Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:

In article , lid
says...
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
I'll assume you mean *don't*.
They must have rail lines and ignored them
Gosh you mean we ship stuff around in containers, even by rail?
[1] I though the luddite unions so beloved of the likes of drivel
saw such ideas off in the 70s.
Most is shipped by rail. More should be. The only Luddites was
the outdated Tory party. Thatcher who for spite outsourced
manufacturing to the Far East decimating UK manufacturing industry.
There wasn't much left by the time Thatcher arrived on the scene!

The Luddites had already exported the London Docks to Rotterdam and
our car manufacturing industry to Europe and the Far East. Ditto ship
building.

In the late 50s I watched as BR built a massive new marshalling yard
to handle the container traffic from Tilbury. Thanks to the dockers'
efforts, the trade didn't materialise and the yard laid idle. In the
meantime, ASLEF made the railways so unreliable that most rail users
had switched to road haulage by the time the container traffic finally
arrived.

At around the same time I recall a couple of extremely lengthy
disputes which brought the shipyards to a standstill. Both were
demarcation disputes.

One was about whose job it was to hold the bucket that caught the hot
rivet, ready for the rivetter to fit. The other was about whose job it
was to twang the string that made the chalk line on the steel plate to
show where it was to be cut.

A couple of years later, as the orders dried up and yards were being
closed, I recall the unions demanding that the government should do
something about it ...

... which is precisely what Maggie did. Although like many cancers, it's
rearing its ugly head again.

It will.

The Union/labour movement has been in retreat for 50 years, and its last
stranglehold is on education and healthcare.

But frankly, with education likely to be semi privatised (state funded,
not state owned) and the majority of medical staff being too smart to
fall for it, its actually dead on its feet.

Well not quite, it juts smells that way.

djc wrote:
On 22/12/11 00:06, Tim Watts wrote:

The real problem is getting over the mindset that a majority of big
employers like being in London, when they could operate just as well from
many random sites.

Which, really, is the way to solve this whole rediculous problem of millions
of people sitting on trains and in cars every day - get as many people whose
jobs permit working out of their houses - or in small satellite offices
dotted around. It's the way forward. Then the people whose presence is
actually required will have an easier time of it too.

This is the sort of thing that will not happen by itself - it needs some
incentive, such as taxing the hell out of city premises or something. But
that won't happen...

Removing subsidy from commuter services would do it.



they are the services that are NOT subsidised, in the main.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Railway anoraks need to understand, as I've said before, that
no mode of transport has an automatic right to exist. 150 years
ago trains were the bizz because there was no alternative. That
ain't true anymore.

Well the lines that are in use to London from Cambridge are very
heavily
used by commuter traffic and some freight passes through here
unhindered still...
Sure. I've used that line on many occasions. It's very busy a
lot of the time. I can't see the point of the Cambridge -
Newmarket line though.

That's because you don't live in Newmarket. Or indeed go to the
races...

Ive used that line a few times..quite a few people do queue up on
the platform in the morning..

However it fails the usual subsidised route tests..not enough
trains to be useful except if you are commuting at predetermined
hours.
Does it ever have more than one carriage? I've only ever seen it
at the level crossing at Six Mile Bottom.
I think its 2 or three car diesel units innit?

Well I think for the most part when I saw it there, it was just the one
carriage.

Rather than a guided bus..

:-)

I think these are they

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_170

In message ,
writes
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:50:41 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

Are you being funny or just mentally torpid?

Huge is never funny.

Wrong Hugh.
Quite
--
hugh

In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article
,
harry wrote:

On Dec 22, 8:53*am, polygonum wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 00:14:17 -0000, Tim Watts wrote:
harry wrote:

There are eyes on the poles and they are spring loaded upwards. The
wires are "8"section, there is a pinching device.
There was a long bamboo pole threaded under the bus for the purpose
ofhooking/unhooking wires.
Best laugh was when the bus went one way down a junction and the poles
went the other way. (Someof the junctions had automatic "points" but
sometimes they got out of sequence.
There was a manual ring for the conductor to pull to move the
"points" *on most junctions.

