On 21/12/11 12:49, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Only a small part of London is covered by the congestion charge. And
parking within that is likely to be impossible or cost even more than the
CC. So the only sensible way to get there is by PT.

Their emissions are far less than the poisoning crap we now have.

I take it you haven't looked at the vast range of cars in the same tax
band based on emissions?

The majority are smaller in size and in power.



The
low noise levels alone are worth.

But what a horrible noise it does make from that weedy engine straining at
every pore...


Um it's a 1.8L engine. Sounds the same as pretty much any other 1.8L engine
(if anything it's quieter as the ECU limits the RPM to something like 5500).
It will do 0-60 in a bit over 10 seconds, the same as any other bog standard
car of about the same size & same size engine.

On motorway driving you won't beat a good diesel car for mpg. For mixed
driving, well it depends on the ratio of how much high speed/low speed
driving you do. In the Toyota system, even at high speed it's possible to be
running on electric power alone - the choice of power source is related more
to how hard the accelerator is pressed rather than how fast the car is going.
And the system will use the electric motor, petrol engine or both as it sees
fit, to power the 2 front wheels.

Peugeot's new diesel hybrids are wonderfully simple. It's basically a 4WD
vehicle, where the front wheels are driven by the regular stop-start diesel
engine, and the rear wheels are driven by motor-generators.

But the Prius is really intended for the US market, although it's sold
everywhere. Americans just don't buy diesel cars in any great numbers, they
don't like them. In the UK, the main use of the latest Prius is as a company
car. They are popular because the tax benefits are huge compared to regular
petrol or diesel cars, and you get a lot of kit included in the price (cruise
control, reversing camera, sat nav etc). I don't think most of those drivers
give two hoots about the green credentials (but they might find the higher
than average MPG a bonus).

On 22/12/11 23:15, Andy Champ wrote:
On 22/12/2011 08:40, Doctor Drivel wrote:

But I see everyone forgets the Chevy Volt. In fact no one mentions it
except me.

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/cars/volt/

It isn't for sale in the UK. That web site says it'll be on sale in Europe
later this year though - which I guess means next week as there isn't much
year left.


Also known as the Vauxhall Ampera. I think there'll also be a plug-in hybrid
Prius out around the same time too. Basically the same car but with more
expensive higher capacity batteries.

On 20/12/11 10:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.


That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a conventional
petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed you can ease off the
pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to keep you at-speed,
requiring much lower power output from the engine.

The engine is Atkinson cycle too, so beats a regular petrol engine at low RPM.

Unlikely to beat a modern diesel's MPG figures on these kinds of trips though.

I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.


They did, in Northampton.

http://www.showbus.com/gallery/wm/northampton.htm

(part-way down).

On 20/12/11 17:14, charles wrote:

Diesel whnn they cant and two wires when they can. Up the fast lane of
the M1. He used to work for a train company 'Just a lot of people who
never grew out of train sets: hugely expensive way to move stuff around:
roads much cheaper'

I can remember an article in Eagle (1950s) about a Swiss trolley bus with
an enormous flywheel to use for motive power when there were no overhead
wires.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139

On 21/12/11 11:49, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...

Straight tracks last and last.

a) The tracks are not straight. Good luck trying to straighten them

Many are and new lines should be a straight as possible.

As straight as possible is not the same as "straight".


b) Straight or not, they require *maintenance*. You may have heard of it.

Light-rail stock and superior suspension vastly reduces wear on the bends.
Maglev does not have this problem.


But it does have a whole shedload of others.

On 23/12/11 14:04, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"funkyoldcortina" wrote in message
...
On 21/12/11 11:49, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Light-rail stock and superior suspension vastly reduces wear on the bends.
Maglev does not have this problem.

But it does have a whole shedload of others.

It does not.

Maglev is now mature enough indeed. The points for Maglev are so strong it is
silly and downright irresponsible not to go for it.

1. Costs the same to build - if not cheaper
2. Faster by eons
3. Will improve throughput of trains
4. Maintenance costs will be far less
5. Futureproof - if capacity needed, more trains can be on the track and
travel times not compromised
6. Less down time
7. A British invention
etc
etc
etc

Note points 1 and 4.

All of those points could also apply to handing everyone in the country
Sinclair C5's (with the exception of point 2). Doesn't mean we should do it.

funkyoldcortina wrote:

On 22/12/11 23:15, Andy Champ wrote:
On 22/12/2011 08:40, Doctor Drivel wrote:

But I see everyone forgets the Chevy Volt. In fact no one mentions it
except me.

