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#1
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Lets have green public transport
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634
"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." -- Adam |
#2
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Lets have green public transport
"ARWadsworth" wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634 "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Odd that. From reading the article you'd think all they needed to do was brake more. After all, that's all it seems to run on apart from when it's doing long journeys. ;-) Tim |
#3
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Lets have green public transport
"Tim" wrote in message
... "ARWadsworth" wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634 "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Odd that. From reading the article you'd think all they needed to do was brake more. After all, that's all it seems to run on apart from when it's doing long journeys. ;-) Tim Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in fact green. Paul DS. |
#4
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Lets have green public transport
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 08:35:51 -0000, Paul D Smith
wrote: "Tim" wrote in message ... "ARWadsworth" wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634 "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Odd that. From reading the article you'd think all they needed to do was brake more. After all, that's all it seems to run on apart from when it's doing long journeys. ;-) Tim Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in fact green. Paul DS. If that is so it would use more diesel as the bus sits there not moving with the engine running - could go on forever. At least a moving bus gets to a destination eventually and can switch off. -- Rod |
#5
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Lets have green public transport
In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634 "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed motorway, etc, work. I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. -- *Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#6
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Lets have green public transport
"Paul D Smith" wrote in message ... Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in fact green. There is insufficient data to draw that conclusion. A normal bus will drive using lots of diesel then stop using little diesel, repeat. The "green" bus will drive using battery and run generator using medium amount of diesel. Unless you know what the stop start ratio is and how much it runs the generator you can't know its green. It the prius problem, you can run a fully charged prius for a few miles and claim its green, if you run the same prius for a hundred miles it uses more fuel than a medium diesel car and it isn't green at all. |
#7
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Lets have green public transport
I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on the roof under a fiberglass hump, wouldent trolley busses be even better? mind even the ones in zurich have a small diesel engine on board, used for when they unhook from the power wires to go into the depot/garage, the river starts a small diesel engine which allows the bus to do about 5mph, not sure if it's a generator or directly driving the bus, |
#8
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Lets have green public transport
In message om, at
10:55:06 on Tue, 20 Dec 2011, "dennis@home" remarked: Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in fact green. There is insufficient data to draw that conclusion. A normal bus will drive using lots of diesel then stop using little diesel, repeat. The "green" bus will drive using battery and run generator using medium amount of diesel. Unless you know what the stop start ratio is and how much it runs the generator you can't know its green. It the prius problem, you can run a fully charged prius for a few miles and claim its green, if you run the same prius for a hundred miles it uses more fuel than a medium diesel car and it isn't green at all. You could look at the overall mpg. Which is claimed to be 11.6mpg compared to 8.6mpg for earlier designs of hybrid bus and 5.8mpg for a normal diesel bus. -- Roland Perry |
#9
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Lets have green public transport
In message , at 10:39:32 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634 "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later" established. Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed motorway, etc, work. And a London bus sends how much time running on Motorways, normally? -- Roland Perry |
#10
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Lets have green public transport
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... In message om, at 10:55:06 on Tue, 20 Dec 2011, "dennis@home" remarked: Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in fact green. There is insufficient data to draw that conclusion. A normal bus will drive using lots of diesel then stop using little diesel, repeat. The "green" bus will drive using battery and run generator using medium amount of diesel. Unless you know what the stop start ratio is and how much it runs the generator you can't know its green. It the prius problem, you can run a fully charged prius for a few miles and claim its green, if you run the same prius for a hundred miles it uses more fuel than a medium diesel car and it isn't green at all. You could look at the overall mpg. Which is claimed to be 11.6mpg compared to 8.6mpg for earlier designs of hybrid bus and 5.8mpg for a normal diesel bus. If that is under the same conditions and those conditions are typical of how they are driven. Even then they may not be green as its the total emissions over its life that matter not just the bit where its driving about. Then even if it does reduce the total emissions it may still produce more emissions than an alternative. There is no such thing as green only shades of other colours. |
#11
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Lets have green public transport
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:10:16 -0000, "Gazz" wrote:
I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on the roof under a fiberglass hump, Southampton introduced some approx 15- 20 years ago. I remember the publicity when the installation was put in. ISTR that the equipment was based on some used in New Zealand and as well as buses some Southampton Council vans were equipped to use CNG as well. I havn't been there for a year or so now and don't know if they are still in service or were replaced by newer ones. G.Harman |
#12
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Lets have green public transport
In message om, at
