We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the better
we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in passing.
I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but in
several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED
(not black as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

Martin
--
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

From what I hear, nobody accepts the blame for such things. The
importers just say that they didn't know. And they seem to get away
with it. ----Like the lead paint issues that come up every now and
then. I always thought "caveat emptor" was Latin, but I guess it's
really Chinese.

I think many of us old farts alive today will see China begin to implode
from its own travesties.

I guess all you have to do is to have a container filled with product
over there and it appears at your door here, for about $5000.

Pete Stanaitis
--------------
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the
better
we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in passing.
I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but in
several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED
(not black as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So
the better we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in
passing. I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small
but in several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED (not black
as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or
export regulation ?
There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW!
They use lead-based paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the better
we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in passing.
I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but in
several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED
(not black as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

Martin

this post makes no sense at all.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:33:45 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the
better we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in
passing. I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but
in several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED (not black as in
silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or
export regulation ?
There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW! They use lead-based
paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon

They have regulations, they just ignore them if it'll make money for the
friends of those in high places (see "Bush Administration").

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

In article , Tim Wescott wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:33:45 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW! They use lead-based
paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon

They have regulations, they just ignore them if it'll make money for the
friends of those in high places (see "Bush Administration").

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:33:45 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW! They use lead-based
paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon

They have regulations, they just ignore them if it'll make money for the
friends of those in high places (see "Bush Administration").


Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the World
Bank.

Bush is, too. The difference is that Bush doesn't have a clue about how the
pieces are supposed to fit together. No Rhodes Scholar he, Bush just follows
the economic programs he's told.

--
Ed Huntress

Come on guys, this isn't a China thing. We make them that way as well and
have for a very long time. The amount of mercury amalgam used is miniscule
and of no hazard to the environment. There is a lot of China bashing going
on right now, but only some of it is justified and this is not one of them.
These products are purchased by us. I don't see any chinamen with guns to
our heads and until we are willing to work for a hundred dollars a week,
this isn't going to change.
Steve

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the
better
we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in passing.
I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but in
several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED
(not black as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

Martin
--
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000
Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and it's "most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Tim Wescott wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:33:45 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW! They use lead-based
paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon
They have regulations, they just ignore them if it'll make money for the
friends of those in high places (see "Bush Administration").

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I really should have left out the political gouge. Oh well.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:22:11 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Come on guys, this isn't a China thing. We make them that way as well and
have for a very long time.

Who's we? I find this hard to believe.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1506387
"Mirrors made of glass backed with a reflective coating of tin amalgam
first came into general use in the sixteenth century. Production
ceased around 1900."

On the other hand, I also find it hard to believe Martin's mirror is
mercury coated. In the absence of more evidence, it seems far more
likely the red is a protective coating rather than cinnabar.

--
Ned Simmons

I could be wrong, but more likely the deposit is a copper layer that
was probably sputtered (PVD?) on. If you deposit some on steel wire
and put it in a torch flame, you should see a green tinge. (Of
course, you need to decide if the risks you perceive warrant the
benefits of satisfying your curiosity.)

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror

Exerpt(s): “….Nowadays, mirrors are often produced by the vacuum
deposition of aluminium (or sometimes silver) directly onto the glass
substrate.… In modern times the mirror substrate is shaped, polished
and cleaned, and is then coated. Glass mirrors are most often coated
with non-toxic silver or aluminium, implemented by a series of
coatings:
tin
silver
chemical activator
copper
paint
The tin is applied because silver will not bond with the glass. The
activator causes the tin/silver to harden. Copper is added for long-
term durability.[13] The paint protects the coating on the back of the
mirror from scratches and other accidental damage….”

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:58:09 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrolled the following:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:33:45 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW! They use lead-based
paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon

They have regulations, they just ignore them if it'll make money for the
friends of those in high places (see "Bush Administration").


Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the World
Bank.

kaff


Bush is, too. The difference is that Bush doesn't have a clue about how the
pieces are supposed to fit together. No Rhodes Scholar he, Bush just follows
the economic programs he's told.

I'd be willing to bet that most of our Presidents have -not- been
Rhodes Scholars and have pretty much just listened to their economic
advisors all along.

Shrub is Shrub; no further comment is necessary.

================================================== ==========
Help Save the Endangered Plumb Bobs From Becoming Extinct!

Joe -

The brick red is a crystal like growing set of harry lines.
I figure a hard protective layer was put one to seal and it cracked
in the hot sun.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:

We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the better
we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in passing.
I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but in
several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED
(not black as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

Mercury-silver amalgam was used for mirrors, but it's an expensive
process, and was replaced first by chemical silvering, and then by
vacuum aluminizing. And amalgam is even today used for dental fillings.
You probably have a few in your mouth. I wouldn't get too excited about
this.

If it's even true. It would take a lot of hydrogen sulfide fumes to
convert the mercury back to cinnabar. The brick red may be protective
paint, to keep a pure silver or aluminum film from corroding. I recall
repairing mirrors like that.

Joe Gwinn


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

I also found another possibility -- red lead oxide (see pg. 4)
http://www.allbusiness.com/nonmetall.../708202-1.html

Most of the mirrors are made in Mexico at the Silver mine.
There was a rather good show on that the other day on Science channel.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Steve Lusardi wrote:
Come on guys, this isn't a China thing. We make them that way as well and
have for a very long time. The amount of mercury amalgam used is miniscule
and of no hazard to the environment. There is a lot of China bashing going
on right now, but only some of it is justified and this is not one of them.
These products are purchased by us. I don't see any chinamen with guns to
our heads and until we are willing to work for a hundred dollars a week,
this isn't going to change.
Steve

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the
better
we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in passing.
I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but in
several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED
(not black as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

Martin
--
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000
Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---




----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Red coating doesn't spread in dendrites.

I have a Minor in Geology. Degree in Physics Degree in Theoretical Math.
The back is covered in a rubber coating - that covers up the other coating.

Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Ned Simmons wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:22:11 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Come on guys, this isn't a China thing. We make them that way as well and
have for a very long time.

Who's we? I find this hard to believe.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1506387
"Mirrors made of glass backed with a reflective coating of tin amalgam
first came into general use in the sixteenth century. Production
ceased around 1900."

On the other hand, I also find it hard to believe Martin's mirror is
mercury coated. In the absence of more evidence, it seems far more
likely the red is a protective coating rather than cinnabar.



----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:58:09 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrolled the following:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:33:45 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW! They use
lead-based
paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon

They have regulations, they just ignore them if it'll make money for the
friends of those in high places (see "Bush Administration").


Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and
so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the World
Bank.

kaff

Whatsamatta, you don't like economic conservatives? d8-)



Bush is, too. The difference is that Bush doesn't have a clue about how
the
pieces are supposed to fit together. No Rhodes Scholar he, Bush just
follows
the economic programs he's told.

I'd be willing to bet that most of our Presidents have -not- been
Rhodes Scholars and have pretty much just listened to their economic
advisors all along.

Yup. But Clinton was not just listening to his advisors. In fact, he often
didn't follow the programs suggested by Robert Reich, even though he valued
Reich's economic expertise.

And it's a good thing Jimmy Carter was a smart guy who knew enough about
economics to recognize that he needed to deep-six the entire Democratic
economic philosophy. When he put Paul Volcker in charge, and Volcker started
squeezing the economy to wring out the inflation, the Dems were screaming
bloody murder. But Volcker was right; Reagan kept him on to finish the job;
and he broke the back of inflation. Any Dem who was as clueless as Bush is
would have kept following his party's doctrine until the country imploded.
In fact, Bush almost did that himself -- and still might.


Shrub is Shrub; no further comment is necessary.