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/cars/volt/

It isn't for sale in the UK. That web site says it'll be on sale in
Europe later this year though - which I guess means next week as there
isn't much year left.


Also known as the Vauxhall Ampera. I think there'll also be a plug-in
hybrid Prius out around the same time too. Basically the same car but with
more expensive higher capacity batteries.

Do those have an option to plug into the mains? There are a few charging
posts appearing in the poncier parts of London and I'm sure I've sene one of
those jacked in...

--
Tim Watts

On 23/12/11 14:16, Tim Watts wrote:
funkyoldcortina wrote:

On 22/12/11 23:15, Andy Champ wrote:
On 22/12/2011 08:40, Doctor Drivel wrote:

But I see everyone forgets the Chevy Volt. In fact no one mentions it
except me.

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/cars/volt/

It isn't for sale in the UK. That web site says it'll be on sale in
Europe later this year though - which I guess means next week as there
isn't much year left.


Also known as the Vauxhall Ampera. I think there'll also be a plug-in
hybrid Prius out around the same time too. Basically the same car but with
more expensive higher capacity batteries.

Do those have an option to plug into the mains? There are a few charging
posts appearing in the poncier parts of London and I'm sure I've sene one of
those jacked in...


Yup.

http://www.which.co.uk/news/2011/11/...r-ever-271784/

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-part...nch-approaches

Eye-wateringly expensive though, for what's basically a car the same size as
an Avensis or Mondeo.

funkyoldcortina wrote:
On 20/12/11 10:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.


That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed
you can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work
to keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.


Er no, probably it doesn't. That depends on where the peak efficiency of
that engine is: at 50mph this might indeed be true at 70 mph it probably
wont be.


You are second guessing the 'crusing power' of that car and you then add
a small amount of storage in the hope that stop-starting the engine to
charge is relatively efficient compared with having it on all the time,
and that you have accurately gauged what its peak continuous power
requiremtents will be.



The engine is Atkinson cycle too, so beats a regular petrol engine at
low RPM.

But doesn't at higher RPM etc. Not will it beat a good diesel in either
case.

Unlikely to beat a modern diesel's MPG figures on these kinds of trips
though.


Exactly.

Sadly the Prius is an Ok ish town car but its not a car for a lot of
motorway use. A good modern diesel in a light bodyshell is a lot better.

And a full BEV is better in town..

In article ,
funkyoldcortina wrote:
In the Toyota system, even at high speed it's possible to be
running on electric power alone

Thus draining the battery which has to be re-charged. Both quite
inefficient processes.

--
*Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.
The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Using a highly taxed fuel to generate electricity? Very logical.

Regeneration recovers potential and kinetic energy and stores it in
the battery.

Which has its uses under some conditions.

Must be fiendishly complex, heavy and expensive.
It is an attempt to cover all bases.


It is fiendishly simple, and cheap to run. Mass production will drop the
price to nothing.

And the Pious has dropped to near nothing during its production run? I've
got news for you...

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/12/11 13:38, funkyoldcortina wrote:


But the Prius is really intended for the US market, although it's sold
everywhere. Americans just don't buy diesel cars in any great numbers,
they don't like them. In the UK, the main use of the latest Prius is as
a company car. They are popular because the tax benefits are huge
compared to regular petrol or diesel cars, and you get a lot of kit
included in the price (cruise control, reversing camera, sat nav etc). I
don't think most of those drivers give two hoots about the green
credentials (but they might find the higher than average MPG a bonus).


Almost every one I see around here (central London) have a TfL Licenced
Hire sticker on them.





--
djc

In article ,
funkyoldcortina wrote:
That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed
you can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work
to keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.

Please explain where the power for that electric motor came from and how
it was generated?

The engine is Atkinson cycle too, so beats a regular petrol engine at
low RPM.

But it can't produce enough power at low RPM for all the requirements. And
is far less economical than a conventional engine at higher RPM.

Unlikely to beat a modern diesel's MPG figures on these kinds of trips
though.

Finally. It's a car specifically designed for large US cities. And like
just about any other US vehicle, anything but ideal for the UK.

--
*I'm planning to be spontaneous tomorrow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
funkyoldcortina wrote:
That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed
you can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work
to keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.

Please explain where the power for that electric motor came from and how
it was generated?

The engine is Atkinson cycle too, so beats a regular petrol engine at
low RPM.

But it can't produce enough power at low RPM for all the requirements. And
is far less economical than a conventional engine at higher RPM.

