On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 05:07:17 GMT, Bert wrote:
Dave,

You seem to think it's OK for the seller to want to get as much as
possible for an item, but it's not OK for a buyer to want to pay as
little as possible, even though both play within the rules. Where is
the fairness in that?

I think the bidders should have an equal chance to decide when they're
done bidding.

As for all buyers having an equal chance, someone in the auction will
always have an advantage, whether it's a fatter wallet or more time to
spend at auctions or a better bidding strategy or even a willingness
to bid more than an item is worth. As far as advantages go, sniping
doesn't really offer that much. '

Right, which explains why nobody does it. I understand now.

On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 05:20:25 -0700, SteveB wrote:
I believe there is something that every child should learn by the age of
five.

Life is not fair, and there is no justice in the world.

And there's always some asshole who comes in with "Everyone else is
doing it, so screw you". Yup. Doesn't mean I have to bend over and
take it.

On 11 Jul 2005 15:01:16 GMT, the renowned Dave Hinz
wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 05:20:25 -0700, SteveB wrote:
I believe there is something that every child should learn by the age of
five.

Life is not fair, and there is no justice in the world.

And there's always some asshole who comes in with "Everyone else is
doing it, so screw you". Yup. Doesn't mean I have to bend over and
take it.

What do you propose to do then?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
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Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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In article , Dave Hinz says...

People who are sniping are doing it so they can outbid the guy with the
top bid, at the last minute, so nobody else can do the same thing to
them that they're doing to others. Like I said before, obviously those
who use it are OK with that. I know it's going to happen, but I'm not
going to let a claim that it's not done for exactly that reason go
unchallenged.

Dave, consider 'sniping' as such (putting ones maximum bid
in at the last second or two) to be the moral equivalent of a
sealed-bid auction.

Everyone decides what they want to pay for an item, tops.
Each writes that number on a slip of paper, and the slips
go in a hat.

At the end of the auction, the bid with the largest number is
accepted.

Of course, there are minimums, and reserves. Plus you have folks
who do indeed bid up during the auction.

But ebay has decided that those are the rules of their game,
and eveyone follows them. There are other auction houses online,
and real, live auctions, that extend bidding times once that
'one last bid' shows up, so folks have the chance to trump it.

If sellers really felt that ebay were screwing them out of
money, they would sell some other way. I like ebay's rules
as they are now, and would not bid in online auctions unless
there were a set time limit. So I don't.

Jim


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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:15:18 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On 11 Jul 2005 15:01:16 GMT, the renowned Dave Hinz
wrote:

And there's always some asshole who comes in with "Everyone else is
doing it, so screw you". Yup. Doesn't mean I have to bend over and
take it.

What do you propose to do then?

I've stated my proposal a couple of times; maybe you missed it. Give
sellers an option for their auctions which will automatically extend the
end-time of the auction by 15 minutes if any bids come in within 15
minutes of the end of the auction. Gives the buyers a chance to win the
auction without turning it into a contest of who has the fastest network
connection, or the best sniping software. Just like a real auction -
they keep the bidding open until nobody else wants to bid. Last person
to raise it, gets the item.

I mean, it's been done that way for a few centuries at least, maybe
there's something to it.

In article , Dave Hinz says...

I've stated my proposal a couple of times; maybe you missed it. Give
sellers an option for their auctions which will automatically extend the
end-time of the auction by 15 minutes if any bids come in within 15
minutes of the end of the auction. Gives the buyers a chance to win the
auction without turning it into a contest of who has the fastest network
connection, or the best sniping software. Just like a real auction -
they keep the bidding open until nobody else wants to bid. Last person
to raise it, gets the item.

I mean, it's been done that way for a few centuries at least, maybe
there's something to it.

Other auction houses do this right now. Folks can sell and buy
using them - but I never would. Ebay gives the sellers enough
advantage because of the huge buyer pool. The other auction
houses (that extend auction times) don't have that buyer pool
because folks recognize that ebay does provide some benefits for
the buyers because auctions do end at a particular time. This
is a good example of true free-market economics at work.

Jim


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On 11 Jul 2005 08:39:53 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says...

People who are sniping are doing it so they can outbid the guy with the
top bid, at the last minute, so nobody else can do the same thing to
them that they're doing to others.

