Lets have green public transport
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."


--
Adam

Lets have green public transport
 

"ARWadsworth" wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Odd that. From reading the article you'd think all they needed to do was
brake more. After all, that's all it seems to run on apart from when it's
doing long journeys. ;-)

Tim

Lets have green public transport
 

"Tim" wrote in message
...
"ARWadsworth" wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Odd that. From reading the article you'd think all they needed to do was
brake more. After all, that's all it seems to run on apart from when it's
doing long journeys. ;-)

Tim

Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is
clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be
smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in fact
green.

Paul DS.

Lets have green public transport
 

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 08:35:51 -0000, Paul D Smith
wrote:

"Tim" wrote in message
...
"ARWadsworth" wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Odd that. From reading the article you'd think all they needed to do was
brake more. After all, that's all it seems to run on apart from when
it's
doing long journeys. ;-)

Tim

Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is
clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be
smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in
fact green.

Paul DS.

If that is so it would use more diesel as the bus sits there not moving
with the engine running - could go on forever. At least a moving bus gets
to a destination eventually and can switch off.

--
Rod

Lets have green public transport
 

In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.

I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

--
*Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lets have green public transport
 

"Paul D Smith" wrote in message
...

Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is
clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be
smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in
fact green.

There is insufficient data to draw that conclusion.
A normal bus will drive using lots of diesel then stop using little diesel,
repeat.
The "green" bus will drive using battery and run generator using medium
amount of diesel.

Unless you know what the stop start ratio is and how much it runs the
generator you can't know its green.

It the prius problem, you can run a fully charged prius for a few miles and
claim its green, if you run the same prius for a hundred miles it uses more
fuel than a medium diesel car and it isn't green at all.

Lets have green public transport
 

I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on
the roof under a fiberglass hump,

wouldent trolley busses be even better? mind even the ones in zurich have a
small diesel engine on board, used for when they unhook from the power wires
to go into the depot/garage, the river starts a small diesel engine which
allows the bus to do about 5mph, not sure if it's a generator or directly
driving the bus,

Lets have green public transport
 

In message om, at
10:55:06 on Tue, 20 Dec 2011, "dennis@home"
remarked:
Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine
is clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it
must be smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus,
so it is in fact green.

There is insufficient data to draw that conclusion.
A normal bus will drive using lots of diesel then stop using little
diesel, repeat.
The "green" bus will drive using battery and run generator using medium
amount of diesel.

Unless you know what the stop start ratio is and how much it runs the
generator you can't know its green.

It the prius problem, you can run a fully charged prius for a few miles
and claim its green, if you run the same prius for a hundred miles it
uses more fuel than a medium diesel car and it isn't green at all.

You could look at the overall mpg. Which is claimed to be 11.6mpg
compared to 8.6mpg for earlier designs of hybrid bus and 5.8mpg for a
normal diesel bus.
--
Roland Perry

Lets have green public transport
 

In message , at 10:39:32 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634

"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later"
established.

Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.

And a London bus sends how much time running on Motorways, normally?
--
Roland Perry

Lets have green public transport
 

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message om, at
10:55:06 on Tue, 20 Dec 2011, "dennis@home"
remarked:
Of course the greeney in me has to point out that the diesel engine is
clearly incapable of moving the bus on its own which implies it must be
smaller and use less diesel than a conventional diesel bus, so it is in
fact green.

There is insufficient data to draw that conclusion.
A normal bus will drive using lots of diesel then stop using little
diesel, repeat.
The "green" bus will drive using battery and run generator using medium
amount of diesel.

Unless you know what the stop start ratio is and how much it runs the
generator you can't know its green.

It the prius problem, you can run a fully charged prius for a few miles
and claim its green, if you run the same prius for a hundred miles it uses
more fuel than a medium diesel car and it isn't green at all.

You could look at the overall mpg. Which is claimed to be 11.6mpg compared
to 8.6mpg for earlier designs of hybrid bus and 5.8mpg for a normal diesel
bus.