Unlikely to beat a modern diesel's MPG figures on these kinds of trips
though.

Finally. It's a car specifically designed for large US cities. And like
just about any other US vehicle, anything but ideal for the UK.

No its designed for californicators consciences. Its pure eco masturbation.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Finally. It's a car specifically designed for large US cities. And like
just about any other US vehicle, anything but ideal for the UK.

No its designed for californicators consciences. Its pure eco
masturbation.

And only used where it is to be seen and photographed with the wannabe
eco-conscious owner. Who at all other times drives the standard 4x4.

--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:47:20 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.
The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Using a highly taxed fuel to generate electricity? Very logical.

Regeneration recovers potential and kinetic energy and stores it in
the battery.

Which has its uses under some conditions.

Must be fiendishly complex, heavy and expensive.
It is an attempt to cover all bases.


It is fiendishly simple, and cheap to run. Mass production will drop the
price to nothing.

And the Pious has dropped to near nothing during its production run? I've
got news for you...


It might make more sense if the whole generator side could be detached and
left at home when undertaking short journeys? At least then you are not
always burdened with that. As someone who lives at the top of a hill, I am
ever so aware of the impact of some extra weight on climbing ability.

--
Rod

funkyoldcortina wrote:
[snip]

That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed you
can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to
keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.

That's compete ********. The Prius only has one small advantage on the
motorway. Some energy lost when braking can be recovered. That's it. The
electric motor cannot suck energy from thin air.

Most tests of the Prius have shown relatively poor mpg on long runs.

The engine is Atkinson cycle too, so beats a regular petrol engine at low RPM.

Cobblers. The Atkinson cycle does not improve efficiency at low rpm. It is
designed to maximise efficiency at a given, constant rpm which for the
Pious is IIRC around 3k rpm.

In message

, Steve Firth writes
funkyoldcortina wrote:
[snip]

That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a
conventional petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed you
can ease off the pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to
keep you at-speed, requiring much lower power output from the engine.

That's compete ********. The Prius only has one small advantage on the
motorway. Some energy lost when braking can be recovered. That's it. The
electric motor cannot suck energy from thin air.

Most tests of the Prius have shown relatively poor mpg on long runs.

The engine is Atkinson cycle too, so beats a regular petrol engine at
low RPM.

Cobblers. The Atkinson cycle does not improve efficiency at low rpm. It is
designed to maximise efficiency at a given, constant rpm which for the
Pious is IIRC around 3k rpm.

Point of order...

Is the charge performance of a battery the same for all states of
charge? I don't know anything about *electro-chemistry* but wonder if
conversion efficiency varies with the charge level?

Generator efficiency will presumable vary with load and I wonder if the
overall performance tails off as the battery approaches full charge?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
Generator efficiency will presumable vary with load and I wonder if the
overall performance tails off as the battery approaches full charge?

Very much so. An IC engine running at a given speed has near fixed
friction and heat loss. If at a low throttle, pumping loses are greater
too. So the efficiency is much less than for a higher output at the same
engine speed.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Dec 23, 1:49*pm, funkyoldcortina wrote:
On 20/12/11 10:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In ,
* * *wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634

"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.

That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a conventional
petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed you can ease off the
pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to keep you at-speed,
requiring much lower power output from the engine.

The engine is Atkinson cycle too, so beats a regular petrol engine at low RPM.

Unlikely to beat a modern diesel's MPG figures on these kinds of trips though.

I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

They did, in Northampton.

http://www.showbus.com/gallery/wm/northampton.htm

(part-way down).

LPG is essentially no different from petrol.

On Dec 23, 2:04*pm, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"funkyoldcortina" wrote in message

...





On 21/12/11 11:49, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...

Straight tracks last and last.

a) The tracks are not straight. Good luck trying to straighten them

Many are and new lines should be a straight as possible.

As straight as possible is not the same as "straight".

b) Straight or not, they require *maintenance*. You may have heard of
it.

Light-rail stock and superior suspension vastly reduces wear on the
bends.
Maglev does not have this problem.

But it does have a whole shedload of others.

It does not.

Maglev is now mature enough indeed. The points for Maglev are so strong

Points are one of the major problems.

On 23/12/2011 00:18, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
On 22/12/2011 08:40, Doctor Drivel wrote:

But I see everyone forgets the Chevy Volt. In fact no one mentions it
except me.

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/cars/volt/

It isn't for sale in the UK.

This year the Vauxhall Ampera.

