Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What would be the range of a Ferrari when it does 130mph
continuously? At 130mph it will be in single figures, so not long at
all.
Another figure plucked from thin air. Since you're so good at quoting
other's figures please give a source for this one.


My jag did about 15mpg at 130mph, so about 280 miles range probably.

So not single figures from a heavy car with poor CD and a less than state
of the art engine?

Good CD and state of the art engine please.

Just an awful plot of stuff like aircon, supercharger, Getrag box and
torque converter, hanging off it.And tryes to absorb the 380- bhp.

The point was not that its vile on fuel consumption, but how MUCH that
consumption is a function of how its driven. My previous XK8, as opposed
to the XKR (only difference is the supercharger, and even fatter tyres)
would if drivcen never more than 70 and ceraflly, turn in as much as
27mpg. The XKR only ever managed 24..there is a LOT of rolling
resistance on tyres designed to corner a 2 ton car at 1g..

I used to be able to get better than 50mpg out of a 1970's spitfire
1300, driven carefully and below 60mph. Not that I ever did that more
than once, when 2" of snow on the ground necessitated it.

Todays fat soft tyres and larger than needed engines (makes for more
frictional losses at lower power) are very much against the economy.

Under about 55mph the CD makes very little odds.

Leccy cars will score because they can be optimised for whatever driving
speed you choose, efficiency wise. They use nothing apart from cooling
fans when stationary, and instantaneous fuel consumption is as simple to
display as a ammeter in the dashboard . Add in regenerative braking
and you claw back quite a bit more as well.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

Modern generating equipment, transmissions, localised power stations,
modern batteries in cars etc, proves that is total balls.

You appear to be talking about efficiency of energy conversion, which is
not the same as the type or amount of pollution produced in converting
that energy.

Energy used to propel n amount of cars of same size x number of miles.
1. Using electric
2. Using petrol.

Also factor in the energy sued in the refining and distribution process
for car fuel too.

That is what it is about. EVs win. They also don't ruin millions of
lungs in towns and cities too.

However, I was not talking about energy efficiency. I was talking about
pollution levels and the fact that electric cars produce around three times
as much as an IC engine.

....
Current petrol engine efficiency averages 32%,

Nope. 25% You are on about peak.

32% is average for modern cars and that is what electric vehicles should be
compared with, as it is new car buyers who will choose which technology is
used.

....
although most generating plant in use is nearer 40% efficient.

The old stuff.

The majority of the generating capacity is still in the older plant.

Transmission losses in the UK average around 7.4% and the non-zero charge
recharging efficiency of traction batteries is around 80-85%, although
that can drop off dramatically as the charge level approaches 90%.

Not with the Tesla. Read what they have done to make it viable and double
range.

If electric cars are going to sell in volume, they will have to compete on
cost, which means that most will use conventional traction batteries for a
very long time yet.

snip out of date stuff about EV efficiencies

The data was about six months old, but you would have to snip it, as it
showed that electric vehicles have about the same overall efficiency as a
petrol car, which gives no reason to accept the higher levels of pollution
involved in powering them.

Colin Bignell

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

However..consider.

1/. Service costs. There is virtually nothing to wear out on an
electric car - brake pads/discs/tyres are it, really.

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake regen
does it all.

Delusional.

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

Modern generating equipment, transmissions, localised power stations,
modern batteries in cars etc, proves that is total balls.

You appear to be talking about efficiency of energy conversion, which is
not the same as the type or amount of pollution produced in converting
that energy.

Energy used to propel n amount of cars of same size x number of miles.
1. Using electric
2. Using petrol.

Also factor in the energy sued in the refining and distribution process
for car fuel too.

That is what it is about. EVs win. They also don't ruin millions of
lungs in towns and cities too.

However, I was not talking about energy efficiency. I was talking about
pollution levels and the fact that electric cars produce around three
times as much as an IC engine.

THEY DO NOT!!! Read again. Don't go on outdated myths.

Current petrol engine efficiency averages 32%,

Nope. 25% You are on about peak.

32% is average for modern cars

Nope 25%.

although most generating plant in use is nearer 40% efficient.

The old stuff.

The majority of the generating capacity is still in the older plant.

