A long time dream goal in life involves first a building to make my shop in.
Then set up a home shop with a bit of manual and CNC machines, plus
automation equipment & controls like what I do for my day job.

Jumping ahead, the desired end result would be that I make things in my home
shop but using automation and sell the items to others interested in
whatever I'm making.

So, in the shop, I would make hobby projects using manual and CNC machines,
and if there seemed to be much interest, I could set up for automation to
have a mini production line. Perhaps not full, lights out, automation but
find a happy medium of cost of automation versus labor savings, using
automation to make a person as productive as practical.

The manual machine tools would be more for the one off items and to
construct the automated or semi-automated equipment.

For an example, I'd like to automate a progressive reloading press. After I
get a part of it automated, make the parts needed to sell to others. For
example if someone sets up a gear motor or cylinder to operate the press
lever, a control with sensors sensing cases, bullets, powder and jams could
stop the motor and alarm if something wasn't right. You wouldn't have to
use a PLC costing $$$ but maybe a low-cost microcontroller board with free
programming software. They already have alarms for reloading presses for
powder level in the powder measure and level in the cartridge case, if these
went to inputs in a controller they could stop the operation.

So worst case I'd have a home machine shop and not make any money from it,
best case I'd make some money and perhaps grow into something more than a
hobby. But if I didn't make any money, I'd get to work with my son, show
him how to run the manual and CNC machines, program CNC lathe and mill,
PLC's and robots. He'd get hands on experience in machining, CNC operation
and programming, CAD design, electrical. I think it would be better
experience than flipping burgers! Seems employers want young people with
years of college and years of experience, they want someone 5 years of
experience using 2014 software!

There is also some potential opportunity to sell parts to my employer.
There is an approved vendor that can buy from employees and sell to the
company. One of our maintenance mechanics bought an industrial sewing
machine and makes dust collector boots that use Velcro. This saves a lot of
time and disassembly in the boot replacement, it's not a secret and others
don't have a problem with it, they appreciate the savings in time and labor.

The thing holding me back is money, I asked my bank and they don't seem
interested in loaning money unless you can prove to them that you don't need
it! My credit score has fallen after buying a new car but it's still over
760, excellent. I work day shift and that's about the only time you can
talk to banks about loans so it's difficult to get time to call them.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
m...

A long time dream goal in life involves first a building to make my
shop in. Then set up a home shop with a bit of manual and CNC
machines, plus automation equipment & controls like what I do for my
day job.

RogerN

I spent my working career building custom industrial equipment and
developing engineers' ideas. Much of the work was electronic, but when
I had to demonstrate my mechanical proposals I could machine adequate
proof-of-concept models on my entirely manual machine tools from the
1960's, a Clausing vertical mill, a South Bend Heavy 10 lathe and a
Delta Toolmaker surface grinder.
jsw

I think that as a general case, taking business loans is usually a bad
idea, at least outside of the real estate arena.

Money should grow from natural sources, a.k.a revenue and savings.

i

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in message
...

I think that as a general case, taking business loans is usually a bad
idea, at least outside of the real estate arena.

Money should grow from natural sources, a.k.a revenue and savings.

i

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building. I bought my
house and 4.5 acres for $41,500 over 10 years ago, if I got a $20k for
building, concrete, & electrical, I'd have $61,500 in my home , building,
and acreage. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I plan to check with another
area bank that does construction loans, thought I may be able to get it
refinanced at a lower rate plus the building added on.

RogerN

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

"RogerN" wrote in message
om...

A long time dream goal in life involves first a building to make my shop
in. Then set up a home shop with a bit of manual and CNC machines, plus
automation equipment & controls like what I do for my day job.

RogerN

I spent my working career building custom industrial equipment and
developing engineers' ideas. Much of the work was electronic, but when I
had to demonstrate my mechanical proposals I could machine adequate
proof-of-concept models on my entirely manual machine tools from the
1960's, a Clausing vertical mill, a South Bend Heavy 10 lathe and a Delta
Toolmaker surface grinder.
jsw

I always appreciate those that can design parts that are machining friendly.
Some mechanical designers will draw an easy to draw line without realizing
how long that it's going to take to cut.

RogerN

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 12:02:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"RogerN" wrote in message
om...

