On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 16:43:56 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:35:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 10:41:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Well, it's time to pull out those stitches. Wish me luck. Part of
the reason I went to the ER is to quiz the doctor about lido. I have
some 4% cream. He said the liquid lido he uses goes bad fairly quickly
and needs to be refrigerated, so I couldn't bring it home. He also
cautioned me about using it for large areas, such as very long cuts or
burned areas. I hadn't realized it could be toxic, or even fatal, if
used in large doses. He said they use limb blocks for the large cuts,
like sheetmetal (or sword?) wounds. Anyway, my cream is ready for me
if it's needed for five little stitches... g

3 minutes later: I had no problem with the stitches. The Ethilon slid
easily out of the skin in under a minute. No blood, pain, or fuss.
Debriding took a bit longer, removing old skin and scab material, so
it's all ready for work again tomorrow with a fresh bandaid over it.

You have just earned your Survivalist Neophyte First Aid Badge.

Tendjewberrymud.


Next step up is putting in your own stitches (if really needed) and
determining if they are Really Needed.

I still feel they were necessary. I don't mind closing a 1/8" gap on
meat, and have done so several times. But the 3/16" gap on flappy
skin which stretched open every time I closed my hand was too wide to
safely butterfly shut. I have sutures for the future, when needed.
They're also Ethilon, so they have no real expiration date like the
flighty silk suture does. They pull out quite easily, too, I found
out. Me -like- that. g

http://www.face-body.com/topical.htm

Etc etc.

I keep a dozen or so suture kits around the homestead. A couple times
a year one of the critters or the roommates will open themselves up
badly enough for stitches, though I generally will use butterflys on
the roommates before sutures.

Vet supply places are far far cheaper for this sort of thing than are
med outlets

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07554-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&ccd=IFF003&utm_source=google&utm_medi um=cpc&utm_campaign=F%2BCat%2BLivestock%2BEquip%2B And%2BSupp%2B%286000%29%2BPLA&mr:trackingCode=0A4A C464-3C81-E211-BA78-001B21631C34&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad= 15165183283&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=351923 59003&gclid=COjZ4Leox7cCFa9cQgodj2kASQ


Best suture kit available on the net?

Postby Apache » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:13 pm
Depends how often you use the kit and if it's only intended to be used
for suturing or a bit of minor surgery. I would make a kit up myself
with the following:
Needleholder (personal choice)
Rat toothed forceps
Plain (Addison) forceps
Fine straight scissors
suture scissors
No 3 scalpel handle (& 5 No 10 blade, 5 No 11 & 5 No 12)
mosquito artery forceps (3X if for minor Sx)
(2 Spencer Wells forceps, curved & a pair of Mayo scissors if for
minor Sx)

Keep em in a 30 cal can with argon infused in it before closing.

Gunner

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 19:51:14 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

The problem is that the Powers That Be -want- the bad guys to act
out
so they can engage Martial Law. How many of the recent decades'
terrorist acts on US soil were devised or encouraged by our good old
fed gov't (or the powers behind it?) I'm not at all encouraged by
the
results of my research along those lines.

Scary, anti-freedom concepts: New World Order, Agenda 21.

Do you think those 2nd-rate labor lawyers are really dumb and arrogant
enough to play Game of Thrones against military officers who have
practiced oriental politics in Iraq and Afghanistan? Undo the rule of
law and the strong and bold will take over, while the Left is still
arguing over a vegan menu.


LOL! Indeed!


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:59:59 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



That sleeve is what keeps the barrel from exploding in the sub
calibers

Exactly.

And the current ones are 13 ga and 19ga ... there about..so 12ga/20ga
rounds don't fit in them anymore.

Nope, you can still buy 12 ga. flare guns. Amazon sells them
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1001010101
or West Marine
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...w#.UasvTrRH4g0

And one can buy surplus military flare guns from WW2 and WW1. The
average person doesnt know about them, quite frankly

Probably and very likely.


Match heads work well enough for priming

Sort of ridiculous, in America :-)

At this moment...Id agree. In 5 yrs or less?

Who knows. But maybe a couple of flint locks in the back of the gun
cabinet might be a good idea. And **** in a bottle to make the salt
peter and the rest of it is easy.


All you need to do...is to incapacitate the better armed
individial..and take his good gun and ammo...and pass your weapon to
the next guy in line and let him harvest his own good gun and ammo,
repeat as necessary......

Old hat these days. Today you get your backers to buy proper weapons.
Trying to shoot a cop so you can steel his gun is dangerous.

Indeed it is. But we are not talking about shooting cops..but Nato
troops for example.

Well, you seemed to be talking about a rebellion and usually it is the
cops that get it in the neck when the lads try to arm themselves.

They tried it a year or so here in Thailand. A bunch of the brothers,
lacking guns, attacked a police post with knives. Killed one Cop. But
unfortunately the other two cops had M-16's and it ended up Bad Guys
1, Cops something like 15.




Those who forget history...are often forced to repeat it.

The actual quotation is "Those who cannot remember the past are
condemned to repeat it."

No "often" mentioned.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 13:07:27 GMT, Doug White
wrote:

John B. wrote in
:

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 21:23:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 19:29:55 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 02:30:59 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ignoramus20161 wrote:
On 2013-06-01, Steve W. wrote:
http://www.guns.com/2013/05/31/3d-pr...gets-community
-update-version-1-1/

Is that for a famous gun that cannot shoot, due to being a plastic
gun?

i

It has been tested and does fire.
This is actually an updated version that can be printed on cheaper
machines.


But how much do the "cheaper" machines cost. The last time I looked
one could buy a lot of guns for the price of a 3D printer :-)

True..but its hard to buy a lot of guns that have zero detection
signature. That has to add a fair amount of "value" for some people.

From the pictures it looks like a single shot "zip-gun" and those can
be made in any home shop for almost nothing.

True indeed. However...they show up on metal detectors.


So? Make the barrel out of plastic than. The whole thing is a tempest
in a tea pot and if you are really into the machine business you know
it too. How long, and how much money, to drill a hole lengthwise
through, say a 1 inch diameter fiberglass rod, 3 inches long. Whittle
out an 'L' shaped of wood for a stock, bend a nail for the hammer and
some rubber bands for the hammer spring. I'll bet is appreciably
cheaper than the 3D printer :-)

The point is not that it's a good way to make a gun. It also isn't that
there aren't easier ways to make something better.

The point is that it's a great way to freak out the liberals who want to
control everything and everyone because THEY know what is best for
everybody. It's a simple demonstration that even they can understand, and
I hope it scares the wits out of them.

Doug White

Right. An unrifled, short barrel, single shot pistol. Well that
description fits the gun used to kill Lincoln but his body guard was
having a beer in the pub at the time.

A far more reliable method is to cram your jockey shorts full of
dynamite and hustle up to "shake the hand of a great American". No
politician could ignore that.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 09:56:18 -0500, Richard
wrote:


There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has
is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough
criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that
it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.

Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for
anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor
enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of
law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt.

Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you
understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.

('Atlas Shrugged' 1957)


Old Annie really had a few brain spasms, didn't she.

But Richard, really, truly, do you think the G'ment would rather have
old Richard there, paying his taxes on time, or some evil lawbreaker
that they catch and toss in the clink and than have to pay out good
money to keep him there.

What the Government really wants is a complacent population that keeps
their nose to the grindstone and pays their taxes on time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 09:11:40 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 06:59:14 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 21:23:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 19:29:55 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 02:30:59 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ignoramus20161 wrote:
On 2013-06-01, Steve W. wrote:
http://www.guns.com/2013/05/31/3d-pr...e-version-1-1/

Is that for a famous gun that cannot shoot, due to being a plastic gun?

i

It has been tested and does fire.
This is actually an updated version that can be printed on cheaper machines.


But how much do the "cheaper" machines cost. The last time I looked
one could buy a lot of guns for the price of a 3D printer :-)

True..but its hard to buy a lot of guns that have zero detection
signature. That has to add a fair amount of "value" for some people.

From the pictures it looks like a single shot "zip-gun" and those can
be made in any home shop for almost nothing.

True indeed. However...they show up on metal detectors.

The printed gun was never designed to be a "threat to the public"..but
a warning shot fired across the governments bows. And the Government
acted EXACTLY as the builders believed they would. Which means that
the Government is as predictable as a chronometer and it shows that
the Constitution means **** to them in fact and in deed.

