On Monday 09 September 2013 12:31 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they
think they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That, and
the short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,


So they do their lesson plans, prep and other paperwork in lesson time?

No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how over-worked
they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
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On Sunday, September 8, 2013 10:38:59 PM UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 08/09/2013 21:46, SteveW wrote:

I must admit I was (and still am to an extent, although much less so) a
very faddy eater. It's not that I dislike the taste of most foods, but
certain textures and any hot food that has cooled too much make me
heave. In my primary school days, the meals were poor quality and cooked
off-site, so often fatty, chewy meat and half cold, with congealed
gravy. Being forced to eat it made my life hell, made approaching dinner
times something to dread and put me off most foods for the next 20
years. The number of dinnertimes I spent stuck at the table while
everyone else was out playing, crying my eyes out as some sadistic
dinnerlady insisted I eat it all are uncountable. If I'd been allowed to
leave what I intensely disliked (even if it meant no pudding), my
primary school life would have been a whole lot better and I'd have
eaten a much wider selection of food in the following decades.

I agree completely. Except time has told me I'm not that faddy - I'll
eat about half what is on any restaurant anywhere in the world. Just not
the half the school or my mother gave me.

What was it about primary schools that made them fixate on getting children to eat everything on their plate? Actually it wasn't much of a sanction as far as I was concerned to refuse you pudding unless you'd eaten the rest, since it was often the pudding I really disliked. I'm sure it was just as much a problem for theschool as for me, since there had to be a teacher supervising those of us who hadn't eaten their food - and so missing out on whatever else they'd have done - but it seemed to be impossible to conceive of actually allowing us to choose what was put on our plates; the only way out of the impasse was to get our mothers to give us packed lunches...
Actually hospital food when I went in to have my tonsils removed was if anything even worse - the nurse seemed to like asking us what choice we wanted so she could arrange that we didn't get it...

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they think
they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That, and the
short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,


When U get a moment Dave come up here and argue that with SWMBO and some
of her colleagues;!...

No - I'll send my brother. He taught maths for over 30 years. And never
once did any school work in the holidays - except when the entire staff
was called in for a day (or whatever) just before the end. Nor did he do
any work at home. He did run a few extra curriculum activities at some
parts of his career - but adding in the time spent of these still didn't
add up to working the number of hours per year most in full time work did.


I think Dave this might have been sometime ago things have changed these
days..

Sure there are some lazy sods around but not the ones she knows!...


However, he was rather poorly paid for most of his working life.


--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:52:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time - think
again.

Certainly. School hours are generally 6 per day.

Staff hours aren't. Arrive at 8, lucky to leave by 4. Compulsory staff
briefing at 0815.

That's still only 7 hours.

--
*Plagiarism saves time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
F news@nowhere wrote:
On 09/09/2013 12:33 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , F
news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 18:53 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , F
news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual
teaching ones is just that,

You're correct: *all* teachers don't. But the vast majority do. As
in all walks of life it's possible to find some dross.

Just putting in hours doesn't make someone good at their job.

I didn't say that it did. I was replying to your assertion that 'the
myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that'.

Which part of 'all' did you find it impossible to understand?

Which part of my reply did you not understand?

Do you ever get any more than a few words into a thread without wanting
to start an argument?

What it is about the spouses of teachers?

Did it ever occur to you that those who have to spend ages extra to do a
job others manage just fine within the allotted hours might just *not* be
that good at their job?

--
*Rehab is for quitters.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how over-worked
they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...


Quite. But then, what on earth are you spending ages on preparing for the
next day's work? Ie, what is so different from what you used the year
before?

--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
F news@nowhere wrote:
On 09/09/2013 12:33 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , F
news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 18:53 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , F
news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual
teaching ones is just that,

You're correct: *all* teachers don't. But the vast majority do. As
in all walks of life it's possible to find some dross.

Just putting in hours doesn't make someone good at their job.

I didn't say that it did. I was replying to your assertion that 'the
myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that'.

Which part of 'all' did you find it impossible to understand?

Which part of my reply did you not understand?

Do you ever get any more than a few words into a thread without wanting
to start an argument?

What it is about the spouses of teachers?

Did it ever occur to you that those who have to spend ages extra to do a
job others manage just fine within the allotted hours might just *not* be
that good at their job?

or it might be that the "allotted hours don't exist."