A long time dream goal in life involves first a building to make my
shop in. Then set up a home shop with a bit of manual and CNC
machines, plus automation equipment & controls like what I do for my
day job.

RogerN

I spent my working career building custom industrial equipment and
developing engineers' ideas. Much of the work was electronic, but when
I had to demonstrate my mechanical proposals I could machine adequate
proof-of-concept models on my entirely manual machine tools from the
1960's, a Clausing vertical mill, a South Bend Heavy 10 lathe and a
Delta Toolmaker surface grinder.

That's a great badge of honor, Jim. Kudos.

--
The beauty of the 2nd Amendment is that it will not be needed
until they try to take it. --Thomas Jefferson

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 11:20:48 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in message
m...

I think that as a general case, taking business loans is usually a bad
idea, at least outside of the real estate arena.

Money should grow from natural sources, a.k.a revenue and savings.

i

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building. I bought my
house and 4.5 acres for $41,500 over 10 years ago, if I got a $20k for
building, concrete, & electrical, I'd have $61,500 in my home , building,
and acreage. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I plan to check with another
area bank that does construction loans, thought I may be able to get it
refinanced at a lower rate plus the building added on.

RogerN



Don't even talk tothe bank about business plans. You need to ask for a
second mortgage for home improvement. If you have 20% equity and
adequate cash flow, it will sail right through.

I bet I "improved" my home almost every year for nearly twenty years.

never mind that I used it to buy inputs in May and then repaid in
full in October.

Fortunately, I'm in a position to no longer need to do this.

karl

On 11/2/2013 12:23 PM, RogerN wrote:

I always appreciate those that can design parts that are machining friendly.
Some mechanical designers will draw an easy to draw line without realizing
how long that it's going to take to cut.

RogerN


It's a rare, and precious worker who understands
his own job, and the next job beyond his.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"RogerN" wrote in message
...
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

I always appreciate those that can design parts that are machining
friendly. Some mechanical designers will draw an easy to draw line
without realizing how long that it's going to take to cut.

RogerN

I was drafting parts for GM production line equipment when I realized
that I should better understand the processes of forming them.

By the time I had the basement space and spare cash for a hobby shop I
was working in satellite communications. There's a considerable
mechanical element to practice on in building microwave circuits. The
old-timers familiar with waveguides and cavity filters understood it,
but not all the newer EE grads did and I had to bring touchy-feely
models to meetings to convince them that they could trust me to make
things they didn't fully understand work right. .

jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 12:02:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

I spent my working career building custom industrial equipment and
developing engineers' ideas. Much of the work was electronic, but
when
I had to demonstrate my mechanical proposals I could machine
adequate
proof-of-concept models on my entirely manual machine tools from the
1960's, a Clausing vertical mill, a South Bend Heavy 10 lathe and a
Delta Toolmaker surface grinder.

That's a great badge of honor, Jim. Kudos.

That home shop is similar to the model shop I inherited at Mitre,
where previous, retired engineers and techs had prototyped advanced
military electronics for the Cold War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitre_Corporation

They had a real shop too, but the machinists required finished
drawings and wouldn't let engineers doodle on the HLV.
jsw

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
news
On 11/2/2013 12:23 PM, RogerN wrote:

I always appreciate those that can design parts that are machining
friendly.
Some mechanical designers will draw an easy to draw line without
realizing
how long that it's going to take to cut.

RogerN

It's a rare, and precious worker who understands
his own job, and the next job beyond his.

Christopher A. Young

I found that electrical engineers had so much to study in their own
field that they knew very little outside it, such as even the basics
of mechanical engineering. MEs weren't much better with electricity.

My degree is in Chemistry, which has such wide application that it's
practically a general science degree, covering nearly the whole range
of Matter and a considerable part of Energy (Physics) like Statics and
simple Kinetics. For much of it we learned only enough to understand
the specialized, often proprietary explanations wherever we took a
job.

For example that's where I learned about the strength of threaded
joints and how they fail, the circuit diagram for a 3-way light
switch, and how to calculate the capacitance between my hand and the
planet Saturn.

jsw

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:33:08 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

A long time dream goal in life involves first a building to make my shop in.
Then set up a home shop with a bit of manual and CNC machines, plus
automation equipment & controls like what I do for my day job.
snip

As an old joke has it, a machinist is somebody that can make
anything except money...