So much for that pesky First AND Second Amendments...which the
designers called exactly spot on.

And it also showed the people..that the lumbering behemoth we call
Government is virtually helpless.

Which is why Im amused by the Leftwingers who threaten the People with
Hornet aircraft and Rockeye bombs and so forth.

To use them to attack revolutionaries...means the government kills
endless piles of the innocent and their very own supporters to
maybe..maybe kill one insurectionist.

They simply dont think..they simply threaten..and dont understand its
an empty threat.

"If you *******s dont knock it off..we are going to nuke LA!!"

Go ahead..you will kill millions of the innocent..and millions of
Democrat voters. Not a bad trade for a couple insurectionists and
the now directed hatred of more millions of the survivors towards the
government. A propaganda coup of the century!

The Left simply doesnt understand what Aysemetrical Warfare is...and
why America is such a marvelous place for it to be employed...and such
a miserable, deadly place for it to be defended against.

The problem is that the Powers That Be -want- the bad guys to act out
so they can engage Martial Law. How many of the recent decades'
terrorist acts on US soil were devised or encouraged by our good old
fed gov't (or the powers behind it?) I'm not at all encouraged by the
results of my research along those lines.

True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:26:34 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:59:59 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



That sleeve is what keeps the barrel from exploding in the sub
calibers

Exactly.

And the current ones are 13 ga and 19ga ... there about..so 12ga/20ga
rounds don't fit in them anymore.

Nope, you can still buy 12 ga. flare guns. Amazon sells them
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1001010101
or West Marine
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...w#.UasvTrRH4g0

And one can buy surplus military flare guns from WW2 and WW1. The
average person doesnt know about them, quite frankly

Probably and very likely.


Match heads work well enough for priming

Sort of ridiculous, in America :-)

At this moment...Id agree. In 5 yrs or less?

Who knows. But maybe a couple of flint locks in the back of the gun
cabinet might be a good idea. And **** in a bottle to make the salt
peter and the rest of it is easy.

Or keep 50 lbs of fertilizer on hand. One can make "black powder" from
certain fertilizers


All you need to do...is to incapacitate the better armed
individial..and take his good gun and ammo...and pass your weapon to
the next guy in line and let him harvest his own good gun and ammo,
repeat as necessary......

Old hat these days. Today you get your backers to buy proper weapons.
Trying to shoot a cop so you can steel his gun is dangerous.

Indeed it is. But we are not talking about shooting cops..but Nato
troops for example.

Well, you seemed to be talking about a rebellion and usually it is the
cops that get it in the neck when the lads try to arm themselves.

They tried it a year or so here in Thailand. A bunch of the brothers,
lacking guns, attacked a police post with knives. Killed one Cop. But
unfortunately the other two cops had M-16's and it ended up Bad Guys
1, Cops something like 15.

Knives? What...Thailand has Leftwing morons like we do???




Those who forget history...are often forced to repeat it.

The actual quotation is "Those who cannot remember the past are
condemned to repeat it."

No "often" mentioned.

If I had put quotes around it...it would have meant I was quoting ...I
didnt.

Gunner

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:



True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

Probably not. But I wouldnt be in very good shape. But on the other
hand..I wouldnt have laid on a gurney for 4 hours waiting for them to
finish up with a couple dozen illegal aliens either..who got their
medical care for free. Entirely free..and have been getting their
families medical care for free as well. Along with welfare, education
etc etc etc.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

Ask the folks who instituted that law. and all the people who have
skated free on their bills. Democrats instituted it..didnt they?

Im still paying the bill and will be doing it for decades. What...you
think I got it for free? Think again. Laugh...Ive got a lien on my
home by San Bernadeno County for $135k. And Ive paid them about $15k
so far.

So I cant sell the place and "reap my profits" ....laugh.... as you
seem to think



As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and? Tell that to the illegal aliens and the people who ****ed up
the economy so my income went right into the ****ter and forced me to
drop my medical insurance 2 months before the heart attack.

Tell that to the 48 Million unemployed as well who are using that same
law for themselves and their families..because they too dont have
medical insurance.

Or do you think I should have filed bankruptcy and simply walked away
from all my bills? If I was trying to get "something for
free"...tell all the readers why I havent.

Feel free...trot it out. We will all be amused.

Gunner

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 00:04:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 16:43:56 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:35:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 10:41:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Well, it's time to pull out those stitches. Wish me luck. Part of
the reason I went to the ER is to quiz the doctor about lido. I have
some 4% cream. He said the liquid lido he uses goes bad fairly quickly
and needs to be refrigerated, so I couldn't bring it home. He also
cautioned me about using it for large areas, such as very long cuts or
burned areas. I hadn't realized it could be toxic, or even fatal, if
used in large doses. He said they use limb blocks for the large cuts,
like sheetmetal (or sword?) wounds. Anyway, my cream is ready for me
if it's needed for five little stitches... g

3 minutes later: I had no problem with the stitches. The Ethilon slid
easily out of the skin in under a minute. No blood, pain, or fuss.
Debriding took a bit longer, removing old skin and scab material, so
it's all ready for work again tomorrow with a fresh bandaid over it.

You have just earned your Survivalist Neophyte First Aid Badge.

Tendjewberrymud.


Next step up is putting in your own stitches (if really needed) and
determining if they are Really Needed.

I still feel they were necessary. I don't mind closing a 1/8" gap on
meat, and have done so several times. But the 3/16" gap on flappy
skin which stretched open every time I closed my hand was too wide to
safely butterfly shut. I have sutures for the future, when needed.
They're also Ethilon, so they have no real expiration date like the
flighty silk suture does. They pull out quite easily, too, I found
out. Me -like- that. g

http://www.face-body.com/topical.htm

Etc etc.

I keep a dozen or so suture kits around the homestead. A couple times
a year one of the critters or the roommates will open themselves up
badly enough for stitches, though I generally will use butterflys on
the roommates before sutures.

Vet supply places are far far cheaper for this sort of thing than are
med outlets

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07554-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&ccd=IFF003&utm_source=google&utm_medi um=cpc&utm_campaign=F%2BCat%2BLivestock%2BEquip%2B And%2BSupp%2B%286000%29%2BPLA&mr:trackingCode=0A4A C464-3C81-E211-BA78-001B21631C34&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad= 15165183283&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=351923 59003&gclid=COjZ4Leox7cCFa9cQgodj2kASQ

Yeah, I found MedVetIntl on eBay and got a dozen 3-0 suture kits for
$11.49, delivered. Wow, $10.78 now: http://tinyurl.com/kdhw97u


Best suture kit available on the net?

Postby Apache » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:13 pm
Depends how often you use the kit and if it's only intended to be used
for suturing or a bit of minor surgery. I would make a kit up myself
with the following:
Needleholder (personal choice)
Rat toothed forceps
Plain (Addison) forceps
Fine straight scissors
suture scissors
No 3 scalpel handle (& 5 No 10 blade, 5 No 11 & 5 No 12)
mosquito artery forceps (3X if for minor Sx)
(2 Spencer Wells forceps, curved & a pair of Mayo scissors if for
minor Sx)

I have a similar kit. $8.79 + $3.28 s/h. http://tinyurl.com/mdro6hj
They're a bit more now, but still _very_ reasonable. I was amused to
find that the tools the ER doctor used were also made in Pakistan. He
let me bring them home, so my kit is now enlarged.


Keep em in a 30 cal can with argon infused in it before closing.

With a TIG welder around, argon is easy to come by, isn't it? I use it
to keep my 1 gallon cans of furniture finishes from skinning over.


--
They must find it difficult,
those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as authority.
-- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 06:09:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:



True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

Probably not. But I wouldnt be in very good shape. But on the other
hand..I wouldnt have laid on a gurney for 4 hours waiting for them to
finish up with a couple dozen illegal aliens either..who got their
medical care for free. Entirely free..and have been getting their
families medical care for free as well. Along with welfare, education
etc etc etc.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

Ask the folks who instituted that law. and all the people who have
skated free on their bills. Democrats instituted it..didnt they?

Im still paying the bill and will be doing it for decades. What...you
think I got it for free? Think again. Laugh...Ive got a lien on my
home by San Bernadeno County for $135k. And Ive paid them about $15k
so far.