It's such a pleasure to be able to forget about him now. The damage has been
done, and we'll be looking to others to try to undo it. It perks up my whole
day.

--
Ed Huntress

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:17:02 -0500, the infamous "Martin H. Eastburn"
scrolled the following:

Joe -

The brick red is a crystal like growing set of harry lines.
I figure a hard protective layer was put one to seal and it cracked
in the hot sun.

From the Decorative Uses section of the link you provided:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

"The most popularly known use of cinnabar is in Chinese carved
lacquerware, a technique that apparently originated in the Song
Dynasty.[10] The danger of mercury poisoning may be reduced in ancient
lacquerware by entraining the powdered pigment in lacquer,[11] but
could still pose an environmental hazard if the pieces were
accidentally destroyed. In the modern jewelry industry, the toxic
pigment is replaced by a resin-based polymer that approximates the
appearance of pigmented lacquer."


Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

More likely red resin-based polymer.

================================================== ==========
Help Save the Endangered Plumb Bobs From Becoming Extinct!

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:44:30 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrolled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:58:09 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrolled the following:


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Tim Wescott
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:33:45 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

There are **NO** regulations in China. Haven't you been reading the
news? They feed their own kids seriously tainted milk! Antifreeze is
used as a sweetener in toothpaste, permitted by LAW! They use
lead-based
paint on toys sold to the US.

Where have you been?

Jon

They have regulations, they just ignore them if it'll make money for the
friends of those in high places (see "Bush Administration").


Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and
so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the World
Bank.

kaff

Whatsamatta, you don't like economic conservatives? d8-)

You made him sound so...so _human_, Ed. I can't get over it.


Bush is, too. The difference is that Bush doesn't have a clue about how
the
pieces are supposed to fit together. No Rhodes Scholar he, Bush just
follows
the economic programs he's told.

I'd be willing to bet that most of our Presidents have -not- been
Rhodes Scholars and have pretty much just listened to their economic
advisors all along.

Yup. But Clinton was not just listening to his advisors. In fact, he often
didn't follow the programs suggested by Robert Reich, even though he valued
Reich's economic expertise.

He was dat li'l four foot tall effer, wunt he?


And it's a good thing Jimmy Carter was a smart guy who knew enough about
economics to recognize that he needed to deep-six the entire Democratic
economic philosophy. When he put Paul Volcker in charge, and Volcker started
squeezing the economy to wring out the inflation, the Dems were screaming
bloody murder. But Volcker was right; Reagan kept him on to finish the job;
and he broke the back of inflation. Any Dem who was as clueless as Bush is
would have kept following his party's doctrine until the country imploded.
In fact, Bush almost did that himself -- and still might.


Shrub is Shrub; no further comment is necessary.

It's such a pleasure to be able to forget about him now. The damage has been
done, and we'll be looking to others to try to undo it. It perks up my whole
day.

Aw, hell, much of the damage he's done hasn't even filtered fully into
the system yet. Even with the Dems in control, we'll be aching from
his crap for long time to come. If OhDamnit and the evil Dems pick up
the loose strings he left regarding our civil rights, we's in a heap
'o trouble, pard.


Oh a happier note, my copy of _The Way We'll Be: The Zogby Report on
the Transformation of the American Dream_ came today. I'm hoping for
some time on the weekend to open it.

================================================== ==========
Help Save the Endangered Plumb Bobs From Becoming Extinct!

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

snip

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W.
Bush,
who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and
so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the
World
Bank.

kaff

Whatsamatta, you don't like economic conservatives? d8-)

You made him sound so...so _human_, Ed. I can't get over it.


Bush is, too. The difference is that Bush doesn't have a clue about how
the
pieces are supposed to fit together. No Rhodes Scholar he, Bush just
follows
the economic programs he's told.

I'd be willing to bet that most of our Presidents have -not- been
Rhodes Scholars and have pretty much just listened to their economic
advisors all along.