The old trollybusses in Riga (1997) were even simpler:

Flexible cable from each pole ran down to a sping loaded retractor spool
on
the back of the bus (think hoover cable rewind). To move the pole,
conductor
pulled on the wire. Very simple

There was some sort of hook on the pole and the vehicle which could be
used
to latch the pole down to if required.

And the trams in Riga have properly designed track loops at route ends.

Why? The driver just walked up to the other end in our trams?

The brand new trams they have in Geneva drive one way only and only
have doors on one side. So at each end they have to go round a large
space-consuming loop.

That's Swiss efficiency for you :_)
--
hugh

In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article
,
Tim Streater wrote:
Ha ha v. funny. Road freight is at least 80% of the total. Our rail
network strains to take the other 20%. To make much difference you'd
have to make that 60/40, that is at least a doubling of the amount
of freight on the railway. Could you kindly indicate which lines
you think it's gonna be on? Why do you think I was suggesting going
to four tracks as much as possible? That way the slow freight
could mix with the slow local trains.
Freight often runs overnight. As you'd see if you catch any late
trains round London. And that could likely be increased.
20% may not sound like much, but putting that 20% on the roads

cause chaos.

That 20% is already on the roads.
Could you explain the maths to me?

I'm not talking about putting an extra 20% on the roads, I'm talking
about taking 20% *off* the roads. So on the roads, you've gone from 80%
to 60%, a reduction of a quarter. Not massive but would probably help
congestion a lot. But to achieve that you've gone from 20% on the
railway to 40%, i.e., a doubling. I'm asking how that might be achieved.

But if most freight already runs overnight, there's a lot to be
said for adding the extra tracks so more of it can runs daytime too.
Adding track is pretty expensive. If not it would already have been
done
to reduce passenger overcrowding. But I don't think overnight freight
capacity is anywhere near maximum.

If you don't build HS2 you've suddenly got a ****ing great big pot of
dosh.

Virtual pot. It's all borrowed, or would be.
--
hugh

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:
One was about whose job it was to hold the bucket that caught the hot
rivet, ready for the rivetter to fit. The other was about whose job it
was to twang the string that made the chalk line on the steel plate to
show where it was to be cut.

And, of course, after debating this in parliament, all the tory MPs went
down to the kitchen to make their own dinner...

Ironically the demarcation in labour was invented by management in the
shipyards in the 20's
--
hugh

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Railway anoraks need to understand, as I've said before,
that no mode of transport has an automatic right to exist.
150 years ago trains were the bizz because there was no
alternative. That ain't true anymore.

Well the lines that are in use to London from Cambridge are
very heavily
used by commuter traffic and some freight passes through here
unhindered still...
Sure. I've used that line on many occasions. It's very busy
a lot of the time. I can't see the point of the Cambridge -
Newmarket line though.

That's because you don't live in Newmarket. Or indeed go to the
races...

Ive used that line a few times..quite a few people do queue up
on the platform in the morning..

However it fails the usual subsidised route tests..not enough
trains to be useful except if you are commuting at predetermined
hours.
Does it ever have more than one carriage? I've only ever seen
it at the level crossing at Six Mile Bottom.
I think its 2 or three car diesel units innit?
Well I think for the most part when I saw it there, it was just
the one carriage.
Rather than a guided bus..
:-)
I think these are they

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_170

Nah. These jobs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_153#East_Anglia

I thought those were now gone and upgraded..


I was interested to see the line goes to bury st edmunds as well..good
town as a change from Cambridge esp in summer..

Maybe they put on 2 or 3 car car raceday specials as well using other stock.

I am reasonably sure I've seen 2-car on the early morning commuter
service as well

The actual loss in net income from a 30K+ job in the city was less than
10k net.

I have at least two other friends who work as subcontractors entirely
from home.

It will happen because its cheaper.


What is needed is for crap managers who cant manage except by holding
meetings and waffling to be sacked, and crap businesses to fold.

And thats were the "fault" lies. They don't like being out of control of
their workforce and all seem to think that as their working from home
they'll simply skive all day..

