Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.

Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.


John Browning (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JohnBrowning.jpeg

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.

Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.


John Browning (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JohnBrowning.jpeg


Its been done in plastic already.

G


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

Richard on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

That it is.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:



Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


Mauser also made the '96 in 9mm Export, which was a .38 Super-class
round; the Shansei arsenal made a copy scaled to .45ACP! It's almost
as clunky as a Desert Eagle, but might be OK with a shoulder
stock.........

Regards,
Bob

Bob on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 21:44:33 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".

Mauser also made the '96 in 9mm Export, which was a .38 Super-class
round; the Shansei arsenal made a copy scaled to .45ACP! It's almost
as clunky as a Desert Eagle, but might be OK with a shoulder
stock.........

But what size are the bullet? Just the lead part - length and
diameter?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Richard on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

That it is.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


Oh..these may be of assistance as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_handgun_cartridges

https://www.google.com/search?q=bull...ridge&safe=off

http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/revolver.htm

That way you dont have to pay for the Saamsi book


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 19:29:56 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Richard on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

That it is.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


Some further info you might need

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm

I let my membership lapse several years ago so cant give you access
to the members side...but the info inside is readily available
elsewhere. (which is why I let my membership of many years..lapse)



"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

OK you're looking for the actual diameter and length of the bullet itself.

Diameter is simple - .251" or 6.37mm

50 grain FMJ run about 11.5-12mm long.



--
Steve W.

On 9/5/2013 10:29 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


32 grains of bullet at 1100 fps - almost 100 ft.lb.
Hardly metal working.
You could do that - in plastic.

I could. But I still want a "real" cartridge, with a lead bullet.

And I figure, "WTH - let us scale it up to take a 45 ACP." Which
is a "whole more serious" project.

Once this exercise is done, I move onto scaling up a 9mm Mauser
Broomhandle into something "serious".
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I do not know for sure, but if you check with the bullet manufactures
like Hornady or Sierra their on line sites might have bullet lengths. If
that doesn't help try to find a catalog from either one of them.

On 9/5/2013 9:29 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
on Thu, 05 Sep 2013 14:19:31 -0500
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 9/5/2013 1:41 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato

I had to Google that one, pytor.

Fugly little bruiser, isn't it.

That it is.

In the 1920s steel was still becoming steel.
It wouldn't take special alloys for this one.

The .25 doesn't look like much at first glance.
It's a straight walled cartridge, center-fire,
with a semi-rimmed head.

Here are a whole bunch of diameters for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.25_ACP
That should be a fair start.

That is, and gives me cartridge dimensions. Which is fair, but
I'm after the dimensions of the actual "bullet" (the lead pellet) the
round launches. I know the pellet is at least (23.11 - 15.62 =) 7.49
mm - but that is just from the tip of the pellet to the edge of the
cartridge rim.

Warning - bad ASCII art ahead B-)

Brass Cartridge length:
0------------v = 15.62 -.51 mm
__________
| |____
| |_____)
|_________ |

OAL Length -------^ is 23.11 mm

My question is How far left of the "v" (15.62) is the bullet seated? 1
mm? 2 mm? (Bullet over all length is 7.49 mm +????mm)


Here is one...

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/...let_sketch.jpg

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/...amber01_70.jpg

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/25_acp.html

That's all I found though...

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 11:41:19 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.

If you look up factory loaded pressures and perhaps double them for a
minimum you should be able to determine minimum barrel thickness.

[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"

Calculate chamber pressure add a healthy "fudge factor" and you'll
have the minimum thickness. which, I believe you will find is far
thinner then you will want to make them.

(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

Exactly.

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

Won't work that way. A barrel intended to shoot a .25" bullet of X
weight at 1,000 FPS will require a minimum strength different
thickness then a barrel intended for a .25" bullet of X weight at
3,000 FPS.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:01:07 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 11:41:19 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 23:30:26 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:01:07 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 05 Sep 2013 11:41:19 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe that all the
Browning cartridges head space on the case mouth, at least the ones I
had anything to do with did (although on second thought some of them
are semi-rimed I think). I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

With pullets shot out of an "automatic pistol" the radius of the
bullet point is more to do with the feeding of the cartridge into the
barrel then anything else.

