On 11/6/2014 11:11 AM, dpb wrote:

snip

It's those secondary effects that are the only real benefits that is why
for ordinary application in passenger car/light trucks it's _way_
overkill in that there just won't be any discernible symptoms that it
cures that ordinary care and maintenance don't resolve, anyway.

That's the whole point of nitrogen. It cures, at least partially, the
symptoms that the lack of ordinary care and maintenance would otherwise
cause.

How many people do you EVER see checking their tire pressure these days?
They don't. If the TPMS light comes on they may take some action. Losing
even 1 PSI per month will trigger the TPMS after a few months. With
nitrogen that could take more than a year.

Costco includes nitrogen because of their own self interest. It reduces
warranty costs, both for road hazard and treadwear. It stops customers
from constantly coming back with TPMS warning lights on, saving labor costs.

On 11/6/2014 11:50 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Specially in cold weather region like where I live. I can see less
pressure fluctuation with N filled tires by monitoring with TPMS on the
dash. N is not snake oil at least for me.

Everyone agrees that nitrogen has definite advantages for passenger car
tires, the question is how much extra, if anything, is it worth? I would
never buy tires at a store that charged for nitrogen because if they
would rip off consumers for something that costs them almost nothing,
and has benefits to them as well, then they are not trustworthy.

On 11/6/2014 6:36 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/5/2014 9:12 PM, wrote:

'Buy our tires and get free nitrogen,' is a good sales pitch.

'Buy our tires, we'll put in nitrogen for ten bucks,' is ten bucks
too much.
Ten bucks too much for you. That's fine. On a $1000 purchace, what is
$10.00??? Or even on a $600.00 purchace.


If I spend $1000 for tires, the least you can do is give me the nitrogen
that cost you 50 cents to make.

Highly unlikely that the cost is 50¢, more like 10¢. And it's not free
to make dry air either. That's why I just would never buy tires at a
place that did not include nitrogen at no extra cost. If they'd rip off
customers for nitrogen then they are probably engaging in other rip offs
as well, like charging for valves or charging for road hazard coverage.

On 11/07/2014 9:44 AM, SMS wrote:
....

It isn't just the fact that it's nitrogen versus a mix that includes
nitrogen, there are other reasons for using nitrogen versus air as well.

The reason that Costco doesn't charge for nitrogen is not a marketing
ploy, the use of nitrogen reduces failures and Costco is one tire store
that actually honors its road hazard and tread life warranties. The cost
to them of including nitrogen is trivial given the benefits to them.

....

While it is true there's a slight difference in partial pressures owing
to water vapor versus dry air, for normal fluctuations in temperature I
can't think it's more than about a per cent or so, perhaps. (I haven't
sat down and done a calculation, but I'm positive it's nothing even
close to the difference between cold and hot running temp unless you're
looking at from midwinter to midsummer swings).

I really still have a very hard time believing there could be
demonstrated a real return for normal passenger tires solely due to N
vis a vis air--the effects of O2 on rubber causing damage or the like
just ain't gonna' be there for a tire that's being driven routinely.

Granted low pressure will increase early tread wearout, but again I
don't believe the difference in air pressure solely to N vs air is going
to prevent it if the owner/operator doesn't make the necessary
maintenance checks.

Plus, how many once they leave the store have a flat repaired elsewhere
or just refill w/ the corner station and the like so the N at best gets
diluted between new installs, anyway.

I just don't see it possibly being able to be enough of a factor to ever
really matter other than for the specialty cases.

For commercial airliners I can see it's desirable to not lose that full
partial pressure regardless of how small it is owing to the fact that
the water vapor will freeze at altitude, but for a passenger car tire,
no way...

$0.02, ymmv, im(ns)ho, etc., etc., etc., ...

--

"rbowman" wrote in message
...
Jeff Strickland wrote:

You have to go to
the tire store to have the tire and rim broken down, so they are the
venue
for putting the tube in and they will not do it.

I'll try to remember that the next time I'm mounting new tires on my bike.



Different tire. Absolutely no comparison after the part about rubber and
round.

I beg to differ. I recall listening to Don Cherry when he said that when hockey players never wore helmets or mouth guards everyone kept their sticks down and the puck on the ice because they knew that a stick or puck in the face or head was dangerous. Now that everyone wears helmets and is biting down on a mouth guard, the sticks and pucks are in the air, and people are getting seriously injured by high sticks and flying pucks.

We see exactly the same thing outside the hockey arena. When there was an electrical blackout in New York City about 10 years ago and the subways stopped running, everyone peacefully filed out of the subway system and walked home after work and there was no crime in New York City during that black out. That's because everyone realized that this was a potentially dangerous situation that could turn into anarchy and everyone had to help everyone else out to prevent that from happening. So, people restrained themselves to ensure the city didn't turn into a crime spree zone during the black out.

What I'm saying is that if people are aware of a common danger that threatens everyone, they will co-operate to protect themselves and each other from that danger. If people know that ordinary air is more prone to seep out of their tires, they'll be more diligent about monitoring the air pressure in their tires, just as hockey players that aren't wearing helmets co-operate in keeping their sticks and pucks down for the benefit of everyone.

It's the psychology of the situation that dictates that people that are aware of a potential problem will monitor that situation more diligently than if they are less concerned about that problem.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
On 11/5/2014 6:50 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:


The idea is that a molecule of nitrogen is larger, therefore it will
seep out slower. Let's assume this is true, is it worth money to
forestall putting more air into the tires someday? There's NOTHING WRONG
with nitrogen, the problem is paying for it.


It's been a few decades, but nitrogen
atomic weight 14, oxygen is 16.

-



Probably has not changed, but with global warming there are no guaranties.

On 11/7/2014 8:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 7, 2014 10:57:13 AM UTC-5, SMS wrote:
On 11/5/2014 2:53 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:

No, nitrogen is snake oil. The air we breathe is already something like
80% nitrogen.

You do not understand the difference between dry nitrogen and the air we
breathe.

What you should be saying is this "a tire shop fills your tires with air
from a compressor that has a dryer attached to it. The drier removes
much of the moisture from the air."

