On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 11:30:52 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel one is clearly barking mad. A sad caes. very sad.

Sad.

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:59:45 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel need professional attention. The signs are there. Being totally
witless is one.

Witless.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 11:32:05 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel is clearly barking mad. Sad. very sad.

Mad.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 11:33:17 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:


Drivel is clearly barking mad. Sad very sad indeed.

Mad.

On 30 Jul 2006 05:29:18 -0700, wrote:

This is the last time I will respond you, as you constantly want
confrontation, that is your style. You thrive on it. If you haven't got
the message by now then get help.

How odd that IMM, Dr Evil, Dr Drivel, and many
others have all shared IP addresses from Energis.

Drivel, give it up, you're a clueless ****wit who can't even run a sock
puppet without making a laughing stock of himself.

wrote:

provocative one. Dr Drivel is head and shoulders above everyone here
in heating and water installations (sorry Ed he is),

Perhaps you are reading a different forum from the rest of us. But most
of the suggested solutions he posts here either don't work and are
poorly thought out, or achieve at three times the cost and complexity
what could be done by other means.

One thing that dribble seems to miss (and why Ed always seems to offer
more grounded and workable advice) is the need to keep things based in
the real world, starting from the actual situation and not some ideal
one, and staying within real budgets that don't allow for upgrading
gas/water mains at a whim or ripping and replacing complete working
systems.

and he will try to
get to the root of what the posters is after and come out with
something worth while,

Most of the time he seems to ignore the actual posters needs and use it
as a broadcast base for his current pet solution.

so only a fool can think he knows better and counters.

or the technically more clued up members of the group (which let`s face
it is almost anyone) point out some of the dangerous or expensive
shortcomings of his proposed solutions.

I use this group a lot Googling.

Why bother? If you only want to read drivel why not take it to email?

In whole interesting threads I will
see Plowmans only contribution is to respond to Dr Drivel in a
sneering, derogatory provocative manner.

A quick search on Dave's posts will reveal (dribble responses excluded)
that they are generally helpful and make a worthwhile contribution.

Very few if any posters can maintain any form of coherent and useful
dialogue with dribble for long no matter how erudite their other
postings. Draw what inference you want from that.

Very very few of dribble's posts contain any useful information - I
expect if you removed all the pointless retorts and insults, you would
be lucky to find more than a handful in the last month! The vanishingly
small number that he does post that do contain something worth hearing
alas tend to get disregarded anyway since over the years he has earned
the disrespect and contempt of the majority of the users of the group.

This has been going on for
years and years. This fool never stops, he has a clear mental problem,
well that is the Internet for you.

You are talking about dribble right?

Plowman rarely adds any useful
information at all just nuisance value.

A read through of his posts that are not in dribble threads proves this
to be nonsense.

It is clear he breaches the
terms of his ISP. There is enough evidence to hang him.

The only regular poster to this group that has had a usenet account
suspended for abuse is dribble. He does not even have the confidence in
his own advice to add his name to it.

A few years ago I, and few others, had a go at Plowman about his
obsession with Dr Drivel and told him to act sensible.

I am sure that must have had him quaking with wry amusement.

If he was kicked off by his ISP, he would emerge in a different name.
They usually do.

Like dribble again?

If he continues in the current manner, and Firth is now adopting his
ways, I might just gather evidence and approach his ISP if I can find
the time between jobs. The likes of Plowman have ruined what is a very
informative group and I am fed with reading nonsense, provocative,

Then killfile him and move on, stop whining like a girl.

childish posts by him. Something has to be done. Every time I defend
Dr Drivel I am accused of being him by some of what I can only describe
as idiots on this group.

I guess if you try to defend the indefensible than that has to be one of
the possible conclusions. The others are perhaps less savoury.

I am now looking to other forums as they are more civilised

OK so long, cheers, have a nice life.

Plowman would not last 2 seconds as the mod would kick them off.

Remember only dribble has had his account kicked for abuse.

the plumbing and heating side it is full of the old school stuck in the
past plumbers. Geoff contributes there as well, and is not one of them.

