Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.

Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.


John Browning (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JohnBrowning.jpeg

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.

Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.


John Browning (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JohnBrowning.jpeg


Its been done in plastic already.

G


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

Richard on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

That it is.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:



Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


Mauser also made the '96 in 9mm Export, which was a .38 Super-class
round; the Shansei arsenal made a copy scaled to .45ACP! It's almost
as clunky as a Desert Eagle, but might be OK with a shoulder
stock.........

Regards,
Bob

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 11:41:19 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.

If you look up factory loaded pressures and perhaps double them for a
minimum you should be able to determine minimum barrel thickness.

[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"

Calculate chamber pressure add a healthy "fudge factor" and you'll
have the minimum thickness. which, I believe you will find is far
thinner then you will want to make them.

(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

Exactly.

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

Won't work that way. A barrel intended to shoot a .25" bullet of X
weight at 1,000 FPS will require a minimum strength different
thickness then a barrel intended for a .25" bullet of X weight at
3,000 FPS.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:01:07 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 11:41:19 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Bob on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 21:44:33 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".

Mauser also made the '96 in 9mm Export, which was a .38 Super-class
round; the Shansei arsenal made a copy scaled to .45ACP! It's almost
as clunky as a Desert Eagle, but might be OK with a shoulder
stock.........

But what size are the bullet? Just the lead part - length and
diameter?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Richard on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

That it is.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


Oh..these may be of assistance as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_handgun_cartridges

https://www.google.com/search?q=bull...ridge&safe=off

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm

That way you dont have to pay for the Saamsi book


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Richard on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

That it is.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


Some further info you might need

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm

I let my membership lapse several years ago so cant give you access
to the members side...but the info inside is readily available
elsewhere. (which is why I let my membership of many years..lapse)



"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 23:30:26 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:01:07 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 11:41:19 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe that all the
Browning cartridges head space on the case mouth, at least the ones I
had anything to do with did (although on second thought some of them
are semi-rimed I think). I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

With pullets shot out of an "automatic pistol" the radius of the
bullet point is more to do with the feeding of the cartridge into the
barrel then anything else.

There is a short tapered portion of the interior of the barrel, just
ahead of the chamber shoulder but that is more a factor of the bullet
being squeezed into the rifling. A revolver that seats the cartridges
outside the barrel still has a "forcing cone" - a short taper in the
rear of the barrel.

See
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/I.../1/LINER-40-65
for bore, lands and grooves measurements.

By the way, the above site says that a ".25 Colt Auto" is a 1 turn in
14 inches twist while I've seen it listed a 1-16 elsewhere.

--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

OK you're looking for the actual diameter and length of the bullet itself.

Diameter is simple - .251" or 6.37mm

50 grain FMJ run about 11.5-12mm long.



--
Steve W.

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is
constant the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and
possible the type point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that
there are few different bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all
of which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from
SAMMI (205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and
the standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at
the front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to
headspace on a semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding
on the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and
ultimately bullet stability.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
m:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is
constant the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and
possible the type point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that
there are few different bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all
of which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from
SAMMI (205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and
the standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at
the front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to
headspace on a semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding
on the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and
ultimately bullet stability.

He can download an image of a bullet from a component manufacturer and
scale the length off the diameter. Ought to be close enough for a cad
drawing.

Here's the only Speer offering.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...il.aspx?id=147

Pete Keillor

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com on Fri, 06 Sep
2013 07:13:25 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

What he said.

Lloyd
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at
the front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to
headspace on a semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length

I want to know this, because ...well "just because". Because I
want _all_ the details, because sometimes I get a wee tad too focused
on the details (I have been accused of trying to pick the fly specs
out of the pepper). Because there has to be some spec the bullet
makers use so that they know how little lead they can use in making
bullets. (Those hundredths of a gram add up.)
Because I am goofing about with the CAD software, and details are
everything.

And because I want a real drawing, complete with a seated bullet
in the cartridge. And the possibility (now) to include the bullet
itself in a separate drawing of it transiting the barrel.

as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding
on the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and
ultimately bullet stability.