Costco likely calculated that the cost of compressor dryers, in terms of
energy and maintenance, increased tire warranty repair costs, and labor
costs dealing with customers coming in with TPMS issues, made including
nitrogen at no extra cost a good idea financially.

Tire stores have nitrogen generators they don't get nitrogen deliveries.
The incremental cost of nitrogen to the tire store once they purchase
the machine is trivial, membrane and filter replacement only.

The bottom line is "don't pay extra for nitrogen and don't buy tires at
any store that does not include nitrogen at no extra charge."

When you have a study or any actual data at all that shows what you clain,
ie nitrogen gives you less warranty claims, longer treadlife, etc, I'm
sure we'd all be happy to see it.

Think logically. According to tire manufacturers, the pressure loss,
over time, is six times as fast with plain air versus nitrogen. Low tire
pressure causes uneven tread wear and increases failures covered by road
hazard warranties. Low tire pressure also causes the TPMS warning system
to activate which causes return visits to the tire store to have the
issue resolved (at an expected cost of $0). The LAST thing any store
wants is for customers to return for warranty service. Anything you can
do to reduce the likelihood of this occurring is worthwhile, and when it
costs you essentially nothing it's a no-brainer.

Most Costco members are not going to buy tires anywhere else because
it's highly unlikely to ever find better prices when you include
everything, even without free nitrogen. Most tire stores charge extra
for valves and road hazard, plus they have much higher charges for
mounting and balancing. It'd be rare for another store to be with $100
of Costco's price, plus now Costco will order tires for you if you don't
like the ones that they have in stock.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 15:50:44 -0800, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Strickland" wrote in message
...

DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR NITROGEN. This is snake oil for tires. It might
work
as
claimed, but the air we breathe already is full of nitrogen. My only
point
is, do not pay an upcharge for nitrogen. If they do it for free, then
do
not
refuse. But do not pay extra.




Up to $2.50 per tire extra for nitrogen fill can be rationalized. Any
more is highway robbery.


No, nitrogen is snake oil. The air we breathe is already something like
80% nitrogen. You can do a search, but paying a tire shop for nitrogen
is
a waste of money, $10.00 using your threshold.


With the air in the tire already 80% nitrogen and the outside of all
tires
has the same mix of 80 % nitrogen and 20% oxygen (with a trace of other
elements) what good does the all nitrogen do ? Especially if the car
is
not driven enough to heat up the tires.




The idea is that a molecule of nitrogen is larger, therefore it will seep
out slower. Let's assume this is true, is it worth money to forestall
putting more air into the tires someday? There's NOTHING WRONG with
nitrogen, the problem is paying for it.

'Buy our tires and get free nitrogen,' is a good sales pitch.

'Buy our tires, we'll put in nitrogen for ten bucks,' is ten bucks too
much.
Ten bucks too much for you. That's fine. On a $1000 purchace, what is
$10.00??? Or even on a $600.00 purchace.


Ten bucks it ten bucks. I'd rather pay it at Starbucks than buying air for
my tires.

Nitrogen is snake oil, one. It's already in the air, two.

Pay for it if you want, but you might as well light your money on fire.

On Friday, November 7, 2014 11:25:51 AM UTC-5, SMS wrote:
On 11/6/2014 11:11 AM, dpb wrote:

snip

It's those secondary effects that are the only real benefits that is why
for ordinary application in passenger car/light trucks it's _way_
overkill in that there just won't be any discernible symptoms that it
cures that ordinary care and maintenance don't resolve, anyway.

That's the whole point of nitrogen. It cures, at least partially, the
symptoms that the lack of ordinary care and maintenance would otherwise
cause.

How many people do you EVER see checking their tire pressure these days?
They don't. If the TPMS light comes on they may take some action. Losing
even 1 PSI per month will trigger the TPMS after a few months. With
nitrogen that could take more than a year.


You have proof of that in some studies?



Costco includes nitrogen because of their own self interest. It reduces
warranty costs, both for road hazard and treadwear. It stops customers
from constantly coming back with TPMS warning lights on, saving labor costs.

You have proof of that too? I'm taking bets that you don't.

"SMS" wrote in message
...
On 11/5/2014 10:24 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:

snip

DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR NITROGEN. This is snake oil for tires. It might
work as claimed, but the air we breathe already is full of nitrogen. My
only point is, do not pay an upcharge for nitrogen. If they do it for
free, then do not refuse. But do not pay extra.

It isn't just the fact that it's nitrogen versus a mix that includes
nitrogen, there are other reasons for using nitrogen versus air as well.

The reason that Costco doesn't charge for nitrogen is not a marketing
ploy, the use of nitrogen reduces failures and Costco is one tire store
that actually honors its road hazard and tread life warranties. The cost
to them of including nitrogen is trivial given the benefits to them.

If you have a source of pure dry air for your tires, and check the
pressure often, and adjust for temperature changes, then plain air is just
fine. Tire stores will have driers on their compressors to remove some
moisture from air but it's not as moisture free as nitrogen.

But you're right, paying extra for nitrogen versus dry air isn't worth it
since most tire stores charge at least $5 per tire for it. And of course
you can always go to Costco and add nitrogen to your tires for free. They
have a hose there near the entrance to one of the bays.

One issue that comes up more and more is very sensitive TPMS systems. If
you're right at either edge (high or low) then pressure changes due to
tempearature will activate the TPMS warning light. Dry nitrogen has less
pressure changes due to temperature than moist air.

One other thing, is if you have a TPMS sensor fail (flashing TPMS warning
light at start-up) Costco does replacements at a cost far less than the
dealer. The batteries in the factory sensors fail at about 7 years. I just
had them replace one last month. The next time I get new tires I'll have
them replace the other three since they are all going to fail within a
year and if they change them while they are doing mounting and balancing
there's no additional labor charge.



FOR THE RECORD
I amnot against nitrogen. Nitorgen is good. It's not worth paying for. If
the store wants to give it away, then buy your tires there. But if the tire
store wants an other ten bucks or more, then pass.

Nitrogen is going to seep out and you will go to the gas station and use the
machine to refill your tires, and this will dilute the nitrogen. After you
put air into the tires a few times, you will have the same concentration of
nitrogen that already exists in free air.