So I cant sell the place and "reap my profits" ....laugh.... as you
seem to think



As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and? Tell that to the illegal aliens and the people who ****ed up
the economy so my income went right into the ****ter and forced me to
drop my medical insurance 2 months before the heart attack.

It's always someone else's fault?

Well lets turn it around. You say that you were in the Army and
shortly thereafter you were in the Cops, had you stayed in either the
Army or the Cops you would have had free medical care and payday every
week. But you elected to leave so the fault is equally yours :-)

Tell that to the 48 Million unemployed as well who are using that same
law for themselves and their families..because they too dont have
medical insurance.

We aren't talking about 48 million, we are discussing only one
individual.

Or do you think I should have filed bankruptcy and simply walked away
from all my bills? If I was trying to get "something for
free"...tell all the readers why I havent.

Feel free...trot it out. We will all be amused.

I was making no allusions about your moral character. I was saying
that without the laws, probably passed by liberal do gooders, that
emergency cases must be treated they would probably have pushed your
gurney over in the corner and ignored you for a few hours.

Or don't you remember the days when you brought your kid into the
emergency clinic with the broken arm and the nurse was right there in
your face with the clipboard and the forms. "Do you have Medical
Insurance Sir"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:53:38 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 06:09:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:



True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

Probably not. But I wouldnt be in very good shape. But on the other
hand..I wouldnt have laid on a gurney for 4 hours waiting for them to
finish up with a couple dozen illegal aliens either..who got their
medical care for free. Entirely free..and have been getting their
families medical care for free as well. Along with welfare, education
etc etc etc.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

Ask the folks who instituted that law. and all the people who have
skated free on their bills. Democrats instituted it..didnt they?

Im still paying the bill and will be doing it for decades. What...you
think I got it for free? Think again. Laugh...Ive got a lien on my
home by San Bernadeno County for $135k. And Ive paid them about $15k
so far.

So I cant sell the place and "reap my profits" ....laugh.... as you
seem to think



As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and? Tell that to the illegal aliens and the people who ****ed up
the economy so my income went right into the ****ter and forced me to
drop my medical insurance 2 months before the heart attack.

It's always someone else's fault?

Well lets turn it around. You say that you were in the Army and
shortly thereafter you were in the Cops, had you stayed in either the
Army or the Cops you would have had free medical care and payday every
week. But you elected to leave so the fault is equally yours :-)

Tell that to the 48 Million unemployed as well who are using that same
law for themselves and their families..because they too dont have
medical insurance.

We aren't talking about 48 million, we are discussing only one
individual.

Or do you think I should have filed bankruptcy and simply walked away
from all my bills? If I was trying to get "something for
free"...tell all the readers why I havent.

Feel free...trot it out. We will all be amused.

I was making no allusions about your moral character. I was saying
that without the laws, probably passed by liberal do gooders, that
emergency cases must be treated they would probably have pushed your
gurney over in the corner and ignored you for a few hours.

EMTALA, the federal law which requires hospitals to provide emergency
care to patients like Gunner and other indigents, including illegals,
was passed in 1986 by a Republican Senate and a Democratic House, and
signed by that flaming liberal do-gooder, Ronald Reagan.


Or don't you remember the days when you brought your kid into the
emergency clinic with the broken arm and the nurse was right there in
your face with the clipboard and the forms. "Do you have Medical
Insurance Sir"?

They still do.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 05:52:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:26:34 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:59:59 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



That sleeve is what keeps the barrel from exploding in the sub
calibers

Exactly.

And the current ones are 13 ga and 19ga ... there about..so 12ga/20ga
rounds don't fit in them anymore.

Nope, you can still buy 12 ga. flare guns. Amazon sells them
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1001010101
or West Marine
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...w#.UasvTrRH4g0

And one can buy surplus military flare guns from WW2 and WW1. The
average person doesnt know about them, quite frankly

Probably and very likely.


Match heads work well enough for priming

Sort of ridiculous, in America :-)

At this moment...Id agree. In 5 yrs or less?

Who knows. But maybe a couple of flint locks in the back of the gun
cabinet might be a good idea. And **** in a bottle to make the salt
peter and the rest of it is easy.

Or keep 50 lbs of fertilizer on hand. One can make "black powder" from
certain fertilizers


All you need to do...is to incapacitate the better armed
individial..and take his good gun and ammo...and pass your weapon to
the next guy in line and let him harvest his own good gun and ammo,
repeat as necessary......

Old hat these days. Today you get your backers to buy proper weapons.
Trying to shoot a cop so you can steel his gun is dangerous.

Indeed it is. But we are not talking about shooting cops..but Nato
troops for example.

Well, you seemed to be talking about a rebellion and usually it is the
cops that get it in the neck when the lads try to arm themselves.

They tried it a year or so here in Thailand. A bunch of the brothers,
lacking guns, attacked a police post with knives. Killed one Cop. But
unfortunately the other two cops had M-16's and it ended up Bad Guys
1, Cops something like 15.

Knives? What...Thailand has Leftwing morons like we do???

Nope, at least they weren't left wingers. Probably call them Right
Wingers, they want a Moslem Homeland in the three southern most
provinces in Thailand.


Those who forget history...are often forced to repeat it.

The actual quotation is "Those who cannot remember the past are
condemned to repeat it."

No "often" mentioned.

If I had put quotes around it...it would have meant I was quoting ...I
didnt.


An original thought? Well why not.
After all, George Santayana, who I accused you of copying, apparently
stole the idea from Edmund Burke 1729 - 1797, who said "Those who
don't know history are doomed to repeat it".




Gunner
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 16:43:56 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:35:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 10:41:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Well, it's time to pull out those stitches. Wish me luck. Part of
the reason I went to the ER is to quiz the doctor about lido. I have
some 4% cream. He said the liquid lido he uses goes bad fairly quickly
and needs to be refrigerated, so I couldn't bring it home. He also
cautioned me about using it for large areas, such as very long cuts or
burned areas. I hadn't realized it could be toxic, or even fatal, if
used in large doses. He said they use limb blocks for the large cuts,
like sheetmetal (or sword?) wounds. Anyway, my cream is ready for me
if it's needed for five little stitches... g

3 minutes later: I had no problem with the stitches. The Ethilon slid
easily out of the skin in under a minute. No blood, pain, or fuss.
Debriding took a bit longer, removing old skin and scab material, so
it's all ready for work again tomorrow with a fresh bandaid over it.

You have just earned your Survivalist Neophyte First Aid Badge.

Tendjewberrymud.


Next step up is putting in your own stitches (if really needed) and
determining if they are Really Needed.

I still feel they were necessary. I don't mind closing a 1/8" gap on
meat, and have done so several times. But the 3/16" gap on flappy
skin which stretched open every time I closed my hand was too wide to
safely butterfly shut. I have sutures for the future, when needed.
They're also Ethilon, so they have no real expiration date like the
flighty silk suture does. They pull out quite easily, too, I found
out. Me -like- that. g
I cut my middle finger knuckle once, the cut was only about 3/8 long
but it was deep. I pinched the skin and could see the top on the
knuckle and the tendon. So I thought it should be washed out and
stiched. The doc looked at the short cut and wondered aloud why I was
wasting his time. So I showed him the tendon. He said yes, washing out
and stiches was a wise decision.
ERS

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 06:50:11 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 00:04:12 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 16:43:56 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:35:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 10:41:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Well, it's time to pull out those stitches. Wish me luck. Part of
the reason I went to the ER is to quiz the doctor about lido. I have
some 4% cream. He said the liquid lido he uses goes bad fairly quickly
and needs to be refrigerated, so I couldn't bring it home. He also
cautioned me about using it for large areas, such as very long cuts or
burned areas. I hadn't realized it could be toxic, or even fatal, if
used in large doses. He said they use limb blocks for the large cuts,
like sheetmetal (or sword?) wounds. Anyway, my cream is ready for me
if it's needed for five little stitches... g

3 minutes later: I had no problem with the stitches. The Ethilon slid
easily out of the skin in under a minute. No blood, pain, or fuss.
Debriding took a bit longer, removing old skin and scab material, so
it's all ready for work again tomorrow with a fresh bandaid over it.

You have just earned your Survivalist Neophyte First Aid Badge.