Dave, consider 'sniping' as such (putting ones maximum bid
in at the last second or two) to be the moral equivalent of a
sealed-bid auction.

But, it's _not_ a sealed bid auction. The sniper can see what's in the
other envelopes, or at least, who else is bidding. They're looking at
some of the other guys' cards, without showing any of theirs.

But ebay has decided that those are the rules of their game,
and eveyone follows them. There are other auction houses online,
and real, live auctions, that extend bidding times once that
'one last bid' shows up, so folks have the chance to trump it.

Yup.

If sellers really felt that ebay were screwing them out of
money, they would sell some other way.

And in fact, I have decided that, and am selling on other sites, for
that reason.

I like ebay's rules
as they are now, and would not bid in online auctions unless
there were a set time limit. So I don't.

Well, like I said, if there was a seller's option for automatic
extension following late bids, I'd use it. If it's visible, and the
snipers decided not to bid on that item, well, that's just fine.

On 11 Jul 2005 08:59:15 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says...

Just like a real auction -
they keep the bidding open until nobody else wants to bid. Last person
to raise it, gets the item.
I mean, it's been done that way for a few centuries at least, maybe
there's something to it.

Other auction houses do this right now. Folks can sell and buy
using them - but I never would. Ebay gives the sellers enough
advantage because of the huge buyer pool. The other auction
houses (that extend auction times) don't have that buyer pool
because folks recognize that ebay does provide some benefits for
the buyers because auctions do end at a particular time. This
is a good example of true free-market economics at work.

Well, eBay is leading because they're eBay and were the first to do it
well. I wouldn't say that the others are behind because they allow
auction times to be extended.

Maybe eBay would be even more successful if they allowed it.

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:32:23 GMT, xray
wrote:

I've been looking for a 4-jaw chuck for my lathe. Here's one that I was
following, but I think got too high for some reason:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=7527214875

When I look at the bidding history, I see one person bidding up the
price with no other bids in between. I have seen this before on other
eBay auctions.

I can't figure out how this can happen. Is there something missing in
the history that is displayed or is there some other explanation.

Just curious about this weirdness that I have seen before.


Sniping does prevent some buyers from winning auctions. Contrary to
what sniping services tell you, 10 snipers cannot bid in the last 2
seconds. If that is your max bid, why not bid that earlier in the
auction?

If the seller were able to end the auction at any time, that would end
sniping. The seller would get an acceptable fair market price after
everyone had a chance to bid. Just like a real auction.

If the seller were able to end the auction at any time, that would end
sniping.

If I'm a seller on ebay, why would I stop the auction early when the
price might double or triple in the last minute??? I'm looking to get
max dollars and stopping the auction early and settling for less
doesn't make sense! I just set the reserve price and wait for the
auction to end.

chuck

Dave Hinz wrote:
And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.

Here's a thought - decide what you want to pay for it, put in a reserve
bid, and wait for the email. If it's more than you wanted to pay, you
wn't get it. Everyone gets to decide how much it's worth, and the guy
who bids the most gets the item.

If everyone (including you) who bitched about sniping took your advice,
sniping wouldn't deprive the seller of anything, would it? Telling
people to place one bid for what they think an item is worth, then
complaining because snipers rob people of the opportunity to bid more
than once, in the same post no less, is awfully dense.

On 11 Jul 2005 13:36:14 -0700, wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:
And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.

Here's a thought - decide what you want to pay for it, put in a reserve
bid, and wait for the email. If it's more than you wanted to pay, you
wn't get it. Everyone gets to decide how much it's worth, and the guy
who bids the most gets the item.

If everyone (including you) who bitched about sniping took your advice,
sniping wouldn't deprive the seller of anything, would it?

Exactly. The people who snipe make it so the people who don't snipe are
disadvantaged in the auction. Thank you for getting my point.

Face it. People bidding don't know what things are worth, and often,
the sellers don't either. What's wrong with wanting to figure out the
value in the traditional way - let the bids rise until the
second-highest guy decides that it's at it's value, and stops bidding?

"Chuck Sherwood" wrote

If I'm a seller on ebay, why would I stop the auction early when the
price might double or triple in the last minute??? I'm looking to get
max dollars and stopping the auction early and settling for less
doesn't make sense! I just set the reserve price and wait for the
auction to end.

chuck

I have sold hundreds of items on ebay. Most of the action is in the last 60
seconds.