If that is under the same conditions and those conditions are typical of how
they are driven.

Even then they may not be green as its the total emissions over its life
that matter not just the bit where its driving about.
Then even if it does reduce the total emissions it may still produce more
emissions than an alternative.
There is no such thing as green only shades of other colours.

Lets have green public transport
 

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:10:16 -0000, "Gazz" wrote:

I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being on
the roof under a fiberglass hump,

Southampton introduced some approx 15- 20 years ago. I remember the
publicity when the installation was put in. ISTR that the equipment
was based on some used in New Zealand and as well as buses some
Southampton Council vans were equipped to use CNG as well.
I havn't been there for a year or so now and don't know if they are
still in service or were replaced by newer ones.

G.Harman

Lets have green public transport
 

In message om, at
11:58:14 on Tue, 20 Dec 2011, "dennis@home"
remarked:
You could look at the overall mpg. Which is claimed to be 11.6mpg
compared to 8.6mpg for earlier designs of hybrid bus and 5.8mpg for a
normal diesel bus.

If that is under the same conditions and those conditions are typical
of how they are driven.

That is what we must assume, on pain of such figures being exposed as a
fraud.

Even then they may not be green as its the total emissions over its
life that matter not just the bit where its driving about.
Then even if it does reduce the total emissions it may still produce
more emissions than an alternative.
There is no such thing as green only shades of other colours.

I assume you are referring to the carbon footprint of manufacturing a
complex vehicle like this. I agree that this should be factored into a
lifetime figure for a vehicle.

http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/energy.shtml suggests that the
manufacturing contribution for a bus could be as much as 30%, but if
that delivers double the fuel efficiency it's a win.
--
Roland Perry

Lets have green public transport
 

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:30:02 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later"
established.

Sounds like the driver was an idiot, not topping up the tank before
setting off, as is the norm for buses at the start of a shift/long
journey.
Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it
wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus
ran on Magic Pixie Dust.

Lets have green public transport
 

In article ,
wrote:
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:30:02 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later"
established.

Sounds like the driver was an idiot, not topping up the tank before
setting off, as is the norm for buses at the start of a shift/long
journey.

but he probably didn't start at a proper depot with fuel available.

Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it
wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus
ran on Magic Pixie Dust.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

Lets have green public transport
 

Lets have green public transport
 

wrote in message
...


Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it
wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus
ran on Magic Pixie Dust.


the article mentioned it running on brake dust at the start.

Lets have green public transport
 

Lets have green public transport
 

On 20/12/2011 10:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16244634


"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."

Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.

I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

Much less stinky too. Cambridge had some CNG ones in the 90s (might
still do, don't know), and though the smell was a bit odd there wasn't
much of it and they were much more pleasant to be around.

Lets have green public transport
 

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:47:41 +0000, dennis@home wrote:
wrote in message
...

Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it
wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus
ran on Magic Pixie Dust.

the article mentioned it running on brake dust at the start.

Indeed. That's why it also says that drivers are told to pull over to the
side of the road to recharge, because that's when brakes are most dusty.

Lets have green public transport
 

In message , at 13:49:49 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, Bill Wright remarked:
Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? The
overwhelmingly largest part of the electrical energy comes from coal or
gas burnt in a power station. Part of this energy is used to recharge
the bus overnight (they must do this or all the energy needed to move
the bus would come from diesel and they wouldn't be able to pretend
that was green).

If the design results in using half as much diesel, powered entirely by
that diesel (so no over-complication by overnight charging) then that's
a significant "win".
--
Roland Perry

Lets have green public transport
 

Bill Wright wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:30:02 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."
Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later"
established.

Sounds like the driver was an idiot, not topping up the tank before
setting off, as is the norm for buses at the start of a shift/long
journey.
Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it
wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus
ran on Magic Pixie Dust.
Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? The overwhelmingly
largest part of the electrical energy comes from coal or gas burnt in a
power station. Part of this energy is used to recharge the bus overnight
(they must do this or all the energy needed to move the bus would come
from diesel and they wouldn't be able to pretend that was green). But a
lot of it is lost in transmission and because the charger and the
process of charging and discharging a battery is very inefficient.