Yup. But Clinton was not just listening to his advisors. In fact, he often
didn't follow the programs suggested by Robert Reich, even though he
valued
Reich's economic expertise.

He was dat li'l four foot tall effer, wunt he?

Jeez, he's 4'10". Don't make it tougher than it is on the little guy. If
Obama wins, he'll be baaaack.... I doubt if he'd have a functional role,
however. He'd probably be a member of the Council of Economic Advisors, or
something like that.

BTW, he wrote a book titled _I'll Be Short: Essentials for a Decent Working
Society_. He does have a sense of humor about his height.


And it's a good thing Jimmy Carter was a smart guy who knew enough about
economics to recognize that he needed to deep-six the entire Democratic
economic philosophy. When he put Paul Volcker in charge, and Volcker
started
squeezing the economy to wring out the inflation, the Dems were screaming
bloody murder. But Volcker was right; Reagan kept him on to finish the
job;
and he broke the back of inflation. Any Dem who was as clueless as Bush is
would have kept following his party's doctrine until the country imploded.
In fact, Bush almost did that himself -- and still might.


Shrub is Shrub; no further comment is necessary.

It's such a pleasure to be able to forget about him now. The damage has
been
done, and we'll be looking to others to try to undo it. It perks up my
whole
day.

Aw, hell, much of the damage he's done hasn't even filtered fully into
the system yet. Even with the Dems in control, we'll be aching from
his crap for long time to come. If OhDamnit and the evil Dems pick up
the loose strings he left regarding our civil rights, we's in a heap
'o trouble, pard.

No matter which one is elected, I expect that my mood will improve along
with that of the rest of the country. I don't blame Bush for the financial
meltdown and I don't think either Obama or McCain can do anything to speed a
recovery; they'll both support re-regulating the industry, and their
economic programs, at least as they're proposing them, will take a long time
to have any effect. Any recession that's on the way now is coming anyway.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip-----

No Rhodes Scholar he,

That may well be the wisest thing you've said, Ed, and you've said one hell
of a lot of wise things.

Harold

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:06:39 -0400, the infamous "Ed Huntress"
scrolled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

snip

He was dat li'l four foot tall effer, wunt he?

Jeez, he's 4'10". Don't make it tougher than it is on the little guy. If
Obama wins, he'll be baaaack.... I doubt if he'd have a functional role,
however. He'd probably be a member of the Council of Economic Advisors, or
something like that.

BTW, he wrote a book titled _I'll Be Short: Essentials for a Decent Working
Society_. He does have a sense of humor about his height.

He'd almost have to, wot?


Aw, hell, much of the damage he's done hasn't even filtered fully into
the system yet. Even with the Dems in control, we'll be aching from
his crap for long time to come. If OhDamnit and the evil Dems pick up
the loose strings he left regarding our civil rights, we's in a heap
'o trouble, pard.

No matter which one is elected, I expect that my mood will improve along
with that of the rest of the country. I don't blame Bush for the financial
meltdown and I don't think either Obama or McCain can do anything to speed a
recovery; they'll both support re-regulating the industry, and their
economic programs, at least as they're proposing them, will take a long time
to have any effect. Any recession that's on the way now is coming anyway.

You're probably right in all the above.

--
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:01:15 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the World
Bank.

kaff


Clinton had to be forced into welfare reform...3 times actually before
his handlers told him he had to sign. Balanced budge? ROFLMAO...not
even according to the CBO

In article fbeaufortcounty, Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to Slick
Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC) to
remain in effect.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:40:23 -0700, the infamous Gunner
scrolled the following:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:01:15 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the World
Bank.

kaff

Clinton had to be forced into welfare reform...3 times actually before
his handlers told him he had to sign.

I wouldn't doubt it. I only followed his reign with contempt from
afar, as I have Shrub's. And I still can't believe that you people
(over half the voters each time) voted either one in for a freakin'
_second_ term. I just don't believe it, sixteen years later.