Tendjewberrymud.


Next step up is putting in your own stitches (if really needed) and
determining if they are Really Needed.

I still feel they were necessary. I don't mind closing a 1/8" gap on
meat, and have done so several times. But the 3/16" gap on flappy
skin which stretched open every time I closed my hand was too wide to
safely butterfly shut. I have sutures for the future, when needed.
They're also Ethilon, so they have no real expiration date like the
flighty silk suture does. They pull out quite easily, too, I found
out. Me -like- that. g

http://www.face-body.com/topical.htm

Etc etc.

I keep a dozen or so suture kits around the homestead. A couple times
a year one of the critters or the roommates will open themselves up
badly enough for stitches, though I generally will use butterflys on
the roommates before sutures.

Vet supply places are far far cheaper for this sort of thing than are
med outlets

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07554-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&ccd=IFF003&utm_source=google&utm_medi um=cpc&utm_campaign=F%2BCat%2BLivestock%2BEquip%2B And%2BSupp%2B%286000%29%2BPLA&mr:trackingCode=0A4A C464-3C81-E211-BA78-001B21631C34&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad= 15165183283&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=351923 59003&gclid=COjZ4Leox7cCFa9cQgodj2kASQ

Yeah, I found MedVetIntl on eBay and got a dozen 3-0 suture kits for
$11.49, delivered. Wow, $10.78 now: http://tinyurl.com/kdhw97u


Best suture kit available on the net?

Postby Apache » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:13 pm
Depends how often you use the kit and if it's only intended to be used
for suturing or a bit of minor surgery. I would make a kit up myself
with the following:
Needleholder (personal choice)
Rat toothed forceps
Plain (Addison) forceps
Fine straight scissors
suture scissors
No 3 scalpel handle (& 5 No 10 blade, 5 No 11 & 5 No 12)
mosquito artery forceps (3X if for minor Sx)
(2 Spencer Wells forceps, curved & a pair of Mayo scissors if for
minor Sx)

I have a similar kit. $8.79 + $3.28 s/h. http://tinyurl.com/mdro6hj
They're a bit more now, but still _very_ reasonable. I was amused to
find that the tools the ER doctor used were also made in Pakistan. He
let me bring them home, so my kit is now enlarged.


Keep em in a 30 cal can with argon infused in it before closing.

With a TIG welder around, argon is easy to come by, isn't it? I use it
to keep my 1 gallon cans of furniture finishes from skinning over.

ayup. Co2 works fairly well also and is far cheaper, but some
compounds may react with Co2..so I use argon.

Gunner

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:53:38 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 06:09:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:



True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

Probably not. But I wouldnt be in very good shape. But on the other
hand..I wouldnt have laid on a gurney for 4 hours waiting for them to
finish up with a couple dozen illegal aliens either..who got their
medical care for free. Entirely free..and have been getting their
families medical care for free as well. Along with welfare, education
etc etc etc.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

Ask the folks who instituted that law. and all the people who have
skated free on their bills. Democrats instituted it..didnt they?

Im still paying the bill and will be doing it for decades. What...you
think I got it for free? Think again. Laugh...Ive got a lien on my
home by San Bernadeno County for $135k. And Ive paid them about $15k
so far.

So I cant sell the place and "reap my profits" ....laugh.... as you
seem to think



As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and? Tell that to the illegal aliens and the people who ****ed up
the economy so my income went right into the ****ter and forced me to
drop my medical insurance 2 months before the heart attack.

It's always someone else's fault?

Of course. Im a Democrat. Its Bush's fault!

Well lets turn it around. You say that you were in the Army and
shortly thereafter you were in the Cops, had you stayed in either the
Army or the Cops you would have had free medical care and payday every
week. But you elected to leave so the fault is equally yours :-)

Huh?

Tell that to the 48 Million unemployed as well who are using that same
law for themselves and their families..because they too dont have
medical insurance.

We aren't talking about 48 million, we are discussing only one
individual.

Sorry lumpy...it doesnt work that way. Not even a good try on your
part.

Or do you think I should have filed bankruptcy and simply walked away
from all my bills? If I was trying to get "something for
free"...tell all the readers why I havent.

Feel free...trot it out. We will all be amused.

Still waiting.. despite your snipping stuff out.

I was making no allusions about your moral character. I was saying
that without the laws, probably passed by liberal do gooders, that
emergency cases must be treated they would probably have pushed your
gurney over in the corner and ignored you for a few hours.

Actually..thats exactly what they did.

Or don't you remember the days when you brought your kid into the
emergency clinic with the broken arm and the nurse was right there in
your face with the clipboard and the forms. "Do you have Medical
Insurance Sir"?

Something has changed?

It should also be noted that it was $150 for the cast and treatment.
Today its $17,000 for the cast and treatment. Because one has to pay
for all the free medical somehow.


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 21:21:44 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 05:52:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:26:34 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:59:59 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



That sleeve is what keeps the barrel from exploding in the sub
calibers

Exactly.

And the current ones are 13 ga and 19ga ... there about..so 12ga/20ga
rounds don't fit in them anymore.

Nope, you can still buy 12 ga. flare guns. Amazon sells them
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1001010101
or West Marine
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...w#.UasvTrRH4g0

And one can buy surplus military flare guns from WW2 and WW1. The
average person doesnt know about them, quite frankly

Probably and very likely.


Match heads work well enough for priming

Sort of ridiculous, in America :-)

At this moment...Id agree. In 5 yrs or less?

Who knows. But maybe a couple of flint locks in the back of the gun
cabinet might be a good idea. And **** in a bottle to make the salt
peter and the rest of it is easy.

Or keep 50 lbs of fertilizer on hand. One can make "black powder" from
certain fertilizers


All you need to do...is to incapacitate the better armed
individial..and take his good gun and ammo...and pass your weapon to
the next guy in line and let him harvest his own good gun and ammo,
repeat as necessary......

Old hat these days. Today you get your backers to buy proper weapons.
Trying to shoot a cop so you can steel his gun is dangerous.

Indeed it is. But we are not talking about shooting cops..but Nato
troops for example.

Well, you seemed to be talking about a rebellion and usually it is the
cops that get it in the neck when the lads try to arm themselves.

They tried it a year or so here in Thailand. A bunch of the brothers,
lacking guns, attacked a police post with knives. Killed one Cop. But
unfortunately the other two cops had M-16's and it ended up Bad Guys
1, Cops something like 15.

Knives? What...Thailand has Leftwing morons like we do???

Nope, at least they weren't left wingers. Probably call them Right
Wingers, they want a Moslem Homeland in the three southern most
provinces in Thailand.

So irrational people who want and want and use violence to try to get
their own way...are Rightwingers? Sorry lumpy..thats the very
definiton of Leftwinger.


Those who forget history...are often forced to repeat it.

The actual quotation is "Those who cannot remember the past are
condemned to repeat it."

No "often" mentioned.

If I had put quotes around it...it would have meant I was quoting ...I
didnt.


An original thought? Well why not.
After all, George Santayana, who I accused you of copying, apparently
stole the idea from Edmund Burke 1729 - 1797, who said "Those who
don't know history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and?





Gunner

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

Lets have a link that's not google sourced.
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_r...tml?gas=suture

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
..
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ...

3 minutes later: I had no problem with the stitches. The Ethilon slid
easily out of the skin in under a minute. No blood, pain, or fuss.
Debriding took a bit longer, removing old skin and scab material, so
it's all ready for work again tomorrow with a fresh bandaid over it.

You have just earned your Survivalist Neophyte First Aid Badge.

Tendjewberrymud.


Next step up is putting in your own stitches (if really needed) and
determining if they are Really Needed.

I still feel they were necessary. I don't mind closing a 1/8" gap on
meat, and have done so several times. But the 3/16" gap on flappy
skin which stretched open every time I closed my hand was too wide to
safely butterfly shut. I have sutures for the future, when needed.
They're also Ethilon, so they have no real expiration date like the
flighty silk suture does. They pull out quite easily, too, I found
out. Me -like- that. g

http://www.face-body.com/topical.htm

Etc etc.

I keep a dozen or so suture kits around the homestead. A couple times
a year one of the critters or the roommates will open themselves up
badly enough for stitches, though I generally will use butterflys on
the roommates before sutures.

