On May 23, 3:18*pm, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

Right. Really? I mean, really? Bugs build up a resistance to peracetic
acid?!

You would have to discuss that with the consultant microbiologist that
laid down the rules we had to follow and what disinfectants were
acceptable. I just know that we had to keep rotating them and were told
that was to ensure they remained effective.

So you don't know then. OK.

Not at all. Everything we made got a massive dose of ionizing radiation,
so we did not have to be quite so stringent about the bioburden as a
food preparation factory.

So you agree that they are not the same things with the same
requirements. OK.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
(Steve Firth) wrote:

Huge wrote:

On 2011-05-22, Andy Burns wrote:
D.M.Chapman wrote:

Proper cherry coke as well please (coke with proper cherry syrup)

Bleaurgh!
I'm not alone, then.

Nope, all of those cherry+cola drinks make me barf and yes that includes
you Dr Pepper.

That's the worst of the effing lot. All these diet drinks taste like ****e.

Exactly, If you want a low calorie drink, try tap water.....

On 23/05/2011 08:53, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 07:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2011 17:48:26 +0100, "Nightjar wrote:

The current owner uses wooden boards instead of plates, which I view as
microbiologically suspect, so I no longer eat there.

Might be a bad assumption depending on the timber how often they are
washed or replaced. Some timbers have natural bactericides unlike
plastic and you'll never clean down to the bottom of the knife cuts
in plastic.


If I get served on plastic plates, I expect them to be single use. As
for bactericides, when I ran a medical manufacturing clean room, the
microbiologist mandated a rotation of three different disinfectants, to
prevent the build up of resistant strains. I don't see that it is less
likely that would happen with a natural bactericide and, unlike
ceramics, it is not going to be easy, if possible, to clean wood of the
blood that oozes from a blue steak.

What are the names of the 3 disinfectants, Colin?

Dave

On Sun, 22 May 2011 09:32:24 +0100, The Medway Handyman
wrote:

On 21/05/2011 21:33, alexander.keys1 wrote:
On May 21, 3:47 pm, The Medway
wrote:
I'm interested in how this is going to work once its open Arfa.

What's it's USP?

How is it going to compete with the marketing muscle of McDonalds&
Burger King? Evem Wimpey?


Or even *Wimpy* )


We have well ard burgers down here - built by a construction company :-)

Out of old Wellingtons?

Derek G

On 23/05/2011 17:11, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 08:53, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 07:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2011 17:48:26 +0100, "Nightjar wrote:

The current owner uses wooden boards instead of plates, which I view as
microbiologically suspect, so I no longer eat there.

Might be a bad assumption depending on the timber how often they are
washed or replaced. Some timbers have natural bactericides unlike
plastic and you'll never clean down to the bottom of the knife cuts
in plastic.


If I get served on plastic plates, I expect them to be single use. As
for bactericides, when I ran a medical manufacturing clean room, the
microbiologist mandated a rotation of three different disinfectants, to
prevent the build up of resistant strains. I don't see that it is less
likely that would happen with a natural bactericide and, unlike
ceramics, it is not going to be easy, if possible, to clean wood of the
blood that oozes from a blue steak.

What are the names of the 3 disinfectants, Colin?

My production manager came up with a proprietary food area cleaner /
disinfectant that the microbiologist approved for daily use. The weekly
clean alternately used a hypochlorite wash or a wipe down with alcohol.
I never needed to know the composition or even the name of the
proprietary cleaner. I only know the others because I sometimes took
some for use at home.

Colin Bignell

On May 23, 8:13*pm, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

So you don't know then.

Do you?

I never claimed or inferred that I did, but I am not giving an
argument from authority, but rather asking you.

Can you point to anything that says it will produce a 100%
disinfection?

Yes.

Can you show it is used in that manner on wood?

The wood would be single-use only.

So you agree that they are not the same things with the same
requirements.

That is a logical conclusion from the fact that I said that food has
more stringent requirements.

It may have different requirements, but I will remain sceptical of the
relative stringent-ness of them until you can show me some evidence of
this difference. As it stands, I would consider a kitchen a pretty bad
place to do surgery, but a medical clean room would probably be A-OK
for preparing food. Giving sweeping statements like "food has more
stringent requirements" doesn't convince me of anything. Especially
after seeing working kitchens in various salubrious student ghettos.

A further logical conclusion from that and
the fact that we could not use wood anywhere, is that it is not a
suitable material for food use.

Well YOUR logic may well lead you to that conclusion, but (some, not
all) wood is fine for food use, otherwise it would have been outlawed
by the various money-collectors. Now you may not LIKE to use it, or
see it used, but that is a different matter.