Hey perhaps there is a calling for your hero?

The electrical section is not bad at all. If the key expert forum
members on uk.d-i-y went over there it would solve a lot of problems
and this group could be left to the idiots who have ruined of what was
once a good group.

Thanks, but we are happy here, you go play.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I logged back in and I'm sure Steve Firth the same person as Dave
Plowman. There can't be two like that.

John Rumm wrote:
wrote:

provocative one. Dr Drivel is head and shoulders above everyone here
in heating and water installations (sorry Ed he is),

Perhaps you are reading a different forum from the rest of us.

No, exactly the same one, reading it well before you arrived.

But most of the suggested solutions
he posts here either don't work and are
poorly thought out, or achieve at three
times the cost and complexity
what could be done by other means.

Well I have used many and they have saved me time, valuable space and
money and ended up with the performance at the end.

One thing that dribble seems to miss (and
why Ed always seems to offer
more grounded and workable advice) is the
need to keep things based in the real world,

His suggestions were very real world, understanding what the problem
was and suggesting a few alternative ways to go about it. Some of the
suggestions were not what would be called mainstream thinking, but
clever and simple in many ways. Ed is good on Vaillants and their
problems, which is very useful.

I cut the rest as it is just personal invective. I prefer the views of
professionals on heating not DIY people, you fall into the latter. DIY
people are good in their views of reliability and living with a system
or appliance.

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
A few years ago I, and few others, had a go at Plowman about his
obsession with Dr Drivel and told him to act sensible.

Did you? How nice for you.

He also posted this:

"When I started using plastic pipes I used a hacksaw and trimmed of the
pipe edge. As long as the cut is square all is fine as the pipe indert
isolates the pipe from the O ring as it is being pushed on the pipe. For
a few joints, using a hacksaw and some care, and all is fine. "

Which should leave no doubt as to the identity of "timegoesby".

It's quite interesting in an anorak sort of way to look at some posting
statistics to uk.d-i-y over any period of time. For example, the last 14
days. (which my newsreader is set to keep all posts for).

Dribble made:-
280 posts.
103 - being generous - with something to say on the thread or drift.
177 of the 'snip rubbish' etc type with nothing whatsoever about the
thread.

So a signal to noise ratio of 35%

'timegoesby'
9 posts

5 with something to do with the thread.
4 complaining about others wasting space.

So 55% signal to noise ratio.

So it would be an improvment if dribble became timegoesby permanently.

However he might find it difficult to pat himself on the back...

--
*I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
wrote:
I logged back in and I'm sure Steve Firth the same person as Dave
Plowman. There can't be two like that.

How very kind. I'm not sure Steve will agree, though.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" aka Chav wrote in message
...
wrote:

provocative one. Dr Drivel is head and shoulders above everyone here
in heating and water installations (sorry Ed he is),

Perhaps you are reading a different forum from the rest of us. But most of
the suggested solutions he posts here either don't work and are poorly
thought out,

Chav, you are a total armature idiot and are in no position to comment on
heating in any way. Ed Siret has limited experience. He does a lot of
landlord work fitting a lot of combis. His experience outside of this is
limited. He has never seen a thermal store and never knew of high flow
multi-points until I told him. His FAQ is how Ed perceived the world to be
in heating, not how it is. If he hasn't seen it, it doesn't go in. A waste
of time.

snip idiotic Chavness

Listen to Mr timegoesby, he is pro.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
A few years ago I, and few others, had a go at Plowman about his
obsession with Dr Drivel and told him to act sensible.

snip senile drivel

Wow! This prove Richard Cranium here is beyond redemption. A sad case
indeed.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article . com,
wrote:
I logged back in and I'm sure Steve Firth the same person as Dave
Plowman. There can't be two like that.

How very kind. I'm not sure Steve will agree, though.

But Dave will.

wrote in message
ups.com...

tony sayer wrote:

What a shame that a serious interesting thread
has to degenerate into a
silly slanging match;--(...............

Tony, the problem is Dave Plowman, and Firth to lesser degree. Plowman
is an idiot.