IMNSHO, cutting metal is the easy (and fun) part.
Marketing, sales, accounting/credit, inventory control,
personnel/HR, etc. are the killers.

On 2013-11-02, RogerN wrote:
"Ignoramus11177" wrote in message
...

I think that as a general case, taking business loans is usually a bad
idea, at least outside of the real estate arena.

Money should grow from natural sources, a.k.a revenue and savings.

i

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building.

What you described in your original post, is borrowing money for a
business operation.

I bought my house and 4.5 acres for $41,500 over 10 years ago, if I
got a $20k for building, concrete, & electrical, I'd have $61,500 in
my home , building, and acreage. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
I plan to check with another area bank that does construction loans,
thought I may be able to get it refinanced at a lower rate plus the
building added on.

Refinancing may be a possible avenue, yes. But it does not negate what
I said.

i

On Saturday, November 2, 2013 1:04:55 PM UTC-4, Karl Townsend wrote:

I bet I "improved" my home almost every year for nearly twenty years.
never mind that I used it to buy inputs in May and then repaid in
full in October.

Isn't that considered normal for farmers? That kind of life would scare the crap out of me. I have NEVER bought anything (except my house which is finally paid off) that I couldn't buy for cash.

But agreed. For Roger, a home improvement or home equity loan would make sense, but not if he doesn't have the means to repay it.

Something I wasn't clear on. I want to finance the building because I don't
have the cash, I've been paying 32% child support since I was making around
$8 per hour, and sometimes less, over 18 years. Making money in my home
shop will not be required to make the payments, I will not borrow what I
can't pay on my current income. I have a 2nd home that my mom currently
lives in and that is where my current shop is, about 5 miles away. Whenever
my mom decides, she can move and I can sell that place. It would be nice to
have my shop moved over here and what I want to keep moved out of that
building. At that time I should have a little cash and get rid of the
mortgage and property tax payment. So, though I don't have the cash, I do
have assets of value that I could get rid of before I'd get in a financial
bind, if it came to that.

RogerN

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 11:20:48 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in message
m...

I think that as a general case, taking business loans is usually a bad
idea, at least outside of the real estate arena.

Money should grow from natural sources, a.k.a revenue and savings.

i

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building. I bought my
house and 4.5 acres for $41,500 over 10 years ago, if I got a $20k for
building, concrete, & electrical, I'd have $61,500 in my home , building,
and acreage. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I plan to check with another
area bank that does construction loans, thought I may be able to get it
refinanced at a lower rate plus the building added on.

RogerN

If they turned you down for a $20k home improvement loan it's because
they decided the place wouldn't have enough equity after the
improvement. You're also in a very poor financial situation unless
you're only 25 or something. Have you considered using the time you
waste here to work a part time job instead? Unless you're useless you
ought to be able to earn $20k in a year instead of borrowing it. Maybe
you're not praying hard enough. Have you tried squinting and clenching
your butt cheeks during your chats with your imaginary friend?

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in message
...

On 2013-11-02, RogerN wrote:
snip

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building.

What you described in your original post, is borrowing money for a
business operation.

Yeah, I wasn't clear. I already have the bulk of what I want for my shop, a
manual & CNC lathe, 2 manual mills plus a CNC mill, air compressor, press,
cherry picker, forklift, band saw, and so on. All I need is the building,
there would be minor other expenses, I figured in the electrical to the shop
plus inside plus light fixtures and outlets. Other expenses are like the
forklift needs a battery, need shelving, maybe a wall for office area and
tool room, and misc. things like that.

The building is something I want anyway, I'm not going to depend on any
income, that would just be a bonus. But I do think there's a chance as I
make things for hobby that it could grow to become a steady income possibly
beyond my day job. I have turned down paying machining work that I would
take if I had the shop handy, a friend rebuilds valves and cylinders, I can
make about $40 in 30 minutes machining a cylinder rod but loading up and
going to the shop makes it a couple hour ordeal. I can make the same rod in
the CNC lathe in about 5 minutes.

RogerN

"RogerN" wrote in message
...
... a friend rebuilds valves and cylinders, I can make about $40 in
30 minutes machining a cylinder rod but loading up and going to the
shop makes it a couple hour ordeal. I can make the same rod in the
CNC lathe in about 5 minutes.
RogerN

How do you deal with the hard chrome and case-hardening?

jsw

RogerN wrote:

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in message
...