Steve

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:49:52 -0700, SteveB wrote:

I have sold hundreds of items on ebay. Most of the action is in the last 60
seconds.

I wonder how much you've lost out on over the years from people who
couldn't get their bids in in that last minute?

Dave Hinz wrote:
On 11 Jul 2005 13:36:14 -0700, wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:
And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.

Here's a thought - decide what you want to pay for it, put in a reserve
bid, and wait for the email. If it's more than you wanted to pay, you
wn't get it. Everyone gets to decide how much it's worth, and the guy
who bids the most gets the item.

If everyone (including you) who bitched about sniping took your advice,
sniping wouldn't deprive the seller of anything, would it?

Exactly. The people who snipe make it so the people who don't snipe are
disadvantaged in the auction. Thank you for getting my point.

According to you:

The people who "place their max proxy bid late" make it so the people
who "place their max proxy bid early" are disadvantaged in the auction.

ROFL!

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:49:52 -0700, SteveB
wrote:

I have sold hundreds of items on ebay. Most of the action is in the last
60
seconds.

I wonder how much you've lost out on over the years from people who
couldn't get their bids in in that last minute?


I don't spend a second thinking of such things. Whether it's ebay, or a
barn sale in Pocatello, Idaho, the rules are set before hand. If you
participate, either as a seller or a buyer, you accept those rules and go
with it.

If an auction for a specific set of goods were held in Vero Beach, Florida
instead of Pocatello, the prices would probably would be different.

If an auction is held on a Tuesday morning, the results would probably be
different than if it were held on a Saturday afternoon.

Many things can affect an auction.

You may have a busload of clueless newbies show up, or just stupid people
who will pay more than retail for a thoroughly used item. Then, you might
have a bunch of tightwads show up and not sell very good merchandise at low
reserves.

I put it up for sale. I take the highest bidder that sticks by the rules I
set before the auction.

I don't sit around and play "What If?" afterward. It is pointless and an
exercise in frustration for the bored or the angry.

If'n you don't like something, don't do it. Especially if you are going to
sit around afterward and **** and moan endlessly.

Steve

On 11 Jul 2005 14:08:28 -0700, wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:
On 11 Jul 2005 13:36:14 -0700, wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:
And yet, you're using a shady tactic to bid without giving others a
chance to make their bids.

Here's a thought - decide what you want to pay for it, put in a reserve
bid, and wait for the email. If it's more than you wanted to pay, you
wn't get it. Everyone gets to decide how much it's worth, and the guy
who bids the most gets the item.

If everyone (including you) who bitched about sniping took your advice,
sniping wouldn't deprive the seller of anything, would it?

Exactly. The people who snipe make it so the people who don't snipe are
disadvantaged in the auction. Thank you for getting my point.

According to you:

The people who "place their max proxy bid late" make it so the people
who "place their max proxy bid early" are disadvantaged in the auction.

Yes. ROFL all you want, but the reason you're doing it (hypothetically,
of course) is to get the item without them having a chance to outbid
you. Tell me I'm wrong. It's all about you doing it to them so they
can't do it to you. Do you deny that?

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:12:16 -0700, SteveB wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

I wonder how much you've lost out on over the years from people who
couldn't get their bids in in that last minute?

If'n you don't like something, don't do it.

I don't, because of that. As I may have mentioned a time or 3, I've
taken my auction business elsewhere to avoid that problem (and eBay's
"Nothing that looks like anything related to firearms" policy).

Especially if you are going to
sit around afterward and **** and moan endlessly.

Well, people keep saying "It's not really about getting an unfair
advantage on the other bidders, because it's just about getting an
unfair advantage on the other bidders, you see", or variants of the
same.

But yeah, the topic stopped being interesting a while ago. I'm not
going to change anyone's mind, and I've taken steps to avoid it. I
prefer to let the marketplace determine the price at the end of an
auction, rather than turning it into a technology shove-fest in the last
minutes.

Some brain dead Netizen wrote:

Exactly. The people who snipe make it so the people who don't snipe are
disadvantaged in the auction.

Then, go and sign up for a snipe. I figure that I save money because of
using bidnapper. I am happy with it.

It is far better than proxy, because a proxy can be run up by a totally
clueless newbie who just wants the item at any price, and then the price is
driven up early. Most times by someone who doesn't end up winning.

