Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a
girlfriend with 4 kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one
of the girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and
piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three layers of
stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed
without them killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady
being a really special lady and REAL easy to look at I
wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes, works on her own
van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists with
projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as
simple as taking their shoes off in the house and put them
on to visit me in the garage. (Yep, already had one cut a
foot on some metal scraps, due to bare feet.Still have to
yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes into the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem
to have in this group? I never had more than some burned
fingers (my fault) and got a small scald from a bad radiator
cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure didn't need any trips
to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the
garage, but you just know they'll find their way in when I'm
not there and truly get hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

One time I was sharpening a carpet knife when the wheel caught it and flung it
right at my eyes. I was wearing a face shield which took the wicked curved blade
and kept it from my eyes - barely. It destroyed the face shield. I hung that on
the wall right by the light switch at the door and showed it to my kids a bunch
of times. They got the idea.

Many small 110V appliances have regular plugs. I bought a bunch of cheap luggage
padlocks (tiny) off ebay, drilled out one lug on each plug and clicked a padlock
into it. Kept little fingers from e.g. starting up the bench grinder. Point well
taken.

I got each of my kids their own work gloves and safety glasses. They loved 'em
and got the idea.

I kept teaching safety. They got yelled at for coming in the shop without safety
glasses.

My kids still love my shop. Here's a real recent shot of me with my daughter at
a gas welding class.

http://tinyisland.com/images/temp/Gr...GasWelding.jpg

Be patient, and love 'em even when you're yelling at 'em. Treat them with
respect and teach them with kindness. Don't bore them or lecture them, and make
them little things they can put in their room. It won't happen overnight.

P.S. My daughter is taking a minor in art metal in college now.

GWE

Bart D. Hull wrote:

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the
girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with
the foot peg. Three layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed without them
killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady being a really special
lady and REAL easy to look at I wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes,
works on her own van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists
with projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as simple as
taking their shoes off in the house and put them on to visit me in the
garage. (Yep, already had one cut a foot on some metal scraps, due to
bare feet.Still have to yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes
into the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem to have in
this group? I never had more than some burned fingers (my fault) and got
a small scald from a bad radiator cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure
didn't need any trips to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but
you just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly get
hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart

Bart D. Hull writes:

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed
without them killing themselves.

One principle is "never interrupt me when a machine is running; wait till
it is off".

Having a kid sneak into the shop and go "DAD!" behind my back when I am
concentrating on a noisy, spinning machine is the biggest hazard I face.

"Bart D. Hull" wrote in message
...

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage environment.
(Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the girls tipping a
motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three
layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed without them
killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady being a really special lady
and REAL easy to look at I wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes, works
on her own van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists with
projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as simple as
taking their shoes off in the house and put them on to visit me in the
garage. (Yep, already had one cut a foot on some metal scraps, due to bare
feet.Still have to yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes into
the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem to have in
this group? I never had more than some burned fingers (my fault) and got a
small scald from a bad radiator cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure
didn't need any trips to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but you
just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly get hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart

Mine were never allowed "in the shop" when work was going on. And when they
were allowed in, they were escorted. I have always had garage and home
shops, and owned a business shop for quite a few years. None of mine really
had an interest in all the noisy smelly sparky fiery things that went on and
pretty much stayed away.

Yours might be different, but at that age cannot be expected to know what to
do or not do. Just like they are situationally unaware of the hazards of
being on a busy street. I think you are expecting too much from them. And
if they don't wear shoes, just escort them out and tell them they're banned
for the rest of the day, or a couple of days. And if they just don't mind
you, you might want to ask yourself how it is going to be to have four of
them around when they are teen agers ..........

Steve

Steve B wrote:
"Bart D. Hull" wrote in message
...

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage environment.
(Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the girls tipping a
motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three
layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

The 4 year old is 4 years old - he will learn, given time and tuition.
Whats more of a worry is the others - by now, they should have learnt
some basic sense when around machinery - isnt their Mum a rider, works
on stuff herself etc - if they havent, then something , for some
reason, has gone haywire with their parenting. Whats their attitudes
like to other things - the normal, everyday courtesies you could
expect from a human being, even a young, immature one. Be careful what
you are getting into.

Andrew VK3BFA. (and yes, I am cynical - seen too many feral
children....)

Welcome to the New Age. Only time and experience will teach these kids
anything. The survivors will have a chance to become Real Human Beans.
Bugs

Your only option is to make sure they are welcome when you are there,
they MUST follow your rules (eg: safety glasses and shoes), and NOT
welcome when you are not there. You will need to run in half speed mode
when they are there in order to supervise them. Goes with the territory.

Bart D. Hull wrote:

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the
girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with
the foot peg. Three layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed without them
killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady being a really special
lady and REAL easy to look at I wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes,
works on her own van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists
with projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as simple as
taking their shoes off in the house and put them on to visit me in the
garage. (Yep, already had one cut a foot on some metal scraps, due to
bare feet.Still have to yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes
into the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem to have in
this group? I never had more than some burned fingers (my fault) and got
a small scald from a bad radiator cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure
didn't need any trips to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but
you just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly get
hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart

RoyJ wrote:
Your only option is to make sure they are welcome when you are there,
they MUST follow your rules (eg: safety glasses and shoes), and NOT
welcome when you are not there. You will need to run in half speed mode
when they are there in order to supervise them. Goes with the territory.



I made them welcome at all times, whether I was there or not. The
power tools were unplugged after use and the plugs are high on the
wall. Neither of the boys ever showed any interest in using the power
tools when I wasn't there, until they were old enough and experienced
enough to do so. A lockable switch panel for all the wall/machine
outlets might be good insurance, though.

I used to worry about the exposed motors and belts on the table saw,
band saw, planer and metal shaper, but not enough, I guess, to guard
them as they really should have been. Kept pretty alert when using
those with the kids around, though, and always warned them about the
dangers each time.

They always wore shoes, and goggles when any power stuff was run.

I've still got memories of my older boy (26 now) sitting on the bed of
the wood lathe, "driving" the tailstock handwheel while I was turning.
Kept the lock on, of course, so he couldn't loosen it and let the blank
fly out and hit me in the face. Which probably would have been a great
safety lesson, but one that I was not willing to demonstrate.