ALL I AM SAYING IS, DO NOT PAY FOR NITROGEN, and give peace a chance...

On 11/07/2014 10:25 AM, SMS wrote:
On 11/6/2014 11:11 AM, dpb wrote:

snip

It's those secondary effects that are the only real benefits that is why
for ordinary application in passenger car/light trucks it's _way_
overkill in that there just won't be any discernible symptoms that it
cures that ordinary care and maintenance don't resolve, anyway.

That's the whole point of nitrogen. It cures, at least partially, the
symptoms that the lack of ordinary care and maintenance would otherwise
cause.

How many people do you EVER see checking their tire pressure these days?
They don't. If the TPMS light comes on they may take some action. Losing
even 1 PSI per month will trigger the TPMS after a few months. With
nitrogen that could take more than a year.

Costco includes nitrogen because of their own self interest. It reduces
warranty costs, both for road hazard and treadwear. It stops customers
from constantly coming back with TPMS warning lights on, saving labor
costs.

As noted above, I'd have to see data that proves they can tell a
difference--just color me skeptical at best that it really makes a
discernible difference that can be solely attributed to N.

--

On 11/07/2014 9:58 AM, SMS wrote:
On 11/5/2014 3:11 PM, dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2014 4:25 PM, wrote:
...

Up to $2.50 per tire extra for nitrogen fill can be rationalized. Any
more is highway robbery.

"Rationalized" on basis of dealer cost, maybe, but I can't see there's
anything close to the payback possible for an ordinary passenger car
tire on an automobile driven routinely.

What minimal advantages there are really only accrue for extremely long
intervals between changes such as collector or antique vehicles or very
specialized applications such as racing or hazard duty where the
flammability in accident might conceivably be an added risk.

Otherwise, just nothing that it does is sufficient to make any
discernible difference in the bottom line to the end user.

Not true. There is a discernible advantage, but not one that is worth
paying anything extra for. Just never buy tires at a retailer that does
not include nitrogen inflation at no extra charge.

Nonsense.

There is no such place in the county here, even, what more town. I
doubt there's a place within 300 miles (well, _perhaps_ there's a Costco
in Amarillo; I don't know--that'd be just under 200; there's _not_ one
in Wichita so KC and Denver would be the two closest places I'd be sure
of for them. I've never seen any other tire distributor/retailer around
here offer it gratis.

Plus, living on rural dirt roads where flats are a routine occurrence
it'd raise the cost of a flat repair by ridiculous amount. One of the
major distributors/retailer here in town did begin touting it a few
years ago but have given it up as just not worth the hassle; afaik none
of the others ever bothered. I've not heard Clingan's run the ad about
it in since forever it seems...

--

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 08:31:36 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 11/6/2014 6:36 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/5/2014 9:12 PM, wrote:

'Buy our tires and get free nitrogen,' is a good sales pitch.

'Buy our tires, we'll put in nitrogen for ten bucks,' is ten bucks
too much.
Ten bucks too much for you. That's fine. On a $1000 purchace, what is
$10.00??? Or even on a $600.00 purchace.


If I spend $1000 for tires, the least you can do is give me the nitrogen
that cost you 50 cents to make.

Highly unlikely that the cost is 50¢, more like 10¢. And it's not free
to make dry air either. That's why I just would never buy tires at a
place that did not include nitrogen at no extra cost. If they'd rip off
customers for nitrogen then they are probably engaging in other rip offs
as well, like charging for valves or charging for road hazard coverage.
And you think valve stems and road hazard insurance are free????
Obvious you've never been in the automotive service or tire business!!

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 08:07:39 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 11/5/2014 6:12 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 15:50:44 -0800, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:

'Buy our tires, we'll put in nitrogen for ten bucks,' is ten bucks too much.
Ten bucks too much for you. That's fine. On a $1000 purchace, what is
$10.00??? Or even on a $600.00 purchace.

It's the principle. The tire store accrues a benefit from using nitrogen
and the cost to them is trivial. Just don't buy tires at any store that
charges for nitrogen.
Go into the tire business and see if you can make a living.

On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 08:55:11 -0800, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 15:50:44 -0800, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Strickland" wrote in message
...

DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR NITROGEN. This is snake oil for tires. It might
work
as
claimed, but the air we breathe already is full of nitrogen. My only
point
is, do not pay an upcharge for nitrogen. If they do it for free, then
do
not
refuse. But do not pay extra.




Up to $2.50 per tire extra for nitrogen fill can be rationalized. Any
more is highway robbery.


No, nitrogen is snake oil. The air we breathe is already something like
80% nitrogen. You can do a search, but paying a tire shop for nitrogen
is
a waste of money, $10.00 using your threshold.


With the air in the tire already 80% nitrogen and the outside of all
tires
has the same mix of 80 % nitrogen and 20% oxygen (with a trace of other
elements) what good does the all nitrogen do ? Especially if the car
is
not driven enough to heat up the tires.




The idea is that a molecule of nitrogen is larger, therefore it will seep
out slower. Let's assume this is true, is it worth money to forestall
putting more air into the tires someday? There's NOTHING WRONG with
nitrogen, the problem is paying for it.

'Buy our tires and get free nitrogen,' is a good sales pitch.

'Buy our tires, we'll put in nitrogen for ten bucks,' is ten bucks too
much.
Ten bucks too much for you. That's fine. On a $1000 purchace, what is
$10.00??? Or even on a $600.00 purchace.


Ten bucks it ten bucks. I'd rather pay it at Starbucks than buying air for
my tires.

Nitrogen is snake oil, one. It's already in the air, two.

Pay for it if you want, but you might as well light your money on fire.


Says the guy who will pay $10 to "rent" a cup of coffee for an hour or
so, then P!$$ it down the drain!!

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 08:04:51 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 11/5/2014 3:33 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Jeff Strickland" wrote in message
...

DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR NITROGEN. This is snake oil for tires. It might
work
as
claimed, but the air we breathe already is full of nitrogen. My only
point
is, do not pay an upcharge for nitrogen. If they do it for free, then do
not
refuse. But do not pay extra.




