On 28/12/2011 19:47, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message ,
lid writes

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel
wrote:

"Steve Walker" wrote in
message ...
On 28/12/2011 07:29, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

"Voting" was by show of hands with heavies in the
crowd to make sure everyone's hand went up.

You made that up.

No he didn't. That was one of the reasons for changing to postal
voting.

"heavies in the crowd" **** off.

Whether there were actual heavies there, drivel, is beside the
point. The fact is, as we know from watching the telly, that the
vote was show of hands, done, therefore, in public.

And if over 50% the hands won. Simple. Cameron is ruling and only
about 20% of those eligible to vote voted for him.

snip drivel

No-one vote for Cameron to rule.

Uh!

The UK system does not elect a Prime Minister. It elects individual MPs
and only by convention does the leader of the party with the most MPs
receive the request to form a government. ISTR that, in theory (and
possibly in practice a couple of times), the monarch can choose anyone -
even someone who has not been elected as an MP.

SteveW

On 23/12/2011 22:00, Tim wrote:
Andy wrote:
On 23/12/2011 10:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed
the power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient.
Drive slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good
results. As, of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up
and drive it a bit harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a
motorway hill - and it becomes far less economical than a conventional
car. As well as being a pain in the arse to drive.


You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.

No I'm not. If you run an engine at a steady speed it produces a given
maximum amount of power. That can either be used to charge a battery or
drive the vehicle direct. If it is set to provide the maximum power
required for driving the vehicle direct, it will be horribly inefficient
when that maximum power isn't needed, if the battery is full.

Can't you just turn the IC engine off and run on the batteries for a bit
- then turn it back on for a recharge?


The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Generator sets are horribly inefficient at low power outputs. If they were
very efficient at all times everywhere would generate their own
electricity.

Regeneration recovers potential and kinetic energy and stores it in
the battery.

Must be fiendishly complex, heavy and expensive.
It is an attempt to cover all bases.

Like all these things it is designed to get round US emission regulations.
With all the usual hype about performance and economy which is proved to
be a lie in practice.


That may well be true. If they were really aimed at our market they'd
use diesels with F-off big turbochargers (lag not being an issue) instead of petrol.

Andy

They might, except, if cars don't burn petrol, what do they do with the
lighter fractions of oil? It may be an urban myth but I believe that when
oil was first extracted, the lighter fractions were burnt off as they were
considered too volatile and dangerous.

Tom

Yup. In the early days of oil production and refining, petrol was a
waste product. These days it is obviously not and by cracking, the yield
of lighter fractions is increased as a percentage.

SteveW

On 23/12/2011 14:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.
The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Using a highly taxed fuel to generate electricity? Very logical.

I've wondered about this. If you have an electric vehicle and charge it
at home using a generator, then you can use untaxed fuel. Should this
not be the case even if the vehicle carries its own generator - possibly
requiring two batteries, one in use and one charging, so that the
vehicle in never being driven by the engine. If this is not the case,
then shouldn't electric vehicles be taxed for the fuel used in power
stations to charge them?

SteveW

On 21/12/2011 09:56, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Bill wrote:
Because you can put energy back into them when braking,
And how much energy will that provide? The energy wasted when braking is
very small. Most fuel is used combating rolling resistance and wind
resistance. London is not the sort of place where buses drop down long
hills on their brakes.

It's well worth doing on a city bus. Older ones used a flywheel to part
brake the vehicle, then used that energy to help start it off. A hybrid is
simply a more modern interpration of the same idea. Tube trains feed power
back to the generator when braking too. So the same idea.

If the driver anticipates properly very little energy is wasted in
braking for traffic conditions. Better to start a bonus scheme where the
driver's pay is linked to his fuel consumption. That's the scheme all
the self-employed are on, and believe me it works.

The main purpose of the average London bus driver is to up end any elderly
passengers making their way to the exit. That's where they get points from.