Let them use the hand tools. You - and they - will be surprised at how
quickly they will pick up some skills. Praise them, but don't be
afraid to point out areas where they could do better - as long as you
also share your own mistakes with them. They will cut themselves, and
they will bang their fingers, but they'll do the same in the back yard
or athletic fields.

John Martin

My sons are grown, but I worry about my cat. She can't turn on the tools by
herself, but she CAN lurk in unexpected places.

BYW, if you see gibberish in any of my posts, the cat did it.

In article , Bart D. Hull says...

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a
girlfriend with 4 kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one
of the girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and
piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three layers of
stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

First rule: vehicles are not toys, and nobody is allowed to play
in, on, or around them. This prevents the tip-over scene.

Four is pretty young to be in the shop, but escorted 100% of the
time. Basically for an inspection tour, do NOT expect to do any
work while he's there.

My daughter (nearly 17) knows that she can help herself to
anything in the toolboxes in the shop, as long as it's used
safely and comes back to where it belongs (not randomly
located...) when she's done.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Four is pretty young to be in the shop, but escorted 100% of the
time. Basically for an inspection tour, do NOT expect to do any
work while he's there.

I'll disagree with that. My oldest isnt' even two yet and he comes out
to the shop with me all of the time. I do restrict myself to
operations that I can do and monitor him as necessary.

He is surpisingly well behaved while out there and understands when I
tell him to not touch or do certain things. I can tell him to get
stuff and put it back and he can do it if kept in simple enough terms.
I don't expect him to get the 9/16" 3/8 drive deepwell, but if I say
get me the screwdriver right there he can hand to me. If I tell him to
put this in the bottom drawer of the tool box, he will.

He has learned to listen when Dad say's "Dont' touch that". I dont'
yell, but make a firm statement. He will look at me, I usually repeat
the statement, and he just gets this understanding look on his face.

I don't weld while he is around. I don't think he is old enough to
understand to not look at the light.

Of course he has been going out to the shop since before he could walk.

Most times he just "works" at his bench and stays out of the way. He
has a little Playschool bench and the accessory set of hand tools. He
is usually quite content to stay over there and put in his bolts or
screws or bang on things with his little hammer.

Bart D. Hull wrote:

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the
girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with
the foot peg. Three layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

SNIP

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but
you just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly get
hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart



Every kid is different. We have six, form 4 to 21. Some love to hang
around in my shop, some are less interested. Some can be told not to
touch something and won't, some need a bit (OK alot..) more direction
and cannot be counted upon to be 100% in line, 100% of the time. I don't
let little ones run power stuff, of course, but they all had some level
of interest at various times. When I am working on something of theirs,
they will be fascinated. When I am doing my own projects, they are less
so. Lay out the shop rules, and stick to them. Make sure that YOU follow
them too!
(Yeah, my kids have caught me on that one...)

If I am trying to "accomplish" something, I tell the kids to go do
something else. that is one of the rules. When I am messing around and
one of them wants to come out and hang around, I try my best to do stuff
with them out there. It is some of the most enjoyable time I spend with
my kids, and stuff they no doubt will remember and value.

My kids are growing up around this stuff, apparently your girlfriends
kids have not. I've never been in that situation, so i can't speak with
any authority on that part. Mostly, I would guess kids are kids, all
different, but all of them need attention, direction and assistance from
the adults in their lives. Being in a position to provide that is both a
huge responsability a huge privelage. Do it well, and it will repay you
well. Not trying to sound preachey.

Have I done this all well? i don't fully know. So far, our adult and
older teens are decent, respectful hardworking kids. But in the big
picture, the jury is still out.I'll let you know how I did when our 4
year old is an adult.

Who knows, you may be one of the influences that helps to keep those
four kids from becomming what another poster referred to as "feral"
children. (thanks, Andrew,that is a great description! gonna use that
one myself!)

Besst of luck to you!

Al A.

Bart D. Hull wrote:

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the
girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with
the foot peg. Three layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

don't touch any shiny parts of the motorcycle. they are hot.
anytime you want on come ask me.

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed without them
killing themselves.

how did we get to here without killing ourselves? i dunno about the
rest of you but i have done some pretty stupid stuff.

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as simple as
taking their shoes off in the house and put them on to visit me in the
garage. (Yep, already had one cut a foot on some metal scraps, due to
bare feet.Still have to yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes
into the shop.)

well thats a good way to learn. not deadly or permanant.

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem to have in
this group? I never had more than some burned fingers (my fault) and got
a small scald from a bad radiator cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure
didn't need any trips to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but
you just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly get
hurt.

wellllllll. my 6 year old has her own safety glasses, chair,
and is allowed down when ever she wants (ask first). and we will
do things like cut open a master lock/make a golf tee for grandpa/
paint the new shelf......always with me there watching and giving
advice (not all of it safety). i make sure i involve her in the
whole project including the saftey.

probably her favorite was the time she ran the log splitter (i was
very carefull of my hands and very explicit on when she could start it).




laz

If you're concerned for they're safety, make sure you tell them that. When
an adult yells at a kid, the kid usually thinks the adult doesn't like the
kid.
It's the old, hate the sin, not the sinner. Tell the kids it's their
behavior that you don't like, not them. Kids are kids, they learn faster
when they make mistakes.

Good luck, it's not easy going from no kids to 4 just like that.

"Bart D. Hull" wrote in message
...

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage environment.
(Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the girls tipping a
motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three
layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed without them
killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady being a really special lady
and REAL easy to look at I wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes, works
on her own van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists with
projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as simple as
taking their shoes off in the house and put them on to visit me in the
garage. (Yep, already had one cut a foot on some metal scraps, due to bare
feet.Still have to yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes into
the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem to have in
this group? I never had more than some burned fingers (my fault) and got a
small scald from a bad radiator cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure
didn't need any trips to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but you
just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly get hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

Bart D. Hull wrote:

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the
girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with
the foot peg. Three layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

I think you are going to have to watch that one. She may be "accident
prone". There are people like that, a kind of failure to think about
consequences. My oldest boy seems like the rowdiest wild man you'd
ever find, but he MUST have that thinking about "what happens if I
push here" or he'd be dead by now. What I'm saying is if I saw
something really heavy, balanced on three little points pretty
close together, I would NEVER lean on the thing! And, maybe
an experienced rider would never even THINK something like this
could happen, so you wouldn't think to warn them of the hazard.
In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed without them
killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady being a really special
lady and REAL easy to look at I wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes,
works on her own van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists
with projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

Women like this are SUCH a rare find, you'll have to adapt.
We've just been lucky, here, that there haven't been any such
catastrophes befalling people. EVERYONE in our house has gotten
a metal chip in their foot at one time or another. I am pretty
good at digging them out with an Xacto knife, but sometimes, I
just don't have the "guts" to cut into my own child's flesh with
what is essentially a surgeon's scalpel, and somebody has to go to
the doctor or ER to have it dug out.