On 23/05/2011 20:33, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 17:11, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 08:53, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 07:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2011 17:48:26 +0100, "Nightjar wrote:

The current owner uses wooden boards instead of plates, which I
view as
microbiologically suspect, so I no longer eat there.

Might be a bad assumption depending on the timber how often they are
washed or replaced. Some timbers have natural bactericides unlike
plastic and you'll never clean down to the bottom of the knife cuts
in plastic.


If I get served on plastic plates, I expect them to be single use. As
for bactericides, when I ran a medical manufacturing clean room, the
microbiologist mandated a rotation of three different disinfectants, to
prevent the build up of resistant strains. I don't see that it is less
likely that would happen with a natural bactericide and, unlike
ceramics, it is not going to be easy, if possible, to clean wood of the
blood that oozes from a blue steak.

What are the names of the 3 disinfectants, Colin?

My production manager came up with a proprietary food area cleaner /
disinfectant that the microbiologist approved for daily use. The weekly
clean alternately used a hypochlorite wash or a wipe down with alcohol.
I never needed to know the composition or even the name of the
proprietary cleaner. I only know the others because I sometimes took
some for use at home.

Thanks, I just wondered if 'Screen' was on the list.

Dave

On 23/05/2011 20:42, David Paste wrote:
On May 23, 8:13 pm, "Nightjar\"cpb\"@""insertmysurnamehere wrote:

So you don't know then.

Do you?

I never claimed or inferred that I did,

You don't think that:

Right. Really? I mean, really? Bugs build up a resistance to peracetic
acid?!

strongly implies that you do?

but I am not giving an
argument from authority, but rather asking you.

My authority is a professional microbiologist I no longer retain, so I
can give tell you what that microbiologist said in the past, but cannot
answer specific questions about areas that were never covered, which
includes the effects of peracetic acid.

Can you point to anything that says it will produce a 100%
disinfection?

Yes.

Then please do. I have never come across any disinfectant that makes
that claim and would be very interested to see it supported.

Can you show it is used in that manner on wood?

The wood would be single-use only.

Wooden plates are not single use.


So you agree that they are not the same things with the same
requirements.

That is a logical conclusion from the fact that I said that food has
more stringent requirements.

It may have different requirements, but I will remain sceptical of the
relative stringent-ness of them until you can show me some evidence of
this difference. As it stands, I would consider a kitchen a pretty bad
place to do surgery,

Probably a better place than many operating theatres short of those with
laminar flow HEPA filtration. However, I did specify a food preparation
factory, rather than just a kitchen.

but a medical clean room would probably be A-OK
for preparing food.

The only requirement is that the bug count is low enough for a weekend
spent in close proximity to a fairly active radioactive isotope to have
a high probability of not leaving enough alive to breed to a dangerous
level within the shelf life of the product. With food preparation, you
want it low enough that they won't breed in the food without the need to
zap it with several megarads of ionizing radiation.

Giving sweeping statements like "food has more
stringent requirements" doesn't convince me of anything. Especially
after seeing working kitchens in various salubrious student ghettos.

The fact that the standards exist does not mean all establishments meet
them, else Environmental Health would be out of a job.

A further logical conclusion from that and
the fact that we could not use wood anywhere, is that it is not a
suitable material for food use.

Well YOUR logic may well lead you to that conclusion, but (some, not
all) wood is fine for food use, otherwise it would have been outlawed
by the various money-collectors. Now you may not LIKE to use it, or
see it used, but that is a different matter.

The Food Hygiene Directive (93/43/EEC) and subesquent legislation
require that food preparation areas shall be easy to clean and, where
necessary, to disinfect. That effectively does outlaw it for food
preparation. I suspect that not covering the serving of food on wood is
an oversight.

Colin Bignell

On 23/05/2011 21:23, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 20:33, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 17:11, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 08:53, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 07:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2011 17:48:26 +0100, "Nightjar wrote:

The current owner uses wooden boards instead of plates, which I
view as
microbiologically suspect, so I no longer eat there.

Might be a bad assumption depending on the timber how often they are
washed or replaced. Some timbers have natural bactericides unlike
plastic and you'll never clean down to the bottom of the knife cuts
in plastic.


If I get served on plastic plates, I expect them to be single use. As
for bactericides, when I ran a medical manufacturing clean room, the
microbiologist mandated a rotation of three different disinfectants, to
prevent the build up of resistant strains. I don't see that it is less
likely that would happen with a natural bactericide and, unlike
ceramics, it is not going to be easy, if possible, to clean wood of the
blood that oozes from a blue steak.

What are the names of the 3 disinfectants, Colin?