This must change 'tho I don't think taxation is the right way to go
about it.

I've worked from home for years now and its bliss, no poxy rush hour
traffic queues......
--
Tony Sayer

Does it ever have more than one carriage? I've only ever seen it at the
level crossing at Six Mile Bottom.

I think its 2 or three car diesel units innit?

Well I think for the most part when I saw it there, it was just the one
carriage.

Yes for off peak services IIRC...

--
Tony Sayer

Of course they would ruin it by covering it with solar panels, but
that's the stupidity of Cambridge.

The real stupidity was developing the town centre with large shopping
centres. It should have been left what its best at a pedestrianised
small medieval town centre and then they ought to have had a decent ring
road system with the shopping etc out on that...

1) Was that how it was in Petty Cury previously? Before my time there if
so.


There is the Loin yard and they've added the Grange Arcade and over the
other side of town the Grafton centre...

2) They seem to be trying to do that on the Newmarket Road but good luck
travelling on *that* road in rush hour.


Newmarket road is screwed at almost -any- time of day now...



--
Tony Sayer

On 22/12/2011 13:17, wrote:

I can't give a figure, but passing through many villages in England
illustrated to me the figure is quite high. A helluva high percentage
of villages have been gutted of their local shops and amenities as
incomers tend to bulk-buy in the nearest town.

Not just incomers. All people are very sensitive to percieved value, and
will go to the larger shops even if the amounts they save are offset by
the cost to get there.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Freight often runs overnight. As you'd see if you catch any late
trains round London. And that could likely be increased.

20% may not sound like much, but putting that 20% on the roads
would cause chaos.

That 20% is already on the roads.

Could you explain the maths to me?

I'm not talking about putting an extra 20% on the roads, I'm talking
about taking 20% *off* the roads.

Right.

So on the roads, you've gone from 80%
to 60%, a reduction of a quarter.

I'm not quite sure of those maths either, but I get your jist. ;-)

Not massive but would probably help
congestion a lot. But to achieve that you've gone from 20% on the
railway to 40%, i.e., a doubling. I'm asking how that might be achieved.

It only takes a small percentage reduction in road traffic to make a big
difference to the traffic flow. School holidays are a good example. And a
small increase over normal can clog things up totally. As we will find
during the Olympics...

But if most freight already runs overnight, there's a lot to be
said for adding the extra tracks so more of it can runs daytime too.

Adding track is pretty expensive. If not it would already have been
done to reduce passenger overcrowding. But I don't think overnight
freight capacity is anywhere near maximum.

If you don't build HS2 you've suddenly got a ****ing great big pot of
dosh.

Indeed. If it ever gets built they'll go for airline security so check in
etc takes several times as long as the actual journey.

--
*A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it uses up a thousand times more memory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:
One was about whose job it was to hold the bucket that caught the hot
rivet, ready for the rivetter to fit. The other was about whose job it
was to twang the string that made the chalk line on the steel plate to
show where it was to be cut.

And, of course, after debating this in parliament, all the tory MPs went
down to the kitchen to make their own dinner...

Ironically the demarcation in labour was invented by management in the
shipyards in the 20's

Demarcation within the professions is of course rampant, as is the closed
shop. For the good of their clients, naturally. Not to keep fees high. Oh
no.

--
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Clive George wrote:
On 22/12/2011 13:17, wrote:

I can't give a figure, but passing through many villages in England
illustrated to me the figure is quite high. A helluva high percentage
of villages have been gutted of their local shops and amenities as
incomers tend to bulk-buy in the nearest town.

Not just incomers. All people are very sensitive to percieved value, and
will go to the larger shops even if the amounts they save are offset by
the cost to get there.

Or go to the larger shops for a wider range of choice, and also buy the
stuff they could have got locally because it's slightly cheaper and they
were going there for stuff they couldn't get locally anyway.

Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Clive George wrote:
On 22/12/2011 13:17, wrote:

I can't give a figure, but passing through many villages in England
illustrated to me the figure is quite high. A helluva high percentage
of villages have been gutted of their local shops and amenities as
incomers tend to bulk-buy in the nearest town.
Not just incomers. All people are very sensitive to percieved value, and
will go to the larger shops even if the amounts they save are offset by
the cost to get there.

Or go to the larger shops for a wider range of choice, and also buy the
stuff they could have got locally because it's slightly cheaper and they
were going there for stuff they couldn't get locally anyway.

turning around. We can get a limited range of BETTER veg at the village
shop..at vastly lower overall prices.When diesel costs are factored in.

The difference is that those who ARE already commuting might as WELL use
the supermarket since the journey is paid for already.

Round here we have a lot of locals and work from homers or off for 6
weeks touring' etc etc etc.


The difference is between 'dormitory villages' and 'real villages' The
real ones tend to actually have shops and facilities that people use..

tony sayer wrote:
Of course they would ruin it by covering it with solar panels, but
that's the stupidity of Cambridge.
The real stupidity was developing the town centre with large shopping
centres. It should have been left what its best at a pedestrianised
small medieval town centre and then they ought to have had a decent ring
road system with the shopping etc out on that...
1) Was that how it was in Petty Cury previously? Before my time there if
so.


There is the Loin yard and they've added the Grange Arcade and over the
other side of town the Grafton centre...

ITYM Grunge Arcade,Grasping Centre..None of which are worth a visit really.



2) They seem to be trying to do that on the Newmarket Road but good luck
travelling on *that* road in rush hour.


Newmarket road is screwed at almost -any- time of day now...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote in message
b.com...


"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

One train can take 50 trucks off the roads.

50 trucks can go to 50 different places.

You really don't get it. Rail can do all the long distance stuff and
then freight taken in smaller trucks to local destinations.


In a perfect world, yes. In this one, the cost (Money, and probably fuel
as well) of taking stuff off a lorry and putting it onto a train, then
doing the same in reverse is a lot more than just leaving it on a lorry,
and letting the lorry do the whole journey. Although Eddie Stobart
transport do put a lot of traffic for Tesco and Coca Cola on their link
from Scotland to Daventry, with one train journey replacing a couple of
dozen lorries. According to Wikipedia, the rail service is subsidised,
while the lorries aren't, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to run the
trains.

Rail is perfect for taking bulk stuff like coal from source to
destination on a fixed route. It used to be reasonable for carrying
small consignments on busy routes from station to station, until most of
the freight facilities were closed. Even when I worked for British Rail
in the early '70s, it was quicker and cheaper to send a lorry full of
stuff by road than to send a wagonload from Liverpool to London. One
day, rather than three or four, if the wagon didn't get lost.

On the other hand, sending five thousand tons of coal a day on a dozen
trains from a pit in Stoke-on-Trent to half a dozen power stations was a
doddle.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Tim Streater wrote:
You don't really expect drivel to understand this, do you? He's a
railway anorak, after all: one for whom the cost of running railways is
neither here nor there.

That's why I used simple language and personal experience. ;-)

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 15:21:00 -0000, wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:
One was about whose job it was to hold the bucket that caught the hot
rivet, ready for the rivetter to fit. The other was about whose job it
was to twang the string that made the chalk line on the steel plate to
show where it was to be cut.

And, of course, after debating this in parliament, all the tory MPs went
down to the kitchen to make their own dinner...

Ironically the demarcation in labour was invented by management in the
shipyards in the 20's

Not entirely sure they actually invented it. :-) But they certainly
exploited it.

Lay off the expensive skilled workers whenever you can. Saves loads of
money.

--
Rod

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:14:41 -0000, Doctor Drivel
wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article m,
"dennis@home" wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

One train can take 50 trucks off the roads.

50 trucks can go to 50 different places.

I have yet to see a Tesco with its own branch line.

drivel is expecting to lay branch lines to every Tesco, didn't you know?

The Tesco at Beaconsfield was built "over" a rail track. They built a
tunnel in a cutting.

Eventually. After causing major damage due to a collapse. Strongly suspect
that tunnel was rather more expensive (to someone) than was originally
expected.

