I have to admit I was pretty angry with John ("Shoot first and ask
questions later)" Martin for his judgemental
heckling, the ultimate effect of which was to interfere with the
genuine help I was getting in the thread "rack and pinion". But, after
considering the matter, I decided that he actually did me a favor by,
in effect, pointing out how fragile the support is that I can expect
from rec.crafts.metalworking.

I have been quite impressed by the depth and breadth of the combined
expertise of this newsgroup, and I remain so. I have been equally
impressed by the good will and congeniality here and by the high
level of commitment on this group to helping people at all levels
of competence, and that is still my feeling. But the simple fact is
that, in real life, I don't have any friends with whom I can get
together to discuss machine tools or who can show me things or who
can help me pick up the pieces after a disaster or who can tell me
whether conditions in my shop are safe. Nor are there any courses
available to me (I have looked!) that can make me more self-sufficient.
That being the case, I have no other source of advice about metalworking
than this newsgroup and the question is whether I can proceed with just
that support, given the many other severe constraints I am operating under,
many more than I have mentioned above.

Based on excellent advice I got from Don Nichols, I was on the verge of
ordering a Taig lathe and HarborFreight milling machine but now I have
decided to go with the HarborFreight Item 40102-3 VGA, "8 in 3 multipurpose
mini machine". Don correctly advised:
1/125th HP motors. If anything, perhaps weaker than the
Unimat-1, though it appears to be made of a bit more metal. same
restrictions -- "soft metals". I would skip this just as I would skip
the Unimat 1.

In my case, however, the following considerations are more important:

(1) It costs under $200, including with shipping and handling. That means
I'm not investing a lot in the experience, unlike with the Unimat 1,
which winds up costing almost $450 after all the extra costs are added,
or the combination of Taig lathe and HarborFreight mill, which cost
even more.
(2) Because it has such a puny motor, I am a lot less likely to hurt
myself using it.

Without a solid commitment to as much support as I actually need, which is
a lot more than I can reasonably ask of anyone, and which is a lot harder
to give by email and USENET than in person, I think this is the most sensible
way for me to proceed. After I'm more experienced, I'll consider getting more
powerful machines.

I won't post to or read this newsgroup again until I've built something,
however tiny or crappy.
--
Allan Adler
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and
* comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston.

Allan Adler wrote in
:


In my case, however, the following considerations are more important:

(1) It costs under $200, including with shipping and handling. That
means
I'm not investing a lot in the experience, unlike with the Unimat
1, which winds up costing almost $450 after all the extra costs
are added, or the combination of Taig lathe and HarborFreight
mill, which cost even more.
(2) Because it has such a puny motor, I am a lot less likely to hurt
myself using it.


I would disagree with (2) above. You are just as likely, if not more so,
to hurt yourself with an underpowered machine. A properly powered machine
is critical for allowing the proper speeds and feeds during machining.

If all you are machining is wax...or maybe some plastic..probably fine.
For metal...I dunno....



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Allan sez: "I won't post to or read this newsgroup again until I've built
something,
however tiny or crappy."

Allan,

Please don't go. I firmly believe most of the good people on RCM are still
available to help you. Just learn to disregard the occasional insulting
reply. Most respondents (well a lot of respondents, anyway) don't mean to
belittle you; its just that there is such a large number of repliers you
are bound to get one every now and then that is unable to respond on a level
that is acceptable to you. Some are probably irritable because maybe their
own questions haven't been answered on RCM. Still others must have their
egos boosted by tearing down someone else. Allan, remember one thing about
RCM. It is a microcosm of Life with all the foibles, pitfalls and
disappointments that are an inevitable part. Also, there is a lot of good
on RCM. As you have complemented Don Nichols for his helpful advice,
although you choose not to take that advice, there are others that are
equally eager to help. Give us a chance. Those that can help, will help.
Those that can't, may blow you off with an insulting reply - but in those
cases, remember *you* may have helped them by the ego boost they got by
tearing you down. Take nothing personally; take everything else with
skepticism, and as in Life the truth will eventually emerge.