My production manager came up with a proprietary food area cleaner /
disinfectant that the microbiologist approved for daily use. The weekly
clean alternately used a hypochlorite wash or a wipe down with alcohol.
I never needed to know the composition or even the name of the
proprietary cleaner. I only know the others because I sometimes took
some for use at home.

Thanks, I just wondered if 'Screen' was on the list.

That doesn't ring a bell.

Colin Bignell

On May 23, 9:36*pm, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

You don't think that:

Right. Really? I mean, really? Bugs build up a resistance to peracetic
acid?!

strongly implies that you do?

No, it suggests that I am surprised that there maybe bugs which have
built up a resistance to bleach and/or peracetic acid. But for the
record, I am not aware of any that have. I even went to the trouble of
asking my friend who works in a biological research facility which
requires as-perfectly-sterilised-as-possible environments. She wasn't
aware, either. Not to say that that is the be-all and end-all, we
could be wrong, and we reserve the right to be wrong.


but I am not giving an
argument from authority, but rather asking you.

My authority is a professional microbiologist I no longer retain, so I
can give tell you what that microbiologist said in the past, but cannot
answer specific questions about areas that were never covered, which
includes the effects of peracetic acid.

It's basically a blend of acetic acid & hydrogen peroxide. It is
recommended for cleaning food prep areas in many places. Whether or
not this includes England, I couldn't tell you.


Can you point to anything that says it will produce a 100%
disinfection?

Yes.

Then please do.

Fire.

I have never come across any disinfectant that makes
that claim and would be very interested to see it supported.

You asked for 100% disinfection, you didn't specify method. For a
chemical disinfectant, bleach is pretty much as good as anything,
according to my friend. Certainly for food use.

The wood would be single-use only.

Wooden plates are not single use.

They are after being burnt.


The fact that the standards exist does not mean all establishments meet
them, else Environmental Health would be out of a job.

Oh you'd be surprised by what gets passed by EH. Or rather, how little
being passed by EH means. It is basically analogous to the MOT for
cars in that respect, does nothing but show at one specified time,
that place was fit for purpose. IF food really did have more stringent
requirements, then they would be more active in checking & regulating.
But as I have read, you were referring to industrial food prep areas -
like microwave meal factories, I presume. I have no experience with
these places.


The Food Hygiene Directive (93/43/EEC) and subesquent legislation
require that food preparation areas shall be easy to clean and, where
necessary, to disinfect. That effectively does outlaw it for food
preparation. I suspect that not covering the serving of food on wood is
an oversight.

But it might not be. The risks may just not exist.

On 23/05/2011 21:23, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 20:33, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 17:11, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 08:53, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 07:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2011 17:48:26 +0100, "Nightjar wrote:

The current owner uses wooden boards instead of plates, which I
view as
microbiologically suspect, so I no longer eat there.

Might be a bad assumption depending on the timber how often they are
washed or replaced. Some timbers have natural bactericides unlike
plastic and you'll never clean down to the bottom of the knife cuts
in plastic.


If I get served on plastic plates, I expect them to be single use. As
for bactericides, when I ran a medical manufacturing clean room, the
microbiologist mandated a rotation of three different disinfectants, to
prevent the build up of resistant strains. I don't see that it is less
likely that would happen with a natural bactericide and, unlike
ceramics, it is not going to be easy, if possible, to clean wood of the
blood that oozes from a blue steak.

What are the names of the 3 disinfectants, Colin?

My production manager came up with a proprietary food area cleaner /
disinfectant that the microbiologist approved for daily use. The weekly
clean alternately used a hypochlorite wash or a wipe down with alcohol.
I never needed to know the composition or even the name of the
proprietary cleaner. I only know the others because I sometimes took
some for use at home.

Thanks, I just wondered if 'Screen' was on the list.

Dave

Most food industry sanitisers are based on quaternary ammonium compounds
-'quat' or QAC..

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Mon, 23 May 2011 19:32:21 +0000 (UTC), dmc@puffin. (D.M.Chapman)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:

Hershey's - the only time in my *life* I didn't finish a chocolate bar
was a Hershey's.

Is Hershey's the one that has a wierd aftertaste of vomit?

Or is that just me?

It's prolly the one that has filling of either blood / vomit or peanut
butter, if so it's supposed to taste that way.

Derek G

On Mon, 23 May 2011 12:42:56 -0700 (PDT), David Paste
wrote:



Well YOUR logic may well lead you to that conclusion, but (some, not
all) wood is fine for food use,

Not all foods and not for all periods of time. To steam Chinese
pancakes for 3 minutes in a bamboo steamer, or to serve a salad for 1
hour is a different prospect to storing uncooked chicken joints 28
hours.

otherwise it would have been outlawed by the various money-collectors.