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how over-worked
they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...


Quite. But then, what on earth are you spending ages on preparing for the
next day's work? Ie, what is so different from what you used the year
before?

you obviously haven't noticed how Westminster keep moving goal posts.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

GB wrote:
On 08/09/2013 19:26, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:

I don't think a mistake is the same thing as a lie, is it? Except
that it's a mistake to tell a lie rather than be honest...

If he'd said he didn't put grommets on because of something or
other, some reason - even if it wasn't a good one, presumably ARW
would have explained why that was or wasn't a good idea.

I suspect that he's tried that in the past, and Adam's reaction was to
fly into a rage. If not Adam, somebody else he's worked for.




you are effectively training him not to admit his mistakes.

If he's old enough to be an apprentice, he should already understand
the different between truth, lies and mistakes.

Don't get me wrong. I entirely agree with you that the apprentice was
completely wrong to lie. However, he did so because he's been trained
that a lie, however forlorn a hope, is better than telling the truth.

I know that the word 'trained' is going to get your goat. Sorry. But
that's how this kid's life has worked out.

I did not fly into a rage in the morning when he did not put the grommets on
in a different flat, no bollockings or anything like that. He knows to to
use grommets. He deliberately chose not to. And when he decided not to use
grommets in the afternoon he got a bollocking - and that was for saying he
had fitted them even though I gave him a second chance to fit them. He then
got another bollocking for only putting half the grommets on after the first
bollocking.

Do you see? I gave him a nice chance to sort out the grommets and he chose
to take the ****.

--
Adam

On Monday 09 September 2013 17:54 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how
over-worked they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...


Quite. But then, what on earth are you spending ages on preparing for the
next day's work? Ie, what is so different from what you used the year
before?


Ofsted still want their paperwork and the DofEd are constantly fiddling with
the curriculum and procedures.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

What it is about the spouses of teachers?

I'm one. Also son and grandson x 2 of and I'm perfectly normal:-)

Did it ever occur to you that those who have to spend ages extra to do a
job others manage just fine within the allotted hours might just *not* be
that good at their job?

Yes. Or having to work very hard to meet parental expectations with
inadequate material.


--
Tim Lamb

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Remember the 36 year old apprentice? He passed all his exams but
after a year on the tools he was no better than when he started. He
could not be left on his own unless it was simple tasks and you were
constantly covering old ground eg if he had not wired a timed fan up
for 2 months then you would have to show him how to do it again.

So he was learning by rote, rather than understanding what he was
doing.

Indeed. And not going any further forward in his abilities as an
electrician. He gave 120% but was never going to get there. I believe I
described him as useless **** when I first mentioned him, and they were my
first impressions of him when I met him on site.

I do however wish him the best of luck in whatever job he ends up with. He
will always try his best and if he gets a job that matches his abilities he
will make an excellent employee.

--
Adam

En el artículo , Tim Lamb
escribió:

Yes. Or having to work very hard to meet parental expectations with
inadequate material.

Ouch. :-)

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 09/09/2013 16:12, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 09 September 2013 12:31 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they
think they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That, and
the short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that,


So they do their lesson plans, prep and other paperwork in lesson time?

No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how over-worked
they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...


Maximum teaching time = 1140 hours/annum (assuming no free periods when
kids are attending)

Working time in a normal job (37hr/week with 5 weeks paid holiday) =
1702 hours/annum

Difference for marking and lesson preparation = 562 hours or equivalent
to 15 weeks/annum. This leaves 5 weeks paid holiday + bank holidays and
no weekend working.

--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

Bob Eager wrote:

Quite. SWTNFI is a teacher. She has been working 11 hour days for the
past three weeks preparing for start of term tomorrow, then coming home
and working in the evenings. She is working at the desk opposite (at
home) right now.


Why? Is she crap at what she does.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 18:26:46 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Quite. But then, what on earth are you spending ages on preparing
for
the next day's work? Ie, what is so different from what you used
the
year before?

Ofsted still want their paperwork and the DofEd are constantly fiddling
with the curriculum and procedures.

And the materials required for the lessons need to be prepared/made
available/ordered.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 17:49:49 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time -

think again.