We have also gotten a couple of more serious cuts, and not all foreign
object in the foot cases have been metal chips - glass, etc. from the
kitchen, too.

So, maybe, because **I"M** the type that always thinks about this
sort of stuff, I really haven't had to warn the kids about a whole
lot of dangers, they they just seem to have avoided the most serious
stuff, somehow, as if by magic.
It is even difficult to get them to understand something as simple as
taking their shoes off in the house and put them on to visit me in the
garage. (Yep, already had one cut a foot on some metal scraps, due to
bare feet.Still have to yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes
into the shop.)

My WIFE knows this one real well, and NEVER comes more than 6"
into the shop with bare feet. The kids are still learning.
How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem to have in
this group? I never had more than some burned fingers (my fault) and got
a small scald from a bad radiator cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure
didn't need any trips to the ER before I learned.
When I think of all the hazards I have around here (poisons, torches,
power tools, sharp hand tools, stuff that can fall over, etc.) it seems
a miracle there hasn't been worse. On the other hand, the accident
you just went through is both a wake-up call and probably the worst
that you WILL have to go through (I hope!)

Jon

Interesting reading all of this.

I know - we were different kids when we grew up - I'm concerned we coddle to much.

When I was 4, I had a 1/4" hand drill (electric), a small drill press, hand saw 2/3 size
(dad still has that one - he likes the shorter saw for some things!) (He won't let it go).
A vice - gave that to my son - mounted it on his bench. Hammers, screwdrivers - many of
these I have now. The prize (to me) was the keyhole blade that the plummer threw away.
It was bent on the nose.

I copied the handle of my dads and squeezed the blade almost straight - then Dad finished.
I have the saw and it has been sharpened and set several times. It is a fine tool steel.

What I have seen is not only caution, but keeping out. I say bring them in - teach them
the rules and protect them with glasses like the ones you wear - right!! - and ear plugs
you can buy a bucket of them from MSC or other - then they are cheap! - Make them
available to the older kids for their pockets - going to a concert - that worked!
My bucket of plugs is lower - but I figure football games are in play to 50 or 60's now
for them. Games or music might take them out yet.

What set back my son - he was young in high school at the time - turning wood spindles -
he was checked out - and was turning a small bowl (not fully checked out) while I was
in France for a month. He was hit in the face mask with a chunk of wood and didn't ever
go back. It was to long in the recovery - without me - Maybe someday when he gets a house.

So simply - if something happens - respond and get them back into doing tasks soon.
Back on the horse after a buck - that sense.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Bart D. Hull wrote:

Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the
girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with
the foot peg. Three layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed without them
killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady being a really special
lady and REAL easy to look at I wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes,
works on her own van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists
with projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as simple as
taking their shoes off in the house and put them on to visit me in the
garage. (Yep, already had one cut a foot on some metal scraps, due to
bare feet.Still have to yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes
into the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem to have in
this group? I never had more than some burned fingers (my fault) and got
a small scald from a bad radiator cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure
didn't need any trips to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but
you just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly get
hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart


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apropos of the "company" observation, imo, shops (and car-fixing) are among
the top educational "tools" for kids, if you will. Along w/ chess, piano,
and gymnastics.
Unequaled learning vehicles, imo--makes the formal classroom pale, in
comparison.
Really a kind of learning laboratory, if approached properly.

The safety issue, however, is indeed a real concern.
Thoughtful kids will fare better in a shop environment than hyper kids, or
kids on goddamm auto-pilot. Gotta know yer "subject", so sed subject don't
become a victim.
Some kids just need to wreak havoc in a school yard.
Or play goddamm video games.

The kids here in Yonkers, proly due to the water supply, mostly need to be
duct-taped.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Ignoramus19961" wrote in message
news
My own opinion... There is no single sentence that could make kids
safe, and no single speech could make kids safe around tools. I think
that what is needed is continued attention to safety and constant
safety messages.

Such as, making kids understand why safety rules are important, how
electricity is dangerous, blah blah. Constant attention to safety is
what makes kids safe. I remind my son often that soldering guns are
often hot and should never be touched. As far as childproofing of
devices goes, Itry to make sure that nothing turns on by itself and
that there are no exposed parts where litle fingers can be caught
up. My son does not work with his tools alone, only in my presence. I
think that he likes the company more than the actual work.

i

Leo Lichtman wrote:

My sons are grown, but I worry about my cat. She can't turn on the tools by
herself, but she CAN lurk in unexpected places.

BYW, if you see gibberish in any of my posts, the cat did it.


I had a cat like that once, Leo.

Wrote perty good Fortran...

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:40:40 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

My sons are grown, but I worry about my cat. She can't turn on the tools by
herself, but she CAN lurk in unexpected places.

BYW, if you see gibberish in any of my posts, the cat did it.


Ive got a female tabby that has a seriously kinked tail. I didnt have
the back panel on the TFB (was missing when I got it) and she
evidently took to sleeping inside the base. She came out quick enough
the one time I started it up and her tail went thought the motor drive
belt.

The popsicle stick splint worked only so so.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:40:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:40:40 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

My sons are grown, but I worry about my cat. She can't turn on the tools by
herself, but she CAN lurk in unexpected places.

BYW, if you see gibberish in any of my posts, the cat did it.


Ive got a female tabby that has a seriously kinked tail. I didnt have
the back panel on the TFB (was missing when I got it) and she
evidently took to sleeping inside the base. She came out quick enough
the one time I started it up and her tail went thought the motor drive
belt.

The popsicle stick splint worked only so so.