Balanced budge? ROFLMAO...not even according to the CBO

Try to tell your Shrub, the man who single-handedly doubled the
National Debt, about balanced anything...

--
To know what you prefer instead of humbly saying Amen
to what the world tells you you ought to prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:01:15 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Which is why genuine economists consider Clinton to be an economic
conservative. He bought almost the whole program: "free" trade,
deregulation, limited welfare, balanced budgets, inflation-fighting, and
so
on. He was a Washington Consensus guy, from NAFTA to the IMF and the
World
Bank.

kaff


Clinton had to be forced into welfare reform...3 times actually before
his handlers told him he had to sign.

His "handlers" had nothing to do with it. He struck a deal with Newt. What
Clinton had to do was to get the Dems in Congress to support it, which he
did.

Why do you suppose he did that? He had plenty of Dem support in Congress to
block it, if that's what he wanted to do. If he had vetoed it, it would have
died in childbirth.

Balanced budge? ROFLMAO...not
even according to the CBO

sigh I have a book here that I'm thinking of titling _What I Know About
Economics_, by Gunner. It's one of those blank-page diary books.

--
Ed Huntress

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
news

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip-----

No Rhodes Scholar he,

That may well be the wisest thing you've said, Ed, and you've said one
hell of a lot of wise things.

Harold

Well, thank you, Harold.

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article fbeaufortcounty, Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to Slick
Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC) to
remain in effect.


What precisely, is wrong with having good trade relations with the nation that
is going to be the world's largest economy in a few years time?

Mark Rand
RTFM

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article fbeaufortcounty, Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who
ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Sure, to woo the Chinese further away from the Soviet orbit. And very
successful he was too. A bold strategic move.

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to Slick
Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC) to
remain in effect.

Which ****ed off American businessmen no end because they couldn't
tell if their suppliers and investments in factories would be
competitive from one year to the next, and the annual process was
always being held hostage by special interests (such as US unions
under the guise of promoting 'human rights'). Clinton fixed it, as
his corporate bosses wanted, and nobody afterward is likely to want to
change things. ;-)
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

In article , Mark Rand wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article fbeaufortcounty,
Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who

ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and
it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to Slick
Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC) to
remain in effect.


What precisely, is wrong with having good trade relations with the nation that
is going to be the world's largest economy in a few years time?

Some of us have a problem with doing business with a country that:
- has ICBMs with nuclear warheads, targeted on American cities
- imprisons people for practicing the religion of their choice
- rigidly controls its population growth by forced abortion and infanticide
- sells products which are produced by prison (i.e. slave) labor
- pollutes the environment on a scale never before seen anywhere in the world
- forces workers to labor in absymally unsafe working conditions for
negligible pay
- doesn't allow its subjects to live where they choose

Maybe these things don't bother you. IMO they should.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:32:42 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article fbeaufortcounty,
Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush, who

ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and
it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to Slick
Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC) to
remain in effect.


What precisely, is wrong with having good trade relations with the nation that
is going to be the world's largest economy in a few years time?

Some of us have a problem with doing business with a country that:
- has ICBMs with nuclear warheads, targeted on American cities
- imprisons people for practicing the religion of their choice
- rigidly controls its population growth by forced abortion and infanticide
- sells products which are produced by prison (i.e. slave) labor
- pollutes the environment on a scale never before seen anywhere in the world
- forces workers to labor in absymally unsafe working conditions for
negligible pay
- doesn't allow its subjects to live where they choose

Maybe these things don't bother you. IMO they should.


Pot? Kettle?


Mark Rand
RTFM

Give me a break. There is no proper or wanted need to have this there.
There isn't supposed to be there. It is a mirror. Silvery color to look into.

The resin-based polymer is a surface treatment to give a red color that was
once Cinnabar. Now paint.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:17:02 -0500, the infamous "Martin H. Eastburn"
scrolled the following:

Joe -

The brick red is a crystal like growing set of harry lines.
I figure a hard protective layer was put one to seal and it cracked
in the hot sun.