It is gradually being renewed, do those figures are false as wehn EVs come
in, in big way the new effuicient and "cleaner" plant will be almost in
place.

Transmission losses in the UK average around 7.4% and the non-zero
charge recharging efficiency of traction batteries is around 80-85%,
although that can drop off dramatically as the charge level approaches
90%.

Not with the Tesla. Read what they have done to make it viable and
double range.

If electric cars are going to sell in volume, they will have to compete on
cost,

The Tesla competes on cost. It is a Porsche type of car, which out performs
and costs the same.

which means that most will use conventional traction batteries for a very
long time yet.

You just made that up, and it is plain you are unaware of battery and power
generation efficiency and pollution cleaning advances.

snip out of date stuff about EV efficiencies

The data was about six months old, but you would have to snip it, as it
showed that electric vehicles have about the same overall efficiency as a
petrol car,

They DO NOT. And those figures do take into account the Tesla which power
management software gets far more out of a battery.

snip misguided comments

"Mike Dodd" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

However..consider.

1/. Service costs. There is virtually nothing to wear out on an electric
car - brake pads/discs/tyres are it, really.

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake regen
does it all.

Delusional.

You just made that up. I actually have a Prius and the pads are like new,
as they rarely get used.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake
regen does it all.

Delusional.

You just made that up. I actually have a Prius and the pads are like
new, as they rarely get used.

Plenty of pads for sale online. Must be upsetting for these companies
not to actually be able to sell them, then.

Interestingly, a few articles about brake failure on the Prius, too,
many of which the dealers can't reproduce and won't repair. I'd be
afraid, if I was you. Or near you.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Those figures are very poor - but it is a design dating from the '60s
and far too heavy with poor CD so the only way to get decent
performance was with vastly powerful engines.

No, its just an utterly over engined car - 4 liter superharged with an
auto box.

Design from the 90's actually :-)

It is still the basic XJ6 from the '60s. Later Jags are a great step
forward with lightweight construction involving ally body parts.

And supercharging is simply a brute force way to power - it always results
in worse consumption than an equivalent normally aspirated engine.

--
*It was all so different before everything changed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Todays fat soft tyres and larger than needed engines (makes for more
frictional losses at lower power) are very much against the economy.

Under about 55mph the CD makes very little odds.

Leccy cars will score because they can be optimised for whatever driving
speed you choose, efficiency wise. They use nothing apart from cooling
fans when stationary, and instantaneous fuel consumption is as simple to
display as a ammeter in the dashboard

If they decide not to fit vast tyres etc. And of course you don't need too
much heating or cooling which comes nearly free on an IC engine.

Trouble is luxury cars like this are bought by people who don't care about
fuel consumption - and are unlikely to buy an electric car unless it
matches it in all ways. So sumptuous (and heavy) interior, lots of sound
proofing including double glazing to keep extraneous noise out. 5 kW
heating and equivalent air-con so you don't have to wait for them to take
effect. Etc etc. All of which will not help the range of a battery car.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mike Dodd wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

However..consider.

1/. Service costs. There is virtually nothing to wear out on an
electric car - brake pads/discs/tyres are it, really.

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake
regen does it all.

Delusional.

The reason could be they're so slow and unsporting to drive they're always
driven gently. And only used in towns, so mileage is low.

--
*Always borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
I actually have a Prius
[snip further lies]

--
*Preserve wildlife - Go pickle a squirrel*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Mike Dodd" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake
regen does it all.

Delusional.

You just made that up. I actually have a Prius and the pads are like
new, as they rarely get used.

Plenty of pads for sale online. Must be upsetting for these companies not
to actually be able to sell them, then.

Interestingly, a few articles about brake failure on the Prius, too, many
of which the dealers can't reproduce and won't repair. I'd be afraid, if I
was you. Or near you.

You made all that up.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Those figures are very poor - but it is a design dating from the '60s
and far too heavy with poor CD so the only way to get decent
performance was with vastly powerful engines.

No, its just an utterly over engined car - 4 liter superharged with an
auto box.

Design from the 90's actually :-)

It is still the basic XJ6

Richard it is still kaka. An IC engine so kaka.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Todays fat soft tyres and larger than needed engines (makes for more
frictional losses at lower power) are very much against the economy.