Gunner

Within a couple weeks of starting a new job, I was invited by the boss
to spend saturday helping him landscape around his relatively new
suburban home. In the afternoon we took my car to the corner store for
cigarettes. After supper, on starting the car to go home, a red and
white (formerly white only) cat appeared from under the front of my
car. Not a good way to impress the boss's neighbours!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Al A. wrote:
Bart D. Hull wrote:


Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a girlfriend with 4
kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one of the
girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and piercing her thigh with
the foot peg. Three layers of stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

SNIP


I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the garage, but
you just know they'll find their way in when I'm not there and truly
get hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart



Every kid is different. We have six, form 4 to 21. Some love to hang
around in my shop, some are less interested. Some can be told not to
touch something and won't, some need a bit (OK alot..) more direction
and cannot be counted upon to be 100% in line, 100% of the time. I don't
let little ones run power stuff, of course, but they all had some level
of interest at various times. When I am working on something of theirs,
they will be fascinated. When I am doing my own projects, they are less
so. Lay out the shop rules, and stick to them. Make sure that YOU follow
them too!
(Yeah, my kids have caught me on that one...)

If I am trying to "accomplish" something, I tell the kids to go do
something else. that is one of the rules. When I am messing around and
one of them wants to come out and hang around, I try my best to do stuff
with them out there. It is some of the most enjoyable time I spend with
my kids, and stuff they no doubt will remember and value.

My kids are growing up around this stuff, apparently your girlfriends
kids have not. I've never been in that situation, so i can't speak with
any authority on that part. Mostly, I would guess kids are kids, all
different, but all of them need attention, direction and assistance from
the adults in their lives. Being in a position to provide that is both a
huge responsability a huge privelage. Do it well, and it will repay you
well. Not trying to sound preachey.

Have I done this all well? i don't fully know. So far, our adult and
older teens are decent, respectful hardworking kids. But in the big
picture, the jury is still out.I'll let you know how I did when our 4
year old is an adult.

Who knows, you may be one of the influences that helps to keep those
four kids from becomming what another poster referred to as "feral"
children. (thanks, Andrew,that is a great description! gonna use that
one myself!)

Besst of luck to you!

Al A.

Kinda says something about the relative age of posters in this group
when this poster is 26 and the top of the listing of "Kids" in the shop
is 21

"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:40:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:40:40 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

My sons are grown, but I worry about my cat. She can't turn on the tools
by
herself, but she CAN lurk in unexpected places.

snip

Osiris used to love to take naps in my shop, between my modeling workbench
and the oil-burner. We put a little bed for him there. He always freaked
out and ran out when I turned a vaccum cleaner on, but the rest of the
machines never bothered him. Until I got a compressor. Now he no longer
goes into the shop. Stands by the dor, but that's it.
Advice: if you're got cat problems in your shop, get a compressor and
allow a very slow leak so that it turns on at random times. End of problem.

Boris

--

-------------------------------------
Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting
1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and
Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance

TEL: 215-572-5580
FAX: 215-886-0144
Email bsquare "at" earthlink.net

------------------------------------------

In article . net, Boris Beizer
says...

Advice: if you're got cat problems in your shop, get a compressor and
allow a very slow leak so that it turns on at random times. End of problem.

Our male cat used to love to sneak around down in the basement, for
some reason he thought cobwebbs were the gods perfect food. Which
was always fine until the burner in the furnace kicked on.

He would really leviate then.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 1 Feb 2006 07:24:45 -0800, the renowned jim rozen
wrote:

In article . net, Boris Beizer
says...

Advice: if you're got cat problems in your shop, get a compressor and
allow a very slow leak so that it turns on at random times. End of problem.

Our male cat used to love to sneak around down in the basement, for
some reason he thought cobwebbs were the gods perfect food. Which
was always fine until the burner in the furnace kicked on.

He would really leviate then.

Jim

levigate? to grind to a fine smooth powder while in moist condition

levirate? the sometimes compulsory marriage of a widow to a brother of
her deceased husband

Oh, levitate.. to rise or float in the air especially in seeming
defiance of gravitation


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

In article , Spehro Pefhany says...

He would really leviate then.

levigate? to grind to a fine smooth powder while in moist condition

levirate? the sometimes compulsory marriage of a widow to a brother of
her deceased husband

Oh, levitate.. to rise or float in the air especially in seeming
defiance of gravitation

In retrospect it was more like, discorporate. And then re-appear
up in the kitchen at the top of the basement stairs. We have one
of those Weil Mclean burners that sounds like a 747 when it lights
off, whenever that would happen, the darn cat would all of a sudden
just wink out of existence from wherever he was lurking. Nothing
but a gray streak.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:35:11 -0700, "Bart D. Hull"
wrote:


Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a
girlfriend with 4 kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one
of the girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and
piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three layers of
stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed
without them killing themselves.

Never get between mama bear and her cubs. This applies doubly so for
a human female and her brood. In this case, you are the outsider
looking in, and always will be. What you see is what you get with
this package deal.


If it wasn't for the lady
being a really special lady and REAL easy to look at I
wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes, works on her own
van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists with
projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

Tell us about her, say, three years from now. Meanwhile, you might
want to have a chat with her ex to learn the reasons why he changed
his mind about her -- sooner, rather than later, when he shows up to
have tea with his kids -- he comes with the package deal also. If he
is no longer among the living, you would be wise to hire a private
investigator and independently confirm the reasons for his demise.

Unless this lady has a history of being involved in male oriented
activities since the days when she was a teenager, you may yet learn
the extent to which a woman will go to get a man (or more than one
man) -- some collect them like trophies. Make sure you are the
trapper, not the trapped.


It is even difficult to get them to understand something as
simple as taking their shoes off in the house and put them
on to visit me in the garage. (Yep, already had one cut a
foot on some metal scraps, due to bare feet.Still have to
yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes into the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem
to have in this group? I never had more than some burned
fingers (my fault) and got a small scald from a bad radiator
cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure didn't need any trips
to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the
garage, but you just know they'll find their way in when I'm
not there and truly get hurt.

Any ideas?

Get used to it. This will be your reality if you continue with the
relationship. Those kids are not yours to parent or to discipline.
Only their owner is permitted to perform such functions and she will
eventually make this very clear to you.

And one more tip: Make sure you get a prenuptial agreement if things
get serious. If the relationship goes sour, you will have enough
emotional problems to deal with, without having to face financial
ruin.