From the Decorative Uses section of the link you provided:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

"The most popularly known use of cinnabar is in Chinese carved
lacquerware, a technique that apparently originated in the Song
Dynasty.[10] The danger of mercury poisoning may be reduced in ancient
lacquerware by entraining the powdered pigment in lacquer,[11] but
could still pose an environmental hazard if the pieces were
accidentally destroyed. In the modern jewelry industry, the toxic
pigment is replaced by a resin-based polymer that approximates the
appearance of pigmented lacquer."

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

More likely red resin-based polymer.

================================================== ==========
Help Save the Endangered Plumb Bobs From Becoming Extinct!


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:35:13 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Clinton had to be forced into welfare reform...3 times actually before
his handlers told him he had to sign.

I wouldn't doubt it. I only followed his reign with contempt from
afar, as I have Shrub's. And I still can't believe that you people
(over half the voters each time) voted either one in for a freakin'
_second_ term. I just don't believe it, sixteen years later.


Balanced budge? ROFLMAO...not even according to the CBO

Try to tell your Shrub, the man who single-handedly doubled the
National Debt, about balanced anything...

Care to tell us about other presidents who have doubled the National
Debt?

Hint..they are all war presidents

In article , Mark Rand wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:32:42 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
fbeaufortcounty,
Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who

ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and
it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to Slick

Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC)
to
remain in effect.


What precisely, is wrong with having good trade relations with the nation
that
is going to be the world's largest economy in a few years time?

Some of us have a problem with doing business with a country that:
- has ICBMs with nuclear warheads, targeted on American cities
- imprisons people for practicing the religion of their choice
- rigidly controls its population growth by forced abortion and infanticide
- sells products which are produced by prison (i.e. slave) labor
- pollutes the environment on a scale never before seen anywhere in the world
- forces workers to labor in absymally unsafe working conditions for
negligible pay
- doesn't allow its subjects to live where they choose

Maybe these things don't bother you. IMO they should.


Pot? Kettle?

What is that supposed to mean?

On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:45:20 -0500, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

We have been cleaning up after yet another Hurricane and my wife was
putting back outside a mirror (designer type in frame) outside. So the better
we might look around a corner...

The mirror had a mark in the metal area - and it was mentioned in passing.
I figured the typical blackened mirror from a scratch...

Wrong! - The break in the rear surface (protection layer) was small but in
several areas. A long complex fuzzy deep brick RED
(not black as in silver oxide) upon examination, I discovered it to be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

Mercury! How can that be. Is there not an import regulation ? or export
regulation ?

A hasmat item.

Martin
--
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
From long ago:

Little Willy from his mirror
licked the mercury right off,
thinking in his childish error
it would cure the whooping cough.
At the funeral Willy's mother
smartly said to Mrs Brown,
''Twas a chilly day for Willy
when the mercury went down!'

ERS

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:42:27 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:32:42 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
fbeaufortcounty,
Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who

ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China and
it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to Slick

Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC)
to
remain in effect.


What precisely, is wrong with having good trade relations with the nation
that
is going to be the world's largest economy in a few years time?

Some of us have a problem with doing business with a country that:
- has ICBMs with nuclear warheads, targeted on American cities
- imprisons people for practicing the religion of their choice
- rigidly controls its population growth by forced abortion and infanticide
- sells products which are produced by prison (i.e. slave) labor
- pollutes the environment on a scale never before seen anywhere in the world
- forces workers to labor in absymally unsafe working conditions for
negligible pay
- doesn't allow its subjects to live where they choose

Maybe these things don't bother you. IMO they should.


Pot? Kettle?

What is that supposed to mean?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_cal...e_kettle_black



Mark Rand
RTFM

In article , Mark Rand wrote:
On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:42:27 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:32:42 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
fbeaufortcounty,
Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who

ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I
hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China
and
it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to
Slick

Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC)
to
remain in effect.