There is a short tapered portion of the interior of the barrel, just
ahead of the chamber shoulder but that is more a factor of the bullet
being squeezed into the rifling. A revolver that seats the cartridges
outside the barrel still has a "forcing cone" - a short taper in the
rear of the barrel.

See
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/I.../1/LINER-40-65
for bore, lands and grooves measurements.

By the way, the above site says that a ".25 Colt Auto" is a 1 turn in
14 inches twist while I've seen it listed a 1-16 elsewhere.

--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

Lloyd

That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is
constant the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and
possible the type point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that
there are few different bullets available.

So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all
of which would be different length.

He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from
SAMMI (205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and
the standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.

Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.

The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at
the front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to
headspace on a semi-rim.

I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.

I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding
on the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and
ultimately bullet stability.
--
Cheers,

John B.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com on Fri, 06 Sep
2013 07:13:25 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
John B. fired this volley in
:

I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just in
a loaded cartridge.

What he said.

Lloyd
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 19:03:50 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe that all the
Browning cartridges head space on the case mouth, at least the ones I
had anything to do with did (although on second thought some of them
are semi-rimed I think). I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

Right now, I have a bullet 7.49 mm long (from base to point) which
merely sits on the cartridge - because I have an additional 0mm for
the cartridge/brass to grasp.

With pullets shot out of an "automatic pistol" the radius of the
bullet point is more to do with the feeding of the cartridge into the
barrel then anything else.

There is a short tapered portion of the interior of the barrel, just
ahead of the chamber shoulder but that is more a factor of the bullet
being squeezed into the rifling. A revolver that seats the cartridges
outside the barrel still has a "forcing cone" - a short taper in the
rear of the barrel.

The Forcing Cone I learned about. IT wants to be a bit larger
than the outside dimension of the bullet so that the bullet, launched
from the cylinder, will cross that gap, "land" inside the cone, and be
forced into concentricity with the axis of the barrel.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 09:43:40 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

John B. on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 19:03:50 +0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

Bullet diameter is 0.251".

Length?
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. I believe that all the
Browning cartridges head space on the case mouth, at least the ones I
had anything to do with did (although on second thought some of them
are semi-rimed I think). I think that you are talking about the
dimensions of the part of the bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.

Right now, I have a bullet 7.49 mm long (from base to point) which
merely sits on the cartridge - because I have an additional 0mm for
the cartridge/brass to grasp.

Sort of. SAAMI specifies a maximum overall length of 0.910" and a
minimum length of 0.860. the case length is specified as 0.615 -
0.020. Subtract one from the other tells you how much pullet
protrusion you can have in a "standard cartridge".

But, I'm a bit vague about why you are worrying about "bullet"
dimensions/



With pullets shot out of an "automatic pistol" the radius of the
bullet point is more to do with the feeding of the cartridge into the
barrel then anything else.

There is a short tapered portion of the interior of the barrel, just
ahead of the chamber shoulder but that is more a factor of the bullet
being squeezed into the rifling. A revolver that seats the cartridges
outside the barrel still has a "forcing cone" - a short taper in the
rear of the barrel.

The Forcing Cone I learned about. IT wants to be a bit larger
than the outside dimension of the bullet so that the bullet, launched
from the cylinder, will cross that gap, "land" inside the cone, and be
forced into concentricity with the axis of the barrel.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

Yes, sort of. The specification for the .25 ACP shows a bullet
diameter of 0.251 -.0060. the forcing cone starts at a diameter of
0.2562, is 0.0259 long and ends at bore diameter which is 0.243.
However, that specification is for a integral chamber but I suspect
that a revolver would use a similar dimension.
--
Cheers,

John B.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Paul K. Dickman

"Paul K. Dickman" on Fri, 6 Sep 2013
13:08:37 -0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Thank you, that is the info I was after. At least for this case.