11:58:14 on Tue, 20 Dec 2011, "dennis@home" remarked: You could look at the overall mpg. Which is claimed to be 11.6mpg compared to 8.6mpg for earlier designs of hybrid bus and 5.8mpg for a normal diesel bus. If that is under the same conditions and those conditions are typical of how they are driven. That is what we must assume, on pain of such figures being exposed as a fraud. Even then they may not be green as its the total emissions over its life that matter not just the bit where its driving about. Then even if it does reduce the total emissions it may still produce more emissions than an alternative. There is no such thing as green only shades of other colours. I assume you are referring to the carbon footprint of manufacturing a complex vehicle like this. I agree that this should be factored into a lifetime figure for a vehicle. http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/energy.shtml suggests that the manufacturing contribution for a bus could be as much as 30%, but if that delivers double the fuel efficiency it's a win. -- Roland Perry |
#13
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Lets have green public transport
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:30:02 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote: "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later" established. Sounds like the driver was an idiot, not topping up the tank before setting off, as is the norm for buses at the start of a shift/long journey. Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus ran on Magic Pixie Dust. |
#14
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Lets have green public transport
In article ,
wrote: On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:30:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later" established. Sounds like the driver was an idiot, not topping up the tank before setting off, as is the norm for buses at the start of a shift/long journey. but he probably didn't start at a proper depot with fuel available. Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus ran on Magic Pixie Dust. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 |
#16
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Lets have green public transport
wrote in message ... Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus ran on Magic Pixie Dust. the article mentioned it running on brake dust at the start. |
#17
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Lets have green public transport
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#18
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Lets have green public transport
On 20/12/2011 10:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In , wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634 "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed motorway, etc, work. I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. Much less stinky too. Cambridge had some CNG ones in the 90s (might still do, don't know), and though the smell was a bit odd there wasn't much of it and they were much more pleasant to be around. |
#19
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Lets have green public transport
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:47:41 +0000, dennis@home wrote:
wrote in message ... Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus ran on Magic Pixie Dust. the article mentioned it running on brake dust at the start. Indeed. That's why it also says that drivers are told to pull over to the side of the road to recharge, because that's when brakes are most dusty. |
#20
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Lets have green public transport
In message , at 13:49:49 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, Bill Wright remarked: Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? The overwhelmingly largest part of the electrical energy comes from coal or gas burnt in a power station. Part of this energy is used to recharge the bus overnight (they must do this or all the energy needed to move the bus would come from diesel and they wouldn't be able to pretend that was green). If the design results in using half as much diesel, powered entirely by that diesel (so no over-complication by overnight charging) then that's a significant "win". -- Roland Perry |
#21
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Lets have green public transport
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#22
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Lets have green public transport
In article ,
Gazz wrote: I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on the roof under a fiberglass hump, wouldent trolley busses be even better? The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets. -- *Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#23
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Lets have green public transport
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote: Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed motorway, etc, work. And a London bus sends how much time running on Motorways, normally? This one did and ran out of fuel. -- *A closed mouth gathers no feet.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#24
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Lets have green public transport
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote: All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running round like headless chickens, same as them. But the busses are just for you northerners visiting London, as you don't seem able to keep away. Londoners drive cars. -- *One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#25
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Lets have green public transport
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Gazz wrote: I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on the roof under a fiberglass hump, wouldent trolley busses be even better? The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets. They would improve some.. |
#26
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Lets have green public transport
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:49:49 on Tue, 20 Dec 2011, Bill Wright remarked: Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? The overwhelmingly largest part of the electrical energy comes from coal or gas burnt in a power station. Part of this energy is used to recharge the bus overnight (they must do this or all the energy needed to move the bus would come from diesel and they wouldn't be able to pretend that was green). If the design results in using half as much diesel, powered entirely by that diesel (so no over-complication by overnight charging) then that's a significant "win". True. But it won't. Bill |
#27
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Lets have green public transport
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
a bit of it is coming from nuclear power at least. Well yes, the mix also includes other renewables. Bill |
#28
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Lets have green public transport
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Bill Wright wrote: All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running round like headless chickens, same as them. But the busses are just for you northerners visiting London, as you don't seem able to keep away. Londoners drive cars. Well you sit in them and wait... Bill |
#29
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Lets have green public transport
Bill Wright wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: a bit of it is coming from nuclear power at least. Well yes, the mix also includes other renewables. Sure. in homeopathic doses..:-) Bill |
#30
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Lets have green public transport