Up to $2.50 per tire extra for nitrogen fill can be rationalized. Any
more is highway robbery.


No, nitrogen is snake oil. The air we breathe is already something like
80% nitrogen. You can do a search, but paying a tire shop for nitrogen is
a waste of money, $10.00 using your threshold.


With the air in the tire already 80% nitrogen and the outside of all tires
has the same mix of 80 % nitrogen and 20% oxygen (with a trace of other
elements) what good does the all nitrogen do ? Especially if the car is
not driven enough to heat up the tires.

Yeah, if you only drive a mile or two between long periods of non-use,
the tires won't heat up.

But as has been explained repeatedly, there are definite benefits to
nitrogen to passenger car tires, but it's probably not worth paying
extra for provided the tire dealer has good dryers on their compressors.

The benefit accrues more to the tire dealer, even when they are
including the nitrogen at no extra cost (and the reality is that it
costs them only pennies per tire to have a nitrogen generator). The
benefits to the tire dealer are the following:

Fewer warranty repairs
Fewer tread life warranty claims
Fewer TPMS issues by customers


If indeed these benefits to the dealer do exist, then it is "quite
obvious" there is a benefit to the owner as well - which over the life
of the tires is "definitely" worth $10.
Remember, the average driver isn't out there checking their tire
pressure once a month or once a week, or ever. Minimizing pressure loss
and pressure changes due to temperature, is a big plus.

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 07:57:09 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 11/5/2014 2:53 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:

No, nitrogen is snake oil. The air we breathe is already something like
80% nitrogen.

You do not understand the difference between dry nitrogen and the air we
breathe.

What you should be saying is this "a tire shop fills your tires with air
from a compressor that has a dryer attached to it. The drier removes
much of the moisture from the air."

And the real truth of the matter is MOST tire shops either do not have
a drier or do not maintain it faithfully - so you are not getting
"dry" air.

Costco likely calculated that the cost of compressor dryers, in terms of
energy and maintenance, increased tire warranty repair costs, and labor
costs dealing with customers coming in with TPMS issues, made including
nitrogen at no extra cost a good idea financially.

Tire stores have nitrogen generators they don't get nitrogen deliveries.
The incremental cost of nitrogen to the tire store once they purchase
the machine is trivial, membrane and filter replacement only.

And who pays for the quite substantial cost of the machine in the
first place??
The bottom line is "don't pay extra for nitrogen and don't buy tires at
any store that does not include nitrogen at no extra charge."
The bottom line is you can be cheap if you want. Doesn't mean other
tire buyers have to follow your lead.

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 07:58:43 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 11/5/2014 3:11 PM, dpb wrote:
On 11/05/2014 4:25 PM, wrote:
...

Up to $2.50 per tire extra for nitrogen fill can be rationalized. Any
more is highway robbery.

"Rationalized" on basis of dealer cost, maybe, but I can't see there's
anything close to the payback possible for an ordinary passenger car
tire on an automobile driven routinely.

What minimal advantages there are really only accrue for extremely long
intervals between changes such as collector or antique vehicles or very
specialized applications such as racing or hazard duty where the
flammability in accident might conceivably be an added risk.

Otherwise, just nothing that it does is sufficient to make any
discernible difference in the bottom line to the end user.

Not true. There is a discernible advantage, but not one that is worth
paying anything extra for. Just never buy tires at a retailer that does
not include nitrogen inflation at no extra charge.
So all "discernable advantages" should be paid for by someone else
and provided to you for free?? Sounds a little bitopportunistic anda
lot like a bad case of "entitlement"

On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 09:00:40 -0800, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:


"SMS" wrote in message
.. .
On 11/5/2014 10:24 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:

snip

DO NOT PAY EXTRA FOR NITROGEN. This is snake oil for tires. It might
work as claimed, but the air we breathe already is full of nitrogen. My
only point is, do not pay an upcharge for nitrogen. If they do it for
free, then do not refuse. But do not pay extra.

It isn't just the fact that it's nitrogen versus a mix that includes
nitrogen, there are other reasons for using nitrogen versus air as well.

The reason that Costco doesn't charge for nitrogen is not a marketing
ploy, the use of nitrogen reduces failures and Costco is one tire store
that actually honors its road hazard and tread life warranties. The cost
to them of including nitrogen is trivial given the benefits to them.

If you have a source of pure dry air for your tires, and check the
pressure often, and adjust for temperature changes, then plain air is just
fine. Tire stores will have driers on their compressors to remove some
moisture from air but it's not as moisture free as nitrogen.

But you're right, paying extra for nitrogen versus dry air isn't worth it
since most tire stores charge at least $5 per tire for it. And of course
you can always go to Costco and add nitrogen to your tires for free. They
have a hose there near the entrance to one of the bays.

One issue that comes up more and more is very sensitive TPMS systems. If
you're right at either edge (high or low) then pressure changes due to
tempearature will activate the TPMS warning light. Dry nitrogen has less
pressure changes due to temperature than moist air.

One other thing, is if you have a TPMS sensor fail (flashing TPMS warning
light at start-up) Costco does replacements at a cost far less than the
dealer. The batteries in the factory sensors fail at about 7 years. I just
had them replace one last month. The next time I get new tires I'll have
them replace the other three since they are all going to fail within a
year and if they change them while they are doing mounting and balancing
there's no additional labor charge.



FOR THE RECORD
I amnot against nitrogen. Nitorgen is good. It's not worth paying for. If
the store wants to give it away, then buy your tires there. But if the tire
store wants an other ten bucks or more, then pass.

Nitrogen is going to seep out and you will go to the gas station and use the
machine to refill your tires, and this will dilute the nitrogen. After you
put air into the tires a few times, you will have the same concentration of
nitrogen that already exists in free air.

ALL I AM SAYING IS, DO NOT PAY FOR NITROGEN, and give peace a chance...


If you lose 10% of your nitrogen and replace it with air, the tire
now has 2% non nitrogen , compared to 20% if initially filled with
nitrogen.