The Greenhill formula , if memory serves.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 19:03:50 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe that all the
Browning cartridges head space on the case mouth, at least the ones I
had anything to do with did (although on second thought some of them
are semi-rimed I think). I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

Right now, I have a bullet 7.49 mm long (from base to point) which
merely sits on the cartridge - because I have an additional 0mm for
the cartridge/brass to grasp.

With pullets shot out of an "automatic pistol" the radius of the
bullet point is more to do with the feeding of the cartridge into the
barrel then anything else.

There is a short tapered portion of the interior of the barrel, just
ahead of the chamber shoulder but that is more a factor of the bullet
being squeezed into the rifling. A revolver that seats the cartridges
outside the barrel still has a "forcing cone" - a short taper in the
rear of the barrel.

The Forcing Cone I learned about. IT wants to be a bit larger
than the outside dimension of the bullet so that the bullet, launched
from the cylinder, will cross that gap, "land" inside the cone, and be
forced into concentricity with the axis of the barrel.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On 9/5/2013 10:29 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I do not know for sure, but if you check with the bullet manufactures
like Hornady or Sierra their on line sites might have bullet lengths. If
that doesn't help try to find a catalog from either one of them.

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
m:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Paul K. Dickman

"Paul K. Dickman" on Fri, 6 Sep 2013
13:08:37 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Thank you, that is the info I was after. At least for this case.

I think I am going to have to browse through the books on the
computer to see what I might have.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Tim Wescott on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

38 special v 357 - same diameter, different lengths (I think)

As I'm reading the documents SAAMI Says - the cartridge is to be
no more than C inches over all length And the brass is to be no more
than B inches in length. The Bullet can be anywhere from 1 mm to C
minus the thickness of the base. I'm sure that somewhere in between
is an optimal size.

It seems that I am going to have to make up a table of calibers
and bullet weights, then figure OAL lengths from that. It also seems
that someone else would have been as compulsive on this subject , and
already done that - and "published" the figures.
Wait, don't I have some reference manuals tuck away on the
external hard drive ...?



--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

Common? No..does it happen? Yes indeed. It largely depends on the
velocity the powder charge develops in conjunction with the rate of
twist in many cases.

It may blow up the bullet shortly after leaving the barrel if too
fast..and if too slow..may tumble like a thrown dog turd off the aimed
path.

As far as one brand of ammo not fitting in place of
another..yes...that too happens. American chambering practices are
occasionally at odds with foreign practices..along with quality
control. This most often shows up in surplus military ammo made for
turd world nations. IE...9mm Parabellum ammo wont load into a normal
commercial chamber in the West...because it was wide tolerance cheap
**** made to be shot out of guns that are badly worn, poorly made or
simply out of spec.

Then we have the practice of some nations for loading some ammunition
for special purposes at much higher pressures than are proper for
normal ammo. Again ...9mm submachine gun ammo is a well known culprit
of blowing up lightly made pistols or beating them to death in a short
period of time. The ammo was made HOT for use in subguns...and never
intended for use in sporting or even military pistols.

The first time I ran into this was with my very first P-38 semiauto.
An Aluminum framed French made Walther which I purchased along with a
couple hundred rounds of surplus 9mm....which I determined to have
been sub gun ammo after the first shot not only locked the slide
back..but sheared off bits and important pieces of the guts. It was
fixable for $50..but it ****ed me off. I tried it in another stronger
9mm..and it was noticably HOT!...and after tracking the headstamp
down..determined it was to be used in Spanish Destroyer
Carbines...which were not..not normally 9mm Para. Factory chamber..no
adapter.

Gunner



"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 13:08:37 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .
Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Paul K. Dickman

So you actually HAD one. Good lad! I gave all the poodle shooter
stuff away years ago when I sold the last Baby Browning.


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 13:08:37 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
. ..
Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one
will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Paul K. Dickman

So you actually HAD one. Good lad! I gave all the poodle shooter
stuff away years ago when I sold the last Baby Browning.


It was in the drawer full of loose cartridge, that I don't have guns for,
that wind up in my pocket every time I go shooting with someone.

Paul K. Dickman

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:18:03 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Tim Wescott on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
m:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

38 special v 357 - same diameter, different lengths (I think)

As I'm reading the documents SAAMI Says - the cartridge is to be
no more than C inches over all length And the brass is to be no more
than B inches in length. The Bullet can be anywhere from 1 mm to C
minus the thickness of the base. I'm sure that somewhere in between
is an optimal size.