Take a look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5TTA4f7Q3E

You may as well listen all the way through, but the most relevant part
is from around 4:09

SteveW

On Dec 28, 6:44*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Dec 28, 1:22 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Doctor Drivel
?@?.? scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel
scribeth thus
"dennis@home" wrote in message
straweb.com...
"funkyoldcortina" wrote in message
...
That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed
you
can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to
keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.
Well that's plain rubbish.
If the electric motor is doing the work then it has to get its energy
from
somewhere.
It can't be the battery or it would go flat.
Engine braking and wheel braking put energy back into the battery
reclaiming
otherwise wasted energy. *The Prius is old hat now - 1997. *The Volt and
the
new Volt, Lotus/Jaguar designs are the way now.
Kinetic energy is best reclaimed using supercapacitors -
electric trains use
these.
Which ones, any in the UK?...
In Germany and experimental in UK. *Some have the capacitor bank on the side
of the track rather that on the train.
And just how many kilowatts hours does one of they hold then?..
think watt seconds.

They are power factor correction devices.

The trains run off AC. capacitors store DC only..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They would hardly be power factor correction devices mounted on the
trackside.

Why not?

Its a lot better than in the trains..they are heavy..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They would be close to the motors to reduce current transferred
through the pantograph.

harry wrote:
On Dec 28, 6:44 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Dec 28, 1:22 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Doctor Drivel
?@?.? scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel
scribeth thus
"dennis@home" wrote in message
b.com...
"funkyoldcortina" wrote in message
...
That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed
you
can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to
keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.
Well that's plain rubbish.
If the electric motor is doing the work then it has to get its energy
from
somewhere.
It can't be the battery or it would go flat.
Engine braking and wheel braking put energy back into the battery
reclaiming
otherwise wasted energy. The Prius is old hat now - 1997. The Volt and
the
new Volt, Lotus/Jaguar designs are the way now.
Kinetic energy is best reclaimed using supercapacitors -
electric trains use
these.
Which ones, any in the UK?...
In Germany and experimental in UK. Some have the capacitor bank on the side
of the track rather that on the train.
And just how many kilowatts hours does one of they hold then?..
think watt seconds.
They are power factor correction devices.
The trains run off AC. capacitors store DC only..- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
They would hardly be power factor correction devices mounted on the
trackside.
Why not?

Its a lot better than in the trains..they are heavy..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They would be close to the motors to reduce current transferred
through the pantograph.
That is predicated on you thinking they are batteries there to assist
acceleration.

They are not. They are PF correctors there to reduce losses down the
overhead wires.

On Dec 28, 7:48*pm, hugh ] wrote:
In message ,
lid writes

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Unless, as was the case in the motor industry in the 60s the unions
have *been infiltrated by communists whose avowed intent is to ruin
the company.

This half-wit sucked in and still does, the Reds under the bed nonsense
spouted by the Daily Mail, et al. *Since the fall of the USSR there has
been no evidence that anything ever existed.

The USSR was still going strong in the 60s. You really should learn to
think before you type.
--
hugh

Mind you, since the demise of the USSR, the rich have been trying to
return to a Victorian society, now that they perceive the chance of
workers revolution has receded. ie, grab all the money and ********
to the rest of us.

On Dec 28, 8:04*pm, John Williamson
wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

In Germany and experimental in UK. *Some have the capacitor bank
on the side
of the track rather that on the train.
And just how many kilowatts hours does one of they hold then?..
think watt seconds.

They are power factor correction devices.

The trains run off AC. capacitors store DC only..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They would hardly be power factor correction devices mounted on the
trackside.

Why not?

Its a lot better than in the trains..they are heavy..

..and take up passenger space. and are easy to maintain on the trackside.

They can only be used to partially correct the power factor (i.e. The
phase relationship between current and voltage) over a single mains
cycle when sited at the trackside. Unless you want to redesign the
entire rail power distribution network to use DC, in which case they
could hold a few seconds of reserve power.

To use supercapacitors as energy storage devices using the current rail
power infrastructure, they need to be on the train, and the train motors
need to run off DC, either directly or through an inverter. Even then, a
few seconds is all they'd be useful for, so they could be used for
something like storing the energy released by slowing down and stopping
for use while accelerating to operating speed. This would be handy as a
help in coping with the extra weight of the capacitors and the extra
control gear needed.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The weight of the on board capacitors would in itself be an energy
store (kinetic energy).