All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost
of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the
idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got
lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running
round like headless chickens, same as them.

Bill
a bit of it is coming from nuclear power at least.

Lets have green public transport
 

In article ,
Gazz wrote:
I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being
on the roof under a fiberglass hump,

wouldent trolley busses be even better?

The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lets have green public transport
 

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
Just like a Pious, then. Half decent fuel consumption in start stop town
traffic, but far worse than a conventional vehicle at near steady speed
motorway, etc, work.

And a London bus sends how much time running on Motorways, normally?

This one did and ran out of fuel.

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lets have green public transport
 

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost
of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the
idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got
lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running
round like headless chickens, same as them.

But the busses are just for you northerners visiting London, as you don't
seem able to keep away. Londoners drive cars.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lets have green public transport
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Gazz wrote:
I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks being
on the roof under a fiberglass hump,

wouldent trolley busses be even better?

The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets.

They would improve some..

Lets have green public transport
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:49:49 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, Bill Wright remarked:
Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? The
overwhelmingly largest part of the electrical energy comes from coal
or gas burnt in a power station. Part of this energy is used to
recharge the bus overnight (they must do this or all the energy needed
to move the bus would come from diesel and they wouldn't be able to
pretend that was green).

If the design results in using half as much diesel, powered entirely by
that diesel (so no over-complication by overnight charging) then that's
a significant "win".
True. But it won't.

Bill

Lets have green public transport
 

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

a bit of it is coming from nuclear power at least.

Well yes, the mix also includes other renewables.

Bill

Lets have green public transport
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost
of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the
idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got
lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running
round like headless chickens, same as them.

But the busses are just for you northerners visiting London, as you don't
seem able to keep away. Londoners drive cars.

Well you sit in them and wait...

Bill

Lets have green public transport
 

Bill Wright wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

a bit of it is coming from nuclear power at least.

Well yes, the mix also includes other renewables.


Sure. in homeopathic doses..:-)

Bill

Lets have green public transport
 

In message , at 16:58:59 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, Bill Wright remarked:
If the design results in using half as much diesel, powered entirely
by that diesel (so no over-complication by overnight charging) then
that's a significant "win".
True. But it won't.

Why not.
--
Roland Perry

Lets have green public transport
 

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Gazz wrote:
I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks
being
on the roof under a fiberglass hump,

wouldent trolley busses be even better?
The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets.

Not as much as how tram lines are a screwup.

My mate says that trolley coaches are the answer

Diesel whnn they cant and two wires when they can. Up the fast lane of
the M1. He used to work for a train company 'Just a lot of people who
never grew out of train sets: hugely expensive way to move stuff around:
roads much cheaper'

Lets have green public transport
 

In message , at 16:35:30 on Tue, 20 Dec
2011, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

And a London bus sends how much time running on Motorways, normally?

This one did and ran out of fuel.

Yes - two different problems: it's not designed for continuous high
speed running, *and* the diesel part ran out of fuel.
--
Roland Perry

Lets have green public transport
 

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Gazz wrote:
I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks
being
on the roof under a fiberglass hump,

wouldent trolley busses be even better?
The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets.

Not as much as how tram lines are a screwup.

My mate says that trolley coaches are the answer

Diesel whnn they cant and two wires when they can. Up the fast lane of
the M1. He used to work for a train company 'Just a lot of people who
never grew out of train sets: hugely expensive way to move stuff around:
roads much cheaper'

I can remember an article in Eagle (1950s) about a Swiss trolley bus with
an enormous flywheel to use for motive power when there were no overhead
wires.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

Lets have green public transport
 

On Dec 20, 11:39*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

They do in Switzerland and in parts of India at least.

Neil

Lets have green public transport
 

On Dec 20, 2:49*pm, Bill Wright wrote:

Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries?