Sniping works EXACTLY as proxies do. You put the maximum you will pay into
the system, and if you are high, you get it. It just doesn't do it early
enough to allow bidding wars and clueless newbies to mess things up.

HTH, but I doubt it. You seem pretty angry about snipers. I'll bet you
don't snipe. If you did, you would know what smoke you are trying to blow
in people's faces.

Or you are just a troll.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:19:11 -0700, SteveB wrote:
Some brain dead Netizen wrote:

Exactly. The people who snipe make it so the people who don't snipe are
disadvantaged in the auction.

Then, go and sign up for a snipe. I figure that I save money because of
using bidnapper. I am happy with it.

Sinking to the level of using something I disagree with ethically isn't
the sort of thing I'd do, but thanks for the suggestion.

Sniping works EXACTLY as proxies do.

Then use the proxy. Oh wait, you don't want to. Why, oh why, might
that be? Oh, probably because it _doesn't_ work exactly as proxies do.

You put the maximum you will pay into
the system, and if you are high, you get it. It just doesn't do it early
enough to allow bidding wars and clueless newbies to mess things up.

Translation: I am more entitled to this item than some newbie who
bids the way the auction is set up and hasn't stooped to sniping yet.

HTH, but I doubt it. You seem pretty angry about snipers. I'll bet you
don't snipe.

No ****. It'd be pretty hypocritical to dislike and yet do it, wouldn't
it now?

If you did, you would know what smoke you are trying to blow
in people's faces.

Smoke? Bidders don't get a chance to decide if they want to post a new
bid, because the sniper comes in in the last seconds. Sellers lose out
from that possible bid.

Or you are just a troll.

Because I disagree with you, I'm a troll? I don't think so. I'm just
someone who finds what you are defending to be something I've chosen to
avoid.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:32:38 GMT, xray wrote:

I think what the whiners want, is for sellers to have the right to
arbitrarily extend the bidding period if it looks like there is a
bidding battle in the last few seconds.

I'm not proposing anything arbitrary, I'm proposing "This auction has
auto-extension in the event of late bids".

Everybody knows and plays by the same rules. Sniping doesn't really give
a bidder any advantage except against people who might have otherwise
upped their bid in the last few seconds if they knew they needed to.

Exactly. That is my point...the part starting with "except against people..."

Hinz's argument reminds me of that equally unimportant and wasted
discussion.

Riiiiight. Because I don't like people doing last second bids to keep
others from having a chance to outbid them, I'm just like the guy who
wants to kill lane-splitters. I see.

In article , Dave Hinz says...

But, it's _not_ a sealed bid auction. The sniper can see what's in the
other envelopes, or at least, who else is bidding. They're looking at
some of the other guys' cards, without showing any of theirs.

Realistically speaking, though, it *is*. For any kind of
real technical goods being sold, all the real bids fall in the
last few minutes. The real, real bids fall in the last
few seconds.

Jim


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In article , Dave Hinz says...

Maybe eBay would be even more successful if they allowed it.
[extending auction times]

Maybe, maybe not. Having a set time limit does provide
some real advantage to the bidders, which makes folks
feel better about using the service, which increases the
buyer pool, which is *overall* good for the sellers.

Having a definite time limit is a trade off in this regard.

It *looks* like it's an absolute benefit to the buyers,
but in practice it may not be.

Jim


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I wonder how much you've lost out on over the years from people who
couldn't get their bids in in that last minute?

Considering that ebay typically has the highest prices in town,
I don't think sellers are losing anything! I frequently see things
sell for more than they are available somewhere else. People are
reselling HF stuff, lindsay book etc and making a profit. I don't
think sellers are losing anything.

chuck

I think what the whiners want, is for sellers to have the right to
arbitrarily extend the bidding period if it looks like there is a
bidding battle in the last few seconds. In my opinion that would be at
much more slimey than sniping. A whole new can of worms that would
quickly get me off of eBay bidding.

As a seller, a bidding frenzy is exactly what I want.
In my opinion, I think last minute snipping drives the price up.
Why; because it encourages bidders to put in a high bid knowing
its their ONLY chance to get the item. So everyone is placing
max bids at the very end. I still think that ebay gets top dollar
and I don't think sellers are getting hurt at all. It
would be interesting to compare to other sites though.

