Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.

"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.



Put in a 95% furnace and gas will be cheaper again!

At $.06/kwh you are paying $17.76 per million BTU for resistance electric
heat.

At $1.3/therm, 65% furnace you are paying $20 per million BTU

Or with a 94% furnace you are paying $13.83 per million BTU.

Don't forget all taxes and city charges! Our utility advertises $.06 per
kwh, but after taxes and other misc charges it comes out to close to $.08
per kwh. Gas is similar! Advertised $1.12 per therm, but it comes out to
$1.66 per therm. Also gas has gone up in price, but electric rates will
follow along too. I was working at a large government owned electricity
provider today and was told electric is going up soon. At this time my bet
is if in your area gas has been historically cheaper it will continue to do
so.
Greg

"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.

Where do you live to get electric that cheap? In New England we are about
14¢ to 16¢.

Dominic wrote:
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than
gas when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6
cents/kwh for electric.

Time to replace that old furnace with a new more efficient one and that
will be cheaper than even that cheap electric power.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.

Where do you live to get electric that cheap? In New England we are about
14¢ to 16¢.

Yes; I was also wondering where one gets electricity for 6 cents/kWh!

But I'm wondering is that is the 'total' price.

I live in Eastern Canada (in a province where we make the stuff using
hydro!) and heat electrically.
Domestically we are billed a monthly account charge of around $15.69
(Canadian) , whether we use any electricity or not. Our electricity used
cost is then 8.458 cents per kWh in addition to that. There is a discount of
1.5% on those two items, if the bill is paid on time and then 15% sales tax
is added.

Typically taking all that into account our overall electricity cost in
summer is around 11 cents/kWh; and in winter due to the higher consumption,
is now around 10 cents/kWh. this all in Can. currency which is approx 0.84
US.
So our electricity cost, in winter for example, is equivalent to about 8.4
cents US per kWh. (Roughly for UK listeners that's about four (4) new pence.
Here there are no cheap/reduced rates, as in some European (UK) countries
for electricity consumed late at night/early morning during off-peak
periods, same rate, domestically anyway, during the 24 hours.

It is understood that in some jurisdictions, such as Ontario there is a
somewhat different costing; so that although the cost of domestic
electricity consumed was, or still is? limited by government legislation, to
4.5 cents per kWh there are other charges on each customers bill to cover
the cost of 'Capital Investment'. That includes, we understand, some high
costs for their aging and needing to be replaced atomic energy electrical
generating plants!

It might be cheaper and with also concerns about environmental global
warming (Those floods and hurricanes are getting expensive eh?), for North
American utilities (Ontario, Massachusets, Maine, New York, Ohio etc.) to
buy electricity to be transmitted from the proposed new hydro development
called 'Lower Churchill' in Newfoundland-Labrador.

I've also read that electricity in say Hawaii is expensive at around 22
cents per? but i guess they don't have to much heating?

Terry.

1 therm = 100,000 BTUs.
1 KW-H = 3412 BTUs.

So 65,000 BTUs output with a 65% AFUE) gas heater costs $1.30, while
65,000 BTUs of electric resistance heat costs $1.14. If you live in a
mild climate, where the low temperature is rarely below 25-30F, an
electric heatpump can cut the cost by 2-3. Remember that heaters are
actually rated in BTUs/hour, not BTUs.

65% AFUE is unusually low by today's standards, and 90% AFUE gas
heaters are very common and not particularly more expensive.

Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than
gas when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6
cents/kwh for electric.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is fairly cheap (about 7.5
cents per KW), and electric heat is quite common.

However, even if electric cost more than gas, I would personally still
opt for electric. It's mostly future proof, since electricity can be
produced by hydroelectric dams, wind generators, solar power, nuclear
plants, and even coal and natural gas generators. Gas prices may continue
to soar, and who knows what future availability will be. Poor efficiency
furnaces will need to be updated with newer technology. Electric is
always 100% efficient, even with old heaters.

From a practical standpoint, I don't have to worry about gas leaks,
carbon monoxide poisoning, etc. And since gas lines aren't available in
my rural area, I don't need a big gas tank in my yard.

We heat our home with individual electric wall heaters. This lets us heat
only the rooms we occupy, and set the bedrooms at lower temps than the
rest of the house. No ductwork to collect dirt and blow dust all over the
house, and no filters to maintain. And if I add a room or want additional
heat, I can easily add another electric heater.