On Dec 29, 1:03*am, Steve Walker -
family.me.uk wrote:
On 23/12/2011 14:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In ,
* * Doctor *wrote:
You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.
The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. *It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Using a highly taxed fuel to generate electricity? Very logical.

I've wondered about this. If you have an electric vehicle and charge it
at home using a generator, then you can use untaxed fuel. Should this
not be the case even if the vehicle carries its own generator - possibly
requiring two batteries, one in use and one charging, so that the
vehicle in never being driven by the engine. If this is not the case,
then shouldn't electric vehicles be taxed for the fuel used in power
stations to charge them?

SteveW

Eventually they will be. As soon as some method of doing it can be
devised and it becomes viable.
Meanwhile the gov. ideally wants everyone to drive electric cars.
I could defeat them with my solar panels.

On Dec 29, 9:29*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Dec 28, 6:44 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Dec 28, 1:22 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Doctor Drivel
?@?.? scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel
scribeth thus
"dennis@home" wrote in message
news:4ef614ff$0$1620$c3e8da3$40cdd511@news .astraweb.com...
"funkyoldcortina" wrote in message
...
That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed
you
can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to
keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.
Well that's plain rubbish.
If the electric motor is doing the work then it has to get its energy
from
somewhere.
It can't be the battery or it would go flat.
Engine braking and wheel braking put energy back into the battery
reclaiming
otherwise wasted energy. *The Prius is old hat now - 1997. *The Volt and
the
new Volt, Lotus/Jaguar designs are the way now.
Kinetic energy is best reclaimed using supercapacitors -
electric trains use
these.
Which ones, any in the UK?...
In Germany and experimental in UK. *Some have the capacitor bank on the side
of the track rather that on the train.
And just how many kilowatts hours does one of they hold then?..
think watt seconds.
They are power factor correction devices.
The trains run off AC. capacitors store DC only..- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
They would hardly be power factor correction devices mounted on the
trackside.
Why not?

Its a lot better than in the trains..they are heavy..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They would be close to the motors to reduce current transferred
through the pantograph.

That is predicated on you thinking they are batteries there to assist
acceleration.

They are not. They are PF correctors there to reduce losses down the
overhead wires.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So that means they would have to be on the loco.
ie, always close to the motor.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:56:29 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

He's a ****wit who doesn't think things through.

This plantpot thinks all tunnels will flood and kill millions. No idea
whatsoever. He thinks all tunnels flood.

Ummm.... without pumping out continuously, most will, you cretin.

Another ****wit plantpot.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 23:31:30 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Unless, as was the case in the motor industry in the 60s the unions have
been infiltrated by communists whose avowed intent is to ruin the
company.

Bingo!

Oh no! Another brainwashed Daily Mail reading plantpot.

I take it you've never been in a union? The idea that a few trouble makers
can 'lead' the majority like sheep is laughable.

In the right places, in the right circumstances, a lever can move the
world. I know for a fact that troublemakers were infiltrating unions
up where I was - I knew them, I worked with them, I despised them.

And they mever made any impact. Duh!

wrote in message
...

Which is rather long-winded way of saying what I've believed for
decades - that democracy is a sham

Tony Benn never meant that at all.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 23/12/2011 14:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor wrote:
You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.
The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Using a highly taxed fuel to generate electricity? Very logical.

I've wondered about this. If you have an electric vehicle and charge it at
home using a generator, then you can use untaxed fuel.

Charging from the mains is cheaper.

then shouldn't electric vehicles be taxed for the fuel used in power
stations to charge them?

We wait and see.

harry wrote:
On Dec 28, 7:48 pm, hugh ] wrote:
In message ,
lid writes

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
Unless, as was the case in the motor industry in the 60s the unions
have been infiltrated by communists whose avowed intent is to ruin
the company.
This half-wit sucked in and still does, the Reds under the bed nonsense
spouted by the Daily Mail, et al. Since the fall of the USSR there has
been no evidence that anything ever existed.
The USSR was still going strong in the 60s. You really should learn to
think before you type.
--
hugh

Mind you, since the demise of the USSR, the rich have been trying to
return to a Victorian society, now that they perceive the chance of
workers revolution has receded. ie, grab all the money and ********
to the rest of us.