Thanks

Bart

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:25:18 GMT, "Boris Beizer"
wrote:


"Gerald Miller" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:40:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:40:40 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote:

My sons are grown, but I worry about my cat. She can't turn on the tools
by
herself, but she CAN lurk in unexpected places.

snip

Osiris used to love to take naps in my shop, between my modeling workbench
and the oil-burner. We put a little bed for him there. He always freaked
out and ran out when I turned a vaccum cleaner on, but the rest of the
machines never bothered him. Until I got a compressor. Now he no longer
goes into the shop. Stands by the dor, but that's it.
Advice: if you're got cat problems in your shop, get a compressor and
allow a very slow leak so that it turns on at random times. End of problem.

Boris


Nearly all my cats will skurry off the moment I pick up an air
hose..they either are sensitive to the sound of an air nozzel..or
figure Big Daddy is really ****ed and boy can he hiss.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:10:41 GMT, (Speechless)
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:35:11 -0700, "Bart D. Hull"
wrote:


Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a
girlfriend with 4 kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one
of the girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and
piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three layers of
stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed
without them killing themselves.

Never get between mama bear and her cubs. This applies doubly so for
a human female and her brood. In this case, you are the outsider
looking in, and always will be. What you see is what you get with
this package deal.


If it wasn't for the lady
being a really special lady and REAL easy to look at I
wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes, works on her own
van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists with
projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

Tell us about her, say, three years from now. Meanwhile, you might
want to have a chat with her ex to learn the reasons why he changed
his mind about her -- sooner, rather than later, when he shows up to
have tea with his kids -- he comes with the package deal also. If he
is no longer among the living, you would be wise to hire a private
investigator and independently confirm the reasons for his demise.

Unless this lady has a history of being involved in male oriented
activities since the days when she was a teenager, you may yet learn
the extent to which a woman will go to get a man (or more than one
man) -- some collect them like trophies. Make sure you are the
trapper, not the trapped.


It is even difficult to get them to understand something as
simple as taking their shoes off in the house and put them
on to visit me in the garage. (Yep, already had one cut a
foot on some metal scraps, due to bare feet.Still have to
yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes into the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem
to have in this group? I never had more than some burned
fingers (my fault) and got a small scald from a bad radiator
cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure didn't need any trips
to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the
garage, but you just know they'll find their way in when I'm
not there and truly get hurt.

Any ideas?

Get used to it. This will be your reality if you continue with the
relationship. Those kids are not yours to parent or to discipline.
Only their owner is permitted to perform such functions and she will
eventually make this very clear to you.

And one more tip: Make sure you get a prenuptial agreement if things
get serious. If the relationship goes sour, you will have enough
emotional problems to deal with, without having to face financial
ruin.


Some nuggets of truth there indeed.

Gunner


Thanks

Bart

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:35:11 -0700, "Bart D. Hull"
wrote:


I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the
garage, but you just know they'll find their way in when I'm
not there and truly get hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart


I don't have much experience in this kind of situation, but I haven't
seen this specific topic mentioned: You need to talk with their mother
over how both of you are going to deal with the situation. On one
hand, you're not their father. Trying to make them do what you say
will very likely be met with rebellion. On the other hand, they do
need someone to teach them safety and common sense, which I'm
surprised about, considering their mother's occupations. But you need
to discuss with her how you're allowed to handle the kids. She may
think it's a great idea. In that case you can both discuss the rules
and they'll be more likely to listen if they're coming down from both
of you, rather than just you. On the other hand, she may be the type
to take their side all the time. It's hard to take someone else's word
over your kids, and any parent will have clouded judgement in this
respect. But if she's let them go this far without learning sense then
she may very well be the type to go 'How /dare/ you talk to my kids
that way!?' and let them do whatever they want. If this is the
situation you're in, you may want to rethink the relationship. It may
not be worth the benefits once she finds one of the kids wrapped in
the lathe gears and blames you for it.

---

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
| In article . net, Boris
Beizer
| says...
|
| Advice: if you're got cat problems in your shop, get a compressor and
| allow a very slow leak so that it turns on at random times. End of
problem.
|
| Our male cat used to love to sneak around down in the basement, for
| some reason he thought cobwebbs were the gods perfect food. Which
| was always fine until the burner in the furnace kicked on.
|
| He would really leviate then.
|
| Jim

When I was growing up, our house had these floor furnaces and the ground
under the house was dug out a bit to accommodate the furnaces. We had a
gazillion cats about and they liked to head under the house for the warm
spot around the furnaces. The only problem was that the furnaces leaked gas
just a little bit, and every now and then we'd hear a "whumpf" under the
house when the gas puddling there would ignite. You could always tell when
the cats had been under there when it happened because their whiskers were
all curled up and they were really skittish for a couple days. The stupid
rodents, they would always go back for more!

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:49:51 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
| In article . net, Boris
| Beizer says...

| Advice: if you're got cat problems in your shop, get a compressor
| andallow a very slow leak so that it turns on at random times. End
| of problem.
|
| Our male cat used to love to sneak around down in the basement, for
| some reason he thought cobwebbs were the gods perfect food. Which
| was always fine until the burner in the furnace kicked on.
|
| He would really leviate then.

When I was growing up, our house had these floor furnaces and the ground
under the house was dug out a bit to accommodate the furnaces. We had a
gazillion cats about and they liked to head under the house for the warm
spot around the furnaces. The only problem was that the furnaces leaked gas
just a little bit, and every now and then we'd hear a "whumpf" under the
house when the gas puddling there would ignite. You could always tell when
the cats had been under there when it happened because their whiskers were
all curled up and they were really skittish for a couple days. The stupid
rodents, they would always go back for more!

Not as stupid as the people who lived in that house IMNSHO - all it
would take is the pilot on the leaky furnace to blow out.

When someone finally noticed and went to relight the pilot, or the
gas puddle grew big enough to spill over to the next furnace on either
side, you could end up with a BOOM! instead of a 'whumpf!'

If you figured out the why and how, someone should have been down
there post haste fixing it.

Been there, Done that, swapped out a few Penn/Baso safeties,
thermopile pilots, and B-60 millivolt gas valves in my time...