It seems that I am going to have to make up a table of calibers
and bullet weights, then figure OAL lengths from that. It also seems
that someone else would have been as compulsive on this subject , and
already done that - and "published" the figures.
Wait, don't I have some reference manuals tuck away on the
external hard drive ...?

The difference between 38 Special and 357 Mag...is .100 of an inch.
One tenth of an inch.

The links I provided gave you cartridge length, total length, bullet
length, PSI, velocity etc etc etc

Or you can simply open up a Sierra Reloading Manual and look at their
drawings..(most other newer manuals also have each cartridge broken
down)

Oh..and Im sure you know why the 357 mag was made 1/10 of an inch
longer...right?

Gunner






--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 09:47:45 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is
constant the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and
possible the type point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that
there are few different bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all
of which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from
SAMMI (205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and
the standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at
the front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to
headspace on a semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding
on the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and
ultimately bullet stability.

He can download an image of a bullet from a component manufacturer and
scale the length off the diameter. Ought to be close enough for a cad
drawing.

Here's the only Speer offering.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...il.aspx?id=147

Pete Keillor

Certainly. But when he's got it, what is he going to do with it?

--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. fired this volley in
:

Certainly. But when he's got it, what is he going to do with it?

He's going to draw stuff, John! Half the 'fun' of designing a replica of
anything without original prints is trying to draw something that looks
right, then checking the fit of all the things you DO know the dimensions
of.

Since the only dimensions he can get are the cartridge and the bullets, he
starts there. Likely someone knows exactly what round it was chambered
for. Once he knows that, he can certainly come close on what size/weight
of projectile it had.

LLoyd

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 09:43:40 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 19:03:50 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe that all the
Browning cartridges head space on the case mouth, at least the ones I
had anything to do with did (although on second thought some of them
are semi-rimed I think). I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

Right now, I have a bullet 7.49 mm long (from base to point) which
merely sits on the cartridge - because I have an additional 0mm for
the cartridge/brass to grasp.

Sort of. SAAMI specifies a maximum overall length of 0.910" and a
minimum length of 0.860. the case length is specified as 0.615 -
0.020. Subtract one from the other tells you how much pullet
protrusion you can have in a "standard cartridge".

But, I'm a bit vague about why you are worrying about "bullet"
dimensions/



With pullets shot out of an "automatic pistol" the radius of the
bullet point is more to do with the feeding of the cartridge into the
barrel then anything else.

There is a short tapered portion of the interior of the barrel, just
ahead of the chamber shoulder but that is more a factor of the bullet
being squeezed into the rifling. A revolver that seats the cartridges
outside the barrel still has a "forcing cone" - a short taper in the
rear of the barrel.

The Forcing Cone I learned about. IT wants to be a bit larger
than the outside dimension of the bullet so that the bullet, launched
from the cylinder, will cross that gap, "land" inside the cone, and be
forced into concentricity with the axis of the barrel.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Yes, sort of. The specification for the .25 ACP shows a bullet
diameter of 0.251 -.0060. the forcing cone starts at a diameter of
0.2562, is 0.0259 long and ends at bore diameter which is 0.243.
However, that specification is for a integral chamber but I suspect
that a revolver would use a similar dimension.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 09:43:40 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at
the front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to
headspace on a semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length

I want to know this, because ...well "just because". Because I
want _all_ the details, because sometimes I get a wee tad too focused
on the details (I have been accused of trying to pick the fly specs
out of the pepper). Because there has to be some spec the bullet
makers use so that they know how little lead they can use in making
bullets. (Those hundredths of a gram add up.)
Because I am goofing about with the CAD software, and details are
everything.

And because I want a real drawing, complete with a seated bullet
in the cartridge. And the possibility (now) to include the bullet
itself in a separate drawing of it transiting the barrel.


If it is "just because" then likely getting pictures of various .25
cal pistol bullets and scaling the photograph will be sufficient.

I suspect that a bullet mold maker might furnish enough information,
see:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b....php?entryID=1
Unfortunately Lyman doesn't seem to make molds for a .25 cal pistol
and a quick look didn't turn up any others :-(

On second thought, if you just want an outline of a loaded .25 cal
cartridge why not use the SAAMI drawings?


as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding
on the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and
ultimately bullet stability.