I think that as a general case, taking business loans is usually a bad
idea, at least outside of the real estate arena.

Money should grow from natural sources, a.k.a revenue and savings.

i

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building. I bought my
house and 4.5 acres for $41,500 over 10 years ago, if I got a $20k for
building, concrete, & electrical, I'd have $61,500 in my home , building,
and acreage. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I plan to check with another
area bank that does construction loans, thought I may be able to get it
refinanced at a lower rate plus the building added on.

RogerN

So ask simply for a loan to build a metal shop building. Chances are the
metal building folks in your area know which banks are easy to deal with
for such things.

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in
message ...

To add to this, a few months ago I met just that kind of guy.
(bought
some of his scrap, broken CNC machine for parts and general
surplus).

He started a CNC manufacturing operation in his garage. Kept it
going
and expanded. Right now he is renting an industrial unit, has a
bunch
of machines, people etc. He did not seem to be stupid and, I am
assuming that he is making money.

i

How do CNC job shoppers deal with customers who don't know quite what
they want and ask for engineering help? Even if you are only copying
something for a repair you don't have the original specs and
dimensions.

jsw

On 2013-11-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus11177" wrote in
message ...

To add to this, a few months ago I met just that kind of guy.
(bought
some of his scrap, broken CNC machine for parts and general
surplus).

He started a CNC manufacturing operation in his garage. Kept it
going
and expanded. Right now he is renting an industrial unit, has a
bunch
of machines, people etc. He did not seem to be stupid and, I am
assuming that he is making money.

i

How do CNC job shoppers deal with customers who don't know quite what
they want and ask for engineering help? Even if you are only copying
something for a repair you don't have the original specs and
dimensions.

I am not in that business, and I find it to be generally unattractive
for myself. That particular guy I mentioned in my previous post, was
making certain engine parts for a leading lawnmower company. They know
what they want and he was making exactly what they wanted.

I would not want to have customers who want parts made and do not know
what exactly they need. I would try to gently send them elsewhere, and
if that does not help, not so gently.

i

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 19:14:44 -0500, Ignoramus11177
wrote:

On 2013-11-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus11177" wrote in
message ...

To add to this, a few months ago I met just that kind of guy.
(bought
some of his scrap, broken CNC machine for parts and general
surplus).

He started a CNC manufacturing operation in his garage. Kept it
going
and expanded. Right now he is renting an industrial unit, has a
bunch
of machines, people etc. He did not seem to be stupid and, I am
assuming that he is making money.

i

How do CNC job shoppers deal with customers who don't know quite what
they want and ask for engineering help? Even if you are only copying
something for a repair you don't have the original specs and
dimensions.

I am not in that business, and I find it to be generally unattractive
for myself. That particular guy I mentioned in my previous post, was
making certain engine parts for a leading lawnmower company. They know
what they want and he was making exactly what they wanted.

I would not want to have customers who want parts made and do not know
what exactly they need. I would try to gently send them elsewhere, and
if that does not help, not so gently.

i

I've done plenty of profitable work for people who didn't know exactly
what they needed. They pay extra for someone who can help them. What's
the problem with that?

On Saturday, November 2, 2013 5:03:09 PM UTC-7, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus11177" wrote in

message ...



To add to this, a few months ago I met just that kind of guy.

(bought

some of his scrap, broken CNC machine for parts and general

surplus).



He started a CNC manufacturing operation in his garage. Kept it

going

and expanded. Right now he is renting an industrial unit, has a

bunch

of machines, people etc. He did not seem to be stupid and, I am

assuming that he is making money.



i



How do CNC job shoppers deal with customers who don't know quite what

they want and ask for engineering help? Even if you are only copying

something for a repair you don't have the original specs and

dimensions.



jsw


Why would you ask a machining idiot like iggy this question? iggy has no idea how to run a machining job shop and has never worked in one. In addition, he can't machine his way out of a paper bag.

To answer your question:

If it's not a ton of work often you help the customer for free if they give you their machining business. It's a way to generate loyalty and good will.

On Saturday, November 2, 2013 5:14:44 PM UTC-7, Ignoramus11177 wrote:
On 2013-11-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in

message ...



