dictionary
vocation n. occupation that someone feels called to; profession or trade.
˜vocational adj. directed towards a particular profession or trade.

So it could equally apply to an engine driver. Or astronaut.

It was at one time applied to those who chose a 'noble' job above material
reward. But both teachers and doctors are well paid these days.

--
*I must always remember that I'm unique, just like everyone else. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they think
they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That, and the
short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,


So they do their lesson plans, prep and other paperwork in lesson time?

No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how over-worked
they are. ;-)

--
*Save a tree, eat a beaver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
F news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 18:53 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
F news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,

You're correct: *all* teachers don't. But the vast majority do. As in
all walks of life it's possible to find some dross.

Just putting in hours doesn't make someone good at their job.

I didn't say that it did. I was replying to your assertion that 'the
myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching ones
is just that'.

Which part of 'all' did you find it impossible to understand?

--
*I don't have a license to kill, but I do have a learner's permit.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they think
they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That, and the
short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,


When U get a moment Dave come up here and argue that with SWMBO and some
of her colleagues;!...

No - I'll send my brother. He taught maths for over 30 years. And never
once did any school work in the holidays - except when the entire staff
was called in for a day (or whatever) just before the end. Nor did he do
any work at home. He did run a few extra curriculum activities at some
parts of his career - but adding in the time spent of these still didn't
add up to working the number of hours per year most in full time work did.

However, he was rather poorly paid for most of his working life.

--
*Why is the time of day with the slowest traffic called rush hour?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 20:32:26 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

It's a daft question, really. Some jobs are a vocation -
missionary, teacher, doctor, etc. But nobody has a vocation to be
an electrician.

No wonder manual skills are so much looked down on in the UK.

Balls. Who has a "vocation" to be an accountant or an IT consultant or
a TV sound bloke or whatever?

Indeed. Teacher, doctor - vocation my arse. They want more money, the
"vocation" notion goes straight out the window.

I can see teaching or medicine as being a vocation, along with being a
vet or a priest or similar. But that's about it. To associate "not a
vocation" with manual work only is just strange.

Would you like to try that again? I don't understand what you mean.

--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
SteveW wrote:
Well it's half myth, half truth. I have four teachers in my family, one
of whom is head of department and another is deputy head (all at
secondary schools). Some do indeed do many hours of preparation and
marking in the evenings and at weekends, others have never been seen to
do anything at all outside school hours, except for supervising school
trips abroad.

Quite. I have several teachers in my family and friends and that describes
things perfectly.

--
*Great groups from little icons grow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time - think
again.

Certainly. School hours are generally 6 per day.

--
*When it rains, why don't sheep shrink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

It was at one time applied to those who chose a 'noble' job above material
reward. But both teachers and doctors are well paid these days.

Teachers don't think so; they're planning to go on strike.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23970281

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:52:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time - think
again.

Certainly. School hours are generally 6 per day.

Staff hours aren't. Arrive at 8, lucky to leave by 4. Compulsory staff
briefing at 0815.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:39:21 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they
think they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That,
and the short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual
teaching ones is just that,


When U get a moment Dave come up here and argue that with SWMBO and
some of her colleagues;!...

No - I'll send my brother. He taught maths for over 30 years. And never
once did any school work in the holidays - except when the entire staff
was called in for a day (or whatever) just before the end. Nor did he do
any work at home. He did run a few extra curriculum activities at some
parts of his career - but adding in the time spent of these still didn't
add up to working the number of hours per year most in full time work
did.

However, he was rather poorly paid for most of his working life.

Perhaps that's the Plowman family work ethic...



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 09/09/2013 12:33 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
F news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 18:53 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
F news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,

You're correct: *all* teachers don't. But the vast majority do. As in
all walks of life it's possible to find some dross.

Just putting in hours doesn't make someone good at their job.

I didn't say that it did. I was replying to your assertion that 'the
myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching ones
is just that'.

Which part of 'all' did you find it impossible to understand?

Which part of my reply did you not understand?

Do you ever get any more than a few words into a thread without wanting
to start an argument?

--
F

On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 12:58:41 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

It was at one time applied to those who chose a 'noble' job above
material reward.

That would be my interpretation of "vocation".

But both teachers and doctors are well paid these days.

Teachers don't think so; they're planning to go on strike.

What is the basic pay of a secondary school teacher with say 10 years
experience? If it's above about £24k gross they are being paid above
the national average.

--
Cheers
Dave.