Certainly. School hours are generally 6 per day.

Staff hours aren't. Arrive at 8, lucky to leave by 4. Compulsory
staff
briefing at 0815.

That's still only 7 hours.

Assuming an hour for lunch. Many schools only have 45 min lunch
breaks these days. A teacher will be lucky to get 30 mins by the time
they have sorted out the classroom and prepared it the work for the
next lesson.

7 working hours is same as a normal 9-5er and still longer than the 6
quoted above.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 01:04:10 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

What about something to weed out those without a clue and with no
interest. Even something simple such as forewarning them they will
be required to wire up a plug during the interview. A few will know
how to anyway - that's a good start, ...

These days? With everything coming with moulded on plugs for the last
20+ years.

... and the others will need to find out how to before the interview -
showing some ability to learn and remember, some dexterity with simple tools, etc.

I agree that something like that could be a very useful indicator of
a candidates aptitude and initiative.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:27:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Balls. Who has a "vocation" to be an accountant or an IT consultant or
a TV sound bloke or whatever?

Balls to you.

Collins GEM English Dictionary vocation n. occupation that someone
feels called to; profession or trade.

Exactly.

Who ever felt "called" to be an accountant? Nobody.

˜vocational adj. directed towards a particular profession or trade.

And that's vocational. As in "vocational qualification". Different thing.

So it could equally apply to an engine driver. Or astronaut.

Yes, it could.

It was at one time applied to those who chose a 'noble' job above
material reward.

Exactly.

But both teachers and doctors are well paid these days.

And that correlates with fish prices how?

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:44:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

It's a daft question, really. Some jobs are a vocation -
missionary, teacher, doctor, etc. But nobody has a vocation to be
an electrician.

No wonder manual skills are so much looked down on in the UK.

Balls. Who has a "vocation" to be an accountant or an IT consultant
or a TV sound bloke or whatever?

Indeed. Teacher, doctor - vocation my arse. They want more money, the
"vocation" notion goes straight out the window.

I can see teaching or medicine as being a vocation, along with being a
vet or a priest or similar. But that's about it. To associate "not a
vocation" with manual work only is just strange.

Would you like to try that again? I don't understand what you mean.

We noticed.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 09:57:12 +0100, F wrote:

Seriously, put an arm round an upset primary school child and you're on
the way to the exit.

Our primary school took it into its head that any of the teaching
staff couldn't apply the sun creme that the parents had been asked to
send in with their children. Need less to say the Reception Class
classroom got covered... and a number of other children got in a
right mess.

It's not often I take issue with things but this one got my goat,
what happened to "in loco parentis" and "duty of care"? And if any of
the teaching staff are into kiddie fiddling what does that say about
the LEA's vetting procedures/policies? Just use the normal
procedures, never be alone with a child, have another adult present
etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
writes:
Actually hospital food when I went in to have my tonsils removed was if anything even worse - the nurse seemed to like asking us what choice we wanted so she could arrange that we didn't get it...

The main thing I remember was having to chew lots of antiseptic chewing
gum, which fortunately I quite liked, and would otherwise never have
been allowed.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 01:04:10 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

What about something to weed out those without a clue and with no
interest. Even something simple such as forewarning them they will
be required to wire up a plug during the interview. A few will know
how to anyway - that's a good start, ...

These days? With everything coming with moulded on plugs for the last
20+ years.

... and the others will need to find out how to before the interview
-
showing some ability to learn and remember, some dexterity with
simple tools, etc.

I agree that something like that could be a very useful indicator of
a candidates aptitude and initiative.

And you would expect that someone who has passed CDT/DT or whatever it is
called these days can use a tool other than a mobile phone.

I heard about this place opening today on the radio.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-24018246

I like the idea.

--
Adam

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:52:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time - think
again.

Certainly. School hours are generally 6 per day.

Staff hours aren't. Arrive at 8, lucky to leave by 4. Compulsory staff
briefing at 0815.

So if they're not lucky they're at the school for 8 hours?
--
bert

On 09/09/2013 18:25, ARW wrote:

I did not fly into a rage in the morning when he did not put the grommets on
in a different flat, no bollockings or anything like that. He knows to to
use grommets. He deliberately chose not to. And when he decided not to use
grommets in the afternoon he got a bollocking - and that was for saying he
had fitted them even though I gave him a second chance to fit them. He then
got another bollocking for only putting half the grommets on after the first
bollocking.