What precisely, is wrong with having good trade relations with the nation
that
is going to be the world's largest economy in a few years time?

Some of us have a problem with doing business with a country that:
- has ICBMs with nuclear warheads, targeted on American cities
- imprisons people for practicing the religion of their choice
- rigidly controls its population growth by forced abortion and infanticide
- sells products which are produced by prison (i.e. slave) labor
- pollutes the environment on a scale never before seen anywhere in the
world
- forces workers to labor in absymally unsafe working conditions for
negligible pay
- doesn't allow its subjects to live where they choose

Maybe these things don't bother you. IMO they should.


Pot? Kettle?

What is that supposed to mean?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_cal...e_kettle_black

I understand perfectly well what the phrase means. I was asking what meaning
you thought it had *in this context* -- since I do not engage in any of the
conduct of which I was complaining.

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:37:50 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand wrote:
On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:42:27 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:32:42 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , Mark Rand
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:09:33 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
fbeaufortcounty,
Al Patrick wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Conveniently ignoring the fact that it was Bill Clinton, not G.W. Bush,
who

ensured that China was awarded "most favored nation" trading status...

I'm conservative, capitalist, right-wing and probably on your side. I
hate
many things
that Billy Boy and Hillary did . . . BUT The first time I recall China
and
it's
"most
favored nation" status was under ol' Tricky Dicky!

Excuse me, I misspoke; should have read "*permanent* status". Prior to
Slick

Willie, China's MFN status had to be renewed periodically (annually, IIRC)
to
remain in effect.


What precisely, is wrong with having good trade relations with the nation
that
is going to be the world's largest economy in a few years time?

Some of us have a problem with doing business with a country that:
- has ICBMs with nuclear warheads, targeted on American cities
- imprisons people for practicing the religion of their choice
- rigidly controls its population growth by forced abortion and infanticide
- sells products which are produced by prison (i.e. slave) labor
- pollutes the environment on a scale never before seen anywhere in the
world
- forces workers to labor in absymally unsafe working conditions for
negligible pay
- doesn't allow its subjects to live where they choose

Maybe these things don't bother you. IMO they should.


Pot? Kettle?

What is that supposed to mean?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_cal...e_kettle_black

I understand perfectly well what the phrase means. I was asking what meaning
you thought it had *in this context* -- since I do not engage in any of the
conduct of which I was complaining.


Ok:-

"Some of us have a problem with doing business with a country that:
has ICBMs with nuclear warheads, targeted on American cities"

Where are all the US ICBMs targeted? The Moon?

"imprisons people for practicing the religion of their choice"

Camp X-ray comes pretty damn close to that.

"rigidly controls its population growth by forced abortion and infanticide"

A result of breaking the one child per family law. They _need_ to contain
population. Pity more countries don't do the same.

"sells products which are produced by prison (i.e. slave) labour"

Does the term "chain gang" have any meaning to you?

"pollutes the environment on a scale never before seen anywhere in the world"

China passed the US for CO2 in 2006. Given that It has more than four times
the population, it's got a long way to go to meet the US's levels per capita.

"forces workers to labor in absymally unsafe working conditions for negligible pay"

Workers come from the countryside to the cities for work due to the relatively
high pay. Just because they aren't making $20/hour doesn't mean that they are
low paid in their economy. Working conditions are comparable to those
experienced in the west in the 60's and 70's. before we got infected by
lawyers.

"doesn't allow its subjects to live where they choose"

Has the US given the aboriginal American's land back yet?



In other words. Almost all of your complaints about China can be duplicated in
the US's current or recent record.

As I said:- Pot? Kettle?

Face it. In a very short time, China will be the world's largest economy. It's
been providing a large part of the Western consumer boom for the last two
decades and has the same relation to the US that the US had with Britain in
the 19th century. That's the way things happen.


Mark Rand
RTFM