Under about 55mph the CD makes very little odds.

Leccy cars will score because they can be optimised for whatever driving
speed you choose, efficiency wise. They use nothing apart from cooling
fans when stationary, and instantaneous fuel consumption is as simple to
display as a ammeter in the dashboard

If they decide not to fit vast tyres etc.
And of course you don't need too
much heating or cooling which comes
nearly free on an IC engine.

Richard, it comes free? Nothing is free. Tut, tut.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Mike Dodd wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

However..consider.

1/. Service costs. There is virtually nothing to wear out on an
electric car - brake pads/discs/tyres are it, really.

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake
regen does it all.

Delusional.

The reason could be they're so slow and unsporting to drive

Richard, they are great fun to drive. That is their appeal, beside just
about every other aspect of it. Tut, tut.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I actually have a Prius

snip senile Richard Cranium drivel

Sad but true.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Toshiba have announced a battery that can take 80% of the charge in 3
mins, full in 5. Tesla are looking to the new batteries that will
emerge in nest few years.

That only solves a part of the problem. You then need a recharging point
that can deliver the 100s or 1000's of amps required to take advantage
of the fast charge rate.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:59:34 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Stumbles" wrote in message

[1] Oh! that a certain contributor to this group were so enlightened.
Then he might be making something like this instead of drooling about it.

Would this contributor put wood behind shower mixers?

That's right: I was referring to the same contributor who thought a
brittle, hard-to-work and expensive material was more appropriate than
plywood as a temporary former for moulding plaster.

"John Rumm" aka Chav wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Toshiba have announced a battery that can take 80% of the charge in 3
mins, full in 5. Tesla are looking to the new batteries that will emerge
in nest few years.

That only solves a part of the problem. You then need a recharging point
that can deliver the 100s or 1000's of amps required to take advantage of
the fast charge rate.

Chav, not insoluable.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:59:34 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Stumbles" wrote in message

[1] Oh! that a certain contributor to this group were so enlightened.
Then he might be making something like this instead of drooling about
it.

Would this contributor put wood behind shower mixers?

That's right:

Well that contributor is a total pillock.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The reason could be they're so slow and unsporting to drive

Richard, they are great fun to drive.

Proves you've never driven one - or a decent car. They handle like a pile
of poo. The steering is unpleasant as well. Feels like a US 'small' car.

--
*'ome is where you 'ang your @ *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

Current petrol engine efficiency averages 32%,

Nope. 25% You are on about peak.

Waiting at a traffic lights with the running engine, the efficiency of a
petrol engine is 0% When an electric car is at the traffic lights it is at
100% efficiency. IC engine efficiency decreases very, very much at low
power demand. Diesel engines loose efficiency at low power demand too,
but not as much as a petrol engine. Both as still crap.

So when a 200hp engine has to deliver only 5hp for crawling in city traffic,
the efficiency is extremely low indeed. And they also pollute like hell and
ruin people's lungs.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The reason could be they're
so slow and unsporting to drive

Richard, they are great fun to drive.

Proves

Richard here is drivelling again.

snip senile drivel

Sad isn't it.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

How is that grotty town you live in?

The grotty town where Tiger Woods just won the latest Open, you mean?

Whereas you're living in that ******** known as Milton Keynes laughs

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 01:04:51 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

How is that grotty town you live in?

The grotty town where Tiger Woods just won the latest Open, you mean?

Whereas you're living in that ******** known as Milton Keynes laughs

No, really?

Oh well that would explain why he wants everyone to live in a ****box
constructed from ticky-tacky. He doesn't want to feel alone.

Hey, Drivel!

Milton Keynes is where the UK would get piles if it had them.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Waiting at a traffic lights with the running engine, the efficiency of a
petrol engine is 0%

In practice not if it's running air con or heating.

When an electric car is at the traffic lights it is at 100% efficiency.

In practice not if it's running air con or heating.

BTW - love the idea of a stationary car being 100% efficient. So a car
with no engine at all is 100% efficient...

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
So when a 200hp engine has to deliver only 5hp for crawling in city
traffic, the efficiency is extremely low indeed. And they also pollute
like hell and ruin people's lungs.

A petrol car with a catalytic convertor actually produces less pollutants
than exist in city air. The main by product of combustion is CO2, and that
doesn't damage lungs. Of course it may on the planet you come from.