Can't be worth the trouble of administering a seperate tax / penalty
on olive wood salad servers.

Now you may not LIKE to use it, or
see it used, but that is a different matter.

Overall, fashion trumps wisdom.

Derek G

On 23/05/2011 22:46, David Paste wrote:
.....
You asked for 100% disinfection, you didn't specify method....

I did, but you chose to chop the post up, so it was no longer obvious
that I was referring to your mention of paracetic acid.

There really is not much point in continuing a discussion with someone
who is simply out to score points by twisting the wording of a post.

Colin Bignell

On 23/05/2011 09:57, dennis@home wrote:


"John" wrote in message
...

WTF are "CAB" burgers BTW? Hamburger Union do that peculiar thing of
taking steak and mincing it, is that what you mean or do you refer to
some frozen patty of Cow's Arse Burger?

CAB is explained in earlier posts - read them.

While the acronym may have been brushed over there has been no explanation.

I had a quick look and it appears to indicate that the beef has more fat
in than typical beef, this may change the flavour, and some may like
fatty tastes. I don't and will avoid the stuff.

I also failed to discover what constitutes a CAB burger on the site. Is
it a marbled steak, carefully ground, or is it the bits left on the
bones after the steaks have been taken mechanically recovered?

Colin Bignell

On Tue, 24 May 2011 00:55:34 +0100, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere wrote:

On 23/05/2011 09:57, dennis@home wrote:


"John" wrote in message
...

WTF are "CAB" burgers BTW? Hamburger Union do that peculiar thing of
taking steak and mincing it, is that what you mean or do you refer to
some frozen patty of Cow's Arse Burger?

CAB is explained in earlier posts - read them.

While the acronym may have been brushed over there has been no explanation.

I had a quick look and it appears to indicate that the beef has more fat
in than typical beef, this may change the flavour, and some may like
fatty tastes. I don't and will avoid the stuff.

I also failed to discover what constitutes a CAB burger on the site. Is
it a marbled steak, carefully ground, or is it the bits left on the
bones after the steaks have been taken mechanically recovered?


Assuming spinal columns and eyeballs are forbidden (CJD risk), most
likely lungs, mesentery, udders, and gall bladders etc.

Derek G

On May 24, 12:46*am, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere
wrote:

I did, but you chose to chop the post up, so it was no longer obvious
that I was referring to your mention of paracetic acid.

There really is not much point in continuing a discussion with someone
who is simply out to score points by twisting the wording of a post.

But that was part of my point. You came in saying that wood was
unsuitable for food use. It maybe unsuitable for certain aspects, but
it isn't FLAT OUT wrong to use for ALL aspects. Twisting words, eh?
I'd urge you to make sure you are clear in the point you are trying to
make in future, to avoid such confusions.

On May 24, 12:12*am, Derek G. wrote:

Not all foods and not for all periods of time.

Indeed.

On 24/05/2011 08:44, David Paste wrote:
On May 24, 12:46 am, "Nightjar\"cpb\"@""insertmysurnamehere
wrote:

I did, but you chose to chop the post up, so it was no longer obvious
that I was referring to your mention of paracetic acid.

There really is not much point in continuing a discussion with someone
who is simply out to score points by twisting the wording of a post.

But that was part of my point. You came in saying that wood was
unsuitable for food use.

I actually said I choose not to eat somewhere that uses it for plates as
I consider it microbiologically suspect. Given that the food they serve
on it includes bloody steaks, I see no reason to review that decision.

It maybe unsuitable for certain aspects, but
it isn't FLAT OUT wrong to use for ALL aspects.

I don't recall claiming that. I do recall stating that it fails to meet
the requirements for use in food preparation areas and stating that I
think it is wrong to use it for plates in this restaurant. I would have
less concern if it were a vegan restaurant.

Twisting words, eh?

Indeed, you continue to do so.

I'd urge you to make sure you are clear in the point you are trying to
make in future, to avoid such confusions.

The point was quite clear - I stopped eating in a particular restaurant
because of concerns about the safety of the plates they were using.

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar "cpb"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote in message
...
On 24/05/2011 08:44, David Paste wrote:
On May 24, 12:46 am, "Nightjar\"cpb\"@""insertmysurnamehere
wrote:

I did, but you chose to chop the post up, so it was no longer obvious
that I was referring to your mention of paracetic acid.

There really is not much point in continuing a discussion with someone
who is simply out to score points by twisting the wording of a post.

But that was part of my point. You came in saying that wood was
unsuitable for food use.

I actually said I choose not to eat somewhere that uses it for plates as I
consider it microbiologically suspect. Given that the food they serve on
it includes bloody steaks, I see no reason to review that decision.