This is very good post. Richard Cranium is beyond redemption, a pure
plantpot. He and the ****kicker are the same person.

I agree there is enough evidence to hang Richard Cranium, he is way out in
breeching ISP code. His institution may have to take the computer away from
him.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:14:44 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

This is very good post.

Why are you talking to yourself?

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:14:44 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

This is very good post.

Why

Same old ****kicker - just another day.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:35:03 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel is a ****kicker - every day.

But why do you pretend that "timegoesby" is not you?

Are so monumentally stupid that you can't understand what an IP address is?

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
snip senile drivel

180

--
*Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
snip senile drivel

179

--
*Eat well, stay fit, die anyway

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Chav, you are a total armature idiot

Is that a wind up? ;-)

Whereas you have progressed from being a amateur idiot to a pro one huh?

and are in no position to comment
on heating in any way.

That is the nice thing about usenet, my opinion is worth no more or less
than yours.

His FAQ is how Ed perceived the
world to be in heating, not how it is. If he hasn't seen it, it doesn't
go in. A waste of time.

And yet strangely is the only FAQ we have in spite of you claiming to be
able to do better. As usual, never able to come up with the goods, only
the waffle.

Listen to Mr timegoesby, he is pro.

I value his opinion as much as I do yours... more in fact.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" through ahaze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
snip senile drivel

180

The senile one is counting. very good. Keep it up.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
snip senile drivel

179

Wow, this senile person is showing off his counting.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Chav, you are a total armature idiot

Is that a wind up? ;-)

Nope Chav/John White, you are just twisted. And an effing idiot. Let's face
it Essex is county with a known serious attitude problem.

and are in no position to comment
on heating in any way.

That is the nice thing about usenet, my opinion is worth no more or less
than yours.

That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it. Look
at you, Richard Cranium, The ****kicker, Matt/Lord Hall, Dingley Dell, etc,
all in your uk.d-i-y Lunatic Association. Some loons here all right.

His FAQ is how Ed perceived the world to be in heating, not how it is. If
he hasn't seen it, it doesn't go in. A waste of time.

And yet strangely is the only FAQ we have

And not worth having as it is 20 years out of date. You are a saddo.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is the nice thing about usenet, my opinion is worth no more or
less than yours.


That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it.
Look at you, Richard Cranium, The ****kicker, Matt/Lord Hall, Dingley
Dell, etc, all in your uk.d-i-y Lunatic Association. Some loons here
all right.

Why not go and start your own group then? We promise never to set foot
in it, so you can rest assured that you you will never have anyone
contradict you (other than yourself of course).

His FAQ is how Ed perceived the world to be in heating, not how it
is. If he hasn't seen it, it doesn't go in. A waste of time.


And yet strangely is the only FAQ we have


And not worth having as it is 20 years out of date. You are a saddo.

Come on, stop waffling and produce something better if you can.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:35:03 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel is a ****kicker - every day.

But why do you pretend that "timegoesby" is not you?

**** kicker because he is not me -I am actually very good looking. He has
been around for a very long time, you obvious don't notice these things
because of your condition.

Are so monumentally stupid that
you can't understand what an IP address is?

I do in fact. And I know they are allocated dynamically and that service and
backbone providers may have the same blocks of addresses. Many service
providers may use the same backbone provider and all come out at the same
hub. I don't expect you to understand any of what I wrote above, so don't
read it twice to understand just keep kicking the ****. You are a sad case.
very sad indeed.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:17:32 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it.

Oh the irony.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
snip senile drivel

180

Silly codger, I hay do what Mr timegoesby suggests and put it all together
and your ISP will have to act as the case gainst you is overwhelming. You
will have to change your ISP again. You have done that in the past. A big
hit with people aren't you:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....5832e7 65a818

Sad, Very sad.

wrote in message
ups.com...