Golly.

But harry, that is precisely the effect of your solar panels!

grab the money and ******** to the rest of us!

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

But harry, that is precisely the effect of your solar panels!

grab the money and ******** to the rest of us!

Since when have you ever cared about anyone except yourself?

In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
I take it you've never been in a union? The idea that a few trouble
makers can 'lead' the majority like sheep is laughable.

I was in Coventry in the 60s. I witnessed it at first hand. You are
extremely naive in your views on what agitators can achieve.

You 'witnessed' it from inside the union? If so, why didn't you do
something about it?

If from outside, your views will just be that of any other so called
observer like the meja.

However, the world is a very different place from the '60s. Mass
communication has moved on since then.

--
*If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
A bit like having ~15% of the workforce voting for a strike and calling
everyone out.


"Voting" was by show of hands with heavies in the
crowd to make sure everyone's hand went up.

Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I take it you've never been in a union? The idea that a few trouble
makers can 'lead' the majority like sheep is laughable.

It is not.

Then perhaps you'd explain why the now requirement for postal ballots has
made no difference? And never did?

--
*The statement above is false

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Or anyone who enjoys driving.

If you enjoy FAST driving get a Tesla.

Oh indeed. Provided your idea of fast driving is in very short bursts. As
like any other electric car make high demands of it and the range is
laughable.

A Vauxhall Ampera will rock your
socks off and do it silently and seamlessly. Zooooooooooooooom

Only if you have more money than sense. Or just theorise about such things
as you.

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
harry wrote:
I take it you've never been in a union? The idea that a few trouble
makers can 'lead' the majority like sheep is laughable.


The "no" voters tend just not to vote. That's when the problem arises.

Given everything these days is done by postal voting, that's up to them.

--
*Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
I take it you've never been in a union? The idea that a few trouble
makers can 'lead' the majority like sheep is laughable.


it even happened in the ABS!

Because a vote went against what you wanted?

--
*60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Or anyone who enjoys driving.

If you enjoy FAST driving get a Tesla.

Oh indeed.

Yes indeed.

Provided your idea of fast driving is in very short bursts.

Do you go 125mph for hours on end? Even idiot Clarkson was in awe of the
Tesla.

As like any other electric car make high
demands of it and the range is
laughable.

200 miles. Even more with the latest batteries.
Zooooooooooooooooooom

snip drivel

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Or anyone who enjoys driving.

If you enjoy FAST driving get a Tesla.

Oh indeed.

Yes indeed.

Provided your idea of fast driving is in very short bursts.

Do you go 125mph for hours on end? Even idiot Clarkson was in awe of the
Tesla.

As like any other electric car make high
demands of it and the range is
laughable.

200 miles. Even more with the latest batteries.
Zooooooooooooooooooom


so when I drive to Scotland (400ish miles), does this mean I have to spend
a night on the way while the battery is recharged?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Or anyone who enjoys driving.

If you enjoy FAST driving get a Tesla.

Oh indeed.

Yes indeed.

Provided your idea of fast driving is in very short bursts.

Do you go 125mph for hours on end? Even idiot Clarkson was in awe of the
Tesla.

As like any other electric car make high
demands of it and the range is
laughable.

200 miles. Even more with the latest batteries.
Zooooooooooooooooooom

so when I drive to Scotland (400ish miles), does this mean I have to spend
a night on the way while the battery is recharged?

Probably. But if you do that trip regularly you would not uses a fun car
like the Tesla, you would use the new Ampera. Using Tosh batteries and
recharge points at service stations would get to Scotland and back no probs.
Sports cars are merely fun cars - nothing else.

Get it? I doubt it?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
A bit like having ~15% of the workforce voting for a strike and calling
everyone out.


"Voting" was by show of hands with heavies in the
crowd to make sure everyone's hand went up.

Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

yeah yeah yeah and the slave trade never happened either.

The thought that you could get a hairy arsed bunch of people to sit
there rowing all day because the alternative wa being killed or not
having any job at all, is simply ludicrous!

The holocaust never happened, could never of happened, because 1000 SS
people simply couldn't have forced 5 million jews into death camps.