It maybe unsuitable for certain aspects, but
it isn't FLAT OUT wrong to use for ALL aspects.

I don't recall claiming that. I do recall stating that it fails to meet
the requirements for use in food preparation areas and stating that I
think it is wrong to use it for plates in this restaurant. I would have
less concern if it were a vegan restaurant.

Twisting words, eh?

Indeed, you continue to do so.

I'd urge you to make sure you are clear in the point you are trying to
make in future, to avoid such confusions.

The point was quite clear - I stopped eating in a particular restaurant
because of concerns about the safety of the plates they were using.

Colin Bignell

How does the unsuitability stack up with butchers' blocks ? They have all
manner of different raw meats and offal cut up and chopped on them, which I
would have thought was a potential microbiological hazard, if they could not
be properly cleaned. Surely, if EH have no problem with this, they would not
be justified anyway, in having any problem with wooden serving platters,
given that they were made from a 'suitable' wood ? Or are butchers' blocks
some kind of 'special case' EH-wise ?

Arfa

On 24/05/2011 09:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:

I actually said I choose not to eat somewhere that uses it for plates as
I consider it microbiologically suspect. Given that the food they serve
on it includes bloody steaks, I see no reason to review that decision.

Isn't the problem if it's left? I'll assume the plates are at least
nominally clean, so at worst there's a few bacteria hiding in a cut.
Steak arrives, bacteria go "yum!". Fortunately punter goes "yum" too, so
before the bacteria have had a chance to build up to a dangerous level,
the food is in the stomach.

This is all guesswork BTW, and I'm trying to avoid your conversation
about clean rooms...

The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 23/05/2011 21:23, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 20:33, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 17:11, Dave wrote:
On 23/05/2011 08:53, Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 23/05/2011 07:55, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 22 May 2011 17:48:26 +0100, "Nightjar wrote:

The current owner uses wooden boards instead of plates, which I
view as
microbiologically suspect, so I no longer eat there.

Might be a bad assumption depending on the timber how often they are
washed or replaced. Some timbers have natural bactericides unlike
plastic and you'll never clean down to the bottom of the knife cuts
in plastic.


If I get served on plastic plates, I expect them to be single use. As
for bactericides, when I ran a medical manufacturing clean room, the
microbiologist mandated a rotation of three different disinfectants, to
prevent the build up of resistant strains. I don't see that it is less
likely that would happen with a natural bactericide and, unlike
ceramics, it is not going to be easy, if possible, to clean wood of the
blood that oozes from a blue steak.

What are the names of the 3 disinfectants, Colin?

My production manager came up with a proprietary food area cleaner /
disinfectant that the microbiologist approved for daily use. The weekly
clean alternately used a hypochlorite wash or a wipe down with alcohol.
I never needed to know the composition or even the name of the
proprietary cleaner. I only know the others because I sometimes took
some for use at home.

Thanks, I just wondered if 'Screen' was on the list.

Dave

Most food industry sanitisers are based on quaternary ammonium compounds -'quat' or QAC..

The majority that I have used have been based on Chloramine-T.

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

How does the unsuitability stack up with butchers' blocks ? They have all
manner of different raw meats and offal cut up and chopped on them, which
I would have thought was a potential microbiological hazard, if they could
not be properly cleaned. Surely, if EH have no problem with this, they
would not be justified anyway, in having any problem with wooden serving
platters, given that they were made from a 'suitable' wood ? Or are
butchers' blocks some kind of 'special case' EH-wise ?

Have you ever cleaned a butchers block?
I have and its a job and a half if its done correctly.
You scrape the top surface off, removing all the blood and guts and the top
surface and then you wipe it down.
That is why they are always curved in odd ways as they get scrapped
unevenly.

On May 22, 2:04*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in ...





On 21/05/2011 21:33, alexander.keys1 wrote:
On May 21, 3:47 pm, The Medway
wrote:
I'm interested in how this is going to work once its open Arfa.

What's it's USP?

How is it going to compete with the marketing muscle of McDonalds&
Burger King? *Evem Wimpey?

Or even **Wimpy* )

There are a lot of low-budget fast food chains, many of them with
"chicken" somewhere in the name (and I don't mean KFC) that manage
without marketing.

They may 'manage' with less marketing.

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk

OK. Lots of comments there. The USP is that it is based on the American
model of such establishments, in that it provides a quality take out meal,
using only quality ingredients such as CAB burgers. These are cooked on a
proper chargrill, which produces a flavour very similar to that of a
charcoal barbecue. There is no need to compete with the likes of Micky D's
or BK. They provide a perfectly acceptable but bottom end takeaway
experience. Our enterprise will provide a high quality meal at a price
comparable with your high street Indian or Chinese takeaway.