I think I am going to have to browse through the books on the
computer to see what I might have.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 13:08:37 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .
Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Paul K. Dickman

So you actually HAD one. Good lad! I gave all the poodle shooter
stuff away years ago when I sold the last Baby Browning.


"The socialist movement takes great pains to circulate frequently new labels for its ideally constructed state.
Each worn-out label is replaced by another which raises hopes of an ultimate solution of the insoluble basic
problem of Socialism, until it becomes obvious that nothing has been changed but the name.
The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
than what used to be called Planned Economy and State Socialism, and that State Capitalism, Planned Economy,
and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 13:08:37 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
. ..
Greetings

I have a couple questions on bullet sizes and barrel thickness.

In order to keep my hand in over summer break, I'm in the midst of
a CAD project. Maybe I can learn a few things too, about CAD, Catia
and the object of my project.
Yes, for "grins and giggles", I am attempting to gin up drawings
for the 6.35 mm "Pistola Con Caricato". The three barrel 18 shot one
off from the 1920's. Yeah, that one.
So, I have the SAAMI pdf with the dimension of the standard .25
cal / 6.35x16mmSR Browning cartridge. "Way cool" - but it did cause a
bit of "redrawing" as I had made preliminary drawings with a dimension
of 6.35 mm. "oops" (Actually, I was trying to get the geometry
sorted out, how to get lines to start where I wanted them, instead of
the apparent random location the program defaults to.)
Anyway, I now have a nice profile of a standard 6.36x16mmSR round
- bullet and cartridge. [23.11 mm OAL, as per spec]. What I don't
know however is: how long is the bullet itself?
"As Drawn" the bullet has nothing inside the brass to hold it
together. While this may not be a serious problem for merely drafting
a chamber for the cartridge, it offends my Professional Standards to
not have a "real bullet" correctly sized which can then be matched up
with the cartridge, and then that Assembly inserted into the Cylinder
Unit.

So, my questions:
1) Does anyone have the specs for the bullets themselves? Or a
link to where those same specs can be found?

2) Barrel dimensions. I have learned so far that the 25ACP is a
"low power" round, so barrel thickness is not a serious matter. I'm
guesstimating from the half dozen available photos somewhere around 2
to 3 mm thickness, which gives a diameter of 10.35 to 11.35 mm, if
based off the bullet diameter, 11 to 13 mm if base off the cartridge
diameter.
[FWI, I have set this up with the semi-deranged idea that I can
change a few constants and viola - scale it up to .38, 38 Special,
357, 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or down to a .22 short. Or whatever. [.600
Nitro Express? .50 BMG?]

So, I need a formula of some sort, or a reference chart, that will
provide me with some kind of ball park figure for the actual barrel
thickness ( radius of the out side of the barrel minus the bore
radius). As in "If you were going to bore a hole the length of a steel
round to serve as a barrel, what radius/diameter round would you
need?"
(As I sit here, I realize I can start by boring a hole in a 6 inch
cube, then turn the cube down concentric to the axis, until I get a
barrel radius of the size I want. But that size is also determined by
the strength of the material, the pressure in the chamber, intended
amount felt recoil, and so forth. But I don't know what outside
diameter should be. (Yeah, I know - "About that much, plus or minus a
quart...")

So, does anyone have ballpark figures for determining barrel
dimensions, based upon the size bullet / cartridge it is to fire? Part
of me thinks even an "X is safe, plus a safety margin of Y%" would
work. At least for a "proof of concept" silliness.

I think I am going to have to take that class on materials
properties.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
Discussing the decline in the US's tech edge, James Niccol once wrote
"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at producing stuff teenaged
boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

These guys will yammer on forever about how to get an answer but no one
will
do it.
I just pulled one apart.

The bullet is .445 in long.
it was imbedded .155 in into the case mouth.
The ogive starts just forward of the embedment.
Standard factory FMJ 50gr

Paul K. Dickman

So you actually HAD one. Good lad! I gave all the poodle shooter
stuff away years ago when I sold the last Baby Browning.


It was in the drawer full of loose cartridge, that I don't have guns for,
that wind up in my pocket every time I go shooting with someone.

Paul K. Dickman