Sometimes Dave, I do wonder if you have totally lost your marbles.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I take it you've never been in a union? The idea that a few trouble
makers can 'lead' the majority like sheep is laughable.

It is not.

Then perhaps you'd explain why the now requirement for postal ballots has
made no difference? And never did?

Case in point. A union that is well known and respected is run by a
cadre of people who polled an astonishing 8% of the so called
'membership' to get elected.

You cannot work in this industry without a union card.

If you want to work, you do what they say.

If you want to object, you may lose membership. Or simply not get
offered work again

The actual structure of this union is tightly controlled: members fees
go to those in power and are used to finance campaigns to keep them
there. Anyone who objects is shouted down.

charles wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Or anyone who enjoys driving.
If you enjoy FAST driving get a Tesla.
Oh indeed.

Yes indeed.

Provided your idea of fast driving is in very short bursts.

Do you go 125mph for hours on end? Even idiot Clarkson was in awe of the
Tesla.

As like any other electric car make high
demands of it and the range is
laughable.

200 miles. Even more with the latest batteries.
Zooooooooooooooooooom


so when I drive to Scotland (400ish miles), does this mean I have to spend
a night on the way while the battery is recharged?

two nights.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
A bit like having ~15% of the workforce voting for a strike and calling
everyone out.


"Voting" was by show of hands with heavies in the
crowd to make sure everyone's hand went up.

Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

yeah yeah yeah and the slave trade never happened either.

Where is the connection?

Sometimes Dave, I do wonder if you have totally lost your marbles.

Snotty uni one, he has but not on this point.

In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel
wrote:
Or anyone who enjoys driving.

If you enjoy FAST driving get a Tesla.

Oh indeed.

Yes indeed.

Provided your idea of fast driving is in very short bursts.

Do you go 125mph for hours on end? Even idiot Clarkson was in awe of
the Tesla.

As like any other electric car make high demands of it and the range
is laughable.

200 miles. Even more with the latest batteries. Zooooooooooooooooooom

so when I drive to Scotland (400ish miles), does this mean I have to
spend a night on the way while the battery is recharged?

Probably. But if you do that trip regularly you would not uses a fun car
like the Tesla, you would use the new Ampera. Using Tosh batteries and
recharge points at service stations would get to Scotland and back no
probs. Sports cars are merely fun cars - nothing else.


and how long do I have to spend at a recharging point?

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
A bit like having ~15% of the workforce voting for a strike and
calling everyone out.


"Voting" was by show of hands with heavies in the
crowd to make sure everyone's hand went up.

Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority
of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

yeah yeah yeah and the slave trade never happened either.

Where is the connection?

Sometimes Dave, I do wonder if you have totally lost your marbles.

Snotty uni one, he has but not on this point.

Were you always this much of a snob, drivel?

How odd.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
A bit like having ~15% of the workforce voting for a strike and calling
everyone out.


"Voting" was by show of hands with heavies in the
crowd to make sure everyone's hand went up.

Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

It wasn't the heavies in the crowd that forced people to vote the way
they did, it was the anticipated peer pressure after the meeting. You
had to work with them afterwards, and that could get very unpleasant if
you didn't conform. For much the same reasons, although I'm not in a
union, I take a day's holiday or move a rest day (with the management
knowing why) if there's a strike.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
A bit like having ~15% of the workforce voting for a strike and calling
everyone out.


"Voting" was by show of hands with heavies in the
crowd to make sure everyone's hand went up.

Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

It wasn't the heavies in the crowd that forced people to vote

Oh **** off!!! You are naive.

These loonies think the whole of the problems of the UK was unions - they
were fed an obvious right-wing corporate lie and sucked it in. Such fools.
Easy manipulation is what they are. Unions never did anything. They have
had power.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

yeah yeah yeah and the slave trade never happened either.

The thought that you could get a hairy arsed bunch of people to sit
there rowing all day because the alternative wa being killed or not
having any job at all, is simply ludicrous!

So those thousands of slaves were captured by just a couple of unarmed
white men?

The holocaust never happened, could never of happened, because 1000 SS
people simply couldn't have forced 5 million jews into death camps.