Vet supply places are far far cheaper for this sort of thing than are
med outlets


Yeah, I found MedVetIntl on eBay and got a dozen 3-0 suture kits for
$11.49, delivered. Wow, $10.78 now: http://tinyurl.com/kdhw97u

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 10:19:04 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:53:38 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 06:09:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:



True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

Probably not. But I wouldnt be in very good shape. But on the other
hand..I wouldnt have laid on a gurney for 4 hours waiting for them to
finish up with a couple dozen illegal aliens either..who got their
medical care for free. Entirely free..and have been getting their
families medical care for free as well. Along with welfare, education
etc etc etc.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

Ask the folks who instituted that law. and all the people who have
skated free on their bills. Democrats instituted it..didnt they?

Im still paying the bill and will be doing it for decades. What...you
think I got it for free? Think again. Laugh...Ive got a lien on my
home by San Bernadeno County for $135k. And Ive paid them about $15k
so far.

So I cant sell the place and "reap my profits" ....laugh.... as you
seem to think



As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and? Tell that to the illegal aliens and the people who ****ed up
the economy so my income went right into the ****ter and forced me to
drop my medical insurance 2 months before the heart attack.

It's always someone else's fault?

Well lets turn it around. You say that you were in the Army and
shortly thereafter you were in the Cops, had you stayed in either the
Army or the Cops you would have had free medical care and payday every
week. But you elected to leave so the fault is equally yours :-)

Tell that to the 48 Million unemployed as well who are using that same
law for themselves and their families..because they too dont have
medical insurance.

We aren't talking about 48 million, we are discussing only one
individual.

Or do you think I should have filed bankruptcy and simply walked away
from all my bills? If I was trying to get "something for
free"...tell all the readers why I havent.

Feel free...trot it out. We will all be amused.

I was making no allusions about your moral character. I was saying
that without the laws, probably passed by liberal do gooders, that
emergency cases must be treated they would probably have pushed your
gurney over in the corner and ignored you for a few hours.

EMTALA, the federal law which requires hospitals to provide emergency
care to patients like Gunner and other indigents, including illegals,
was passed in 1986 by a Republican Senate and a Democratic House, and
signed by that flaming liberal do-gooder, Ronald Reagan.


See there, The Demos done it.
(Never mind all those silly details, the Demos done it!)


Or don't you remember the days when you brought your kid into the
emergency clinic with the broken arm and the nurse was right there in
your face with the clipboard and the forms. "Do you have Medical
Insurance Sir"?

They still do.

Well, they must not take any notice of the answers as Gunner doesn't
have any insurance, he says so himself.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 12:05:21 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:53:38 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 06:09:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:



True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

Probably not. But I wouldnt be in very good shape. But on the other
hand..I wouldnt have laid on a gurney for 4 hours waiting for them to
finish up with a couple dozen illegal aliens either..who got their
medical care for free. Entirely free..and have been getting their
families medical care for free as well. Along with welfare, education
etc etc etc.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

Ask the folks who instituted that law. and all the people who have
skated free on their bills. Democrats instituted it..didnt they?

Im still paying the bill and will be doing it for decades. What...you
think I got it for free? Think again. Laugh...Ive got a lien on my
home by San Bernadeno County for $135k. And Ive paid them about $15k
so far.

So I cant sell the place and "reap my profits" ....laugh.... as you
seem to think



As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and? Tell that to the illegal aliens and the people who ****ed up
the economy so my income went right into the ****ter and forced me to
drop my medical insurance 2 months before the heart attack.

It's always someone else's fault?

Of course. Im a Democrat. Its Bush's fault!

Well lets turn it around. You say that you were in the Army and
shortly thereafter you were in the Cops, had you stayed in either the
Army or the Cops you would have had free medical care and payday every
week. But you elected to leave so the fault is equally yours :-)

Huh?

Tell that to the 48 Million unemployed as well who are using that same
law for themselves and their families..because they too dont have
medical insurance.

We aren't talking about 48 million, we are discussing only one
individual.

Sorry lumpy...it doesnt work that way. Not even a good try on your
part.

Or do you think I should have filed bankruptcy and simply walked away
from all my bills? If I was trying to get "something for
free"...tell all the readers why I havent.

Feel free...trot it out. We will all be amused.

Still waiting.. despite your snipping stuff out.

I was making no allusions about your moral character. I was saying
that without the laws, probably passed by liberal do gooders, that
emergency cases must be treated they would probably have pushed your
gurney over in the corner and ignored you for a few hours.

Actually..thats exactly what they did.


I probably wasn't being explicate enough... I should have said,
"they'd have pushed your gurney over in the corner and ignored you for
a few hours.... until the problem went away".

But maybe that is what they tried to do :-)

Or don't you remember the days when you brought your kid into the
emergency clinic with the broken arm and the nurse was right there in
your face with the clipboard and the forms. "Do you have Medical
Insurance Sir"?

Something has changed?

It should also be noted that it was $150 for the cast and treatment.
Today its $17,000 for the cast and treatment. Because one has to pay
for all the free medical somehow.

Jeasus how prices went up. It used to be $2.00 for a visit to the
doctor's office and even then your mother, or grandmother, used to
take care of most things with a liberal dose of iodine; for very
serious cases add an aspirin tablet.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 12:07:05 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 21:21:44 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 05:52:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:26:34 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:59:59 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



That sleeve is what keeps the barrel from exploding in the sub
calibers

Exactly.

And the current ones are 13 ga and 19ga ... there about..so 12ga/20ga
rounds don't fit in them anymore.

Nope, you can still buy 12 ga. flare guns. Amazon sells them
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...cId=1001010101
or West Marine
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...w#.UasvTrRH4g0

And one can buy surplus military flare guns from WW2 and WW1. The
average person doesnt know about them, quite frankly

Probably and very likely.


Match heads work well enough for priming

Sort of ridiculous, in America :-)

At this moment...Id agree. In 5 yrs or less?

Who knows. But maybe a couple of flint locks in the back of the gun
cabinet might be a good idea. And **** in a bottle to make the salt
peter and the rest of it is easy.

Or keep 50 lbs of fertilizer on hand. One can make "black powder" from
certain fertilizers


All you need to do...is to incapacitate the better armed
individial..and take his good gun and ammo...and pass your weapon to
the next guy in line and let him harvest his own good gun and ammo,
repeat as necessary......

Old hat these days. Today you get your backers to buy proper weapons.
Trying to shoot a cop so you can steel his gun is dangerous.

Indeed it is. But we are not talking about shooting cops..but Nato
troops for example.

Well, you seemed to be talking about a rebellion and usually it is the
cops that get it in the neck when the lads try to arm themselves.

They tried it a year or so here in Thailand. A bunch of the brothers,
lacking guns, attacked a police post with knives. Killed one Cop. But
unfortunately the other two cops had M-16's and it ended up Bad Guys
1, Cops something like 15.

Knives? What...Thailand has Leftwing morons like we do???

Nope, at least they weren't left wingers. Probably call them Right
Wingers, they want a Moslem Homeland in the three southern most
provinces in Thailand.

So irrational people who want and want and use violence to try to get
their own way...are Rightwingers? Sorry lumpy..thats the very
definiton of Leftwinger.


I'm not up on modern American political nomenclature but I believe a
group that wants to institute belief in the strict adherence to the
Law as it is written and on a conservative life style would probably
be termed a Right-winger.

As to "using violence to try and get their own way".... why, that
sounds very much like the United States, doesn't it. Remember how they
gained their independence? Remember how they went to war to keep the
Southern States from seceding? Remember how they gained the
Philippines as a colony? And on and on.



Those who forget history...are often forced to repeat it.

The actual quotation is "Those who cannot remember the past are
condemned to repeat it."

No "often" mentioned.

If I had put quotes around it...it would have meant I was quoting ...I
didnt.


An original thought? Well why not.
After all, George Santayana, who I accused you of copying, apparently
stole the idea from Edmund Burke 1729 - 1797, who said "Those who
don't know history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and?





Gunner
--
Cheers,

John B.

Gunner Asch wrote:

Watching the Left scurry around trying to ban this and that is funny
as hell..when folks offer up ways to bypass the Lefts greatest
efforts. The Left are reactive..not thinkers in the slightest...and
they are like cockroaches when the lights are turned on...