The Greenhill formula , if memory serves.

Yes, but when you start driving .25 cal bullets at over 3,000 fps it
doesn't work quite so well :-)

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:18:03 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Tim Wescott on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
m:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

38 special v 357 - same diameter, different lengths (I think)

As I'm reading the documents SAAMI Says - the cartridge is to be
no more than C inches over all length And the brass is to be no more
than B inches in length. The Bullet can be anywhere from 1 mm to C
minus the thickness of the base. I'm sure that somewhere in between
is an optimal size.

It seems that I am going to have to make up a table of calibers
and bullet weights, then figure OAL lengths from that. It also seems
that someone else would have been as compulsive on this subject , and
already done that - and "published" the figures.
Wait, don't I have some reference manuals tuck away on the
external hard drive ...?


No. SAAMI specify a minimum and maximum overall length for ammunitions
and manufacturers make chambers to fit these dimensions. A cartridge
loaded with a 100 grain bullet or a 200 grain bullet are the same
overall length. The bullet is simply further down inside the case of
one.

The ogive (I think it is called) of one bullet may be different then
another but the overall length of the cartridge is essentially the
same.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 17:30:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:18:03 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Tim Wescott on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
om:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

38 special v 357 - same diameter, different lengths (I think)

As I'm reading the documents SAAMI Says - the cartridge is to be
no more than C inches over all length And the brass is to be no more
than B inches in length. The Bullet can be anywhere from 1 mm to C
minus the thickness of the base. I'm sure that somewhere in between
is an optimal size.

It seems that I am going to have to make up a table of calibers
and bullet weights, then figure OAL lengths from that. It also seems
that someone else would have been as compulsive on this subject , and
already done that - and "published" the figures.
Wait, don't I have some reference manuals tuck away on the
external hard drive ...?

The difference between 38 Special and 357 Mag...is .100 of an inch.
One tenth of an inch.

The links I provided gave you cartridge length, total length, bullet
length, PSI, velocity etc etc etc

Or you can simply open up a Sierra Reloading Manual and look at their
drawings..(most other newer manuals also have each cartridge broken
down)

Oh..and Im sure you know why the 357 mag was made 1/10 of an inch
longer...right?

Gunner

So you gun doesn't go BOOM?
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. on Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:26:41 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

And because I want a real drawing, complete with a seated bullet
in the cartridge. And the possibility (now) to include the bullet
itself in a separate drawing of it transiting the barrel.


If it is "just because" then likely getting pictures of various .25
cal pistol bullets and scaling the photograph will be sufficient.

I suspect that a bullet mold maker might furnish enough information,
see:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b....php?entryID=1
Unfortunately Lyman doesn't seem to make molds for a .25 cal pistol
and a quick look didn't turn up any others :-(

On second thought, if you just want an outline of a loaded .25 cal
cartridge why not use the SAAMI drawings?

That's what I started with. Gave me the cartridge size (OAL and
diameters) and I've scaled from that. I just got obsessive about
getting the bullet itself "complete". (Right now, the Part is an
extruded shell about 1mm thin. Not much punch in that. Hmm, maybe I
cam make a depeleted uranium core for it....

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

John B. on Sat, 07 Sep 2013 08:09:57 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 09:43:40 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 19:03:50 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe that all the
Browning cartridges head space on the case mouth, at least the ones I
had anything to do with did (although on second thought some of them
are semi-rimed I think). I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

Right now, I have a bullet 7.49 mm long (from base to point) which
merely sits on the cartridge - because I have an additional 0mm for
the cartridge/brass to grasp.

Sort of. SAAMI specifies a maximum overall length of 0.910" and a
minimum length of 0.860. the case length is specified as 0.615 -
0.020. Subtract one from the other tells you how much pullet
protrusion you can have in a "standard cartridge".

But, I'm a bit vague about why you are worrying about "bullet"
dimensions/

Because I want it Right! And it gives me a great excuse for why
I'm not getting anything else done between terms.



Yes, sort of. The specification for the .25 ACP shows a bullet
diameter of 0.251 -.0060. the forcing cone starts at a diameter of
0.2562, is 0.0259 long and ends at bore diameter which is 0.243.
However, that specification is for a integral chamber but I suspect
that a revolver would use a similar dimension.