Which year? It's on Vauxhall's website under "future models".

Andy

On 23/12/2011 10:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed
the power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient.
Drive slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good
results. As, of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up
and drive it a bit harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a
motorway hill - and it becomes far less economical than a conventional
car. As well as being a pain in the arse to drive.


You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.

No I'm not. If you run an engine at a steady speed it produces a given
maximum amount of power. That can either be used to charge a battery or
drive the vehicle direct. If it is set to provide the maximum power
required for driving the vehicle direct, it will be horribly inefficient
when that maximum power isn't needed, if the battery is full.

Can't you just turn the IC engine off and run on the batteries for a bit
- then turn it back on for a recharge?


The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Generator sets are horribly inefficient at low power outputs. If they were
very efficient at all times everywhere would generate their own
electricity.

Regeneration recovers potential and kinetic energy and stores it in
the battery.

Must be fiendishly complex, heavy and expensive.
It is an attempt to cover all bases.

Like all these things it is designed to get round US emission regulations.
With all the usual hype about performance and economy which is proved to
be a lie in practice.


That may well be true. If they were really aimed at our market they'd
use diesels with F-off big turbochargers (lag not being an issue)
instead of petrol.

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
On 23/12/2011 10:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed
the power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient.
Drive slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good
results. As, of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up
and drive it a bit harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a
motorway hill - and it becomes far less economical than a conventional
car. As well as being a pain in the arse to drive.


You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.

No I'm not. If you run an engine at a steady speed it produces a given
maximum amount of power. That can either be used to charge a battery or
drive the vehicle direct. If it is set to provide the maximum power
required for driving the vehicle direct, it will be horribly inefficient
when that maximum power isn't needed, if the battery is full.

Can't you just turn the IC engine off and run on the batteries for a bit
- then turn it back on for a recharge?


The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Generator sets are horribly inefficient at low power outputs. If they were
very efficient at all times everywhere would generate their own
electricity.

Regeneration recovers potential and kinetic energy and stores it in
the battery.

Must be fiendishly complex, heavy and expensive.
It is an attempt to cover all bases.

Like all these things it is designed to get round US emission regulations.
With all the usual hype about performance and economy which is proved to
be a lie in practice.


That may well be true. If they were really aimed at our market they'd
use diesels with F-off big turbochargers (lag not being an issue) instead of petrol.

Andy

They might, except, if cars don't burn petrol, what do they do with the
lighter fractions of oil? It may be an urban myth but I believe that when
oil was first extracted, the lighter fractions were burnt off as they were
considered too volatile and dangerous.

Tom

On 21/12/2011 14:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
On 2011-12-21, Dave Plowman wrote:
In ,
Bill wrote:
We all have the option where we live and work.

No we don't. Life isn't that simple. What if you have dependent
relatives at one location and the only work is at another, as one
small example?

Take the dependant relatives with you when you move close to work.

Odd. You're normally a rather sensible, if somewhat argumentative
person. Have you omitted your medication lately?

It is, of course, up to the individual if they choose to live a long way
from either relatives or work. But if they then whinge on and on about the
time, cost or inconvenience of travelling? And it's not new either Had
colleagues doing just that in the '60s.

Not exactly a choice. We live close to my parents, who we rely on for
part-time childcare, school pick-ups on some days and emergencies. I
have to drive an hour to work. That is where the work is, but I can't
move there, as that'd involve moving away from our family support;
pulling our three children out of their schools; and my wife would have
to drive for an hour the other way to her work. My job is likely to
disappear in 6-12 months and I will then have to find somewhere else to
work - which could easily be an hour in the opposite direction!

SteveW

On 21/12/2011 18:34, charles wrote:
In , Tim
wrote:
In , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In , Tim
wrote:
Ha ha v. funny. Road freight is at least 80% of the total. Our rail
network strains to take the other 20%. To make much difference you'd
have to make that 60/40, that is at least a doubling of the amount of
freight on the railway. Could you kindly indicate which lines you
think it's gonna be on? Why do you think I was suggesting going to
four tracks as much as possible? That way the slow freight could
mix with the slow local trains.

Freight often runs overnight. As you'd see if you catch any late trains
round London. And that could likely be increased.

20% may not sound like much, but putting that 20% on the roads would
cause chaos.

That 20% is already on the roads. But if most freight already runs
overnight, there's a lot to be said for adding the extra tracks so more
of it can runs daytime too.