For the last seven years, we have owned and operated two cafes. These
similarly used only top quality ingredients, and never compromised on this.
We were not as cheap as a roadside greasy spoon, but we did not cater to the
same market as they do. We packed both of them on a daily basis, and no one
ever mentioned the prices. Recession or not, there are still plenty of
people out there prepared to pay a bit extra to get a quality product and
eating experience.

Tonight, we went out to eat at a local TGIs. They too use CAB burgers, and
chargrill them. They are on the same complex as a Micky D's, a KFC and a BK,
but they do not have any problem selling their burgers. The place was
packed, and almost everyone was eating burgers, so we are confident that
there is a demand for our product. Also, we have stayed in touch with many
of our previous regular customers, and they all cannot wait for us to open.

In article , Arfa Daily wrote:
On May 21, 3:47 pm, The Medway
wrote:
I'm interested in how this is going to work once its open Arfa.

What's it's USP?

How is it going to compete with the marketing muscle of McDonalds&
Burger King? Evem Wimpey?
[...]
OK. Lots of comments there. The USP is that it is based on the American
model of such establishments, in that it provides a quality take out meal,
using only quality ingredients such as CAB burgers. These are cooked on a
proper chargrill, which produces a flavour very similar to that of a
charcoal barbecue. There is no need to compete with the likes of Micky D's
or BK.
[...]
As well as this, there is a similar establishment in a town 15 miles away,
which recently celebrated 30 years, and we have been going there all that
time.

Gourmet Burger Kitchen haven't been going that long, but also back up the
idea that there's more to the burger market than McD and BK. (Being a
franchise changes the marketing situation though.)

On 23 May 2011 13:26:58 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2011-05-23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:

On 2011-05-23, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2011 01:51:40 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

It's Certified Angus Beef.

What are you going to offer those that don't eat lumps of of mashed
up dead animal?

Sympathy.

They won't even get that from me. Incredulity perhaps.

Yes, "sympathy" was the wrong word. "Derision", perhaps?

Not eating meat is an unnatural act for an omnivore.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Tue, 24 May 2011 15:38:06 +0100, PeterC
wrote:


What are you going to offer those that don't eat lumps of of mashed
up dead animal?

Sympathy.

They won't even get that from me. Incredulity perhaps.

Yes, "sympathy" was the wrong word. "Derision", perhaps?

Not eating meat is an unnatural act for an omnivore.

We're doomed then. Before you can say "Mantlebum" it'll be compulsory.

Derek G

On 23/05/2011 23:53, Derek G. wrote:
Is Hershey's the one that has a wierd aftertaste of vomit?

Or is that just me?

It's prolly the one that has filling of either blood / vomit or peanut
butter, if so it's supposed to taste that way.


Ye wanna try their mint and chocolate flavoured version of Angel Delight
- or advisely not for ye will deliver a carrot topped pavement pizza
quite readily (sorry) after imbiding some of that artificial
strangeness. Also their Jelly (as in Jelly & Ice-Cream) tastes rather,
er, different. So much so, that ye have to eat something foul to reset
the balence.

Better plan, stick to the Donuts.

--
Adrian C

"Lino expert" wrote in message
...
On May 22, 2:04 am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
...





On 21/05/2011 21:33, alexander.keys1 wrote:
On May 21, 3:47 pm, The Medway
wrote:
I'm interested in how this is going to work once its open Arfa.

What's it's USP?

How is it going to compete with the marketing muscle of McDonalds&
Burger King? Evem Wimpey?

Or even *Wimpy* )

There are a lot of low-budget fast food chains, many of them with
"chicken" somewhere in the name (and I don't mean KFC) that manage
without marketing.

They may 'manage' with less marketing.

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk

OK. Lots of comments there. The USP is that it is based on the American
model of such establishments, in that it provides a quality take out
meal,
using only quality ingredients such as CAB burgers. These are cooked on a
proper chargrill, which produces a flavour very similar to that of a
charcoal barbecue. There is no need to compete with the likes of Micky
D's
or BK. They provide a perfectly acceptable but bottom end takeaway
experience. Our enterprise will provide a high quality meal at a price
comparable with your high street Indian or Chinese takeaway.

For the last seven years, we have owned and operated two cafes. These
similarly used only top quality ingredients, and never compromised on
this.
We were not as cheap as a roadside greasy spoon, but we did not cater to
the
same market as they do. We packed both of them on a daily basis, and no
one
ever mentioned the prices. Recession or not, there are still plenty of
people out there prepared to pay a bit extra to get a quality product and
eating experience.