In article , Dave Hinz says...

I'm not proposing anything arbitrary, I'm proposing "This auction has
auto-extension in the event of late bids".

In which case my proposal would be "I'm not bidding on that stuff,
no way, no how." AKA, it was nice not doing business with him.

Jim


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Dave Hinz wrote:



Smoke? Bidders don't get a chance to decide if they want to post a new
bid, because the sniper comes in in the last seconds. Sellers lose out
from that possible bid.


WHich will be true of any auction with a definite end time. NO less
fair than those times I forget an auction I was watching was coming
up, and log in after it is over. THe seller missed that bid too.

jk

Dave Hinz wrote:



You make no sense what so ever here.

How so?


Because you were incohprhresnsibe.

THe seller is not cheated because he is willing to sell at whatever
price he gets above the starting (or reserve ) price. He enters a
"binding contract" to do so.

Yes. And if you're manipulating the system to make sure that the
winning price is lower than it would be if everyone had a chance to bid,
then you're lowering that end price. Do you dispute that?

Yes. We clearly disagree that every one had a chance to bid. To me
they clearly did.


And then, why do you snipe exactly? Since you can get what you want for
what you want to pay for it if you just bid that amount, as you suggest
others do?

What in the world makes you think I snipe??????? Just because I don't
think it is "shady"

Right, you're defending and describing it but you don't do it. Gotcha.
Wrong.

I place my bids when I see the item I want, and I am not already
bidding on something similar, and it is a couple of days or less
(usually) away.

No snipeing service, no rushing to the computer furiously trying to
get in to bid at the last second.




As I said, I bid the most I am willing to pay for an item at that
time. If later I have reason to increase that bid (such as loosing
another auction) I might increase it, but that is rare.

And by sniping, you deny other people of the ability to do exactly that.

What you can't read? when did I snipe? WHen have I ever?

jk

Dave Hinz wrote:

O

Everyone does -not- have an equal chance. The snipers know damn well
taht the goal is to get in the last bid and not give others that chance
to still win the item.

Except that every one COULD use a snipeing service (or do it by hand).
And if you do use them, you stand the chance of getting "knocked
aside" to use your term, and losing out completely.


I do think the idea someone raised, of extending the auction by 15 min
if there are bids in the last few min to be a good one.

Yes, I'm the one who made that point.

I would modify it to be a single extension, of random but short
duration. But all either of them does, is equalize the chances of the
snipe services with the manual sniper. It still wont get the seller
more $ out of me. I am not even there when the auction ends, except by
happenstance once.



jk

Dave Hinz wrote:


Yes, I understand the whole "name on the post" thing, thank you. An
awful lot of people defend sniping, and then weasel with "Well, I never
said _I_ did it". They also don't say they don't do it.


I don't, it is not that I wouldn't, but that I don't see an advantage
to me in doing so. It ties up either my time or my money, and there is
always another widget coming down the road to ebay.


And exactly what $ amount wouldn't be "asshole-ish behavior "??
Perhaps that person also thought the price was 600, Should she say
700 just to keep YOU happy?

Well, 602 would still be being an asshole, 625 wouldn't, I would guess.
I haven't given it much thought (shrug?).
So $24 is the difference between an asshole and a saint.

So, on to something you clearly have thought about, how late a bid is
sniping then, the last week, the last day, the last hour, the last
minute, or the last second, or even the last millisecond?


jk

"jk" wrote:

So, on to something you clearly have thought about, how late a bid is
sniping then, the last week, the last day, the last hour, the last
minute, or the last second, or even the last millisecond?


jk

Sniping is when some MFer wins and you don't. Hope this explanation helps.
;-)

Steve

In article omEAe.26175$4o.24229@fed1read06, SteveB says...

Sniping is when some MFer wins and you don't. Hope this explanation helps.
;-)

LOL. Or when the seller is absolutely certain there was some
guy out there who was watching TV, taking a crap, out for
a drive, or otherwise indisposed, who would have paid 2x
what the gizmo sold for.

This is the same view of life that the sniper has, when
somebody else gets the gizmo instead of him, and he was
sure if he just went two dollars more he could have had it.

Jim


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On 11 Jul 2005 17:55:00 -0700, the renowned jim rozen
wrote:

In article omEAe.26175$4o.24229@fed1read06, SteveB says...