That's really weird. Did you get to the bottom of what he had against
fitting grommets?



Do you see? I gave him a nice chance to sort out the grommets and he chose
to take the ****.

I do see, but I'm no nearer understanding why? If he just wanted to quit
the job, he could have done that, ie not turned up in the morning.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 15:37:24 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 12:58:41 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

It was at one time applied to those who chose a 'noble' job above
material reward.

That would be my interpretation of "vocation".

But both teachers and doctors are well paid these days.

Teachers don't think so; they're planning to go on strike.

What is the basic pay of a secondary school teacher with say 10 years
experience? If it's above about £24k gross they are being paid above the
national average.

Would that be above the national average for someone with years of
training and 10 years' experience?


--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 16:12:50 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Monday 09 September 2013 12:31 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in
uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they
think they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That,
and the short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual
teaching ones is just that,


So they do their lesson plans, prep and other paperwork in lesson
time?

No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how
over-worked they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...

And very, very few in a secondary school day. Too expensive.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 19:43:18 +0100, soup wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:

Quite. SWTNFI is a teacher. She has been working 11 hour days for the
past three weeks preparing for start of term tomorrow, then coming home
and working in the evenings. She is working at the desk opposite (at
home) right now.


Why? Is she crap at what she does.

Don't be stupid. She has actually won teaching awards, as it happens.
It's the sheer volume of work.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 20:27:29 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

What is the basic pay of a secondary school teacher with say 10 years
experience? If it's above about £24k gross they are being paid above
the national average.

Would that be above the national average for someone with years of
training and 10 years' experience?

It would be the national average for everybody. That's the thing about
the national average. It's the average of the nation.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 21:17:30 +0100, GB wrote:

I did not fly into a rage in the morning when he did not put the
grommets on in a different flat, no bollockings or anything like that.
He knows to to use grommets. He deliberately chose not to. And when he
decided not to use grommets in the afternoon he got a bollocking - and
that was for saying he had fitted them even though I gave him a second
chance to fit them. He then got another bollocking for only putting
half the grommets on after the first bollocking.

That's really weird. Did you get to the bottom of what he had against
fitting grommets?

Probably just the "remembering to do it" bit. Then the "summoning up the
effort to redo everything to retro-fit them" bit.

Charitably, I wonder if there was also an element of "what's the point
anyway?" which could have been better explained?

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 19:22:33 +0100, alan wrote:

On 09/09/2013 16:12, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 09 September 2013 12:31 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in
uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in
uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they
think they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That,
and the short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual
teaching ones is just that,


So they do their lesson plans, prep and other paperwork in lesson
time?

No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how
over-worked they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...


Maximum teaching time = 1140 hours/annum (assuming no free periods when
kids are attending)

Working time in a normal job (37hr/week with 5 weeks paid holiday) =
1702 hours/annum

Difference for marking and lesson preparation = 562 hours or equivalent
to 15 weeks/annum. This leaves 5 weeks paid holiday + bank holidays and
no weekend working.

You really don't have a clue, do you?



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 17:49:49 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:52:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time -
think again.

Certainly. School hours are generally 6 per day.

Staff hours aren't. Arrive at 8, lucky to leave by 4. Compulsory staff
briefing at 0815.

That's still only 7 hours.

But not the 6 you claimed.

Anyway, 8 hours. You think there's time for lunch breaks?



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
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*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 09/09/2013 20:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 09:57:12 +0100, F wrote:

Seriously, put an arm round an upset primary school child and you're on
the way to the exit.

Our primary school took it into its head that any of the teaching
staff couldn't apply the sun creme that the parents had been asked to
send in with their children. Need less to say the Reception Class
classroom got covered... and a number of other children got in a
right mess.

It's not often I take issue with things but this one got my goat,
what happened to "in loco parentis" and "duty of care"? And if any of
the teaching staff are into kiddie fiddling what does that say about
the LEA's vetting procedures/policies? Just use the normal
procedures, never be alone with a child, have another adult present
etc.

I'm glad to say that the school my children attend does allow the staff
to give children a cuddle when they are upset. I'd hate for that to be
stopped.