"SMS" wrote in message
...
One other thing, is if you have a TPMS sensor fail (flashing TPMS
warning light at start-up) Costco does replacements at a cost far less
than the dealer. The batteries in the factory sensors fail at about 7
years. I just had them replace one last month. The next time I get new
tires I'll have them replace the other three since they are all going to
fail within a year and if they change them while they are doing mounting
and balancing there's no additional labor charge.

I have a 2007 and 2008 and the TPMS have failed on both of them. I have no
intention of getting them replaced. I think I was quoted a proce of about $
60 to $ 80 for each wheel. That is getting close to the price of a tire.

The 2007 has about 55,000 miles on it and the 2008 has about 25, 000 on it.
I hae replaced the factory tires on both of them with some 80,000 mile
tires. I should trade by the time I need tires again.



---
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http://www.avast.com

On 11/7/2014 8:59 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 7, 2014 11:25:51 AM UTC-5, SMS wrote:
On 11/6/2014 11:11 AM, dpb wrote:

snip

It's those secondary effects that are the only real benefits that is why
for ordinary application in passenger car/light trucks it's _way_
overkill in that there just won't be any discernible symptoms that it
cures that ordinary care and maintenance don't resolve, anyway.

That's the whole point of nitrogen. It cures, at least partially, the
symptoms that the lack of ordinary care and maintenance would otherwise
cause.

How many people do you EVER see checking their tire pressure these days?
They don't. If the TPMS light comes on they may take some action. Losing
even 1 PSI per month will trigger the TPMS after a few months. With
nitrogen that could take more than a year.


You have proof of that in some studies?



Costco includes nitrogen because of their own self interest. It reduces
warranty costs, both for road hazard and treadwear. It stops customers
from constantly coming back with TPMS warning lights on, saving labor costs.

You have proof of that too? I'm taking bets that you don't.

At some point you're going to have to use some common sense and stop
with the schtick of demanding studies that you know that no one has ever
done.

On 11/7/2014 9:55 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"SMS" wrote in message
...
One other thing, is if you have a TPMS sensor fail (flashing TPMS
warning light at start-up) Costco does replacements at a cost far less
than the dealer. The batteries in the factory sensors fail at about 7
years. I just had them replace one last month. The next time I get new
tires I'll have them replace the other three since they are all going to
fail within a year and if they change them while they are doing mounting
and balancing there's no additional labor charge.

I have a 2007 and 2008 and the TPMS have failed on both of them. I have no
intention of getting them replaced. I think I was quoted a proce of about $
60 to $ 80 for each wheel. That is getting close to the price of a tire.

What does the price of a TPMS sensor have to do with the price of a
tire? The two are unrelated.

Costco charged about $45 for the sensor. Installation was $15 because
they had to essentially do a mount and balance. So since the vehicle
with the faulty sensor is about eight years old (2007) I will change the
other sensors at the next tire replacement.

I like the TPMS on cars where the driver is unlikely to ever check the
tire pressure. Sensors are going to be used in increasing number on
vehicles and machinery for faults and to indicate when maintenance is
actually necessary (versus the present system of basing maintenance
mainly on time or miles).

On 11/07/2014 11:55 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
One other thing, is if you have a TPMS sensor fail (flashing TPMS
warning light at start-up) Costco does replacements at a cost far less
than the dealer. The batteries in the factory sensors fail at about 7
years. I just had them replace one last month. The next time I get new
tires I'll have them replace the other three since they are all going to
fail within a year and if they change them while they are doing mounting
and balancing there's no additional labor charge.

I have a 2007 and 2008 and the TPMS have failed on both of them. I have no
intention of getting them replaced. I think I was quoted a proce of about $
60 to $ 80 for each wheel. That is getting close to the price of a tire.

The 2007 has about 55,000 miles on it and the 2008 has about 25, 000 on it.
I hae replaced the factory tires on both of them with some 80,000 mile
tires. I should trade by the time I need tires again.
....

Over the years I've had at least four vehicles can remember had TPMS
systems and have yet to have the first failure. The last Le Sabre was
over 10 yo and 180k miles when it went. I don't recall the previous
one's age (it was folk's when we came back so didn't have quite the
direct connection for total recall). The so-equipped two vehicles
presently are '10 and '11 so they're still almost brand new by my
counting scheme...

--

On 11/07/2014 12:07 PM, SMS wrote:
....

At some point you're going to have to use some common sense and stop
with the schtick of demanding studies that you know that no one has ever
done.

Done if you'll quit claiming tangible and measurable benefits that can't
be shown to be accruable to the purported causative factor w/o such...

--

On 11/7/2014 8:52 AM, nestork wrote:

What I'm saying is that if people are aware of a common danger that
threatens everyone, they will co-operate to protect themselves and each
other from that danger. If people know that ordinary air is more prone
to seep out of their tires, they'll be more diligent about monitoring
the air pressure in their tiresridiculous hockey player analogy removed to avoid further embarrassment
to you.

Long before nitrogen was being used for passenger car tires people were
not diligent about monitoring the air pressure in their tires. You're
not going to fix that by intentionally filling tires with a gas that
leaks out more quickly.

TPMS systems were mandated because so many vehicles were on the road
with tire pressure that was way too low. There are multiple benefits to
proper tire pressure including safety, fuel economy, and tire wear.

Here are the real questions to ask:

1. Does maintaining proper tire pressure increase mileage, increase
tread life, reduce the likelihood of a blowout, and reduce the
likelihood of damage from road hazards?

2. Is it true that a high percentage of drivers never check their tire
pressure with a gauge or have a service station check their tire pressure?

3. Given the upsides of nitrogen, which include less pressure loss over
time, should tire retailers fill new tires with nitrogen?

4. Should consumers avoid any tire retailer that charges rip-off prices
for nitrogen? More than $1 per tire is a ripoff.

5. Should consumers purchase tires at retailers that include nitrogen
fill at no extra cost?

The answer to all of these question is yes.

The argument that a consumer could just as easy check his tire pressure
more often and top up the air is bogus because most consumers won't ever
do that even though we all agree it would be better if they did. You're
not going to fix this.

