On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 19:01:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
Gunner Asch on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 17:30:42 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:18:03 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
Tim Wescott on Fri, 06 Sep 2013 12:38:17
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 20:58:57 +0700, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 07:13:25 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
John B. fired this volley in
news:vpfj29teg1db5ovkk069airlp5f1so0dpm@4ax. com:
I think that you are talking about the dimensions of the part of the
bullet that sticks out of the case,
which, other then overall length, isn't much of consideration, at
least for a .25 Browning.
No, John. What he wants to know is the overall length of the projectile
itself (showing that portion that's seated in the cartridge), so that he
can draw a bullet SEPARATELY from the cartridge, for the purposes of
showing it elsewhere in the firing path, besides just in the wheel, just
in a loaded cartridge.
Lloyd
That is going to be difficult to find as while the diameter is constant
the length of the bullet will depend on the weight and possible the type
point, although for a .25 auto it is likely that there are few different
bullets available.
So, the first question would be, what make of ammo and what bullet
weight as I find reference to several weights. 35, 45 and 50 gr. all of
which would be different length.
He might have a look at the SAMMI (sporting arms and ammunition
manufacturers institute) http://www.saami.org/ who publish a lot data
about commercially loaded ammunition. I downloaded a document from SAMMI
(205.pdf) that shows both the standard cartridge dimensions and the
standard chamber dimensions, including the standard throating.
Case diameter us shown as 0.278 and length is listed as 0.615 - .020".
Overall cartridge length is 0.860 min/.910 max.
The standard chamber is 0.2828 in diameter, and tapers to 0.2798 at the
front and is 0.0.638" in length. The cartridge appears to headspace on a
semi-rim.
I'm still a bit vague about the need for bullet length as it is never
really used in fitting a barrel or action. The action needs to be able
to handle the maximum cartridge length, the ejection port the maximum
case length, and the bullet is long gone down the barrel.
I've only seen Bullet length taken into consideration when deciding on
the rifling twist which in turn effects bullet rotation and ultimately
bullet stability.
It seems like it'd have a strong impact on the gun operation if it sticks
out the front of the cylinder, though.
Presumably you want to decide on what ammo you do and do not want to
support, and either accept a long cylinder, or accept that there's some
ammo that's just too long to fit.
(Is it common to have ammunition that does not fit some particular make
and model of revolver? I.e., is there some popular revolver out there
that comes with the statement "well, those bullets won't work in that
gun: everyone knows that!")
38 special v 357 - same diameter, different lengths (I think)
As I'm reading the documents SAAMI Says - the cartridge is to be
no more than C inches over all length And the brass is to be no more
than B inches in length. The Bullet can be anywhere from 1 mm to C
minus the thickness of the base. I'm sure that somewhere in between
is an optimal size.
It seems that I am going to have to make up a table of calibers
and bullet weights, then figure OAL lengths from that. It also seems
that someone else would have been as compulsive on this subject , and
already done that - and "published" the figures.
Wait, don't I have some reference manuals tuck away on the
external hard drive ...?
The difference between 38 Special and 357 Mag...is .100 of an inch.
One tenth of an inch.
The links I provided gave you cartridge length, total length, bullet
length, PSI, velocity etc etc etc
Or you can simply open up a Sierra Reloading Manual and look at their
drawings..(most other newer manuals also have each cartridge broken
down)
Oh..and Im sure you know why the 357 mag was made 1/10 of an inch
longer...right?
So you had to buy the new revolver to shoot it.
Ayup..because the new 357 Magnum could be fired in any 38 Special..and
in many of those weapons..it became a mini grenade. On the other
hand...the 38 Heavy Duty were guns designed to shoot 38 Specials that
were pumped up to 357 magnum ballistics. The 38/44 Outdoorsman is
one. They commonly can be found opened up to accept the 357 and shoot
with no issues. Mine of course remains 38 Special..but I pump the
loads up to the Heavy Duty ballistics..which are on the Hot! side even
for 357 Magnum loadings.
http://americanhandgunner.com/the-3844-heavy-duty/
It is important to recognize that SAAMI changed the specifications for
the .38 Special in 1972. Prior to that time the standard .38 Special
was very close to today's "+P" cartridges.[28]
From another source...I rather like this...G
"Once there were 'cap and ball' revolvers. You had a bag full of lead
balls, a bag full of gunpowder, and a bag full of percussion caps. You
poured the powder into the revolver cylinder, pushed on the ball, and
put a percussion cap on the back.
A very common size of cap and ball revolver was a .36
Then some guys invented a totally enclosed cartridge and these were
very popular. People would convert their old revolvers for $5 rather
than buy a new one for $15. Also, a lot of factories rather than
throwing out parts for older style percussion revolvers just reamed
them out for the new 38 Colt cartridge
The type of ammo used for a converted .36 cap and ball was 38 colt
which had a heeled bullet of .376 diameter.
Well heeled bullets had some problems. They had to have their grease
rings exposed so that tended to get everywhere and tended to get full
of dirt. The solution was to make the bullet a tiny bit smaller than
the case. So after a while Colt switched to using .356 diameter
bullets.
Well, shooting a .356 bullet down a barrel ment for .376 didn't give
good accuracy. Also lots of people wanted a bit more power. so Colt
introduced the 38 Long Colt, also using a .357 diameter bullet but the
barrel was sized to match.
it was popular so Smith and Wesson introduced their own, which they
called 38 Smith and Wesson, but they used a different size bullet of
..361
The army bought a bunch of 38 Long revolvers, but then they got
attacked by some drugged up natives and it wasn't powerful enough to
kill em quick. So the Army wasn't happy. Other people wanted more
power too, so Smith and Wesson invented the 38 Special. Thing is, they
didn't choose the diameter of their existing 38 S&W cartridge, they
matched the .38 Long. This was because they wanted to sell to the
Army.
**So the 38 Special can also shoot 38 Long Colt and the 38 Colt.
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)
Well, guys wanted more power so they made a more powerful special
called the 38-44 Heavy Duty, sometimes just called 38 Heavy Duty or 38
HD.
***A gun chambered in 38-44 Heavy Duty can also shoot 38 special, 38
long colt, and 38 colt.
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)
The 38-44 Heavy Duty showed a lot of promise, however the cartridge
could fit into a gun designed for 38 special, but the 38 special gun
was deemed too weak and likely to blow apart. Gun and Ammo makers
thought this was a very dangerous position to put themselves and their
customers in.
The 357 magnum was invented as a 'long' version of the 38-44 Heavy
Duty and the Heavy Duty was discontinued. Also because the 357 was a
bit longer, they packed in more gunpowder making it more powerful than
the 38 Heavy Duty.
****a gun chambered in 357 Magnum can shoot also shoot 38-44 Heavy
Duty, 38 Special, 38 Long Colt, 38 Colt
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)
Well, then some guys figured 'let's make an even LONGER one' and they
called it the 357 Maximum.
*****a gun chambered in 357 maximum can also shoot 357 magnum, 38 HD,
38 Special, 38 Long Colt, 38 Colt
(but cannot shoot 38 S&W)
Unfortunately, the 357 maximum was so hot it started to cut through
the backstrap of the revolver in which it was being fired so the ammo
and matching guns were discontinued very quickly"
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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The most recent slogan is "State Capitalism."[Fascism] It is not commonly realized that this covers nothing more
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and State Socialism diverge only in non-essentials from the "classic" ideal of egalitarian Socialism. - Ludwig von Mises (1922)