Just my opinion...

Anthony

"Greg O" wrote in message
...


"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than
gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.



Put in a 95% furnace and gas will be cheaper again!

At $.06/kwh you are paying $17.76 per million BTU for resistance electric
heat.

Yes, but a heat pump might cut than number in half except on the very cold
days.

We moved from a medium sized townhouse (1200 sq ft plus semi-finished
basement) to a good sized ranch home on full basement (3000+ sq ft of living
space). The townhome had gas heat and air conditioning; the ranch house is
all electric. The electric bill for the ranch house was about the same as
the combined electric/gas for the townhouse. And that was back in 1998.

We rent out the townhouse. The vent for the gas furnace and the gas water
heater is metal. IF ANYTHING ever goes wrong with that vent, we will
convert the place over to ALL ELECTRIC. The vent space could be use to run
electric and communication wiring for upgrades to the upper floors.

You MUST have electric service anyway so the metering charge is already
built in. If you can get rid of the gas service (with all electric) you
might be ahead.



At $1.3/therm, 65% furnace you are paying $20 per million BTU

Or with a 94% furnace you are paying $13.83 per million BTU.

Don't forget all taxes and city charges! Our utility advertises $.06 per
kwh, but after taxes and other misc charges it comes out to close to $.08
per kwh. Gas is similar! Advertised $1.12 per therm, but it comes out to
$1.66 per therm. Also gas has gone up in price, but electric rates will
follow along too. I was working at a large government owned electricity
provider today and was told electric is going up soon. At this time my bet
is if in your area gas has been historically cheaper it will continue to
do
so.
Greg

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:00:23 -0500, "Greg O"
wrote:



"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.



You're paying $0.06 per kwh for the electricity, yes, but the
chances are, you're ALSO paying $0.08 per kwh for transmission
charges plus taxes.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than
gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.

Where do you live to get electric that cheap? In New England we are about
14¢ to 16¢.


My town own its own municipal power plant. We pay about $.11/kwh. The good
news is that if we pay the bill within a fixed time frame (10 days or so) we
get a 20% discount off the billed amount.
MLD

MLD wrote:
....


My town own its own municipal power plant. We pay about $.11/kwh.
The good news is that if we pay the bill within a fixed time frame
(10 days or so) we get a 20% discount off the billed amount.
MLD

Or it means you are really paying 0.088 with a 25% late payment penalty.
:-)

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...

"Greg O" wrote in message
...


"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than
gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.



Put in a 95% furnace and gas will be cheaper again!

At $.06/kwh you are paying $17.76 per million BTU for resistance electric
heat.

Yes, but a heat pump might cut than number in half except on the very cold
days.

We moved from a medium sized townhouse (1200 sq ft plus semi-finished
basement) to a good sized ranch home on full basement (3000+ sq ft of
living
space). The townhome had gas heat and air conditioning; the ranch house
is
all electric. The electric bill for the ranch house was about the same
as
the combined electric/gas for the townhouse. And that was back in 1998.

We rent out the townhouse. The vent for the gas furnace and the gas
water
heater is metal. IF ANYTHING ever goes wrong with that vent, we will
convert the place over to ALL ELECTRIC. The vent space could be use to
run
electric and communication wiring for upgrades to the upper floors.

You MUST have electric service anyway so the metering charge is already
built in. If you can get rid of the gas service (with all electric) you
might be ahead.




Nothing wrong with a heat pump if the rates are good, and the climate is
mild. in my area we see a few, in fact my dad has one in his home. Heat
pumps stop producing effective heat at 10-20 degrees. If you see allot of
time below that number gas may be a better choice, certainly at the prices
the OP stated.

As far as the metal venting for you heat and water heater you could easily
go with an electric water heater and a high efficiency furnace and do away
with the old metal chimney.
Again, you temperatures and energy prices will help make the decision.
Greg

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.

Where do you live to get electric that cheap? In New England we are about
14¢ to 16¢.