Enjoy the little multipurpose "shop" you are getting from Harbor Freight. I
agree with others, it is not acceptable as any sort of metalworking tool.
But enjoy it anyway. You can learn almost as much from an inadequate tool
as you can from a good one; and, as you said, it may be safer. IMO, you
should get a copy of "Machining Fundamentals", by Turner. There is a wealth
of information in it.

Bob Swinney



"Allan Adler" wrote in message
...

I have to admit I was pretty angry with John ("Shoot first and ask
questions later)" Martin for his judgemental
heckling, the ultimate effect of which was to interfere with the
genuine help I was getting in the thread "rack and pinion". But, after
considering the matter, I decided that he actually did me a favor by,
in effect, pointing out how fragile the support is that I can expect
from rec.crafts.metalworking.

I have been quite impressed by the depth and breadth of the combined
expertise of this newsgroup, and I remain so. I have been equally
impressed by the good will and congeniality here and by the high
level of commitment on this group to helping people at all levels
of competence, and that is still my feeling. But the simple fact is
that, in real life, I don't have any friends with whom I can get
together to discuss machine tools or who can show me things or who
can help me pick up the pieces after a disaster or who can tell me
whether conditions in my shop are safe. Nor are there any courses
available to me (I have looked!) that can make me more self-sufficient.
That being the case, I have no other source of advice about metalworking
than this newsgroup and the question is whether I can proceed with just
that support, given the many other severe constraints I am operating
under,
many more than I have mentioned above.

Based on excellent advice I got from Don Nichols, I was on the verge of
ordering a Taig lathe and HarborFreight milling machine but now I have
decided to go with the HarborFreight Item 40102-3 VGA, "8 in 3
multipurpose
mini machine". Don correctly advised:
1/125th HP motors. If anything, perhaps weaker than the
Unimat-1, though it appears to be made of a bit more metal. same
restrictions -- "soft metals". I would skip this just as I would skip
the Unimat 1.

In my case, however, the following considerations are more important:

(1) It costs under $200, including with shipping and handling. That means
I'm not investing a lot in the experience, unlike with the Unimat 1,
which winds up costing almost $450 after all the extra costs are added,
or the combination of Taig lathe and HarborFreight mill, which cost
even more.
(2) Because it has such a puny motor, I am a lot less likely to hurt
myself using it.

Without a solid commitment to as much support as I actually need, which is
a lot more than I can reasonably ask of anyone, and which is a lot harder
to give by email and USENET than in person, I think this is the most
sensible
way for me to proceed. After I'm more experienced, I'll consider getting
more
powerful machines.

Allan Adler
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions
and
* comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near
Boston.

Please do not give up. I've sometimes found it useful to look at
the overall gestalt of what's said on this newsgroup. Take it all with
a grain of salt. Just because one person says something that nails you
a bit does not mean that everyone else feels the same way. Buy a
machine and buy some files too. Post, make chips, post.
Try to make it to the Cabin Fever show in January and attend a
seminar or two. Ask someone there where to start. Over time, I've come
to see some of the strangest and initially tough on this newsgroup as
also the most generous. Years ago, I noticed in college that if the
professor started the semester with an emotional group hug, you were in
deep trouble. If you started out with piles of work, you were in for a
great ride. Go figure.
Don't give up, go the distance.

Charles Morrill

I have to admit I was pretty angry with John ("Shoot first and ask
questions later)" Martin for his judgemental
heckling, the ultimate effect of which was to interfere with the
genuine help I was getting in the thread "rack and pinion". But, after
considering the matter, I decided that he actually did me a favor by,
in effect, pointing out how fragile the support is that I can expect
from rec.crafts.metalworking.