Course, a lot of e.g. Tesco big trucks are going to be refrigerated ...

on the other hand, I saw (about 10 years ago) it small train - only 2
ASDA containers - on the line from Inverness to Wick/Thurso. They
obviously found it more economical than road.

It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around for
maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper to move it
by road rather than rail.

SteveW

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 21/12/2011 18:34, charles wrote:
In , Tim
wrote:
In , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In , Tim
wrote:
Ha ha v. funny. Road freight is at least 80% of the total. Our rail
network strains to take the other 20%. To make much difference you'd
have to make that 60/40, that is at least a doubling of the amount of
freight on the railway. Could you kindly indicate which lines you
think it's gonna be on? Why do you think I was suggesting going to
four tracks as much as possible? That way the slow freight could
mix with the slow local trains.

Freight often runs overnight. As you'd see if you catch any late
trains round London. And that could likely be increased.

20% may not sound like much, but putting that 20% on the roads would
cause chaos.

That 20% is already on the roads. But if most freight already runs
overnight, there's a lot to be said for adding the extra tracks so more
of it can runs daytime too.

Course, a lot of e.g. Tesco big trucks are going to be refrigerated ...

on the other hand, I saw (about 10 years ago) it small train - only 2
ASDA containers - on the line from Inverness to Wick/Thurso. They
obviously found it more economical than road.

It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around for
maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper to move it
by road rather than rail.


which shows that someone has got the costing of road transport wrong.
After all, that too is "subsidised by the taxayer".

I once got stuck behind a very large vehicle which was carrying a Eurostar
loco to Derby BREL - by road!

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

charles wrote:
It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around for
maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper to move it
by road rather than rail.


which shows that someone has got the costing of road transport wrong.
After all, that too is "subsidised by the taxayer".

The taxes paid by road users far exceed the amount spent on the road
network. In effect, road users subsidise the rail network, the NHS.....

If they used all the taxes paid for road use for improving and
maintaining the road network, we'd have the best roads in the world, and
still pay less.

I once got stuck behind a very large vehicle which was carrying a Eurostar
loco to Derby BREL - by road!

In days gone by, that would have been taken by rail. Now, there isn't
the spare capacity on the network for most special workings, even if you
ignore what Network Rail or whatever they're being called this week
charge for track access.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

charles wrote:
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
[snip]

It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around for
maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper to move it
by road rather than rail.


which shows that someone has got the costing of road transport wrong.
After all, that too is "subsidised by the taxayer".

Drivel. Motorists pay more taxation on vehicle use than the cost of
building and maintaining the roads.

I once got stuck behind a very large vehicle which was carrying a Eurostar
loco to Derby BREL - by road!

As Steve said, it's cheaper to move freight by road.

Steve Walker wrote:

Not exactly a choice. We live close to my parents, who we rely on for
part-time childcare, school pick-ups on some days and emergencies. I
have to drive an hour to work. That is where the work is, but I can't
move there, as that'd involve moving away from our family support;
pulling our three children out of their schools; and my wife would have
to drive for an hour the other way to her work. My job is likely to
disappear in 6-12 months and I will then have to find somewhere else to
work - which could easily be an hour in the opposite direction!

What you're up against are the social engineers on the left who take no
account of the individual and like to make sweeping generalisations and
policy based on their perception of 'the good of the majority'.

Bill

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
charles wrote:
It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around for
maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper to move it
by road rather than rail.


which shows that someone has got the costing of road transport wrong.
After all, that too is "subsidised by the taxayer".

The taxes paid by road users far exceed the amount spent on the road
network. In effect, road users subsidise the rail network, the NHS.....

remember that all the non-trunk roads are paid for by the relevant local
authority, not out of central funds. Once upon a time - when I first had a
car - the "road fund licence" was collected by the local authority. It was
subsequently 'nationalised'.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
which shows that someone has got the costing of road transport wrong.
After all, that too is "subsidised by the taxayer".

The taxes paid by road users far exceed the amount spent on the road
network. In effect, road users subsidise the rail network, the NHS.....

True - but the taxes paid by trucks is pro rata less than by private cars.
Heavy vehicles cause much more damage to roads than cars.

--
*All men are idiots, and I married their King.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote:
And it left the miners able to hold the country to ransom. They brought
down the previous Conservative government, they tried it on with Mrs T
and she was stronger and smarter.