--
Rod

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:18:36 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
Merton council (close to here) have all their municipal vehicles LPG
powered. Dustcarts, etc. Very noticeable by the lack of engine noise
and
exhaust smell, compared to the more usual diesel.

Unusual to have larger vehicles on LPG. Are you sure it's not CNG?

I'm not certain of that. All their vehicles had signs on the side saying
powered by LPG. I think.;-)


There's quite a number around - seems to be some specialist converters:

http://www.futurefueltechnology.co.uk/default.php

http://multifuel-technology.com/Default.aspx

--
Rod

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:04:57 -0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,
polygonum wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:14:41 -0000, Doctor Drivel
wrote:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article m,
"dennis@home" wrote:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

One train can take 50 trucks off the roads.

50 trucks can go to 50 different places.

I have yet to see a Tesco with its own branch line.

drivel is expecting to lay branch lines to every Tesco, didn't you
know?

The Tesco at Beaconsfield was built "over" a rail track. They built
a tunnel in a cutting.
Eventually. After causing major damage due to a collapse. Strongly
suspect that tunnel was rather more expensive (to someone) than was
originally expected.

Ah yes I remember that incident now. Still, that doesn't matter to
drivel. Cost is irrelevant, Captain.


And it wasn't Beaconsfield but Gerrards Cross. Still, that doesn't matter
to drivel.

--
Rod

On 22/12/2011 08:40, Doctor Drivel wrote:

But I see everyone forgets the Chevy Volt. In fact no one mentions it
except me.

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/cars/volt/

It isn't for sale in the UK. That web site says it'll be on sale in
Europe later this year though - which I guess means next week as there
isn't much year left.

Andy

On 21/12/2011 09:04, Neil Williams wrote:
One running up through the gears varies in efficiency (try driving a
car with an instantaneous MPG readout).

I have.

While accelerating the MPG is awful, because I am converting fuel into
kinetic energy.

While coasting the MPG is incredible, because I am using my kinetic
energy to overcome rolling resistance and air drag.

Neither number tells me anything about the engine efficiency.

(however you are correct, a diesel-electric with a generator and battery
set does have the opportunity to take the engine efficiency up a bit.
Not least because it can be tuned to run at one speed only)

Andy

In message , polygonum
writes
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:18:36 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
hugh ] wrote:
Merton council (close to here) have all their municipal vehicles LPG
powered. Dustcarts, etc. Very noticeable by the lack of engine
noise
and
exhaust smell, compared to the more usual diesel.

Unusual to have larger vehicles on LPG. Are you sure it's not CNG?

I'm not certain of that. All their vehicles had signs on the side saying
powered by LPG. I think.;-)


There's quite a number around - seems to be some specialist converters:

http://www.futurefueltechnology.co.uk/default.php

http://multifuel-technology.com/Default.aspx

I had one of the early versions of these systems on my 200TDi Defender.
The Savings you achieve depend entirely on the relative price yo are
paying for diesel and LPG. They are not LPG conversions in the way that
a petrol engine is converted, they introduce the propane into the air
intake and fool the ecu into reducing the amount of diesel needed.

We played around with it - and blew up the engine in the process. You
could achieve some quite good performance results if you put in enough
propane and ignored the emission and efficiency.

We used o find Range Rovers to annoy to pace ourselves against not
racing of course, that would be illegal on a public road.
--
hugh

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:


But the Volt can do 60 mile.

Even the ads don't claim that. Try 25 miles. That's what they claim at the
lower end. So you can bet it's an average.

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
(however you are correct, a diesel-electric with a generator and battery
set does have the opportunity to take the engine efficiency up a bit.
Not least because it can be tuned to run at one speed only)

But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed the
power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient. Drive
slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good results. As,
of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up and drive it a bit
harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a motorway hill - and it
becomes far less economical than a conventional car. As well as being a
pain in the arse to drive.