And always in the mud. I'd carry around a big roll of plastic
sheeting so I could drag a chunk down there and have a cleanish place
to work.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
| When I was growing up, our house had these floor furnaces and the
ground
| under the house was dug out a bit to accommodate the furnaces. We had a
| gazillion cats about and they liked to head under the house for the warm
| spot around the furnaces. The only problem was that the furnaces leaked
gas
| just a little bit, and every now and then we'd hear a "whumpf" under the
| house when the gas puddling there would ignite. You could always tell
when
| the cats had been under there when it happened because their whiskers
were
| all curled up and they were really skittish for a couple days. The
stupid
| rodents, they would always go back for more!
|
| Not as stupid as the people who lived in that house IMNSHO - all it
| would take is the pilot on the leaky furnace to blow out.
|
| When someone finally noticed and went to relight the pilot, or the
| gas puddle grew big enough to spill over to the next furnace on either
| side, you could end up with a BOOM! instead of a 'whumpf!'

I was a kid then and didn't know better... A few years ago my brother
went to service them and couldn't find the parts he needed for one, so he
took it out of service and the other one he fixed up pretty good. I don't
recall what my mother (sole occupant now, with my brother and family living
next door) uses for heat now at that end of the house. There was always
good ventilation under the house (East Texas, and rarely really cold) so
either my father didn't know better or didn't worry about it. It only
happened every few weeks or so, so the leak must have been pretty tiny.
It had a pilot light going all the time, which was a pain to light.
Stuck a match on a long wire with a coil, opened up the little cover in the
bottom and hurried to light the pilot before the match went out. The house
was built shortly after WWII, and the heater had to have been put in when
the house was built, although another one just like it was put in when the
house was added onto in the last 60's. Oh, and never step on it. It would
melt the grate pattern right into your shoes!

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:35:11 -0700, "Bart D. Hull"
wrote:


Gentleman,

Just thought I'd run this past y'all. Recently got a
girlfriend with 4 kids (1 Boy 4, 3 Girls 8 - 14) They
are painfully ignorant on how to be safe in a shop or garage
environment. (Had to spend Thanksgiving in the ER due to one
of the girls tipping a motorcycle over on herself and
piercing her thigh with the foot peg. Three layers of
stitches later she's somewhat OK.)

In your experience how do you get these guys up to speed
without them killing themselves. If it wasn't for the lady
being a really special lady and REAL easy to look at I
wouldn't bother. (She rides dirt bikes, works on her own
van, likes to travel, not afraid of anything, assists with
projects and is pretty darn smart, just to name a few.)

It is even difficult to get them to understand something as
simple as taking their shoes off in the house and put them
on to visit me in the garage. (Yep, already had one cut a
foot on some metal scraps, due to bare feet.Still have to
yell at her to put some shoes on when she comes into the shop.)

How do you teach the "common sense" a great deal of us seem
to have in this group? I never had more than some burned
fingers (my fault) and got a small scald from a bad radiator
cap. (Wrong place, wrong time!) I sure didn't need any trips
to the ER before I learned.

I have a great deal of patience, but it bothers me that they
will get hurt. Only other thing is to lock them out of the
garage, but you just know they'll find their way in when I'm
not there and truly get hurt.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Bart

Kinda reminds me of "Jurassic Park" -- where the kids didn't mind and
the parents seemed to accept that. I can't watch that movie without
wanting to swat both the parents and the kids -- in that order.

Kids don't always mind, they're not robots. But they *must* learn
that there are times when instant total compliance is obligatory and
not negotiable. This is for safety situations. They should not be
allowed in the shop, ever, until they learn that.

"Her" kids may need some remedial training. She's going to have to do
most of that because "she's the mom", you're the newguy. She needs
to understand that it's for their safety, it isn't just you peeing on
trees and being bull of the woods.

My kids got that training as soon as they could understand it. They
got it from occasional fire drills, etc, which we tried to make as fun
as possible with good performance amply rewarded. One night we
really did have a fire. Well, our neighbor did. I woke up when I
could feel the heat thru the bedroom outside wall! The adjacent
garage was fully ablaze. I think our youngest was about 3 at the
time. When I woke them up and calmly told them we all must walk out
the front door right now, grab a blanket and a bear and get goin',
there was zero hesitation -- and it was cold out! Man, I was so
proud of them I coulda -- well, you know. When they got outside,
they could instantly see why we'd evacuated. My house wasn't
damaged because the FD got there a couple of minutes later and hosed
down my house, but that garage was burnt to the ground. It could
have been a very different story in the space of a couple of minutes.

Later got divorced, later yet hooked up with present wife. Her kids
were clueless about shop safety, but they'd been raised to respect Mom
so learning some new safety stuff from me was no problem for them.

My two sons, well one mine and one hers, both used my hand tools at
will and such power tools as they were checked out on. I never had
any problems at all with misplaced tools. Never. My son did leave
a screwdriver out in the yard once when he was fairly young, maybe
about 8. I bought him a really crummy screwdriver and told him he
could not use mine anymore, he'd have to use his own. He said, "but
Dad, this is a really crummy screwdriver!" "Yes, it is. Good tools
are reserved for those that care for them properly." I made that
stick for about two months. That's all it took.

Kids and dogs should never ever be yelled at. If they are, then they
soon assume that you're not serious unless you're yelling. They
respond best to consistent (relentless?) calm, gentle (and yes,
loving) firmness. Disobedience must have an appropriate penalty,
but yelling ain't it. Teaching, encouraging, recognizing and
rewarding good behavior works even better. Note: ya gotta lead from
in front: teach by example. "Do as I say, not as I do" flat doesn't
work.

Don Foreman wrote:

Kids and dogs should never ever be yelled at. If they are, then they
soon assume that you're not serious unless you're yelling. They
respond best to consistent (relentless?) calm, gentle (and yes,
loving) firmness. Disobedience must have an appropriate penalty,
but yelling ain't it. Teaching, encouraging, recognizing and
rewarding good behavior works even better. Note: ya gotta lead from
in front: teach by example. "Do as I say, not as I do" flat doesn't
work.

Don, thats beautifully put, and makes sense. We are raising a grandkid
who had it pretty rough - will try to keep in mind what you say. Have
no problem with the dog - hadnt realised you need to treat the kids the
same way! But must admit - its the RELENTLESS part that gets you down -
sometimes, parenting skills just go out the window and you just YELL

Andrew VK3BFA.

However - let one of the dogs or Kids get in the real world and
have someone yell at them - they fall apart or go nuts.