From my reading, forcing cones on revolvers tend to be larger,
because of the issue of indexing. That is, loose tolerances or worn
mechanism may result in a chamber not lining up with the barrel, Sot
he manufacturer just makes a big funnel at the on end of the barrel to
catch the bullet in, and guide it to the center of the barrel.

--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Gunner Asch on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 17:30:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:18:03 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Tim Wescott on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
om:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

38 special v 357 - same diameter, different lengths (I think)

As I'm reading the documents SAAMI Says - the cartridge is to be
no more than C inches over all length And the brass is to be no more
than B inches in length. The Bullet can be anywhere from 1 mm to C
minus the thickness of the base. I'm sure that somewhere in between
is an optimal size.

It seems that I am going to have to make up a table of calibers
and bullet weights, then figure OAL lengths from that. It also seems
that someone else would have been as compulsive on this subject , and
already done that - and "published" the figures.
Wait, don't I have some reference manuals tuck away on the
external hard drive ...?

The difference between 38 Special and 357 Mag...is .100 of an inch.
One tenth of an inch.

The links I provided gave you cartridge length, total length, bullet
length, PSI, velocity etc etc etc

Or you can simply open up a Sierra Reloading Manual and look at their
drawings..(most other newer manuals also have each cartridge broken
down)

Oh..and Im sure you know why the 357 mag was made 1/10 of an inch
longer...right?

So you had to buy the new revolver to shoot it.


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

John B. on Sat, 07 Sep 2013 07:56:13 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

He can download an image of a bullet from a component manufacturer and
scale the length off the diameter. Ought to be close enough for a cad
drawing.

Here's the only Speer offering.

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballist...il.aspx?id=147

Pete Keillor

Certainly. But when he's got it, what is he going to do with it?

Looks like I'm going to build a spread sheet with various bullet
weights for each caliber, and let the computer do the guesstimating on
how long that bullet will be.

Oh, ford, now I'm going to have to compute accurate volumes. If
it isn't one thing it is another ... B-)
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com on Fri, 06 Sep
2013 20:08:33 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
John B. fired this volley in
:

Certainly. But when he's got it, what is he going to do with it?

He's going to draw stuff, John! Half the 'fun' of designing a replica of
anything without original prints is trying to draw something that looks
right, then checking the fit of all the things you DO know the dimensions
of.
With the "new" software, I can assemble all the parts and check
for fit/ clash, and "that's not gonna work" elements.

Since the only dimensions he can get are the cartridge and the bullets, he
starts there. Likely someone knows exactly what round it was chambered
for. Once he knows that, he can certainly come close on what size/weight
of projectile it had.

LLoyd
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 19:01:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 17:30:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:18:03 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Tim Wescott on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
news:vpfj29teg1db5ovkk069airlp5f1so0dpm@4ax. com:

I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.

It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.

Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.

(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")

38 special v 357 - same diameter, different lengths (I think)

As I'm reading the documents SAAMI Says - the cartridge is to be
no more than C inches over all length And the brass is to be no more
than B inches in length. The Bullet can be anywhere from 1 mm to C
minus the thickness of the base. I'm sure that somewhere in between
is an optimal size.

It seems that I am going to have to make up a table of calibers
and bullet weights, then figure OAL lengths from that. It also seems
that someone else would have been as compulsive on this subject , and
already done that - and "published" the figures.
Wait, don't I have some reference manuals tuck away on the
external hard drive ...?

The difference between 38 Special and 357 Mag...is .100 of an inch.
One tenth of an inch.

The links I provided gave you cartridge length, total length, bullet
length, PSI, velocity etc etc etc

Or you can simply open up a Sierra Reloading Manual and look at their
drawings..(most other newer manuals also have each cartridge broken
down)

Oh..and Im sure you know why the 357 mag was made 1/10 of an inch
longer...right?

So you had to buy the new revolver to shoot it.