I have been quite impressed by the depth and breadth of the combined
expertise of this newsgroup, and I remain so. I have been equally
impressed by the good will and congeniality here and by the high
level of commitment on this group to helping people at all levels
of competence, and that is still my feeling. But the simple fact is
that, in real life, I don't have any friends with whom I can get
together to discuss machine tools or who can show me things or who
can help me pick up the pieces after a disaster or who can tell me
whether conditions in my shop are safe. Nor are there any courses
available to me (I have looked!) that can make me more self-sufficient.
That being the case, I have no other source of advice about metalworking
than this newsgroup and the question is whether I can proceed with just
that support, given the many other severe constraints I am operating under,
many more than I have mentioned above.



Shoot first and ask questions later? Shoot maybe, but only after I've observed
and identified my target pretty carefully. And I don't really recall asking
any questions of you.

I don't gladly suffer fools, Allan. Perhaps I should say foolishness, instead.
For I don't know you and don't want to brand you a fool. But I will say that
- in my opinion - many of your questions rank right up there with the most
foolish that I have ever seen. Someone once said that the most foolish question
is the one that is not asked, but he was not entirely correct.

You started with questions regarding a rack and pinion. Fine. But you then
wandered off into questions about how you could better examine the rack,
including building your own optical comparator, before you even took the very
good advice offered to you by several people - to clean the rack first.

After you had been warned about the problems with the Unimat, you told us you
had decided on one for your first lathe. You must be a lot smarter than the
people who warned you against it, because you stated "whatever its limitations
are, there must be a way to work with them". Of course, you also said that you
were at the same time trying to decide what your second lathe should be.

After you said that you didn't have a file, I suggested that you buy one and
learn how to use it. Was it intended to be snide? A bit. It was also a very
valid suggestion. You responded with paragraph upon paragraph as to how you
might structure a course to learn more about files, how much you should pay for
them, where you might obtain scrap metals to file, and so on. There are a
couple of ways that one could view your answer: as a sarcastic reply to a snide
suggestion, or as a serious plea for help. Frankly, I first took it as the
latter - because it resembled so closely the style of many of your previous
questions. So, apparently did at least one other person who attempted to
answer your questions. Now it appears that you meant it sarcastically. That's
fine - because as I already admitted, my suggestion was meant somewhat in the
same way.

But only somewhat. Because I still feel that someone who doesn't have a file
and yet is considering buying a lathe or milling machine is an idiot.

I feel as you do that this newsgroup is a valuable resource, and would only
suggest that you treat the others as the valuable resources that they are.
Think of it as a machine shop that you can walk into. A machine shop where the
machinists are busy with their own work, but are happy to help someone who is
eager to learn. But think, at the same time, what that machinist may say when,
after you have asked about a problem with a rack and pinion and he has given
you a good suggestion to simply clean it, you then tell him you would consider
building an optical comparator to better examine it. Or what he might say to
your proposal to make your own spotting compound, when commercial products are
available so cheaply. Or, after he has warned you about a particular tool,
that you think you can find a way to make it work.

I'm not trying to be an ogre or a net nanny. You are every bit as welcome here
as any of us, and I'd like to see you stay. That's up to you. I'd also
suggest, though, that you try harder to find some metalworking courses near
you, or some local hobbyists willing to help you in person. It's hard to
believe that there are no resources available to you. At the worst, though,
studying something, then doing it, making a mistake, and figuring out a way to
avoid or correct that mistake, is the way many of us have learned what we know.
The doing part is important.

John Martin

You would be light years ahead to buy any entry level lathe like a
South bend or equivalent than one of those cheesy little chinese
contraptions. Look at school acutions. ebay, industrial auctions ect.
Charlie

On 18 Dec 2004 21:14:18 -0800, "Bogone" wrote:

Total snip

This is going in exactly the same way that I've seen far too many
other threads go, personal opinions from those that won't "lower"
themselves to even try the smaller machines, but dont' hesitate to
offer advice that might not be acceptable to the person making the
purchase.