There is a time and a place, but children need to learn raised voices are
for important times - either pay attention or do as told ...


Children must prepare for the world outside. Parental arguments within
reason must be around the children - and they need to know that blood isn't
drawn and parents make up after the top is blown. Life. Not as many
will trash their marriage if life is shown with love in the first place.

If we have a quiet calm life for them always expect failure modes.

Dogs behave the same way - They want your love and they understand when they are
bad. They push boarders as they grow.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Andrew VK3BFA wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:


Kids and dogs should never ever be yelled at. If they are, then they
soon assume that you're not serious unless you're yelling. They
respond best to consistent (relentless?) calm, gentle (and yes,
loving) firmness. Disobedience must have an appropriate penalty,
but yelling ain't it. Teaching, encouraging, recognizing and
rewarding good behavior works even better. Note: ya gotta lead from
in front: teach by example. "Do as I say, not as I do" flat doesn't
work.


Don, thats beautifully put, and makes sense. We are raising a grandkid
who had it pretty rough - will try to keep in mind what you say. Have
no problem with the dog - hadnt realised you need to treat the kids the
same way! But must admit - its the RELENTLESS part that gets you down -
sometimes, parenting skills just go out the window and you just YELL

Andrew VK3BFA.


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On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:11:33 GMT, "carl mciver"
wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .

| When someone finally noticed and went to relight the pilot, or the
| gas puddle grew big enough to spill over to the next furnace on either
| side, you could end up with a BOOM! instead of a 'whumpf!'

I was a kid then and didn't know better... A few years ago my brother
went to service them and couldn't find the parts he needed for one, so he
took it out of service and the other one he fixed up pretty good. I don't
recall what my mother (sole occupant now, with my brother and family living
next door) uses for heat now at that end of the house.

Gas Control Parts are still available, though you have to go to a
heating wholesale house to get them. Because improper assembly can
lead to some very nasty situations, they try to restrict access to
people with a clue. If the firebox cracks or rots out, or the cabinet
rusts through, it's curtains for the old unit.

They are still making new floor furnaces, sold primarily for
replacements - any ethical contractor asked to install a new one would
probably try to steer you over to another type equipment. If they
need another heater, I would strongly suggest removing the floor
furnaces and filling in the holes, and switching over to wall
furnaces. Much lower fire hazard, since it's harder to have things
fall and block the vents.

If putting a new vent stack through the roof is out, and you can't
intercept the old flue from the floor furnace in the wall (remove the
Transite and install B-vent in the same hole) and reuse it at that
location for the wall furnace, you can get direct-vent heaters that
exhaust horizontally through the outside wall.

There was always
good ventilation under the house (East Texas, and rarely really cold) so
either my father didn't know better or didn't worry about it. It only
happened every few weeks or so, so the leak must have been pretty tiny.

Lucky. ;-)

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

First off let me give some background if I may. As a youngster I was
Hell on wheels but wasn't Clumsy or Stupid nor did I have a Death wish.
As a matter of fact as I approach the age of Fifty in October almost
everyone that knows me still tells me regularly to "Be MORE careful ,
You could have been Killed" or "You crazy Ba__urd its amazing you lived
this Long" or how about this one "Just try to Act and Be more
responsible , If not for your own safety , then how about the safety of
those around you" !! My older Brother and I have owned Hendrix Machine
and Tool , Inc. , a Small family Job Shop ( mostly very short run
Aerospace and Aircraft parts ) in Santa Maria , California since August
1977. I still have all my extremities and I dont ave Black lung ,
Eymphasema , Cancer , Nor do I have or will I EVER Develop an Overian
Cyst from breathing grinding dust and Coolant 8 to 12 hours a day or
Drinking too much Hard Liquor and Carousing with lots of loose women or
Smoking Bong hits of Marijuana ( I think I may have Glucoma) Minutes
before jumping off a 3000 foot cliff wearing a small parachute doing
whats known as FACE DIVING.

My Opinion is this - ( These are not ASSUMPTION'S they are FACT based
on OBSERVATIONS and EXPERIANCES during near on 50 years of Living and
doing just about any and every thing I ever wanted to try.)

Humans have only a Few things they can not be taught or learned, EVER !
However they can be taught ABOUT them , How they relate to the Human
condition , How their actions effect others and themselves , What
these God given and unlearnable / unchangeable traits are , How they
can be used or mis-used, etc. , etc.....
These Few things AND How we View and Deal with them is all within are
Mind and Hearts and the BASIC Rules born there can never be CHANGED by
teaching , punishing or by ignorance !


The FEW things that are Born Within a

1. Knowledge of Moral Rights and Wrongs ( from day 1 we endure feelings
of Guilt , Shame , Sympathy , Love , Hate , Joy , Helpless and
Hopelessness , Curiosity , Confusion , Despair and Pride and our mind
and bodys reaction to these has everything to do with how we deal and
conduct ourselves with other Humans ! ).

2. Comman Sense ( a 6 month old knows not to purposely stuff his or
hers hand into or thru a turning Fan Blade or Propeller just as they
knew not to eat the nieghbors Cat. Some how we just get this feeling
that something is JUST NOT RIGHT.).

3. A NEED of Purpose ( we see the world as our enviornment to be
Nutured , Built upon , Shaped , Molded ,Conquered , Improved and
Understood )

You must understand that in reality people get hurt and killed everyday
and we are POWERLESS over it. So hey , Give all them kids one hand tool
from within your shop and point them out the door and into the
nieghborhood with the One Condition that they cannot come back without
some kind of proof of actually use of the Tool for or on something (
preferably the way the Tool was intended to be used and for the side of
Good not Evil ) or without the hand tool issued to them.

Although COMMON SENSE cannot be taught , EARNED PERSONAL RESPECT and
RESPECT for others CAN be . And in finishing I MUST add , that not only
were we all young once and survived it ( some better than others
OBVIOUSLY ) , But that without the Proper RESPECT having been bestown
by each one of us upon all known TOOLs and every piece of SHOP
EQUIPMENT in our Lives , we would've all suffered or be suffering
Massive and QUICK loss of LIFE , LIMB and / or Blood.

JUST ONE MANS VIEW ! THANKS FOR LISTENING !

Robert G. Hendrix
American Outlaw Goods 'n' Services
Santa Maria , Ca. , 93458
U.S.A. , North American Landmass

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:11:14 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

However - let one of the dogs or Kids get in the real world and
have someone yell at them - they fall apart or go nuts.