Tonight, we went out to eat at a local TGIs. They too use CAB burgers,
and
chargrill them. They are on the same complex as a Micky D's, a KFC and a
BK,
but they do not have any problem selling their burgers. The place was
packed, and almost everyone was eating burgers, so we are confident that
there is a demand for our product. Also, we have stayed in touch with
many
of our previous regular customers, and they all cannot wait for us to
open.

As well as this, there is a similar establishment in a town 15 miles
away,
which recently celebrated 30 years, and we have been going there all that
time. It has been owned by the same guy from day one, and he has done
very
well from it, and continues to do so. He too uses only quality
ingredients
to produce a superior product. He is on a main road that is wall to wall
takeaways and pubs for about 2 miles, and he has never had any problem
competing.

For sure, for our model to work, location is key. The place that we
finally
found, is located on a retail park, and the key features for us were the
presence of a chip shop and a Chinese, and a Co-op store that heaves non
stop until it closes at 11pm. Across the road is a large pub, and the
road
that goes right past the complex, leads to a large industrial estate. On
top
of this, the park is surrounded on three sides by huge housing estates.

As much consideration as possible has gone into the business model and
projections, and we are confident, given the fact that we have had
successful family run food businesses for many years, that we can make
this
work. Of course, we don't have a crystal ball, and it could all go pear
shaped. In a few weeks when get the place open, we'll see, I guess. I'll
let
you all know how it's going .... ! :-)

Arfa- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good luck with it...and if you're having a neon sign advertising your
burgers as being Angus, may your "g" never dim!
c",)


LOL ! and thanks for the good wishes.

Arfa

"Alan Braggins" wrote in message
...
In article , Arfa Daily wrote:
On May 21, 3:47 pm, The Medway
wrote:
I'm interested in how this is going to work once its open Arfa.

What's it's USP?

How is it going to compete with the marketing muscle of McDonalds&
Burger King? Evem Wimpey?
[...]
OK. Lots of comments there. The USP is that it is based on the American
model of such establishments, in that it provides a quality take out meal,
using only quality ingredients such as CAB burgers. These are cooked on a
proper chargrill, which produces a flavour very similar to that of a
charcoal barbecue. There is no need to compete with the likes of Micky D's
or BK.
[...]
As well as this, there is a similar establishment in a town 15 miles away,
which recently celebrated 30 years, and we have been going there all that
time.

Gourmet Burger Kitchen haven't been going that long, but also back up the
idea that there's more to the burger market than McD and BK. (Being a
franchise changes the marketing situation though.)

There's a GBK near where my daughter attended university in Kingston on
Thames. Oddly, as I like decent burgers, I didn't actually take to their
menu. It was just a tad *too* gourmet for me ... I don't know whether or not
it is a 'fixed' menu dictated by the franchisers, or whether the franchisees
are free to alter it to their own tastes. It is the only one I've seen, so I
don't know whether the menu varies between individual outlets.

I'm not too sure that I would want to take on a franchise. They can be a bit
rigid, so although it's *your* business on paper, in practice, it's still
theirs because of the control they exert over the way it is presented and
marketed. I think for me, that would be a bit too stifling. At least one of
the Micky Ds near me is a franchise rather than company store. Two of my
kids worked there in the holidays and when in sixth form, and I can remember
them talking about how the owner had to take part in all the promotions that
the company stores had, but was not free to offer his own promotions with
out express approval from the company.

Arfa

Arfa

In article , Arfa Daily wrote:
"Alan Braggins" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Arfa Daily wrote:
On May 21, 3:47 pm, The Medway
wrote:
I'm interested in how this is going to work once its open Arfa.

What's it's USP?

How is it going to compete with the marketing muscle of McDonalds&
Burger King? Evem Wimpey?
[...]
OK. Lots of comments there. The USP is that it is based on the American
model of such establishments, in that it provides a quality take out meal,
using only quality ingredients such as CAB burgers. These are cooked on a
proper chargrill, which produces a flavour very similar to that of a
charcoal barbecue. There is no need to compete with the likes of Micky D's
or BK.
[...]
As well as this, there is a similar establishment in a town 15 miles away,
which recently celebrated 30 years, and we have been going there all that
time.

Gourmet Burger Kitchen haven't been going that long, but also back up the
idea that there's more to the burger market than McD and BK. (Being a
franchise changes the marketing situation though.)

There's a GBK near where my daughter attended university in Kingston on
Thames. Oddly, as I like decent burgers, I didn't actually take to their
menu. It was just a tad *too* gourmet for me ... I don't know whether or not
it is a 'fixed' menu dictated by the franchisers, or whether the franchisees
are free to alter it to their own tastes. It is the only one I've seen, so I
don't know whether the menu varies between individual outlets.