--
*Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
(however you are correct, a diesel-electric with a generator and battery
set does have the opportunity to take the engine efficiency up a bit.
Not least because it can be tuned to run at one speed only)

But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed the
power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient. Drive
slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good results. As,
of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up and drive it a bit
harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a motorway hill - and it
becomes far less economical than a conventional car. As well as being a
pain in the arse to drive.

yerrs. Its a classic storage resolution to demand variation. The pious
is supposed to usee the battery to get up to speed and the engine at
peak eff to stay there on motorways. Sadly the engine is no better than
any other engine at that optimal speed and having to carry around all
the storage is juts extra weight.

Its precisely the same as having windmills on the grid..and using a gas
engine to balance them. Nearly all the gains are wiped out by the
needful fluctuations in the gas engine, and the net result is cumbersome
and expensive and ultimately not advantageous

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...

That's why I used simple language and personal experience. ;-)

And no idea of economics whatsoever. Daily Mail reader.

"O" level economics, but it's hardly rocket science to work out costs
from published tariffs, even ignoring the massive subsidy that rail got
and still gets. Stobart's rail link from Scotland to Daventry is
subsidised by about £400,000 per year, from what I've read about it.

And the Daily Mail still has some of the best cartoon strips you'll see,
even if they did stop running Peanuts. Worth the 50p a day, even if you
don't read the news in it.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Dec 22, 11:15*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 22/12/2011 08:40, Doctor Drivel wrote:



But I see everyone forgets the Chevy Volt. *In fact no one mentions it
except me.

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/cars/volt/

It isn't for sale in the UK. *That web site says it'll be on sale in
Europe later this year though - which I guess means next week as there
isn't much year left.

Andy

Uses the same principle as a diesel electric locomotive. With a
battery to store recovered energy.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:

(however you are correct, a diesel-electric with a generator and
battery set does have the opportunity to take the engine efficiency
up a bit. Not least because it can be tuned to run at one speed only)

But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed
the power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient.
Drive slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good
results. As, of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up
and drive it a bit harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a
motorway hill - and it becomes far less economical than a conventional
car. As well as being a pain in the arse to drive.

Total ********!

Unlike you I have actually driven one.

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Dec 22, 11:55*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Andy Champ wrote:

(however you are correct, a diesel-electric with a generator and battery
set does have the opportunity to take the engine efficiency up a bit.
Not least because it can be tuned to run at one speed only)

But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed the
power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient. Drive
slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good results. As,
of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up and drive it a bit
harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a motorway hill - and it
becomes far less economical than a conventional car. As well as being a
pain in the arse to drive.

--
*Bigamy is having one wife too many - monogamy is the same

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.
The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Regeneration recovers potential and kinetic energy and stores it in
the battery.

Must be fiendishly complex, heavy and expensive.
It is an attempt to cover all bases.

On Dec 23, 8:40*am, John Williamson
wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...

That's why I used simple language and personal experience. ;-)

And no idea of economics whatsoever. *Daily Mail reader.

"O" level economics, but it's hardly rocket science to work out costs
from published tariffs, even ignoring the massive subsidy that rail got
and still gets. Stobart's rail link from Scotland to Daventry is
subsidised by about £400,000 per year, from what I've read about it.

And the Daily Mail still has some of the best cartoon strips you'll see,
even if they did stop running Peanuts. Worth the 50p a day, even if you
don't read the news in it.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

I see you don't read it either. It's been 55p for several years now.

In article
,
harry wrote:
But what speed do you set that at? That's the exact problem with the
Pious. The engine is tuned to run best at a particular speed. Exceed
the power it produces at that and it becomes horribly inefficient.
Drive slowly and with economy in mind and it can produce quite good
results. As, of course, can most other cars of that size. Load it up
and drive it a bit harder - like keeping up with the traffic on a
motorway hill - and it becomes far less economical than a conventional
car. As well as being a pain in the arse to drive.


You are missing the whole point. It is not a plug in hybrid in the
previous sense.

No I'm not. If you run an engine at a steady speed it produces a given
maximum amount of power. That can either be used to charge a battery or
drive the vehicle direct. If it is set to provide the maximum power
required for driving the vehicle direct, it will be horribly inefficient
when that maximum power isn't needed, if the battery is full.