Perhaps we need her back to do the same with the financial institutions.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

Not exactly a choice. We live close to my parents, who we rely on for
part-time childcare, school pick-ups on some days and emergencies. I
have to drive an hour to work. That is where the work is, but I can't
move there, as that'd involve moving away from our family support;
pulling our three children out of their schools; and my wife would
have to drive for an hour the other way to her work. My job is likely
to disappear in 6-12 months and I will then have to find somewhere
else to work - which could easily be an hour in the opposite
direction!

What you're up against are the social engineers on the left who take no
account of the individual and like to make sweeping generalisations and
policy based on their perception of 'the good of the majority'.

Not one for generalizations, then, Bill?

--
*What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Huge
wrote:
On 2011-12-24, charles wrote:
In article , Steve Walker
wrote:

It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around
for maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper to
move it by road rather than rail.


which shows that someone has got the costing of road transport wrong.

Nonsense.


True - the tax on goods vehicles goes nowhere towards paying for the damage
they do to roads.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

In article , Huge
wrote:
On 2011-12-24, charles wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:
On 2011-12-24, charles wrote:
In article , Steve Walker
wrote:

It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around
for maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper
to move it by road rather than rail.


which shows that someone has got the costing of road transport
wrong.

Nonsense.


True - the tax on goods vehicles goes nowhere towards paying for the
damage they do to roads.

Oh, indeed, but no-one mentioned goods vehicles. Do moving goalposts
count as a transportation method? Besides, there's differential pricing
on rail, too.

really, the bulk of this thread has been about transporting goods, in
containers or otherwise.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

It's quite telling that when rolling stock needs to be moved around for
maintenance work or refurbishment, they often find it cheaper to move it
by road rather than rail.

SteveW


Sure your not referring to that on preserved railways?..

--
Tony Sayer

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:
Oh whoopee! What a plonker! You seem to be overlooking that it was
Harold Wilson who took a successful truck and bus manufacturer and
forced it into a shotgun marriage to the car industry that the unions
had successfully bankrupted, then let the unions carry on as before ...

You *really* should do some proper research. The idea that the unions
alone were responsible for the demise of the UK car industry is so far
from the truth as to be laughable.

Stokes was a simple asset stripper, in essence. Not in the least bit
interested in manufacturing.


Unions are a very good idea in any well run industry. Allowing management
a convenient way to negotiate etc with their workforce. As all the
successful companies know only too well.



Well a very few places where I've worked in the past they didn't have
Unions as they were very well run companies. And if a company is well
run there're shouldn't be a need for a Union thats just a needed
response to the **** poor management that sometimes still prevails...


--
Tony Sayer

In article
..com, harry scribeth thus
On Dec 23, 11:10*am, (Alan Braggins)
wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Clive
George wrote:
On 22/12/2011 13:17, wrote:

I can't give a figure, but passing through many villages in England
illustrated to me the figure is quite high. A helluva high percentage
of villages have been gutted of their local shops and amenities as
incomers tend to bulk-buy in the nearest town.
Not just incomers. All people are very sensitive to percieved value, and
will go to the larger shops even if the amounts they save are offset by
the cost to get there.

Or go to the larger shops for a wider range of choice, and also buy the
stuff they could have got locally because it's slightly cheaper and they
were going there for stuff they couldn't get locally anyway.

turning around. We can get a limited range of BETTER veg at the village
shop..at vastly lower overall prices.When diesel costs are factored in.

Even better and cheaper from the side of the road here, but the limited
range is usually potatoes or slightly different potatoes. (There is also
a farm that does great big nets of "horse" carrots for a quid, but they're
called horse carrots because they're big tough woody ones.)- Hide quoted text
-

- Show quoted text -

Best to grow your own as I do.
New Prius here BTW, nearly 100mpg. Plug in hybrid.
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/ecocar...brid%20electri
c%20cars.htm


Humm... Advertising standards authority anyone?..

Zero fuel consumption?...

I want one of they...




"The advanced battery technology allows the car to be driven for around
14 miles on its electric power alone with no tailpipe emissions and
zero fuel consumption.

Once Prius Plug-in Hybrid has reached the limits of its electric range,
it switches seamlessly to its full hybrid system, bringing the petrol
engine into play. This means the driver can avoid the range anxiety
associated with all-electric vehicles.
--
Tony Sayer

In article , funkyoldcortina
scribeth thus
On 20/12/11 10:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.


That's not true for the Prius. You still get better mpg than a conventional
petrol car on motorway trips, as once you're up to speed you can ease off the
pedal and the electric motor does most of the work to keep you at-speed,
requiring much lower power output from the engine.

So err, the electrical power is free of charge then;?....


--
Tony Sayer