I think you forget the support Hitler had for this course of action - and
not just in Germany. No matter how many refuse to believe it today.

Sometimes Dave, I do wonder if you have totally lost your marbles.

The big difference is I have considerable experience of unions and how
they work. From the inside.

--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Then perhaps you'd explain why the now requirement for postal ballots has
made no difference? And never did?

Case in point. A union that is well known and respected is run by a
cadre of people who polled an astonishing 8% of the so called
'membership' to get elected.

You cannot work in this industry without a union card.

You are living in the long distant past.

If you want to work, you do what they say.

More ********. I worked in a so called closed shop for much of my life.
The leadership is elected by the membership. And has to do what it says.

If you want to object, you may lose membership. Or simply not get
offered work again

More ********. You can't 'loose' membership, nor can it be withdrawn
easily.

The actual structure of this union is tightly controlled: members fees
go to those in power and are used to finance campaigns to keep them
there. Anyone who objects is shouted down.

I'd suggest you join a union and spend some time serving in the various
offices. You might then have some true idea of how they work in practice -
not just believe what you read from those with a large axe to grind.

--
*Always borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

It wasn't the heavies in the crowd that forced people to vote the way
they did, it was the anticipated peer pressure after the meeting. You
had to work with them afterwards, and that could get very unpleasant if
you didn't conform.

Right. So you're suggesting the majority wanted some form of result you
disagreed with? That's rather different from a few heavies forcing all
before them into their point of view.

For much the same reasons, although I'm not in a
union, I take a day's holiday or move a rest day (with the management
knowing why) if there's a strike.

I would ask what you do if that industrial action results in improved pay
or conditions, etc. Do you turn them down?

--
*We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Steve Firth wrote:
No he didn't. That was one of the reasons for changing to postal
voting.

Of course the heavies still rule at conference. I know an elderly female
shop steward who was bullied mercilessly by the heavies because she
dared to vote as instructed by her members and not according to the
diktat of committee members.

Were you there to see it happening? If so, why didn't you take some action?

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/12/2011 13:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Do you go 125mph for hours on end? Even idiot Clarkson was in awe of
the Tesla.

After the two they tested broke down? I think not.

He loved it right up to the point where both test cars broke down and he
found out that a recharge from flat takes 16 hours. Then he wasn't so
complimentary.

"LEGAL NOTICE: This programme is now the subject of legal proceedings
for defamation and malicious falsehood brought by Tesla Motors Ltd and
Tesla Motors Inc against the BBC"

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 29/12/2011 14:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
John wrote:
Total ********. The very idea a few heavies could force the majority of
hairy arsed blokes to do something they didn't want to is laughable.

It wasn't the heavies in the crowd that forced people to vote the way
they did, it was the anticipated peer pressure after the meeting. You
had to work with them afterwards, and that could get very unpleasant if
you didn't conform.

Right. So you're suggesting the majority wanted some form of result you
disagreed with? That's rather different from a few heavies forcing all
before them into their point of view.

I was talking in general terms, not mentioning a particular case. I've
not been in the situation of disagreeing with the rest of the union
members in a meeting, though I know of some who have. Those who
disagreed openly often found it hard to get colleagues to cover time off
for illness or family problems, for instance.

For much the same reasons, although I'm not in a
union, I take a day's holiday or move a rest day (with the management
knowing why) if there's a strike.

I would ask what you do if that industrial action results in improved pay
or conditions, etc. Do you turn them down?

No, but after my last experience with an all-union firm, I avoid such
companies. The last one I worked for had the worst pay and conditions in
the area for that industry.

From another point of view, I am supporting the union by taking the
same action and lose the same amount of pay that they do, so why should
I turn down the benefits, especially when the union don't offer help to
non-members? Which, again in the case of the last union firm I worked
for, was no help to me whatsoever.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:45:30 +0000, charles wrote:
As like any other electric car make high demands of it and the range
is laughable.

200 miles. Even more with the latest batteries. Zooooooooooooooooooom

so when I drive to Scotland (400ish miles), does this mean I have to
spend a night on the way while the battery is recharged?

Surely you just nip to your nearest co-op and trade your flat batteries
in for some fresh Duracells?