Admit it. The far left is afraid of a rolled up newspaper.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 21:14:18 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

3 minutes later: I had no problem with the stitches. The Ethilon slid
easily out of the skin in under a minute. No blood, pain, or fuss.
Debriding took a bit longer, removing old skin and scab material, so
it's all ready for work again tomorrow with a fresh bandaid over it.


Wimp! I use these foam sanding blocks to remove dead skin. If I
don't, it cracks & tears the old wounds open.

http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-10-fine-grade-aluminum-oxide-sanding-sponges-46753.html

Well, DOH! Whaddya think I used? Medium grit works best.


Not if the wound is still healing. The medium are great for dead
skin on your feet, though. Soak in Epsom salts and gently rub the dead
skin to remove what you can. The sand off the rough edges after they
dry.

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 09:18:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:

have any insurance, he says so himself.
--
Cheers,

John B.

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 09:24:42 +0700, John B.
wrote:


But maybe that is what they tried to do :-)

Or don't you remember the days when you brought your kid into the
emergency clinic with the broken arm and the nurse was right there in
your face with the clipboard and the forms. "Do you have Medical
Insurance Sir"?

Something has changed?

It should also be noted that it was $150 for the cast and treatment.
Today its $17,000 for the cast and treatment. Because one has to pay
for all the free medical somehow.

Jeasus how prices went up. It used to be $2.00 for a visit to the
doctor's office and even then your mother, or grandmother, used to
take care of most things with a liberal dose of iodine; for very
serious cases add an aspirin tablet.
--
Cheers,

John B.

True indeed.

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 09:35:45 +0700, John B.
wrote:


So irrational people who want and want and use violence to try to get
their own way...are Rightwingers? Sorry lumpy..thats the very
definiton of Leftwinger.


I'm not up on modern American political nomenclature but I believe a
group that wants to institute belief in the strict adherence to the
Law as it is written and on a conservative life style would probably
be termed a Right-winger.

So Stalin and the National Socialists were Rightwingers? Pol Pot was a
Right Winger along with Mao?

Fascinating!


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 10:45:19 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 16:43:56 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:35:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 10:41:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Well, it's time to pull out those stitches. Wish me luck. Part of
the reason I went to the ER is to quiz the doctor about lido. I have
some 4% cream. He said the liquid lido he uses goes bad fairly quickly
and needs to be refrigerated, so I couldn't bring it home. He also
cautioned me about using it for large areas, such as very long cuts or
burned areas. I hadn't realized it could be toxic, or even fatal, if
used in large doses. He said they use limb blocks for the large cuts,
like sheetmetal (or sword?) wounds. Anyway, my cream is ready for me
if it's needed for five little stitches... g

3 minutes later: I had no problem with the stitches. The Ethilon slid
easily out of the skin in under a minute. No blood, pain, or fuss.
Debriding took a bit longer, removing old skin and scab material, so
it's all ready for work again tomorrow with a fresh bandaid over it.

You have just earned your Survivalist Neophyte First Aid Badge.

Tendjewberrymud.


Next step up is putting in your own stitches (if really needed) and
determining if they are Really Needed.

I still feel they were necessary. I don't mind closing a 1/8" gap on
meat, and have done so several times. But the 3/16" gap on flappy
skin which stretched open every time I closed my hand was too wide to
safely butterfly shut. I have sutures for the future, when needed.
They're also Ethilon, so they have no real expiration date like the
flighty silk suture does. They pull out quite easily, too, I found
out. Me -like- that. g
I cut my middle finger knuckle once, the cut was only about 3/8 long
but it was deep. I pinched the skin and could see the top on the
knuckle and the tendon. So I thought it should be washed out and
stiched. The doc looked at the short cut and wondered aloud why I was
wasting his time. So I showed him the tendon. He said yes, washing out
and stiches was a wise decision.

As did my ER doc. He complimented me on the thorough cleaning I had
given it. DAYUM, that had hurt... What I had thought to be a small
portion (0.015" or so) of a tendon which might have been cut he said
was a string of fat. I was relieved. I didn't think it mattered
either way, and didn't expect him to attempt to repair it, but his
diagnosis relieved me.

The skin itself doesn't hurt, but that thing is sure sensitive to
pressure right now. Zinnnnng!

--
They must find it difficult,
those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as authority.
-- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 23:37:00 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Watching the Left scurry around trying to ban this and that is funny
as hell..when folks offer up ways to bypass the Lefts greatest
efforts. The Left are reactive..not thinkers in the slightest...and
they are like cockroaches when the lights are turned on...


Admit it. The far left is afraid of a rolled up newspaper.


The Left is afraid of the shadow of a rolled up newspaper.

Which is why Im gonna love the Great Cull when it happens. We are
going to have thousands of Leftwingers jumping out of windows in
skyscrapers because its a better way to go (they think) then being
brutally murdered by the People.

Its going to be a marvelous spectacle on TV! Well..at least until
they get done murdering the talking heads and writers in the MSM

G

Gunner

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 21:14:33 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 09:35:45 +0700, John B.
wrote:


So irrational people who want and want and use violence to try to get
their own way...are Rightwingers? Sorry lumpy..thats the very
definiton of Leftwinger.


I'm not up on modern American political nomenclature but I believe a
group that wants to institute belief in the strict adherence to the
Law as it is written and on a conservative life style would probably
be termed a Right-winger.

So Stalin and the National Socialists were Rightwingers? Pol Pot was a
Right Winger along with Mao?

Fascinating!


The usual explanation of Right wing/Left Wing politics is

"In simple terms, the right-wing is in favor of centralizing political
power in the hands of the leaders of government, and the left-wing is
in favor of distributing political power to the people. Politics on
the right is associated with conservatism; politics on the left is
associated with liberalism."

Using that definition I believe that you have to classify Stalin as a
Right Winger, and Mao also. In spite of being communists they both
believed in controlling everything and not allowing the proletariat a
say in the government.

As for Pol Pot, well he was a dictator and he and his cadre certainly
controlled every facet of life in Cambodia so I'd guess he falls in
the same category.

The thing is that you have to look at what is going on, not just the
surface features. I mean, you can wear a dashiki and grow an Afro and
prance around high fiveing folks but when you get down to the 'hood
they aren't going to accept you as a real Brother. :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 23:27:47 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 23:37:00 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

Watching the Left scurry around trying to ban this and that is funny
as hell..when folks offer up ways to bypass the Lefts greatest
efforts. The Left are reactive..not thinkers in the slightest...and
they are like cockroaches when the lights are turned on...


Admit it. The far left is afraid of a rolled up newspaper.


The Left is afraid of the shadow of a rolled up newspaper.

Which is why Im gonna love the Great Cull when it happens. We are
going to have thousands of Leftwingers jumping out of windows in
skyscrapers because its a better way to go (they think) then being
brutally murdered by the People.

W E L L ? tapping foot ever-so-impatiently


Its going to be a marvelous spectacle on TV! Well..at least until
they get done murdering the talking heads and writers in the MSM

Which means I'll have to start watching teevee again, at least for a
little while. Wait'll they taste -actual- reality TV, huh? bseg

"Live from Joisey: A RINO Liberal mental patient who went by the name
of "Ed" was violently..."

--
They must find it difficult,
those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as authority.
-- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 18:33:23 +0700, John B.
wrote:


"In simple terms, the right-wing is in favor of centralizing political
power in the hands of the leaders of government, and the left-wing is
in favor of distributing political power to the people. Politics on
the right is associated with conservatism; politics on the left is
associated with liberalism."

Odd..where the hell did that definition come from? Did you fart it
out of your ass???

Or did you get it from someone in the DNC?

So Johnny..hows that Hopey Changey thingy working out?

Hummmm?


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

The usual explanation of Right wing/Left Wing politics is

"In simple terms, the right-wing is in favor of centralizing political
power in the hands of the leaders of government, and the left-wing is
in favor of distributing political power to the people. Politics on
the right is associated with conservatism; politics on the left is
associated with liberalism."

Using that definition I believe that you have to classify Stalin as a
Right Winger, and Mao also. In spite of being communists they both
believed in controlling everything and not allowing the proletariat a
say in the government.

As for Pol Pot, well he was a dictator and he and his cadre certainly
controlled every facet of life in Cambodia so I'd guess he falls in
the same category.