There's a menu on their web site that doesn't make any mention of
individual variation, so I suspect it's fixed centrally:
http://www.gbk.co.uk/menu/burgers/
(Says "100% Aberdeen Angus", I don't know if that's different in practice
from your Certified Angus or not.)

I wasn't trying to suggest you should copy them or become a franchisee,
just another example of burgers that aren't competing directly with
the McDonalds end of things.

"Alan Braggins" wrote in message
...


(Says "100% Aberdeen Angus", I don't know if that's different in practice
from your Certified Angus or not.)

In theory it means that they only use meat from Aberdeen Angus cattle.
Certified Angus doesn't mean they use Aberdeen Angus but they may.

On Tue, 24 May 2011 18:43:21 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

Gourmet Burger Kitchen ...

Hmm, that sounds like it's going to be overpriced and I haven't even
ever seen one. Think I prefer Arfa's approach.

I remember a really good cafe/bar (about 20 years ago) where they did
some very nice burgers in various varieties. I really liked the...Burger
Provencale! I used to stay near there when I was on courses in Reading -
the place was in old Basingstoke. Think it was called Jozefs...

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In message , PeterC
writes
On 23 May 2011 13:26:58 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2011-05-23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:

On 2011-05-23, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2011 01:51:40 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

It's Certified Angus Beef.

What are you going to offer those that don't eat lumps of of mashed
up dead animal?

Sympathy.

They won't even get that from me. Incredulity perhaps.

Yes, "sympathy" was the wrong word. "Derision", perhaps?

Not eating meat is an unnatural act for an omnivore.

No it isn't.
--
Chris French

On 22/05/2011 00:33, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 21/05/2011 21:33, alexander.keys1 wrote:
On May 21, 3:47 pm, The Medway
wrote:
I'm interested in how this is going to work once its open Arfa.

What's it's USP?

How is it going to compete with the marketing muscle of McDonalds&
Burger King? Evem Wimpey?


Or even *Wimpy* )


If you're correcting typos, you could also sort out your 'it's' and your
'its'.

I think you managed to get them all wrong in your original post!

On May 24, 9:15*pm, Tim Streater wrote:

ITYM imply. Infer means something different.

F'rinstance, you're inferring that he implied it.

You're quite right, and I shall accept my punishment gracefully!

On 24/05/2011 21:42, chris French wrote:
In message , PeterC
writes
On 23 May 2011 13:26:58 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2011-05-23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:

On 2011-05-23, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 23 May 2011 01:51:40 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

It's Certified Angus Beef.

What are you going to offer those that don't eat lumps of of mashed
up dead animal?

Sympathy.

They won't even get that from me. Incredulity perhaps.

Yes, "sympathy" was the wrong word. "Derision", perhaps?

Not eating meat is an unnatural act for an omnivore.

No it isn't.

If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Tue, 24 May 2011 23:19:13 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:


If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?

Well there is that. But I'll have more sympathy for vegetarians
("fusspots" in my book), the day that the following is possible: If such
come to eat here, I'm supposed to provide non-meat fare. Well, how about
I go to their house - can I expect to be provided with a nice lamb
steak? After all, it's a requirement of my diet.

Non sequitur.

Is it really a _requirement_ of your diet that you eat lamb? That's
exactly what you're saying...

--
Frank Erskine

On Tue, 24 May 2011 23:56:42 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 23:19:13 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,
The Medway Handyman wrote:


If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?

Well there is that. But I'll have more sympathy for vegetarians
("fusspots" in my book), the day that the following is possible: If such
come to eat here, I'm supposed to provide non-meat fare. Well, how about
I go to their house - can I expect to be provided with a nice lamb
steak? After all, it's a requirement of my diet.

Non sequitur.

Is it really a _requirement_ of your diet that you eat lamb? That's
exactly what you're saying...

Oh come come come. You can do better than that. Answer the *substance*
of my point.

I just did. _Think_ about it.

--
Frank Erskine

On Tue, 24 May 2011 14:34:49 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote:


Assuming spinal columns and eyeballs are forbidden (CJD risk), most
likely lungs, mesentery, udders, and gall bladders etc.

And Americans are squeamish about haggis and black pudding ...


IIAC the Americans have something called Pennsylvania Scrabble. Which
AIUI is made of minced guts a bit like haggis without the skin.

In fact I find ordinary chain hotel breakfasts quite gruesome
including as they do such delights as "**** on Shingle" and "Sausage
gravy" which is the grease rendered out of a days sausages, thickened
with cornflour to make a heavy greyish "white" sauce. You use it to
soften your "biscuits".

Michel Roux eat your heart out.

Derek G