The ridiculous and overused Usenet retort of "show me a double-blind
study that absolutely proves that nitrogen is better than plain air"
fails the common sense test because that's not even the actual question.
The actual question is this: "is there a benefit to filling tires with a
gas that helps maintain proper tire pressure for a longer period of time?"

Finally, there's another benefit to the whole nitrogen-fill thing. If
you find a tire dealer that's trying to charge more than $1 per tire for
nitrogen then that's an excellent indication they you're at a store
that's going to rip you off in other ways in the future--run away.

On 11/07/2014 12:59 PM, SMS wrote:
....

The ridiculous and overused Usenet retort of "show me a double-blind
study that absolutely proves that nitrogen is better than plain air"
fails the common sense test because that's not even the actual question.
The actual question is this: "is there a benefit to filling tires with a
gas that helps maintain proper tire pressure for a longer period of time?"
....
On 11/07/2014 12:59 PM, SMS wrote:
....

The ridiculous and overused Usenet retort of "show me a double-blind
study that absolutely proves that nitrogen is better than plain air"
fails the common sense test because that's not even the actual question.
The actual question is this: "is there a benefit to filling tires with a
gas that helps maintain proper tire pressure for a longer period of
time?"
....

That was _not_ the question raised here (at least by me). The question
here is whether there's sufficient evidence that N will, on its own,
actually accrue those benefits to the average consumer in absence of any
other change in behavior to a magnitude to be observable in a net return
on the bottom line. My contention is "not demonstrable".

I don't deny (and haven't) there is a physical basis behind using N; I
just don't believe it's a significant-enough effect for passenger car
tires and the ilk to be of any real value. I'm willing to be shown data
that actually can demonstrate it's so but I think the incremental change
is so small it would be essentially impossible to separate it from the
noise level.

Commercial/military aircraft, specialty applications such as racing,
maybe even restoration/vintage vehicles and the like are something else
again.

--

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:12:51 -0800, SMS
wrote:



I like the TPMS on cars where the driver is unlikely to ever check the
tire pressure.

Is that your car? I don't have TPMS on my car, but I keep a tire
gauge in my glovebox, and occasionally check all tires.
If leakage is excessive I get it fixed. That seldom happens.
If I had TPMS and it worked, I would do the same, less the check.
I haven't had trouble with tire wear.

Sensors are going to be used in increasing number on
vehicles and machinery for faults and to indicate when maintenance is
actually necessary (versus the present system of basing maintenance
mainly on time or miles).

Oil change is the only one on my car. What others are available?
I don't understand this sudden interest in nitrogen.
Tire Rack says:
"Overall, inflating tires with nitrogen won't hurt them and may
provide some minimal benefits."
"Rather than pay extra for nitrogen, most drivers would be better off
buying an accurate tire pressure gauge and checking and adjusting
their tire pressures regularly."

Doubt I'll ever put nitrogen in my tires.
None of the "minimal benefits" even apply to me, or most drivers.
But if it's free I won't turn it down.

On 11/7/2014 11:24 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:12:51 -0800, SMS
wrote:



I like the TPMS on cars where the driver is unlikely to ever check the
tire pressure.

Is that your car? I don't have TPMS on my car, but I keep a tire
gauge in my glovebox, and occasionally check all tires.
If leakage is excessive I get it fixed. That seldom happens.
If I had TPMS and it worked, I would do the same, less the check.
I haven't had trouble with tire wear.

I have tire gauges in all of our cars (4). Two have TPMS, two don't. But
I'm in my fifties. I grew up doing car maintenance and repairs. That's
no longer the norm. Most people want to minimize recurring maintenance
tasks on stuff they own.

"Rather than pay extra for nitrogen, most drivers would be better off
buying an accurate tire pressure gauge and checking and adjusting
their tire pressures regularly."

Yes, that's true. But first of all, you should not have to pay extra for
nitrogen because the cost of providing it is trivial. Second of all,
just because most drivers should buy an accurate tire gauge and keep
their tires properly inflated does not mean that most drivers will do this.

Doubt I'll ever put nitrogen in my tires.
None of the "minimal benefits" even apply to me, or most drivers.
But if it's free I won't turn it down.

I would not pay extra for it. But I have not bought tires anyplace but
Costco for a very long time since it would be very rare for the
out-the-door price to ever be more at another tire retailer than at
Costco. Only if I wanted some specialty tires would I go elsewhere. Tire
Rack is good concept but their partners that do mounting and balancing
are very expensive.

On Friday, November 7, 2014 1:07:11 PM UTC-5, SMS wrote:
On 11/7/2014 8:59 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 7, 2014 11:25:51 AM UTC-5, SMS wrote:
On 11/6/2014 11:11 AM, dpb wrote:

snip

It's those secondary effects that are the only real benefits that is why
for ordinary application in passenger car/light trucks it's _way_
overkill in that there just won't be any discernible symptoms that it
cures that ordinary care and maintenance don't resolve, anyway.

That's the whole point of nitrogen. It cures, at least partially, the
symptoms that the lack of ordinary care and maintenance would otherwise
cause.

How many people do you EVER see checking their tire pressure these days?
They don't. If the TPMS light comes on they may take some action. Losing
even 1 PSI per month will trigger the TPMS after a few months. With
nitrogen that could take more than a year.


You have proof of that in some studies?



Costco includes nitrogen because of their own self interest. It reduces
warranty costs, both for road hazard and treadwear. It stops customers
from constantly coming back with TPMS warning lights on, saving labor costs.

You have proof of that too? I'm taking bets that you don't.

At some point you're going to have to use some common sense and stop
with the schtick of demanding studies that you know that no one has ever
done.

At some point you're going to have to use some common sense and realize
that claiming that putting nitrogen in tires reduces warranty claims,
extends tread life, reducing customers coming back, is just BS if it's
based on nothing. Common sense to me says it's BS. If you claim otherwise,
it's up to you to prove it. And I say the claims you're making are
extraordinary. If it's true, it should be easy.

On Friday, November 7, 2014 11:54:22 AM UTC-5, SMS wrote:
On 11/7/2014 8:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, November 7, 2014 10:57:13 AM UTC-5, SMS wrote:
On 11/5/2014 2:53 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:

No, nitrogen is snake oil. The air we breathe is already something like
80% nitrogen.