I don't contribute much here either, although I wish I had the time
to do so. I mainly come here because of a handful of informative
individuals, Dr Drivel, Andy Wade, Christian Mc Ardle, Ed Sirrett,
Geoff, the ex surveyor guys, Mr Fowler the estate agent, etc. I am now
looking to other forums as they are more civilised and idiots like
Plowman would not last 2 seconds as the mod would kick them off.
DIYnot is quite good with a low noise level. The problem is that on
the plumbing and heating side it is full of the old school stuck in the
past plumbers. Geoff contributes there as well, and is not one of them.

Maxie Raden asked me to go over to DIYNot.com as he contributes there as
well. I went over and had a look it seems OK. Everything is split into
groups of heating, electrical, tools, etc. It is easier to get to a topic
and search. Richard Cranium and the **** Kicker wouldn't last 5 minutes as
they would kick them off; those types of lunatics can only survive on
unmoderated Usenet. There are far too many plumbers there with an Ed Sirrett
mentality, which was a bit off-putting.

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:17:32 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it.

Oh the irony.

Yes, **** kicker, any old irony.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:49:11 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:17:32 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it.

Oh the irony.

Yes, Drivel talks **** and is a now-it-all useless idiot, the irony.

The irony.

"Andy Hall" aka Matt wrote in message
...

I do in fact. And I know they are allocated dynamically and that service
and backbone providers may have the same blocks of addresses. Many
service providers may use the same backbone provider and all come out at
the same hub.

No you don't.

I do, Matt. You just copied all that out of a bad book.

- IP addresses *may* be allocated to end users dynamically. They *may*
be assigned statically.

To individual ISP accounts they will be dynamic. The one seen could be the
ISP or backbone providers which may be static.

It depends on the infrastructure of the ISP and the agreement between the
ISP and end user. Typically dynamic public IP addressing, where it is
used is for entry level ISP packages for a single computer.

Your book got that right there.

For customers needing to run fixed servers and needing multiple addresses,
it is usual to use statically allocated addressing.

Matt, that is commercial which is not the issue.

- IP address blocks are allocated by Regional Internet Registries (e.g.
RIPE, ARIN, APNIC...) to Local Internet Registries (often ISPs) who are
then responsible for their distribution.

We all know that. But you can allocate your sub address behind a server.
Juts have to know how to work them out.

- Any ISP worth using does not just have one backbone provider, he will
have several for reasons of resilience and differing commercial terms. He
will also make sure that his peering connections are in different
geographical locations. The major backbone providers certainly make sure
that they have many points of presence. So, no, all don't "come out at
the same hub".

In an area they will. You will see that in your grotty little town, they
come out the same one.

Matt, you can never get anything right can you?

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:27:23 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:35:03 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel is a ****kicker - every day.

But why do you pretend that "timegoesby" is not you?

**** kicker because he is not me -I am actually very good looking. He has
been around for a very long time, you obvious don't notice these things
because of your condition.

And he's been posting via the same ISP as you fromt he same IP block for
that length of time. He also forgets himself and answers questions directed
to you and you answer questions directed to him. You share the same
spelling mistakes, the same obsession with combis, cutting plastic tube
with a hacksaw and

Are so monumentally stupid that
you can't understand what an IP address is?

I do in fact. And I know they are allocated dynamically

Not true they *may* be allocated dynamically however even where they are
allocated dynamically there's a high chance that within an individual ISP
the same IP will get allocated to the same user, especially if, say, that
user is so ****ign stupid that they post as "IMM" and "timegoesby" within
the hour without, apparently being clever enough to take steps to ensure
that their IP would be renewed in the meantime.

and that service and backbone providers may have the same blocks of
addresses.

Utter ****.

Many service providers may use the same backbone provider and all come
out at the same hub.

yawn To have happened to have shared the same IP block once may have been
a coincidence. Six years of coincidence is stretching anyone's credibility
in the bizarre.

I don't expect you to understand any of what I wrote above, so don't
read it twice to understand just keep kicking the ****. You are a sad case.
very sad indeed.

As sad as someone who feels the need to change his name and even his
service provider at regular intervals to escape killfiles?

As sad as someone stupid enough to think that using google gives anonymity?

"John Rumm" aka Chav wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is the nice thing about usenet, my opinion is worth no more or less
than yours.