SteveW

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 20:58:36 +0100, bert wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 12:52:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
And if you think they only work 8 hours a day during term time -
think again.

Certainly. School hours are generally 6 per day.

Staff hours aren't. Arrive at 8, lucky to leave by 4. Compulsory staff
briefing at 0815.

So if they're not lucky they're at the school for 8 hours?

And then ther's all the marking, because sure as hell there isn't time
during the school day.



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On 09/09/2013 20:21, Dave Liquorice wrote:
These days? With everything coming with moulded on plugs for the last
20+ years.

Well, quite. My son is a hardware engineer in a data centre; he'll have
put lots of things together, but I'm pretty sure he's never had to put a
plug on a flex.

Andy

On 09/09/2013 17:52 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
F news@nowhere wrote:
On 09/09/2013 12:33 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , F
news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 18:53 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article , F
news@nowhere wrote:
On 08/09/2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual
teaching ones is just that,

You're correct: *all* teachers don't. But the vast majority do. As
in all walks of life it's possible to find some dross.

Just putting in hours doesn't make someone good at their job.

I didn't say that it did. I was replying to your assertion that 'the
myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual teaching
ones is just that'.

Which part of 'all' did you find it impossible to understand?

Which part of my reply did you not understand?

Do you ever get any more than a few words into a thread without wanting
to start an argument?

What it is about the spouses of teachers?

Still looking to argue...

What is it about you that you make wholly inaccurate assumptions?

I taught for 35 years, my 'spouse' taught for 20 years. I know what I'm
talking about from first-hand experience.

Did it ever occur to you that those who have to spend ages extra to do a
job others manage just fine within the allotted hours might just *not* be
that good at their job?

Did it ever occur to you that those who manage just fine within the
allotted time only appear to do so? Did it ever occur to you that they
may be doing a lousy job? Did it ever occur to you that those who spend
ages extra do so to provide an excellent education for pupils who only
get one chance? Screw up one day for them and they'll never get that day
back.

--
F

In message , Mike Tomlinson
writes
En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

It was at one time applied to those who chose a 'noble' job above material
reward. But both teachers and doctors are well paid these days.

Teachers don't think so; they're planning to go on strike.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23970281

Some teachers union leaders might be intent on going on strike but the
majority won't even bother to vote.
--
bert

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 20:30:27 +0000, Adrian wrote:

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 20:27:29 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

What is the basic pay of a secondary school teacher with say 10 years
experience? If it's above about £24k gross they are being paid above
the national average.

Would that be above the national average for someone with years of
training and 10 years' experience?

It would be the national average for everybody. That's the thing about
the national average. It's the average of the nation.

Exactly, so his point is meaningless.


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On 09/09/2013 21:32 Bob Eager wrote:

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 19:22:33 +0100, alan wrote:

On 09/09/2013 16:12, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 09 September 2013 12:31 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in
uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On Sunday 08 September 2013 15:32 Dave Plowman (News) wrote in
uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2013 15:08:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Plenty of teachers just fall into the job because it's one they
think they understand - after all everyone goes to school. That,
and the short hours, holidays and pension.

I'm not sure what short hours they would be.

The myth that all teachers work many hours in excess of actual
teaching ones is just that,


So they do their lesson plans, prep and other paperwork in lesson
time?

No - they use their spare periods and lunch breaks etc to do this -
instead of moaning with their co-workers ad nauseam about how
over-worked they are. ;-)


What spare periods? I am not aware of any in a primary school day...


Maximum teaching time = 1140 hours/annum (assuming no free periods when
kids are attending)

Working time in a normal job (37hr/week with 5 weeks paid holiday) =
1702 hours/annum

Difference for marking and lesson preparation = 562 hours or equivalent
to 15 weeks/annum. This leaves 5 weeks paid holiday + bank holidays and
no weekend working.

You really don't have a clue, do you?

He hasn't, but he's been to school so he thinks he does...

--
F

On Mon, 09 Sep 2013 21:40:24 +0100, bert wrote:

Teachers don't think so; they're planning to go on strike.

Some teachers union leaders might be intent on going on strike but the
majority won't even bother to vote.

Tacit acceptance of a strike.

Don't want to strike? Vote no. It's not hard.