Ayup..because the new 357 Magnum could be fired in any 38 Special..and
in many of those weapons..it became a mini grenade. On the other
hand...the 38 Heavy Duty were guns designed to shoot 38 Specials that
were pumped up to 357 magnum ballistics. The 38/44 Outdoorsman is
one. They commonly can be found opened up to accept the 357 and shoot
with no issues. Mine of course remains 38 Special..but I pump the
loads up to the Heavy Duty ballistics..which are on the Hot! side even
for 357 Magnum loadings.

http://americanhandgunner.com/the-3844-heavy-duty/


It is important to recognize that SAAMI changed the specifications for
the .38 Special in 1972. Prior to that time the standard .38 Special
was very close to today's "+P" cartridges.[28]

From another source...I rather like this...G

"Once there were 'cap and ball' revolvers. You had a bag full of lead
balls, a bag full of gunpowder, and a bag full of percussion caps. You
poured the powder into the revolver cylinder, pushed on the ball, and
put a percussion cap on the back.

A very common size of cap and ball revolver was a .36

Then some guys invented a totally enclosed cartridge and these were
very popular. People would convert their old revolvers for $5 rather
than buy a new one for $15. Also, a lot of factories rather than
throwing out parts for older style percussion revolvers just reamed
them out for the new 38 Colt cartridge

The type of ammo used for a converted .36 cap and ball was 38 colt
which had a heeled bullet of .376 diameter.

Well heeled bullets had some problems. They had to have their grease
rings exposed so that tended to get everywhere and tended to get full
of dirt. The solution was to make the bullet a tiny bit smaller than
the case. So after a while Colt switched to using .356 diameter
bullets.

Well, shooting a .356 bullet down a barrel ment for .376 didn't give
good accuracy. Also lots of people wanted a bit more power. so Colt
introduced the 38 Long Colt, also using a .357 diameter bullet but the
barrel was sized to match.


it was popular so Smith and Wesson introduced their own, which they
called 38 Smith and Wesson, but they used a different size bullet of
..361

The army bought a bunch of 38 Long revolvers, but then they got
attacked by some drugged up natives and it wasn't powerful enough to
kill em quick. So the Army wasn't happy. Other people wanted more
power too, so Smith and Wesson invented the 38 Special. Thing is, they
didn't choose the diameter of their existing 38 S&W cartridge, they
matched the .38 Long. This was because they wanted to sell to the
Army.

**So the 38 Special can also shoot 38 Long Colt and the 38 Colt.
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)

Well, guys wanted more power so they made a more powerful special
called the 38-44 Heavy Duty, sometimes just called 38 Heavy Duty or 38
HD.

***A gun chambered in 38-44 Heavy Duty can also shoot 38 special, 38
long colt, and 38 colt.
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)

The 38-44 Heavy Duty showed a lot of promise, however the cartridge
could fit into a gun designed for 38 special, but the 38 special gun
was deemed too weak and likely to blow apart. Gun and Ammo makers
thought this was a very dangerous position to put themselves and their
customers in.

The 357 magnum was invented as a 'long' version of the 38-44 Heavy
Duty and the Heavy Duty was discontinued. Also because the 357 was a
bit longer, they packed in more gunpowder making it more powerful than
the 38 Heavy Duty.

****a gun chambered in 357 Magnum can shoot also shoot 38-44 Heavy
Duty, 38 Special, 38 Long Colt, 38 Colt
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)

Well, then some guys figured 'let's make an even LONGER one' and they
called it the 357 Maximum.

*****a gun chambered in 357 maximum can also shoot 357 magnum, 38 HD,
38 Special, 38 Long Colt, 38 Colt
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)

Unfortunately, the 357 maximum was so hot it started to cut through
the backstrap of the revolver in which it was being fired so the ammo
and matching guns were discontinued very quickly"


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Oh..and Im sure you know why the 357 mag was made 1/10 of an inch
longer...right?

So you had to buy the new revolver to shoot it.


--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Sort of. It was made longer so it will not function in .38 special
weapons. The .357 is loaded to 2+ times the pressures of the .38
special. As such it can do very serious damage if you try to use it in a
..38 Special firearm. BUT the inverse is that if you have a revolver
chambered in .357 mag. you can use .38 special ammo in it for a reduced
pressure load for plinking and practice. Then work your way up to full
bore .357 loads.

It's similar to a pistol or single shot .22LR. In those you can shoot
..22 LR, .22Long, .22 Short, .22CB and .22BB



--
Steve W.