Ed, here in North Dakota we pay 6 cents per kWh. Now add city tax and a
couple of other B.S. charges and my electric comes to a whopping 8 cents! In
fact I have my last bill in my hand right now.$82.22 or 998 kWh, which
equals $0.082. Listed price per kWh is $0.062. Winter that rates drops by
about 8/10ths of a cent, so we get a better deal in the winter months.
Greg

Nothing wrong with a heat pump if the rates are good, and the climate is
mild. in my area we see a few, in fact my dad has one in his home. Heat
pumps stop producing effective heat at 10-20 degrees. If you see allot of
time below that number gas may be a better choice, certainly at the prices
the OP stated.

As far as the metal venting for you heat and water heater you could easily
go with an electric water heater and a high efficiency furnace and do away
with the old metal chimney.
Again, you temperatures and energy prices will help make the decision.

Of course!

In any situation like this you "run the numbers."

Had the unit a GAS stove, if would not feel the same way. (I had put in a
GAS clothes dryer but that must be close to 20 years old by now.)

I have a gut feeling that 'lectric is the way to go with this unit. When
the time comes to take a decision I will ask the gas company to make some
recomendations. If they don't come up with a package and a price (like the
electric company often does), they will have one less meter to read.

"Greg O" wrote in message

Ed, here in North Dakota we pay 6 cents per kWh. Now add city tax and a
couple of other B.S. charges and my electric comes to a whopping 8 cents!
In fact I have my last bill in my hand right now.$82.22 or 998 kWh, which
equals $0.082. Listed price per kWh is $0.062. Winter that rates drops by
about 8/10ths of a cent, so we get a better deal in the winter months.
Greg

I may just move next door to you. Last month paid $139. I'm trying to
forget the summer bills with AC.

"HerHusband" wrote in message
Here in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is fairly cheap (about 7.5
cents per KW), and electric heat is quite common.

However, even if electric cost more than gas, I would personally still
opt for electric. It's mostly future proof, since electricity can be
produced by hydroelectric dams, wind generators, solar power, nuclear
plants, and even coal and natural gas generators. Gas prices may continue
to soar, and who knows what future availability will be. Poor efficiency
furnaces will need to be updated with newer technology. Electric is
always 100% efficient, even with old heaters.

You make good point but if you lived in New England you may change your
mind. Our winters are more severe and out electric rates are more than
double yours.

Electricity is not truly 100% efficient. Those power plants making it with
fossil fuels are much less than that. You do pay for their waste. I'd like
to see more hydro power though.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

6 cents/kwh for electric.

Where do you live to get electric that cheap? In New England we are about
14¢ to 16¢.


Its .0605 cents CDN KWH or under 5 cents US here in British Columbia
Canada.
Nearly all hydroelectric power from dams built in the 60's and paid off
years ago.
Owned by the people of BC..not private 'money making' electrical companies
as in the USA.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"Greg O" wrote in message

Ed, here in North Dakota we pay 6 cents per kWh. Now add city tax and a
couple of other B.S. charges and my electric comes to a whopping 8 cents!
In fact I have my last bill in my hand right now.$82.22 or 998 kWh, which
equals $0.082. Listed price per kWh is $0.062. Winter that rates drops by
about 8/10ths of a cent, so we get a better deal in the winter months.
Greg

I may just move next door to you. Last month paid $139. I'm trying to
forget the summer bills with AC.

We burned up $65 in gas too. I have gas heat, and a gas water heater. If you
are running just electric, you are getting a better deal!
Greg

"Greg O" wrote in message
We burned up $65 in gas too. I have gas heat, and a gas water heater. If
you are running just electric, you are getting a better deal!
Greg

That is just lighting and refrigeration. Oil for the hot water and I don't
know how much. It will be about $1500 for the year at 2.359 a gallon.

Hi Edwin,

You make good point but if you lived in New England you may change
your mind. Our winters are more severe and out electric rates are
more than double yours.

Yeah, I might have to rethink my position if my electric bill was
doubled. But, I would still have a hard time switching to gas. I'd
spend more time improving insulation and minimizing the space I have to
heat.

I chose individual electric wall heaters in our new house, partly because
the furnace in our old house broke down one year. We were without heat
for nearly two weeks in the middle of winter while waiting for a part to
be ordered! With the individual heaters, one or more can quit working and
we still have other heaters in the house to keep warm. For those rare
times when the electricity goes out altogether, we have a woodstove too.

Electricity is not truly 100% efficient. Those power plants making it
with fossil fuels are much less than that. You do pay for their waste.

True, but I'd rather the power plant deal with maintenance, efficiency,
polution, and all that instead of me.