The thing is that you have to look at what is going on, not just the
surface features. I mean, you can wear a dashiki and grow an Afro and
prance around high fiveing folks but when you get down to the 'hood
they aren't going to accept you as a real Brother. :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

You're using the "classic" definitions which are not so accurate in American
politics. A libertarian is extremely liberal, but in America may be
considered a conservative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic...ge_of_the_term

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 09:18:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 10:19:04 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 20:53:38 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 06:09:56 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 18:50:59 +0700, John B.
wrote:



True indeed. Ive no idea either. However..that being said...the
Left wants Momma Government...and the rest of us want Constitutional
Government. At the moment...there is not a damned thing they can do
that would not result in armed and bloody revolution. In all honesty.

Momma Government? Without a Momma Government Gunner would be under the
dirt right now.

Probably not. But I wouldnt be in very good shape. But on the other
hand..I wouldnt have laid on a gurney for 4 hours waiting for them to
finish up with a couple dozen illegal aliens either..who got their
medical care for free. Entirely free..and have been getting their
families medical care for free as well. Along with welfare, education
etc etc etc.

The public emergency services, the hospital that has to by law treat
this guy whether he can pay for it or not? Sounds like the Old Russia,
doesn't it.

Ask the folks who instituted that law. and all the people who have
skated free on their bills. Democrats instituted it..didnt they?

Im still paying the bill and will be doing it for decades. What...you
think I got it for free? Think again. Laugh...Ive got a lien on my
home by San Bernadeno County for $135k. And Ive paid them about $15k
so far.

So I cant sell the place and "reap my profits" ....laugh.... as you
seem to think



As somebody said, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

Yes and? Tell that to the illegal aliens and the people who ****ed up
the economy so my income went right into the ****ter and forced me to
drop my medical insurance 2 months before the heart attack.

It's always someone else's fault?

Well lets turn it around. You say that you were in the Army and
shortly thereafter you were in the Cops, had you stayed in either the
Army or the Cops you would have had free medical care and payday every
week. But you elected to leave so the fault is equally yours :-)

Tell that to the 48 Million unemployed as well who are using that same
law for themselves and their families..because they too dont have
medical insurance.

We aren't talking about 48 million, we are discussing only one
individual.

Or do you think I should have filed bankruptcy and simply walked away
from all my bills? If I was trying to get "something for
free"...tell all the readers why I havent.

Feel free...trot it out. We will all be amused.

I was making no allusions about your moral character. I was saying
that without the laws, probably passed by liberal do gooders, that
emergency cases must be treated they would probably have pushed your
gurney over in the corner and ignored you for a few hours.

EMTALA, the federal law which requires hospitals to provide emergency
care to patients like Gunner and other indigents, including illegals,
was passed in 1986 by a Republican Senate and a Democratic House, and
signed by that flaming liberal do-gooder, Ronald Reagan.


See there, The Demos done it.
(Never mind all those silly details, the Demos done it!)

g Yes, I think you have the idea.



Or don't you remember the days when you brought your kid into the
emergency clinic with the broken arm and the nurse was right there in
your face with the clipboard and the forms. "Do you have Medical
Insurance Sir"?

They still do.

Well, they must not take any notice of the answers as Gunner doesn't
have any insurance, he says so himself.

They ask. I was puking into a bowl from kidney stones some years ago,
and they waited me out so I could pull my insurance card and sign
their forms.

However, if I said I didn't have insurance, they'd still have to admit
me. They ask and they'll get a grip on whatever you have, but if you
have nothing, they can't refuse you.

As for Gunner's insurance, he's variously said that he can't afford
it, or that he just dropped it a few months before he wound up in the
hospital. Take your choice. It's a multiple-choice fantasy.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 08:54:15 -0700, "Stumpy"
wrote:


The usual explanation of Right wing/Left Wing politics is

"In simple terms, the right-wing is in favor of centralizing political
power in the hands of the leaders of government, and the left-wing is
in favor of distributing political power to the people. Politics on
the right is associated with conservatism; politics on the left is
associated with liberalism."

Using that definition I believe that you have to classify Stalin as a
Right Winger, and Mao also. In spite of being communists they both
believed in controlling everything and not allowing the proletariat a
say in the government.

As for Pol Pot, well he was a dictator and he and his cadre certainly
controlled every facet of life in Cambodia so I'd guess he falls in
the same category.

The thing is that you have to look at what is going on, not just the
surface features. I mean, you can wear a dashiki and grow an Afro and
prance around high fiveing folks but when you get down to the 'hood
they aren't going to accept you as a real Brother. :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

You're using the "classic" definitions which are not so accurate in American
politics. A libertarian is extremely liberal, but in America may be
considered a conservative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic...ge_of_the_term


Well, I figured that you need to start with the basics and once one
gains an understanding of that one could go on to more exotic
descriptions.

--
Cheers,

John B.

You're using the "classic" definitions which are not so accurate in
American
politics. A libertarian is extremely liberal, but in America may be
considered a conservative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic...ge_of_the_term


Well, I figured that you need to start with the basics and once one
gains an understanding of that one could go on to more exotic
descriptions.

--
Cheers,

John B.

I went looking for a curved, 3d Nolan chart that had the extreme right and
left meeting back together, couldn't find one.

Classic Vs Modern:
http://www.goodandbadnews.com/images...#Nolan%20Chart

Diagram is reversed:
http://state.zxq.net/state_and_communism.htm
I didn't read any of the text, just looked at figures.

Hobos Vs. Bums:
http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2010/10/11...rty-acid-test/

On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:42:22 -0700, "Stumpy"
wrote:


You're using the "classic" definitions which are not so accurate in
American
politics. A libertarian is extremely liberal, but in America may be
considered a conservative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic...ge_of_the_term


Well, I figured that you need to start with the basics and once one
gains an understanding of that one could go on to more exotic
descriptions.

--
Cheers,

John B.

I went looking for a curved, 3d Nolan chart that had the extreme right and
left meeting back together, couldn't find one.

Classic Vs Modern:
http://www.goodandbadnews.com/images...#Nolan%20Chart
And that chart is badly flawed as well...they have Greens and
Progressives in the Personal Liberty catagory...and they are HARDLY
believers in personal liberty.


Diagram is reversed:
http://state.zxq.net/state_and_communism.htm
I didn't read any of the text, just looked at figures.

Rather good text

"mportant thing about communism is that it has clearly demonstrated
one alarming and imperative trait related to society and property
relations – an overall possibility of regress in social and economic
evolution – not merely a disintegration and collapse of particular
societies, but a long-term regress of the system of property
relations.

Furthermore, such regress can be brought in forcibly as a result of
planned activities and goal-oriented actions. Russian revolution of
1917 was largely an outcome of the deeds undertaken by a very small
group of people, who ingeniously adapted themselves and their
interests to political realities and societal circumstances. Obviously
there were a lot of other objective and subjective reasons and
preconditions for Russian revolution, but it certainly did not
represent an evolutionary process, i.e. substitution of less efficient
property relations with the more efficient ones.

Even in Marxist’s understanding of social evolution it cannot be
considered as an evolutionary step. There have been certain other
(though except for nazism in Germany not so illustrative) cases of
regress in the system of property and social relations and quite a
majority of them happened in twentieth century, which suppose to be
the century of a triumph of democracy. Furthermore, very often those
cases of societal regress were emerging exactly from within the
representative democracy (including nazi Germany). In their majority
those cases were the products of planned human actions based on some
kind of emotional motivation and on superficial theoretical ideology.

In their majority they were connected with the State oriented
ideologies including socialism, Marxism, Nazism, etc."

Very well stated. So much for that personal freedom thingy the
Lefties keep bragging about (which is an utter lie...as the Kulacks
found out)


Hobos Vs. Bums:
http://pjmedia.com/zombie/2010/10/11...rty-acid-test/



Not bad...not bad at all. The only issue I can see is the
militia/survivalist. They are not a political view point ..but simply
a response.

Gunner

--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 08:07:18 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jun 2013 09:57:33 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

Gunner has a selective view of right and left. He thinks he has a
correct historical view but his "history" is like a game of hop-scotch
or a smorgasbord -- some boiled shrimp here, and one of those little
sausages from there; I'll have another slice of that ham and you can
just put the cherry pie on top....