That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it.
Look at you, Richard Cranium, The ****kicker, Matt/Lord Hall, Dingley
Dell, etc, all in your uk.d-i-y Lunatic Association. Some loons here all
right.

Why not go and start

I could start a tango group as well. I don't need your suggestions thanks.
If you don't like what you see go. You are a Johnny come lately, and silly
one too.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:47:23 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Maxie Raden asked me to go over to DIYNot.com

You'll get a bad reputation talking to yourself like that.

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message .. .
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:49:11 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:17:32 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it.

Oh the irony.

Yes, Drivel talks **** and is a now-it-all useless idiot, the irony.

The irony.

See above. The ****kicker is changing text. A real weirdo. I'm glad I
don't come from the country, look what it does to them. Very sad. You know
he told us once he lived Italy. I'm sure they would drive him out.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:48:30 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message .. .
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:49:11 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:17:32 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is worst thing about Usenet, know-it-all useless idiots spoil it.

Oh the irony.

Yes, Drivel talks **** and is a now-it-all useless idiot, the irony.

The irony.

See above. Drivel makes unmarked deetions to text. A real weirdo. I'm glad I
don't come from the country, look what it does to them. Very sad. You know
he told us once he lived in Milton Keynes.

Yeah, and so does his alter ego.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:37:55 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

To individual ISP accounts they will be dynamic.

Utter ********, as usual, I've had the same IP for years, for good reason.

How strange that both you and your ****witted alter ego both use Tiscali
DSL and both from Milton Keynes.

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message . ..
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:27:23 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:35:03 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel is a ****kicker - every day.

But why do you pretend that "timegoesby" is not you?

**** kicker because he is not me - I am
actually very good looking. He has
been around for a very long time,
you obvious don't notice these things
because of your condition.

And he's been posting via the same
ISP as you fromt he same IP block for
that length of time.

****kicker you are telling porkies, your condition makes you do this

snip **** kicker babble

Sad. very sad.

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:47:23 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Maxie Raden asked me to go over to DIYNot.com

You'll get a bad reputation talking to yourself like that.

**** kicker, Maxie Raden is not me. Everyone knows that.

On 2006-07-30 23:27:23 +0100, "Doctor Drivel" said:


"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote
in message ...


Are so monumentally stupid that
you can't understand what an IP address is?

I do in fact. And I know they are allocated dynamically and that
service and backbone providers may have the same blocks of addresses.
Many service providers may use the same backbone provider and all come
out at the same hub.

No you don't.

Here's another demonstration of lack of knowledge and understanding.

- IP addresses *may* be allocated to end users dynamically. They
*may* be assigned statically. It depends on the infrastructure of the
ISP and the agreement between the ISP and end user. Typically dynamic
public IP addressing, where it is used is for entry level ISP packages
for a single computer. For customers needing to run fixed servers and
needing multiple addresses, it is usual to use statically allocated
addressing.

- Service and backbone providers do not have the same address spaces
for infrastructure that needs to be reachable on the public internet.
They may use private address space according to RFC1918, but that is
deliberately not routable on the internet and would be used for their
internal infrastructure - e.g. for management.

- IP address blocks are allocated by Regional Internet Registries (e.g.
RIPE, ARIN, APNIC...) to Local Internet Registries (often ISPs) who are
then responsible for their distribution.

- Any ISP worth using does not just have one backbone provider, he will
have several for reasons of resilience and differing commercial terms.
He will also make sure that his peering connections are in different
geographical locations. The major backbone providers certainly make
sure that they have many points of presence. So, no, all don't "come
out at the same hub".

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 01:12:45 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message . ..
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:27:23 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Steve Firth" fresh in from kicking **** wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:35:03 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

Drivel is a ****kicker - every day.

But why do you pretend that "timegoesby" is not you?

**** kicker because he is not me - I am
actually very good looking. He has
been around for a very long time,
you obvious don't notice these things
because of your condition.

And he's been posting via the same
ISP as you fromt he same IP block for
that length of time.

****kicker you are telling porkies, your condition makes you do this

yawn Both of you using Tiscali from Milton Keynes.