The engine is not mechanically connected to the drive train. It's
like an electric car but you carry round a petrol generator to charge
the battery when required. Engine runs at constant speed.

Generator sets are horribly inefficient at low power outputs. If they were
very efficient at all times everywhere would generate their own
electricity.

Regeneration recovers potential and kinetic energy and stores it in
the battery.

Must be fiendishly complex, heavy and expensive.
It is an attempt to cover all bases.

Like all these things it is designed to get round US emission regulations.
With all the usual hype about performance and economy which is proved to
be a lie in practice.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
harry wrote:
The deep coal mine were closed as they could no longer legally be
subsidised by the tax payers.

It was NOT subsidised. Coal created economic growth. Coal provided the
energy to created electricity. The economic growth was cycled back to
get the energy. Understand that.

It was not economic because cheaper coal was available elsewhere.

Subsidised by slave labour or government to buy foreign currency.

--
*Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

harry wrote:
On Dec 23, 8:40 am, John Williamson
And the Daily Mail still has some of the best cartoon strips you'll see,
even if they did stop running Peanuts. Worth the 50p a day, even if you
don't read the news in it.


I see you don't read it either. It's been 55p for several years now.

Curses! My secret is out!

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Clive George wrote:
On 22/12/2011 13:17, wrote:

I can't give a figure, but passing through many villages in England
illustrated to me the figure is quite high. A helluva high percentage
of villages have been gutted of their local shops and amenities as
incomers tend to bulk-buy in the nearest town.
Not just incomers. All people are very sensitive to percieved value, and
will go to the larger shops even if the amounts they save are offset by
the cost to get there.

Or go to the larger shops for a wider range of choice, and also buy the
stuff they could have got locally because it's slightly cheaper and they
were going there for stuff they couldn't get locally anyway.

turning around. We can get a limited range of BETTER veg at the village
shop..at vastly lower overall prices.When diesel costs are factored in.

Even better and cheaper from the side of the road here, but the limited
range is usually potatoes or slightly different potatoes. (There is also
a farm that does great big nets of "horse" carrots for a quid, but they're
called horse carrots because they're big tough woody ones.)

On Dec 23, 11:10*am, (Alan Braggins)
wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Alan Braggins wrote:
In article , Clive George wrote:
On 22/12/2011 13:17, wrote:

I can't give a figure, but passing through many villages in England
illustrated to me the figure is quite high. A helluva high percentage
of villages have been gutted of their local shops and amenities as
incomers tend to bulk-buy in the nearest town.
Not just incomers. All people are very sensitive to percieved value, and
will go to the larger shops even if the amounts they save are offset by
the cost to get there.

Or go to the larger shops for a wider range of choice, and also buy the
stuff they could have got locally because it's slightly cheaper and they
were going there for stuff they couldn't get locally anyway.

turning around. We can get a limited range of BETTER veg at the village
shop..at vastly lower overall prices.When diesel costs are factored in.

Even better and cheaper from the side of the road here, but the limited
range is usually potatoes or slightly different potatoes. (There is also
a farm that does great big nets of "horse" carrots for a quid, but they're
called horse carrots because they're big tough woody ones.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Best to grow your own as I do.
New Prius here BTW, nearly 100mpg. Plug in hybrid.
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/ecocar...ric%20cars.htm

In article ,
Terry Casey wrote:
Oh whoopee! What a plonker! You seem to be overlooking that it was
Harold Wilson who took a successful truck and bus manufacturer and
forced it into a shotgun marriage to the car industry that the unions
had successfully bankrupted, then let the unions carry on as before ...

You *really* should do some proper research. The idea that the unions
alone were responsible for the demise of the UK car industry is so far
from the truth as to be laughable.

Stokes was a simple asset stripper, in essence. Not in the least bit
interested in manufacturing.

Unions are a very good idea in any well run industry. Allowing management
a convenient way to negotiate etc with their workforce. As all the
successful companies know only too well.

--
*Why is 'abbreviation' such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.