You do not understand the difference between dry nitrogen and the air we
breathe.

What you should be saying is this "a tire shop fills your tires with air
from a compressor that has a dryer attached to it. The drier removes
much of the moisture from the air."

Costco likely calculated that the cost of compressor dryers, in terms of
energy and maintenance, increased tire warranty repair costs, and labor
costs dealing with customers coming in with TPMS issues, made including
nitrogen at no extra cost a good idea financially.

Tire stores have nitrogen generators they don't get nitrogen deliveries.
The incremental cost of nitrogen to the tire store once they purchase
the machine is trivial, membrane and filter replacement only.

The bottom line is "don't pay extra for nitrogen and don't buy tires at
any store that does not include nitrogen at no extra charge."

When you have a study or any actual data at all that shows what you clain,
ie nitrogen gives you less warranty claims, longer treadlife, etc, I'm
sure we'd all be happy to see it.

Think logically. According to tire manufacturers, the pressure loss,
over time, is six times as fast with plain air versus nitrogen.

Link please. Here's what Michelin has to say on the subject:

Nitrogen Versus Compressed Air

"Most tires are filled with compressed air. But some tire retailers have started to put nitrogen into their customers' tires. (Nitrogen is simply dry air with the oxygen removed. Air contains nearly 79% nitrogen already.) Because nitrogen replaces oxygen, less air can escape your tires, and your inflation pressure stays higher longer. Unfortunately, there are other possible sources of leaks (tire/rim interface, valve, valve/rim interface and the wheel) which prevent the guarantee of pressure maintenance for individuals using air or nitrogen inflation."

Not what I'd call a recomendation.



Nitrogen and compressed air CAN be mixed, if needed. Tires manufactured by Michelin are designed to deliver their expected performance when inflated with air or nitrogen, as long as the user respects the pressures recommended by the vehicle manufacturer on the vehicle's placard or by the tire manufacturer.



Low tire
pressure causes uneven tread wear and increases failures covered by road
hazard warranties. Low tire pressure also causes the TPMS warning system
to activate which causes return visits to the tire store to have the
issue resolved (at an expected cost of $0). The LAST thing any store
wants is for customers to return for warranty service. Anything you can
do to reduce the likelihood of this occurring is worthwhile, and when it
costs you essentially nothing it's a no-brainer.

Most Costco members are not going to buy tires anywhere else because
it's highly unlikely to ever find better prices when you include
everything, even without free nitrogen.

How about if they don't have the tire you want? Plus I've seen other
great deals at other places. Costco doesn't have a lock on anything.
Even toilet paper is cheaper on sale at the local supermarket.


Most tire stores charge extra
for valves and road hazard, plus they have much higher charges for
mounting and balancing. It'd be rare for another store to be with $100
of Costco's price, plus now Costco will order tires for you if you don't
like the ones that they have in stock.

I say baloney. I looked at Costco tire prices. Wound up getting them
at Sams Club, because Sams happened to be cheaper. Is Costco frequently
cheaper on a lot of stuff. Sure. But it seems you have a penchant for
gross exageration.

On Friday, November 7, 2014 2:24:09 PM UTC-5, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:12:51 -0800, SMS
wrote:



I like the TPMS on cars where the driver is unlikely to ever check the
tire pressure.

Is that your car? I don't have TPMS on my car, but I keep a tire
gauge in my glovebox, and occasionally check all tires.
If leakage is excessive I get it fixed. That seldom happens.
If I had TPMS and it worked, I would do the same, less the check.
I haven't had trouble with tire wear.

Sensors are going to be used in increasing number on
vehicles and machinery for faults and to indicate when maintenance is
actually necessary (versus the present system of basing maintenance
mainly on time or miles).

Oil change is the only one on my car. What others are available?
I don't understand this sudden interest in nitrogen.
Tire Rack says:
"Overall, inflating tires with nitrogen won't hurt them and may
provide some minimal benefits."
"Rather than pay extra for nitrogen, most drivers would be better off
buying an accurate tire pressure gauge and checking and adjusting
their tire pressures regularly."

Doubt I'll ever put nitrogen in my tires.
None of the "minimal benefits" even apply to me, or most drivers.
But if it's free I won't turn it down.

And here's what Michelin says:

"Nitrogen Versus Compressed Air

Most tires are filled with compressed air. But some tire retailers have started to put nitrogen into their customers' tires. (Nitrogen is simply dry air with the oxygen removed. Air contains nearly 79% nitrogen already.) Because nitrogen replaces oxygen, less air can escape your tires, and your inflation pressure stays higher longer. Unfortunately, there are other possible sources of leaks (tire/rim interface, valve, valve/rim interface and the wheel) which prevent the guarantee of pressure maintenance for individuals using air or nitrogen inflation.

Nitrogen and compressed air CAN be mixed, if needed. Tires manufactured by Michelin are designed to deliver their expected performance when inflated with air or nitrogen, as long as the user respects the pressures recommended by the vehicle manufacturer on the vehicle's placard or by the tire manufacturer."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement either.

ok enough about the nitrogen

what about the water vapor.

I refill my tires with compressed air from my little compressor that has no dryer and i notice the moisture that squirts out.

Is there any bad effect to the tires due to the moisture?

My theory is that when the tire heats up the moisture is driven out of the tire eventually through the permiability of the rubber.

Mark

On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 12:55:46 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"SMS" wrote in message
.. .
One other thing, is if you have a TPMS sensor fail (flashing TPMS
warning light at start-up) Costco does replacements at a cost far less
than the dealer. The batteries in the factory sensors fail at about 7
years. I just had them replace one last month. The next time I get new
tires I'll have them replace the other three since they are all going to
fail within a year and if they change them while they are doing mounting
and balancing there's no additional labor charge.

I have a 2007 and 2008 and the TPMS have failed on both of them. I have no
intention of getting them replaced. I think I was quoted a proce of about $
60 to $ 80 for each wheel. That is getting close to the price of a tire.

Either tires are a LOT cheaper in the USA than in Canada (I know they
are somewhat cheaper) or you are buying crappy tires. I haven't bought
a tire for less than $118 on sale in quite a few years - and I don't
have 17 inch or larger rims or super low profile tires.