--
*I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Waiting at a traffic lights with the
running engine, the efficiency of a
petrol engine is 0%

In

snip disjointed babbling

Richard Cranium is a David Hasselhof fan you know.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

So when a 200hp engine has to deliver only 5hp for crawling in city
traffic, the efficiency is extremely low indeed. And they also pollute
like hell and ruin people's lungs.

A petrol car

well more snipped illogical babble

Richard Cranium here is Matt Monroe fan.

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

How is that grotty town you live in?

The grotty town where Tiger Woods
just won the latest Open, you mean?

No. That was the Royal Liverpool Golf Club ina town called "Hoylake", not
the grotty one you live in.

Whereas you're living in that ******** known as Milton Keynes laughs

I am? New to me, although a fine city it is - unlike the grot one you live
in.

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...

No, really?

snip ****kickerness

A shame isn't it, the ****kicker is rambling on about well...****. Sad
isn't it.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Whereas you're living in that ******** known as Milton Keynes laughs

I am? New to me, although a fine city it is - unlike the grot one you
live in.

A city has a cathedral. MK's one is made of trees planted to resemble the
outline of Norwich Cathedral.

So a sham - rather like you, but probably in better taste.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Whereas you're living in that ********
known as Milton Keynes laughs

I am? New to me, although a fine city it is - unlike the grot one you
live in.

A city has a cathedral.

Richard Cranium, they don't.

snip senile babbling

Sad isn't it. Very sad. I hope has cleaned the doggy doos off his loafers.

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:47:29 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Waiting at a traffic lights with the running engine, the efficiency of a
petrol engine is 0% When an electric car is at the traffic lights it is at
100% efficiency.

Err no, it's at 0% efficiency since it is not converting power into motion.

****, but you're dumb.

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:48:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

A shame isn't it, the ****kicker is rambling on about well...****.

Milton Keynes, ****.

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:47:29 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Waiting at a traffic lights
with the running engine, the efficiency of a
petrol engine is 0% When an electric car
is at the traffic lights it is at 100% efficiency.

Err

snip ****kicking stupidity

Sad isn't it. There is not much that can done about him, it was the way he
was brought up.

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:

However, I was not talking about energy efficiency. I was talking about
pollution levels and the fact that electric cars produce around three times
as much as an IC engine.


In what way? I can only get to about the same as anything else, myself.


...
Current petrol engine efficiency averages 32%,
Nope. 25% You are on about peak.

32% is average for modern cars and that is what electric vehicles should be
compared with, as it is new car buyers who will choose which technology is
used.

Depends very much on what type of driving is under coinsideration.


If electric cars are going to sell in volume, they will have to compete on
cost, which means that most will use conventional traction batteries for a
very long time yet.


I don't think so.

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:48:58 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

A shame isn't it, the ****kicker is rambling on about well...****.

snip ****kicking drivel

Sad isn't it. Very sad indeed. He is best mates with Richard Cranium.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Waiting at a traffic lights with the running engine, the efficiency of a
petrol engine is 0%

In practice not if it's running air con or heating.

As far as exrtracting motive power, its 0%.

When an electric car is at the traffic lights it is at 100% efficiency.

In practice not if it's running air con or heating.

Its also 0%..it may be 0% of nothing of course. ;-)


BTW - love the idea of a stationary car being 100% efficient. So a car
with no engine at all is 100% efficient...


Indeed. 0/0 is anything you care to choose between 0 and 100%.

Mike Dodd wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

However..consider.

1/. Service costs. There is virtually nothing to wear out on an
electric car - brake pads/discs/tyres are it, really.

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake
regen does it all.

Delusional.

Agreed.

Mike Dodd wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

No replacement disc pads have been sold for a Pirus yet, the brake
regen does it all.

Delusional.

You just made that up. I actually have a Prius and the pads are like
new, as they rarely get used.

Plenty of pads for sale online. Must be upsetting for these companies
not to actually be able to sell them, then.

Interestingly, a few articles about brake failure on the Prius, too,
many of which the dealers can't reproduce and won't repair. I'd be
afraid, if I was you. Or near you.

Oh definitely, even equipped only with a bicycle.;-)