I'd like to see more hydro power though.

Hydro is common around here, but it's not a perfect solution either. Fish
populations are on the decline, not only an environmental problem, but it
affects fisherman making their living by fishing too.

Wind power is gaining popularity, but I thought I read somewhere it has
negative side effects too?

Nuclear is nice, but has it's own risks and there's no where to store the
waste.

I guess everything is a tradeoff...

Maybe hydrogen generators or fuel cells will be the answer?

Anthony

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:00:23 -0500, "Greg O"
wrote:



"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than
gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.



You're paying $0.06 per kwh for the electricity, yes, but the
chances are, you're ALSO paying $0.08 per kwh for transmission
charges plus taxes.

Total cost is 6 cents plus a $6 monthly fee plus 7% tax

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

"Dominic" wrote in message
news:xQh5f.43153$ir4.36695@edtnps90...
Anyone considering a conversion to electric heat now that gas is so
expensive. According to my utility, electric heat is now cheaper than gas
when using a 65% AFUE furnace. Our gas is $1.3/therm vs 6 cents/kwh for
electric.

Where do you live to get electric that cheap? In New England we are about
14¢ to 16¢.
BC hydro in Canada

HerHusband wrote:

However, even if electric cost more than gas, I would personally still
opt for electric. It's mostly future proof, since electricity can be
produced by hydroelectric dams, wind generators, solar power, nuclear
plants, and even coal and natural gas generators.

Too much future-proofing isn't always economical.

Gas prices may continue to soar, and who knows what future
availability will be. Poor efficiency furnaces will need to
be updated with newer technology. Electric is always 100%
efficient, even with old heaters.

That is very misleading because 20-30% of the electric energy is lost
during power transmission, meaning if resistive heat is powered by a
gas-fired generator station, it may not be as efficient as an
80-90%-eficient gas furnace. Also resistive heat is more efficient
than a heatpump, yet the latter typically needs only 30-50% as much
electric energy for the same BTU output.

From a practical standpoint, I don't have to worry about gas leaks,
carbon monoxide poisoning, etc.

Safety is probably the best reason to use electric heat.

And since gas lines aren't available in my rural area, I
don't need a big gas tank in my yard.

Tanked gas is typically so expensive that it makes electric heat
cheaper.

We heat our home with individual electric wall heaters. This lets us heat
only the rooms we occupy, and set the bedrooms at lower temps than the
rest of the house.

If more houses were zoned like that, we could probably cut heating
bills in half. My home is completely zoned, including with temperature
and motion sensors in each room, and my highest air conditioning bill
last summer was $90. This is for 72 degrees average, 4400 sq. ft. and
central Arizona, with ordinary SEER 12 A/C units.

Too much future-proofing isn't always economical.

Agreed, but combined with all the other benefits, electric heat is still my
choice.

That is very misleading because 20-30% of the electric energy is lost
during power transmission, meaning if resistive heat is powered by a
gas-fired generator station, it may not be as efficient as an
80-90%-eficient gas furnace.

True, but most homes probably aren't running the most efficient gas
furnaces, and probably aren't maintained the way a generator station would
be.

Also resistive heat is more efficient than a heatpump,
yet the latter typically needs only 30-50% as much
electric energy for the same BTU output.

However, heat pumps usually only work well in moderate climates, are
expensive to install, use dust collecting duct work, and require space
outside the home for the compressor.

Safety is probably the best reason to use electric heat.

It was one of our main deciding factors.

air conditioning bill last summer was $90.

We have so few hot days here that we don't need air conditioning.

As for heating bills, that's hard to calculate with electric because our
bill also includes all electric appliances, electric hot water heater,
electric well pump, a full time home office, and woodworking power tools
running fairly often.

However, we are on an "equal pay" plan and currently pay $145 a month,
summer and winter. We average about 30-40 kwh/day during the summer, and
70-80 kwh/day during the winter, weather depending of course.

4400 sq. ft.

It's not an option most people want to hear these days, but reducing square
footage is the best way to cut energy costs. No matter how efficient your
heating and insulation may be, more square footage means more energy is
needed to heat and cool.

The recommendations I have heard is 8 watts per square foot for electric
heat in well insulated houses. That's about 12 kw for our 1456 sq/ft house,
where a 4400 sq/ft house would need 35 kw at the same rate.

Anthony