There is a time and a place, but children need to learn raised voices are
for important times - either pay attention or do as told ...

I strongly disagree. A strong voice is needed for important times,
and it must be clearly audible but need not be overly loud. Tone
is more important and effective than volume. A strong command
voice need not be loud, and in fact it is more effective if it is not.
Discipline and control (or lack of same) on the part of the speaker
is instantly sensed by those from whom instant unquestioning
obedience is expected. If response is fear-based it'll happen
short term, but that's not an acceptable way to deal with children
or a dog I'd care to have as a companion. I'd rather have children
and dogs that can deal with fear without being governed by it.

Leadership is strongly based on earned trust and respect.
If your children are worth a **** with any spunk at all, you must
earn their respect as you must with any command. You must do it
consistently, every day. That's the only way that works. The only
way to lead is from in front, "follow me".

Dogs and kids acutely sense when the adult is out of control.
Adolescent girls play that card with uncanny skill. If she can ****
you off enough to yell or be about ready to deck her, she wins long
term. Girls you love can try you sorely because they know which
buttons to push. Been there, done that.

There is nothing more effective than quiet calm fury. Set wide walls
so there is room for exploration -- but make hitting the walls hurt
noticably. How noticibly depends on the kid. Some kids are
incredibly tough. I had a couple like that. Blow curfew for
third time, the doors are locked go sleep in yer car at 30 below.
Tough kids cope, and learn from the experience.

Perhaps my bio kids take after their mother?

My kids, biological and otherwise, were absolutely not intimidated
by loud voices. They heard that crap in the schoolyard and they
quickly learned that volume often implies weak bluff rather than
resolute strength. My son once quietly took abuse from a bully for
three weeks, then decided the hell with the consequences and
coldcocked him, broke his jaw. Training I'd offered to him had
been that it's always best to avoid a fight, but if a fight is
necessary it should get done as quickly as possible as in 15 seconds
or less. Boxing and wrestling are sports, real fights are not sport
but matters to be deal with as expediently as possible.

You can imagine what I heard from the principal and the bully's
parents about that! I thought Kev did just right. He'd suffered
patiently long enough and then acted decisively and appropriately. I
told him so and I backed that up with support. It all got sorted out
with little more ado. Might not have worked out so smoothly in
California, all the lawyers there and all, but we live in Minnesota.
Kids don't need to hear loud voices to learn not to spook from loud
voices. Better to teach them to recognize real strength vs noise.

On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 01:59:37 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:11:14 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

However - let one of the dogs or Kids get in the real world and
have someone yell at them - they fall apart or go nuts.

There is a time and a place, but children need to learn raised voices are
for important times - either pay attention or do as told ...

I strongly disagree. A strong voice is needed for important times,
and it must be clearly audible but need not be overly loud. Tone
is more important and effective than volume. A strong command
voice need not be loud, and in fact it is more effective if it is not.
Discipline and control (or lack of same) on the part of the speaker
is instantly sensed by those from whom instant unquestioning
obedience is expected. If response is fear-based it'll happen
short term, but that's not an acceptable way to deal with children
or a dog I'd care to have as a companion. I'd rather have children
and dogs that can deal with fear without being governed by it.

Leadership is strongly based on earned trust and respect.
If your children are worth a **** with any spunk at all, you must
earn their respect as you must with any command. You must do it
consistently, every day. That's the only way that works. The only
way to lead is from in front, "follow me".

Dogs and kids acutely sense when the adult is out of control.
Adolescent girls play that card with uncanny skill. If she can ****
you off enough to yell or be about ready to deck her, she wins long
term. Girls you love can try you sorely because they know which
buttons to push. Been there, done that.

There is nothing more effective than quiet calm fury. Set wide walls
so there is room for exploration -- but make hitting the walls hurt
noticably. How noticibly depends on the kid. Some kids are
incredibly tough. I had a couple like that. Blow curfew for
third time, the doors are locked go sleep in yer car at 30 below.
Tough kids cope, and learn from the experience.

That was an excellent read, Don. Now to get that kind of thinking into
our totally -hosed- educational system...


Perhaps my bio kids take after their mother?

g


My kids, biological and otherwise, were absolutely not intimidated
by loud voices. They heard that crap in the schoolyard and they
quickly learned that volume often implies weak bluff rather than
resolute strength. My son once quietly took abuse from a bully for
three weeks, then decided the hell with the consequences and
coldcocked him, broke his jaw. Training I'd offered to him had
been that it's always best to avoid a fight, but if a fight is
necessary it should get done as quickly as possible as in 15 seconds
or less. Boxing and wrestling are sports, real fights are not sport
but matters to be deal with as expediently as possible.

I took my bully down without a fight using the passive/aggressive
approach. When I finally stood up to the jerk, I strode right up to
him, dangled my arms straight down at my side and yelled (so everyone
around could hear me and so it would embarrass him) "OK, if you're
going to hit me, HIT ME! Otherwise, just leave me the hell alone." He
backed down and never bothered me again. (IOW, I got lucky.


You can imagine what I heard from the principal and the bully's
parents about that! I thought Kev did just right. He'd suffered
patiently long enough and then acted decisively and appropriately. I
told him so and I backed that up with support. It all got sorted out
with little more ado. Might not have worked out so smoothly in
California, all the lawyers there and all, but we live in Minnesota.
Kids don't need to hear loud voices to learn not to spook from loud
voices. Better to teach them to recognize real strength vs noise.

Agreed! I'll bet his bully thought twice about bullying people from
that point on, eh? bseg


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In article , Don Foreman says...

There is nothing more effective than quiet calm fury.

This is a general truth, not just with kids. For some reason
my wife does this unusually well. I call it "Thinly Veiled Rage"
because that's how it comes across. When she's really angry
at somebody, but trying not to lose her temper, that's what
comes across - and oddly folks back away from that, more than
they do from the real anger.

Set wide walls
so there is room for exploration -- but make hitting the walls hurt
noticably. How noticibly depends on the kid. Some kids are
incredibly tough. I had a couple like that. Blow curfew for
third time, the doors are locked go sleep in yer car at 30 below.
Tough kids cope, and learn from the experience.

I could try that I suppose if I ever had to - but seeing as I taught
her to pick locks, it might not last long. g

Jim


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