In message , at 16:58:59 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, Bill Wright remarked: If the design results in using half as much diesel, powered entirely by that diesel (so no over-complication by overnight charging) then that's a significant "win". True. But it won't. Why not. -- Roland Perry |
#31
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Lets have green public transport
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Gazz wrote: I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on the roof under a fiberglass hump, wouldent trolley busses be even better? The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets. Not as much as how tram lines are a screwup. My mate says that trolley coaches are the answer Diesel whnn they cant and two wires when they can. Up the fast lane of the M1. He used to work for a train company 'Just a lot of people who never grew out of train sets: hugely expensive way to move stuff around: roads much cheaper' |
#32
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Lets have green public transport
In message , at 16:35:30 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked: And a London bus sends how much time running on Motorways, normally? This one did and ran out of fuel. Yes - two different problems: it's not designed for continuous high speed running, *and* the diesel part ran out of fuel. -- Roland Perry |
#33
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Lets have green public transport
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Tim Streater wrote: In article , "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Gazz wrote: I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on the roof under a fiberglass hump, wouldent trolley busses be even better? The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets. Not as much as how tram lines are a screwup. My mate says that trolley coaches are the answer Diesel whnn they cant and two wires when they can. Up the fast lane of the M1. He used to work for a train company 'Just a lot of people who never grew out of train sets: hugely expensive way to move stuff around: roads much cheaper' I can remember an article in Eagle (1950s) about a Swiss trolley bus with an enormous flywheel to use for motive power when there were no overhead wires. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 |
#34
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Lets have green public transport
On Dec 20, 11:39*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. They do in Switzerland and in parts of India at least. Neil |
#35
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Lets have green public transport
On Dec 20, 2:49*pm, Bill Wright wrote:
Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? Because you can put energy back into them when braking, just like a lot of modern trains put energy back into the overhead wire (assuming something is there to consume it) when they brake. I don't believe there is any plan to charge the batteries overnight, the diesel engine will do that. Neil |
#36
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Lets have green public transport
Clive George wrote:
Much less stinky too. Cambridge had some CNG ones in the 90s (might still do, don't know), and though the smell was a bit odd there wasn't much of it and they were much more pleasant to be around. Brisbane was very fresh smelling - I put it down to all the busses and taxis being LPG. China is encouraging taxi LPG conversions too. -- Tim Watts |
#37
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Lets have green public transport
On Dec 20, 6:14*pm, charles wrote:
I can remember an article in Eagle (1950s) about a Swiss trolley bus with an enormous flywheel to use for motive power when there were no overhead wires. The Parry People Mover, a curious little railbus thing used on the Stourbridge Town to Junction shuttle train, uses a flywheel. It's charged up by a diesel engine (one that'd be too small to move the vehicle effectively on its own) and by braking. Not a dissimilar concept, just a different way of doing things (though of course with its own challenges). Neil |
#38
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Lets have green public transport
On Dec 20, 1:49*pm, Bill Wright wrote:
wrote: On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:30:02 +0000, Roland Perry wrote: "It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel." Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later" established. Sounds like the driver was an idiot, not topping up the tank before setting off, as is the norm for buses at the start of a shift/long journey. Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus ran on Magic Pixie Dust. Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? The overwhelmingly largest part of the electrical energy comes from coal or gas burnt in a power station. Part of this energy is used to recharge the bus overnight (they must do this or all the energy needed to move the bus would come from diesel and they wouldn't be able to pretend that was green). But a lot of it is lost in transmission and because the charger and the process of charging and discharging a battery is very inefficient. All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running round like headless chickens, same as them. Bill There are several possible technologies. The whole thing however revolves around being able to recover energy lost as heat in the brakes and engine when slowing down in a normal bus, (ie regenerative braking) and having somewhere to store it. (Battery) Pointless taking such a machine on the motorway. I supposeyou could make passengers get off and walk up hills and get on at the top so making use of their potential enrgy. |
#39
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Lets have green public transport
On Dec 20, 4:38*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , * *Bill Wright wrote: All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running round like headless chickens, same as them. But the busses are just for you northerners visiting London, as you don't seem able to keep away. Londoners drive cars. I heard there weren't any Londoners left. Everyone there is from Bombay. |
#40
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Lets have green public transport
On Dec 20, 5:14*pm, charles wrote:
In article , * *The Natural Philosopher wrote: Tim Streater wrote: In article , "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , * *Gazz wrote: I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too. abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on the roof under a fiberglass hump, wouldent trolley busses be even better? The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets. Not as much as how tram lines are a screwup. My mate says that trolley coaches are the answer Diesel whnn they cant and two wires when they can. Up the fast lane of the M1. He used to work for a train company 'Just a lot of people who never grew out of train sets: hugely expensive way to move stuff around: roads much cheaper' I can remember an article in Eagle (1950s) about a Swiss trolley bus with an enormous flywheel to use for motive power when there were no overhead wires. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Gone. They had to stop frequently to spin up the wheel. There were all sorts of problems to do with precession and other gyroscopic side effects. |
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