To add to this, a few months ago I met just that kind of guy.

(bought

some of his scrap, broken CNC machine for parts and general

surplus).



He started a CNC manufacturing operation in his garage. Kept it

going

and expanded. Right now he is renting an industrial unit, has a

bunch

of machines, people etc. He did not seem to be stupid and, I am

assuming that he is making money.



i



How do CNC job shoppers deal with customers who don't know quite what

they want and ask for engineering help? Even if you are only copying

something for a repair you don't have the original specs and

dimensions.



I am not in that business, and I find it to be generally unattractive

for myself. That particular guy I mentioned in my previous post, was

making certain engine parts for a leading lawnmower company. They know

what they want and he was making exactly what they wanted.



I would not want to have customers who want parts made and do not know

what exactly they need. I would try to gently send them elsewhere, and

if that does not help, not so gently.



i

You want generally unattractive read your own posts that don't contain the necessary information when you ask for help.

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 19:14:44 -0500, Ignoramus11177
wrote:

On 2013-11-03, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ignoramus11177" wrote in
message ...

To add to this, a few months ago I met just that kind of guy.
(bought
some of his scrap, broken CNC machine for parts and general
surplus).

He started a CNC manufacturing operation in his garage. Kept it
going
and expanded. Right now he is renting an industrial unit, has a
bunch
of machines, people etc. He did not seem to be stupid and, I am
assuming that he is making money.

i

How do CNC job shoppers deal with customers who don't know quite what
they want and ask for engineering help? Even if you are only copying
something for a repair you don't have the original specs and
dimensions.

I am not in that business, and I find it to be generally unattractive
for myself. That particular guy I mentioned in my previous post, was
making certain engine parts for a leading lawnmower company. They know
what they want and he was making exactly what they wanted.

I would not want to have customers who want parts made and do not know
what exactly they need. I would try to gently send them elsewhere, and
if that does not help, not so gently.

i

Years ago I worked with a semi-retired guy that had a screw machine
shop in his garage. Three (I think he said) second hand B&S machines;
holes in the rear wall for the stock feeders and three Mexican girls
as operators.

He said that he did mostly small, non precision, jobs. One he
described was a brass knob drawer handle. The profit on that job was
the sale of the brass scrap :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:24:18 -0500, "RogerN" wrote:

"Ignoramus11177" wrote in message
...

On 2013-11-02, RogerN wrote:
snip

I'm not wanting a business loan, just money for the building.

What you described in your original post, is borrowing money for a
business operation.

Yeah, I wasn't clear. I already have the bulk of what I want for my shop, a
manual & CNC lathe, 2 manual mills plus a CNC mill, air compressor, press,
cherry picker, forklift, band saw, and so on. All I need is the building,
there would be minor other expenses, I figured in the electrical to the shop
plus inside plus light fixtures and outlets. Other expenses are like the
forklift needs a battery, need shelving, maybe a wall for office area and
tool room, and misc. things like that.

The building is something I want anyway, I'm not going to depend on any
income, that would just be a bonus. But I do think there's a chance as I
make things for hobby that it could grow to become a steady income possibly
beyond my day job. I have turned down paying machining work that I would
take if I had the shop handy, a friend rebuilds valves and cylinders, I can
make about $40 in 30 minutes machining a cylinder rod but loading up and
going to the shop makes it a couple hour ordeal. I can make the same rod in
the CNC lathe in about 5 minutes.

RogerN


I think that you are taking the wrong approach if you are talking to
the bank about money you may, or may not, earn from hobby machining.
The bank is going to look at it as a real estate question. Try doing
what the bank is likely to do:

Get an independent assessment of the sales value of your present
buildings and property and a second assessment if there were an
additional X by Y foot building on the lot.

Depreciate this assessment for by outstanding money owed on the
property and buildings, then depreciate this number for the possible
quick cash sales of the place.

You now have a number, less interest, that the bank might be
interested in discussing as some form of a mortgage against the value
of the buildings and land.

--
Cheers,

John B.

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message ...

How do CNC job shoppers deal with customers who don't know quite what
they want and ask for engineering help? Even if you are only copying
something for a repair you don't have the original specs and
dimensions.


I send them to the competitition, by raising my prices high enough to accurately reflect the additional time and hassle.