The original poster specifically said "SMALL lathe", and didn't
indicate any excess of room. Asking if there was room hasn't come
into anyone's mind, the only thing that did is the ever present
willingness to think you know all the answers without asking.

He indicated a budget, he didn't say "unlimited budget". SB lathes go
at acutions and the great American rip called ebay for prices that are
above what he indicated. Budget means budget, not maybe he'd like to
spend much more.

I don't have the machine in question, and without having first hand
experience with it, I'm not qualified to judge it. Nor is anyone else
that doesn't own one. I bought a HF 9 X 20 to find out if there was
any fact in the badmouth the machine gets, and there isn't any. I
didn't pay for a Hardinge, didn't get one, and didn't expect one.

If I try to push the machine beyond it's capability, then I'd have to
say that the operator is the idiot. If I tried to use it without
setting the gibs and removing the burrs, then the one that set it up
is the moron. I didn't pay for a Hardinge, and I expected to have to
do some work to make it run properly. I don't find that unreasonable.

the great American rip called ebay

In what way is eBay a rip? An auction is the fairest possible way to
establish a price for something, and eBay's fees are really quite cheap, far
less than the 10% buyer's premium that most live auctions impose...

I am serious in asking this, risking that you might just be a troll...

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:57:08 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:

the great American rip called ebay

In what way is eBay a rip? An auction is the fairest possible way to
establish a price for something, and eBay's fees are really quite cheap, far
less than the 10% buyer's premium that most live auctions impose...

I am serious in asking this, risking that you might just be a troll...

If it were a live auction, I might agree, but on ebay/payscam, you
have no way of knowing if you're bidding against a legitimate buyer or
the one that owns it and is just pumping up the price.

"Reserve prices", in a live auction, there is sometimes a minimum
opening bid, and it's announced. Ebay hides this, hoping for more
traffic.

The ebay toolbar is listed in SpyBot as one of the files to kill,
which probably means they're getting all kinds of information they
have no right to.

Horror stories about ebay are many, Harold has one, there has been one
on the soaring group, something about paying $18000 for a glider and
then finding that it was sold to someone else, before it ever came up
on the auction. Those are just two of many. Ebay will not back up
the buyer, or the victim as it usually is. Paypal, being part of
ebay, will do just as little, or less. You have to go to court to
fight it, cost that you should not have to incur, ebay should have to
pick those up. They don't.

A 10% fee to a legitimate auctioneer is not excessive, taking chances
on the internet with a brainfart called ebay is, at any fee.

"Feedback", crock of bull****, nobody leaves negative feedback on a
seller, because the seller has the option of scorching the buyer if
negative feedback is left. The "Great Ebay lie." 100 positive
feedbacks and no negatives mean only that you still don't know
anything about the seller, and they're usually rips anyhow.

"Antique" micrometers, hoping for huge prices for worn out junk, when
what they're advertising is a 30 year old Starrett 436P, that I can
buy a brand new one for less than they get for the junk. Rip by any
other word. As antique is normally taken to be 100+ years old, maybe
..01% of what ebay says is antique might be, but probably just old
junk.

GO down and look at the llist of completed items, many times old junk
goes for more than brand new would cost from a legitimate dealer. Rip
off.

Watch it, Greybeard! You just gored America's ox!

Bob Swinney
"Greybeard" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:57:08 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:

the great American rip called ebay

In what way is eBay a rip? An auction is the fairest possible way to
establish a price for something, and eBay's fees are really quite cheap,
far
less than the 10% buyer's premium that most live auctions impose...

I am serious in asking this, risking that you might just be a troll...

If it were a live auction, I might agree, but on ebay/payscam, you
have no way of knowing if you're bidding against a legitimate buyer or
the one that owns it and is just pumping up the price.

"Reserve prices", in a live auction, there is sometimes a minimum
opening bid, and it's announced. Ebay hides this, hoping for more
traffic.

The ebay toolbar is listed in SpyBot as one of the files to kill,
which probably means they're getting all kinds of information they
have no right to.