It's that confused mix of paleo-conservative and libertarian that's
very common among the more severe "conservatives" in the US today, who
adhere to a list of "principles" that have no consistency at all. He's
for states' rights except when he's not. He thinks of himself as a
strict constitutional consructionist, but he has a very liberal view
of the 14th Amendment, especially when it comes to guns. He favors the
Chicago v. McDonald Supreme Court decision, for example; states'
rights be damned. Federal supremacy in general is a mixed bag. His
understanding of the Barron v. Baltimore decision (a strong states'
rights decision) is exactly backwards.

Like many of these quasi- libertarian/paleos, he thinks that the
purpose of the Constitutional Convention was to reduce the scope and
power of the federal government -- again, exactly the opposite of the
historical fact.


I don't know that Gunner is wholly to blame for his rather slanted
view on politics. I have the very distinct memory that I was taught in
grade school such "truths" as: The Americans won the battle of Bunker
Hill and "The Boston Tea Party was a move to destroy expensive tax
paid English tea and that the civil War was fought to free the slaves.

Or "Remember Pearl Harbor", when the sneaky Japs bombed us without a
declaration of war, a dirty,and underhanded act.

Subsequently of course the U.S. sent troops to foreign lands and
started killing people without declaring war in Iraq, Afghanistan,
Vietnam, Grenada, Lebanon, Somalia, Haiti, Panama, Serbia, or Bosnia,
I have no idea of what is taught in U.S. schools today but when I was
a lad they certainly taught a very jingoistic view of history.

Perhaps Gunner read the same history books :-)

Gunner claims an adult lifetime of studying history.

Its a bit late to be catching up with
military history. Ive been a student of it for well over 30 yrs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc....f456d678fa05d2

Gunner, who IS a student of military history and war.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...650e55e6e593cf

Gunner, student of history
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.m...12daff1e449364

Though I AM a student of history
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...be46090d3146f7

Im also a student of not only military history, but
geopolitical history.....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...34eff2cfdde518

Yet here's an example of what all his "studying" led to.

Hitler was a Socialist/Fascist just like US liberals.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...facb0e8c4998f4

That is miles beyond willful ignorance, and no fault of the public
school system.

On 6/6/2013 8:17 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

In which country are you located now, John? If you're not in the US,
this polarization may be hard to read. The normal left/right divide in
this country does not normally lead to so much loose talk about
killing and civil war. This is as nutty as it's ever gotten in modern
times.

Simple left-right scheme can't possibly describe what's happening these
days. As I said earlier, it almost takes a (set of?) three dimensional
vector(s) to do that.
Too many important issues don't map into a single point on a line

Left-right-front-back-up-down...

Even so, that example only covers three issues?

and there are, in reality, dozens (if not hundreds?)


But the association and identity trumps the facts. And the tribal
reaction is vicious. Thus, we have people here -- Gunner, Larry, and
Roger, for just three examples -- who talk loosely about killing
people or threatening and coercing them with guns. That talk and
behavior would have been considered irresponsible, immature, or
evidence of mental instability just a couple of decades ago. But now
they find acceptance for it within their tribe. Political conflict and
polarization have reached a decadent state; it's an example of civil
and social decay, but it is not a serious physical threat.

On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 09:16:30 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 6/6/2013 8:17 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

In which country are you located now, John? If you're not in the US,
this polarization may be hard to read. The normal left/right divide in
this country does not normally lead to so much loose talk about
killing and civil war. This is as nutty as it's ever gotten in modern
times.

Simple left-right scheme can't possibly describe what's happening these
days. As I said earlier, it almost takes a (set of?) three dimensional
vector(s) to do that.
Too many important issues don't map into a single point on a line

Left-right-front-back-up-down...

Even so, that example only covers three issues?

and there are, in reality, dozens (if not hundreds?)

Take a close look at the multiple issues and you'll probably find that
there is only the thinnest of threads connecting them. Issues coalesce
into parties, ideologies, and so on by a variety of routes. Deductive
derivation from a few principles is only one of them, and that route
often, or usually, is an after-the-fact process: some other reason
produces an issue, and then it's woven back into the ideology.

That's true of the right and the left alike in the US -- if I wanted
to start another argument, I could list some examples g -- and it's
true in general of old parties, old ideologies, and of ideologies with
many branches, such as the conservative/rightist group in the US,
which runs from anarcho-capitalism, libertarianism, paleo-conservatism
and "traditional" conservatism, to "law-and-order" and other varieties
of heirarchical authoritarianism.

It can become a lot like a tribal culture; some principles have no
apparent connection to the core ideas, and people on the inside of it
don't even notice. One recent example is the health care insurance
mandate. It began as a conservative idea, to prevent "freeloading";
then was adopted as part of a Democrat-designed universal health care
system; at which time it became re-branded as "tyranny" by the right.
First attached to individual responsibility as a conservative issue,
it became re-branded when it was adopted by the opposition. This is an
example of an issue that exists with no unambiguous connection to core
principles.

Another is the thing happening with the press. Conservatives wanted to
hang Daniel Ellsberg for treason. Now they want Holder to resign for
invading press privacy over an attempt to close a similar kind of
security breach. Flip, flop. And so on.

So that multi-dimensional "map" you mentioned is, in my opinion, more
like a cloud. Issues can move into and out of an ideology. One group
can co-opt an issue from an opposing group. Group identity depends on
accepting most of the positions, myths, and narratives of one's tribe.
It doesn't really matter where they come from.

And so it goes.

Ed Huntress




But the association and identity trumps the facts. And the tribal
reaction is vicious. Thus, we have people here -- Gunner, Larry, and
Roger, for just three examples -- who talk loosely about killing
people or threatening and coercing them with guns. That talk and
behavior would have been considered irresponsible, immature, or
evidence of mental instability just a couple of decades ago. But now
they find acceptance for it within their tribe. Political conflict and
polarization have reached a decadent state; it's an example of civil
and social decay, but it is not a serious physical threat.

On 6/6/2013 11:03 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 09:16:30 -0500,
wrote:

On 6/6/2013 8:17 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

In which country are you located now, John? If you're not in the US,
this polarization may be hard to read. The normal left/right divide in
this country does not normally lead to so much loose talk about
killing and civil war. This is as nutty as it's ever gotten in modern
times.

Simple left-right scheme can't possibly describe what's happening these
days. As I said earlier, it almost takes a (set of?) three dimensional
vector(s) to do that.
Too many important issues don't map into a single point on a line

Left-right-front-back-up-down...

Even so, that example only covers three issues?

and there are, in reality, dozens (if not hundreds?)

Take a close look at the multiple issues and you'll probably find that
there is only the thinnest of threads connecting them. Issues coalesce
into parties, ideologies, and so on by a variety of routes. Deductive
derivation from a few principles is only one of them, and that route
often, or usually, is an after-the-fact process: some other reason
produces an issue, and then it's woven back into the ideology.

That's true of the right and the left alike in the US -- if I wanted
to start another argument, I could list some examplesg -- and it's
true in general of old parties, old ideologies, and of ideologies with
many branches, such as the conservative/rightist group in the US,
which runs from anarcho-capitalism, libertarianism, paleo-conservatism
and "traditional" conservatism, to "law-and-order" and other varieties
of heirarchical authoritarianism.

It can become a lot like a tribal culture; some principles have no
apparent connection to the core ideas, and people on the inside of it
don't even notice. One recent example is the health care insurance
mandate. It began as a conservative idea, to prevent "freeloading";
then was adopted as part of a Democrat-designed universal health care
system; at which time it became re-branded as "tyranny" by the right.
First attached to individual responsibility as a conservative issue,
it became re-branded when it was adopted by the opposition. This is an
example of an issue that exists with no unambiguous connection to core
principles.

Another is the thing happening with the press. Conservatives wanted to
hang Daniel Ellsberg for treason. Now they want Holder to resign for
invading press privacy over an attempt to close a similar kind of
security breach. Flip, flop. And so on.

So that multi-dimensional "map" you mentioned is, in my opinion, more
like a cloud. Issues can move into and out of an ideology. One group
can co-opt an issue from an opposing group. Group identity depends on
accepting most of the positions, myths, and narratives of one's tribe.
It doesn't really matter where they come from.

And so it goes.

Ed Huntress


And in the mean time we are left trying to measure the geometry of
integrated circuits with cubits and furlongs....