Because you can put energy back into them when braking, just like a
lot of modern trains put energy back into the overhead wire (assuming
something is there to consume it) when they brake.

I don't believe there is any plan to charge the batteries overnight,
the diesel engine will do that.

Neil

Lets have green public transport
 

Clive George wrote:

Much less stinky too. Cambridge had some CNG ones in the 90s (might
still do, don't know), and though the smell was a bit odd there wasn't
much of it and they were much more pleasant to be around.

Brisbane was very fresh smelling - I put it down to all the busses and taxis
being LPG.

China is encouraging taxi LPG conversions too.

--
Tim Watts

Lets have green public transport
 

On Dec 20, 6:14*pm, charles wrote:

I can remember an article in Eagle (1950s) about a Swiss trolley bus with
an enormous flywheel to use for motive power when there were no overhead
wires.

The Parry People Mover, a curious little railbus thing used on the
Stourbridge Town to Junction shuttle train, uses a flywheel. It's
charged up by a diesel engine (one that'd be too small to move the
vehicle effectively on its own) and by braking. Not a dissimilar
concept, just a different way of doing things (though of course with
its own challenges).

Neil

Lets have green public transport
 

On Dec 20, 1:49*pm, Bill Wright wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:30:02 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

"It was later established that the bus had run out of diesel."
Sounds like the fuel gauge was broken, if it was only "later"
established.

Sounds like the driver was an idiot, not topping up the tank before
setting off, as is the norm for buses at the start of a shift/long
journey.
Of course, if the driver was a greeniephile/PR tosser, he/she/it
wouldn't be all that tech knowledgeable and probably assumed the bus
ran on Magic Pixie Dust.

Anyway what's green about running a bus on batteries? The overwhelmingly
largest part of the electrical energy comes from coal or gas burnt in a
power station. Part of this energy is used to recharge the bus overnight
(they must do this or all the energy needed to move the bus would come
from diesel and they wouldn't be able to pretend that was green). But a
lot of it is lost in transmission and because the charger and the
process of charging and discharging a battery is very inefficient.

All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost
of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the
idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got
lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running
round like headless chickens, same as them.

Bill

There are several possible technologies.
The whole thing however revolves around being able to recover energy
lost as heat in the brakes and engine when slowing down in a normal
bus, (ie regenerative braking) and having somewhere to store it.
(Battery)

Pointless taking such a machine on the motorway.

I supposeyou could make passengers get off and walk up hills and get
on at the top so making use of their potential enrgy.

Lets have green public transport
 

On Dec 20, 4:38*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Bill Wright wrote:

All this does is avoid a small amount of pollution in London at the cost
of causing a lot of pollution in the countryside. Perhaps that's the
idea. I've always thought Londoners carry on as if they've got
lead-poisoned brains. Maybe they want the rest of us to start running
round like headless chickens, same as them.

But the busses are just for you northerners visiting London, as you don't
seem able to keep away. Londoners drive cars.

I heard there weren't any Londoners left. Everyone there is from
Bombay.

Lets have green public transport
 

On Dec 20, 5:14*pm, charles wrote:
In article ,
* *The Natural Philosopher wrote:





Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
* *Gazz wrote:
I've oft wondered why they don't use LPG for busses? Virtually no
pollution other than CO2. Engines are much quieter too.

abroad it's fairly common to see CNG powered busses, the gas tanks
being
on the roof under a fiberglass hump,

wouldent trolley busses be even better?
The overhead cables spoil the look of the streets.

Not as much as how tram lines are a screwup.

My mate says that trolley coaches are the answer
Diesel whnn they cant and two wires when they can. Up the fast lane of
the M1. He used to work for a train company 'Just a lot of people who
never grew out of train sets: hugely expensive way to move stuff around:
roads much cheaper'

I can remember an article in Eagle (1950s) about a Swiss trolley bus with
an enormous flywheel to use for motive power when there were no overhead
wires.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gone. They had to stop frequently to spin up the wheel. There were
all sorts of problems to do with precession and other gyroscopic side
effects.