Horror stories about ebay are many, Harold has one, there has been one
on the soaring group, something about paying $18000 for a glider and
then finding that it was sold to someone else, before it ever came up
on the auction. Those are just two of many. Ebay will not back up
the buyer, or the victim as it usually is. Paypal, being part of
ebay, will do just as little, or less. You have to go to court to
fight it, cost that you should not have to incur, ebay should have to
pick those up. They don't.

A 10% fee to a legitimate auctioneer is not excessive, taking chances
on the internet with a brainfart called ebay is, at any fee.

"Feedback", crock of bull****, nobody leaves negative feedback on a
seller, because the seller has the option of scorching the buyer if
negative feedback is left. The "Great Ebay lie." 100 positive
feedbacks and no negatives mean only that you still don't know
anything about the seller, and they're usually rips anyhow.

"Antique" micrometers, hoping for huge prices for worn out junk, when
what they're advertising is a 30 year old Starrett 436P, that I can
buy a brand new one for less than they get for the junk. Rip by any
other word. As antique is normally taken to be 100+ years old, maybe
.01% of what ebay says is antique might be, but probably just old
junk.

GO down and look at the llist of completed items, many times old junk
goes for more than brand new would cost from a legitimate dealer. Rip
off.

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:48:34 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Watch it, Greybeard! You just gored America's ox!

It's not an ox, it's an ass.

You don't have to bid more than your willing to pay. The feedback thing
is a crock. I have purchased and sold lots of stuff on Ebay with only a
couple of bad experiences that didn't end with me getting ripped. True
you do have to know what you are buying. But before I plunked down a
measely 18k I would have flown out and looked at the piece of equipment
before I bid on it. I thingk the real flaw with ebay is that I beleive
a lot of the stuff is stolen merchandise.

Charlie

Greybeard wrote:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:57:08 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:

In what way is eBay a rip?

If it were a live auction, I might agree, but on ebay/payscam, you
have no way of knowing if you're bidding against a legitimate buyer or
the one that owns it and is just pumping up the price.

In a live auction you have no real way of knowing whether shill bidding is
going on either.

"Reserve prices", in a live auction, there is sometimes a minimum
opening bid, and it's announced. Ebay hides this, hoping for more
traffic.

I don't know about about opening bids (which seem fairly meaningless
afaict), in live auctions (at least here in the UK) sometimes the auctioneer
will say there is a reserve, but not what it is. Exactly the same as Ebay.

The ebay toolbar is listed in SpyBot as one of the files to kill,
which probably means they're getting all kinds of information they
have no right to.

It wouldn't surprise me.

Horror stories about ebay are many, Harold has one, there has been one
on the soaring group, something about paying $18000 for a glider and
then finding that it was sold to someone else, before it ever came up
on the auction. Those are just two of many. Ebay will not back up
the buyer, or the victim as it usually is. Paypal, being part of
ebay, will do just as little, or less. You have to go to court to
fight it, cost that you should not have to incur, ebay should have to
pick those up. They don't.

So I have heard.

"Feedback", crock of bull****, nobody leaves negative feedback on a
seller, because the seller has the option of scorching the buyer if
negative feedback is left.

How would they do that?

And why would the buyer care anyway? I buy stuff from Ebay, but Ebay don't
know my real name or address or anything. Sure they could find out, but it
would take a UK Court Order and/or many times more hassle and expense than
it would ever be worth - I am only buying stuff, not selling.

If I wanted to I could easily start a new unrelated Ebay ID - but I don't
care about my reputation as a buyer anyway, it doesn't do anything for me
(it's tens of feedbacks and 100% +ve, if anyone else cares).

I have left neutral feedback once, the goods were not as described, but I
think that was probably through ignorance rather than any attempt to
defraud. Strangely, I got a positive back. Never left a negative though,
never needed to.