The 2007 has about 55,000 miles on it and the 2008 has about 25, 000 on it.
I hae replaced the factory tires on both of them with some 80,000 mile
tires. I should trade by the time I need tires again.



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On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:12:51 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 11/7/2014 9:55 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"SMS" wrote in message
...
One other thing, is if you have a TPMS sensor fail (flashing TPMS
warning light at start-up) Costco does replacements at a cost far less
than the dealer. The batteries in the factory sensors fail at about 7
years. I just had them replace one last month. The next time I get new
tires I'll have them replace the other three since they are all going to
fail within a year and if they change them while they are doing mounting
and balancing there's no additional labor charge.

I have a 2007 and 2008 and the TPMS have failed on both of them. I have no
intention of getting them replaced. I think I was quoted a proce of about $
60 to $ 80 for each wheel. That is getting close to the price of a tire.

What does the price of a TPMS sensor have to do with the price of a
tire? The two are unrelated.

Costco charged about $45 for the sensor. Installation was $15 because
they had to essentially do a mount and balance. So since the vehicle
with the faulty sensor is about eight years old (2007) I will change the
other sensors at the next tire replacement.

I like the TPMS on cars where the driver is unlikely to ever check the
tire pressure. Sensors are going to be used in increasing number on
vehicles and machinery for faults and to indicate when maintenance is
actually necessary (versus the present system of basing maintenance
mainly on time or miles).
There is talk of making TPMS and stability control mandatory on all
vehicles in North America within 5 years.

On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 12:06:09 -0800, SMS
wrote:

On 11/7/2014 11:24 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 10:12:51 -0800, SMS
wrote:



I like the TPMS on cars where the driver is unlikely to ever check the
tire pressure.

Is that your car? I don't have TPMS on my car, but I keep a tire
gauge in my glovebox, and occasionally check all tires.
If leakage is excessive I get it fixed. That seldom happens.
If I had TPMS and it worked, I would do the same, less the check.
I haven't had trouble with tire wear.

I have tire gauges in all of our cars (4). Two have TPMS, two don't. But
I'm in my fifties. I grew up doing car maintenance and repairs. That's
no longer the norm. Most people want to minimize recurring maintenance
tasks on stuff they own.

"Rather than pay extra for nitrogen, most drivers would be better off
buying an accurate tire pressure gauge and checking and adjusting
their tire pressures regularly."

Yes, that's true. But first of all, you should not have to pay extra for
nitrogen because the cost of providing it is trivial.
Have you priced a nitrogen filling unit??
Average cost is somewhere close to $8000 for the required equipment.
Not sure what the maintenance cost is.
Second of all,
just because most drivers should buy an accurate tire gauge and keep
their tires properly inflated does not mean that most drivers will do this.

Doubt I'll ever put nitrogen in my tires.
None of the "minimal benefits" even apply to me, or most drivers.
But if it's free I won't turn it down.

I would not pay extra for it. But I have not bought tires anyplace but
Costco for a very long time since it would be very rare for the
out-the-door price to ever be more at another tire retailer than at
Costco. Only if I wanted some specialty tires would I go elsewhere. Tire
Rack is good concept but their partners that do mounting and balancing
are very expensive.

On 11/7/2014 2:18 PM, wrote:
ok enough about the nitrogen

what about the water vapor.

I refill my tires with compressed air from my little compressor that has no dryer and i notice the moisture that squirts out.

Is there any bad effect to the tires due to the moisture?

Yes.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 12:55:46 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
I have a 2007 and 2008 and the TPMS have failed on both of them. I have
no
intention of getting them replaced. I think I was quoted a proce of about
$
60 to $ 80 for each wheel. That is getting close to the price of a tire.

Either tires are a LOT cheaper in the USA than in Canada (I know they
are somewhat cheaper) or you are buying crappy tires. I haven't bought
a tire for less than $118 on sale in quite a few years - and I don't
have 17 inch or larger rims or super low profile tires.


I was somewhat low on the tire prices. I put a good grade of Michelin tires
on. They are about $ 125 each. This is just a standard Toyota. Still that
$ 60 to $ 80 just for the sensor is way too high. I bet they only cost
about $ 10 or less to make. Especially in the large quantites they are mass
produced in.
The tires did come with free rotation and flat repair.
If you have to pay someone to rotate the tires two times a year, you might
say the tires are almost free after 5 or 6 years.






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On Friday, November 7, 2014 5:18:30 PM UTC-5, wrote:
ok enough about the nitrogen

what about the water vapor.

I refill my tires with compressed air from my little compressor that has no dryer and i notice the moisture that squirts out.

Is there any bad effect to the tires due to the moisture?

My theory is that when the tire heats up the moisture is driven out of the tire eventually through the permiability of the rubber.

Mark

Heh, I refill my tires most of the time the same way. Home air compresssor,
no dryer. And I don't have early tread failure, warranty claims. I'm not
running back to Costco screaming, OMG my tires failed! Warranty claim! Maybe
my tires are unique, or maybe someone else here is full of BS.

On 11/7/2014 3:36 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 12:55:46 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
I have a 2007 and 2008 and the TPMS have failed on both of them. I have
no
intention of getting them replaced. I think I was quoted a proce of about
$
60 to $ 80 for each wheel. That is getting close to the price of a tire.

Either tires are a LOT cheaper in the USA than in Canada (I know they
are somewhat cheaper) or you are buying crappy tires. I haven't bought
a tire for less than $118 on sale in quite a few years - and I don't
have 17 inch or larger rims or super low profile tires.


I was somewhat low on the tire prices. I put a good grade of Michelin tires
on. They are about $ 125 each. This is just a standard Toyota. Still that
$ 60 to $ 80 just for the sensor is way too high. I bet they only cost
about $ 10 or less to make. Especially in the large quantites they are mass
produced in.

Costco charged $45 for an after-market sensor for a 2007 Toyota Camry.
There would be no extra installation cost if replaced at the time tires
are replaced.

The manufacturing cost is immaterial, but it's probably about $3, not $10.