Sniping is when some MFer wins and you don't. Hope this explanation helps.
;-)

LOL. Or when the seller is absolutely certain there was some
guy out there who was watching TV, taking a crap, out for
a drive, or otherwise indisposed, who would have paid 2x
what the gizmo sold for.

This is the same view of life that the sniper has, when
somebody else gets the gizmo instead of him, and he was
sure if he just went two dollars more he could have had it.

Jim

*Sometimes* you can be *sure* of that (if the difference between bids
as shown in the final bid history is less than the minimum bid
increment).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:
On 11 Jul 2005 08:39:53 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says...

People who are sniping are doing it so they can outbid the guy with the
top bid, at the last minute, so nobody else can do the same thing to
them that they're doing to others.

Dave, consider 'sniping' as such (putting ones maximum bid
in at the last second or two) to be the moral equivalent of a
sealed-bid auction.

But, it's _not_ a sealed bid auction. The sniper can see what's in the
other envelopes, or at least, who else is bidding. They're looking at
some of the other guys' cards, without showing any of theirs.

That does not change my (snipe) bid. I decide early what I want
to bid. If, by the time the auction is approaching its closing time,
the visible bids are above that, I won't bit. If the visible bids are
not above my maximum, I bid my maximum. Sniping only gives me two
benefits:

1) I don't wind up with someone who isn't *sure* what it is worth to
them bumping my bid up a few dollars at a time until they find
my maximum or they finally decide that they don't want to spend
*that* much for it after all -- after pushing my bid to more
than I otherwise would have needed to pay.

2) I don't have the time to increment my own bid, if someone outbids
me, so I can't be *goaded* into bidding more than I had already
set as a maximum.

Oh yes -- also it leaves me free to bid on another auction for
the same item. Let me give you an example:

I remember that there was a long auction (10 days, IIRC) for a
nice set of three or four Tesa tri-mikes. (I forget whether it was the
0.6-0.8" set or the 0.8-1.2" set. I now have both.

The description in this auction was wonderful, as were the
images. Lots of them, and lots of detail. As a result, this drew quite
a bit of attention -- both early bidders and snipers..

Then a second set showed up. Not as nice a photo, not as nice a
description, but the photo showed that it had the wrenches for the
extension tubes and both setting rings.

That second auction was set to close a day before the first.
Since I had not put in a bid for the first, I opted to bid on the
second, which had quite a lot fewer bids. I got the more complete set
for a significant but acceptable price (far from dirt cheap). A day
later, I watched the first auction close for $300.00 more than I got the
second set for.

Now -- if I had put in a bid early on the first, what I was
willing to pay for it, I would not have felt free to bid on the second
set (as I don't buy things just to turn around and re-sell them -- I buy
them to *use* them.) The first closing auction would have closed for
less than I was willing to pay, to the loss of the seller of that
auction. And -- the final closing price of the second closing auction
*was* well past what I was willing to pay, so I would have had no effect
on the closing price of that one either -- and would still be without
that set of tri-mikes.

I can see your point if you think that all sniping is done with
full knowledge of the current bids, and with a bid calculated to just be
above the visible bids. But -- remember that a sniper does *not* know
what remaining unused escrow is in the top bid which is showing, and he
also does not know what other snipers will be bidding. A sniper, to
have a *serious* chance, must also bid what he considers the item to be
worth to him. If there is no competition (as is sometimes the case) the
sniper is lucky. Often there are other snipers who bid more than what I
think something is worth to me. How do you think that *you* lose in
that case?

But ebay has decided that those are the rules of their game,
and eveyone follows them. There are other auction houses online,
and real, live auctions, that extend bidding times once that
'one last bid' shows up, so folks have the chance to trump it.

Yup.

If sellers really felt that ebay were screwing them out of
money, they would sell some other way.

And in fact, I have decided that, and am selling on other sites, for
that reason.

O.K. Then you won't be seeing my* bids, even if you have
something which I want. There is not enough time to search all of the
auction sites. eBay has a greater chance of having what I want, so that
is where I go for my searches.

I like ebay's rules
as they are now, and would not bid in online auctions unless
there were a set time limit. So I don't.

Well, like I said, if there was a seller's option for automatic
extension following late bids, I'd use it. If it's visible, and the
snipers decided not to bid on that item, well, that's just fine.