"Antique" micrometers, hoping for huge prices for worn out junk, when
what they're advertising is a 30 year old Starrett 436P, that I can
buy a brand new one for less than they get for the junk. Rip by any
other word. As antique is normally taken to be 100+ years old, maybe
.01% of what ebay says is antique might be, but probably just old
junk.

GO down and look at the list of completed items, many times old junk
goes for more than brand new would cost from a legitimate dealer. Rip
off.

Yes.

Often Ebay prices for new goods are more than the equivalent shop prices
too, it isn't just overpriced for old stuff - in general Ebay prices are too
high. That's the real reason why I seldom use it now.

For instance, in the UK there are lots of ads for small bits of stock like
Item number: 3859577578 "NEW 1/2 INCH DIA. BRASS BAR 330mm" BuyItNow! price
£5.00 - but it is available on the web eg from College Engineering at
£1.57, and it's 90p from my local metal stockists.

However, the same Ebay guy sells Item number: 3859516486: 6" of 50 mm dia
PTFE for £15, which is a reasonable price if it's okay stuff. Go figure.



In my limited experience most sellers with reasonable feedback are "as least
as honest as they have to be", ie they won't seriously misrepresent the
goods (but caveat emptor!), and they will send the item(s).


And sometimes you can still get a bargain on Ebay, or something that's not
easily obtainable elsewhere - for instance earlier this year I bought some
Inconel at about 1/20th of what it might have cost elsewhere, as there are
no regular UK suppliers who sell small quantities at reasonable prices.


--
Peter Fairbrother

I don't find ebay a rip off particularly, especially when you're
looking for something hard to find. For example, I wanted a new
electrical switch for my Maximat V10-p and sure enough, after about a
year or so, one came up and I bought it for about $150. It's actually a
surprisingly complicated little piece of interlocking switches for
both the lathe spindle and the milling head. Since I've wanted to keep
the machine pretty much original, now I can. Lots of other cool Emco
accessories have come up over the past three years, but they've been a
little too expensive for my taste, but if I wanted them, I could easily
have had them.
This may have been false economy on my part, as the better-tooled
Maximats are selling on ebay for $3,500. I bet if I'd shelled out
$500 for the original toolpost grinder and $350 for the rotary table in
the past year, I might have been able to sell my whole setup for nearly
$5,000 and thus been able to parlay my meagre funds into Hardinge HLVH
territory.
I have found over the years that ebay really levels out the
playing field. There are almost no bargains, the market is too big and
too vast, but sometimes the market rules in interesting ways. For
example, I've followed Edison cylinder phonographs for years, and I'm
pretty sure that Ebay has caused the market value of the basic standard
and home machines to fall in value. Now there are a bunch to be had in
one place.
The reverse is true of Curta calculators (in some ways the
ultimate machine shop project!) Before ebay, you could still find them
in odd places for $50, now they're at least $1,000 or more.
As for shill bidding, I'm sure it does happen. Frankly, I don't
care because ultimately the market will rule. If the shill bids too
high, he won't sell his merchandise and relisting looks unattractive.
In selling, I've found it much better to put as much value as possible
into something I'm selling and then start the bidding off at one cent
or whatever's the lowest possible these days.
I think lots of people are ****ed at ebay because if you're into
Curta calculators or whatever, you run into about 10 others who are
just as interested.
I wonder sometimes about trying to corner a particular market.
Look at small metal shapers in good condition. You can just see the
prices rising, and there aren't too many terrific ones. What if you
invested $100,000 in buying every single one for two years. You simply
bid $2000 on every nice Atlas, Logan, and South Bend. Most bidding for
such machines peters out around $800 or $900 nowadays. Let's see, that
gives you a warehouse of 100 terrific shapers by 2007, by which time
the pent up demand is insane. You start to sell them at
Christmastime....bet you could double your money. With my luck though,
I'd probably go broke. Truth is, the number of potential shaper
customers like me is probably decreasing as the years go by due to
events beyond our immediate control...