Depending on what you were selling with such an option, I might
or might not bid.

But --- if there were such an option, you would simply see a new
form of sniping -- seeing how close you could get to that fifteen-minute
period without triggering an extension.

Remember -- there are a *lot* of people out there, and some
percentage of them will figure out the best way to make the auctions
work for *them*.

Enjoy,
DoN.


* Actually, I do not make the bids. my wife does. And sometimes,
neither of us remember that an auction is closing until too late
which is another way that you (as the seller) can loose from
manual sniping.

We do not use a sniping service, as we don't believe in
releasing our eBay password to anyone else.

Aside from that, using a sniping service presumably makes it
more difficult to back out of a planned bid, if an alternative
one which is better shows up set to close earlier. :-)
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes. ROFL all you want, but the reason you're doing it (hypothetically,
of course) is to get the item without them having a chance to outbid
you. Tell me I'm wrong. It's all about you doing it to them so they
can't do it to you. Do you deny that?

OK, you're wrong. They can outbid me instantly if they've placed a
proxy. Even if they haven't read eBay's recommendations on how to bid,
anyone with half a brain can figure it out after an auction or two.

There's no way that I can be sure that sniping has saved me money (i.e.
there's no way you can prove that the sellers have lost money). Yet
I'll do it anyway, because it has other advantages that you either
ignore or don't understand.

On 11 Jul 2005 15:34:55 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Dave Hinz says...

I'm not proposing anything arbitrary, I'm proposing "This auction has
auto-extension in the event of late bids".

In which case my proposal would be "I'm not bidding on that stuff,
no way, no how." AKA, it was nice not doing business with him.

Great; isn't choice _wonderful_, Jim? I don't want to sell to someone
who snipes, and since the purpose of such a term of sale is to avoid
them, it sounds like a win-win.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:31:08 -0700, jk wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

O

Everyone does -not- have an equal chance. The snipers know damn well
taht the goal is to get in the last bid and not give others that chance
to still win the item.

Except that every one COULD use a snipeing service (or do it by hand).

Everyone _could_ be an asshole and merge right at the point where "left
lane ends" too, but most people have the decency not to.

I do think the idea someone raised, of extending the auction by 15 min
if there are bids in the last few min to be a good one.

Yes, I'm the one who made that point.

I would modify it to be a single extension, of random but short
duration. But all either of them does, is equalize the chances of the
snipe services with the manual sniper. It still wont get the seller
more $ out of me.

Then stop bidding. Your choice.

In article , DoN. Nichols says...

1) I don't wind up with someone who isn't *sure* what it is worth to
them bumping my bid up a few dollars at a time until they find
my maximum or they finally decide that they don't want to spend
*that* much for it after all -- after pushing my bid to more
than I otherwise would have needed to pay.

2) I don't have the time to increment my own bid, if someone outbids
me, so I can't be *goaded* into bidding more than I had already
set as a maximum.

[3] Oh yes -- also it leaves me free to bid on another auction for
the same item. ...

And (4), it absolutely prevents shilling. Shilling only really works
when the seller bumps the bids during the auction. This sort of
nonsense does not work in the 'sealed bid' example of sniping.

Jim


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On 12 Jul 2005 06:43:54 -0700, wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes. ROFL all you want, but the reason you're doing it (hypothetically,
of course) is to get the item without them having a chance to outbid
you. Tell me I'm wrong. It's all about you doing it to them so they
can't do it to you. Do you deny that?

OK, you're wrong. They can outbid me instantly if they've placed a
proxy. Even if they haven't read eBay's recommendations on how to bid,
anyone with half a brain can figure it out after an auction or two.

And you contend that people make one proxy bid ever, and never up it? I
disagree. It's those people who you're outracing at the last second.

Dave Hinz wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:31:08 -0700, jk wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

O

Everyone does -not- have an equal chance. The snipers know damn well
taht the goal is to get in the last bid and not give others that chance
to still win the item.

Except that every one COULD use a snipeing service (or do it by hand).

Everyone _could_ be an asshole and merge right at the point where "left
lane ends" too, but most people have the decency not to.

I've been on more than one road where the sign said "Stay in lane until
merge point". (Eastern PA most often) Those are the rules Ebay has. You
don't like them (obviously), but that doesn't make them immoral or wrong.
(snip)