TimR wrote:
On Monday, December 30, 2013 7:30:58 PM UTC-5, Larry W wrote:
When my daughter got her driver's license I taught her how to change

a tire. You may want to consider doing the same...

I've taught my daughters just in case. But when the shop puts on the
lugnuts with an air wrench, it's usually impossible for them to break
them loose, and often for me. One time we couldn't get them off jumping on a cheater bar.

I guess there's supposed to be a torque setting on those things but it
must be routinely ignored.

Question: do you guys put the bolts/nuts (depending on the car) on dry
with the recommended torque? Or do you lube them and reduce the torque?
I normally never put a fastener on dry, but I've been unsure about wheels.

I do not torque and I rarely lube. I lube if I feel the lug nut binding
when I'm taking it off or putting it back on. If it comes off easily, it
typically goes back on easy.

This is the technique I learned years ago:

To loosen the lugs, I jack the vehicle up just enough to take most of the
weight off of the tire, but not enough to loose contact with the ground.
Once the lugs are slightly loose, I jack the vehicle up until the tire is
off the ground and then remove the lug nuts and tire.

I reverse the procedure when installing the tire. I snug the lug nuts
enough to draw the tire up against the hub and then lower the vehicle until
the tire touches the ground. Once the tire has a little weight on it, I
tightened the lug nuts until I feel that they are "tight enough".

I've never had a lug nut become loose using this procedure and I've always
been able to get the lug nuts off when I've wanted to.

On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 9:37:01 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
To loosen the lugs, I jack the vehicle up just enough to take most of the

weight off of the tire, but not enough to loose contact with the ground.

Once the lugs are slightly loose, I jack the vehicle up until the tire is

off the ground and then remove the lug nuts and tire.

Yeah, that works fine IF the guy with the air wrench at the shop who last tightened them did it somewhere close to properly.

I find this to be rare. I don't know why exactly. Usually they are way too tight.

On 12/31/2013 9:37 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

This is the technique I learned years ago:

To loosen the lugs, I jack the vehicle up just enough to take most of the
weight off of the tire, but not enough to loose contact with the ground.
Once the lugs are slightly loose, I jack the vehicle up until the tire is
off the ground and then remove the lug nuts and tire.

I reverse the procedure when installing the tire. I snug the lug nuts
enough to draw the tire up against the hub and then lower the vehicle until
the tire touches the ground. Once the tire has a little weight on it, I
tightened the lug nuts until I feel that they are "tight enough".

I've never had a lug nut become loose using this procedure and I've always
been able to get the lug nuts off when I've wanted to.

"once the lugs are slightly loose". Is that like
"add water and heat"? Leaves out the critical
details. How does one loosen the lugs, please?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 10:04:25 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
"once the lugs are slightly loose". Is that like

"add water and heat"? Leaves out the critical

details. How does one loosen the lugs, please?


Here's how I did it last time. It was not a flat, I needed to change to another set of tires to pass inspection. The other set was in the garage already mounted, all I had to do was jack the car up and swap them.

So I dragged the kids away from their video games. "Daddy's going to teach you how to change a tire." groans and grumbles

Put the jack under the car. Raise it a little. Put the lug wrench on the lug. Pull as hard as I can. Turn red. Children laughing. Go to the garage and get 4 foot length of 1 inch water pipe. Pull as hard as I can. Turn red. Children still laughing. Stand on water pipe. Jump up and down. Where are the kids? Guess they gave up. Put tires in trunk, drive to service station, borrow an air wrench and floor jack. They were closed but the mechanic was still there and didn't even charge me to use the tools.

On 12/31/2013 10:20 AM, TimR wrote:

Here's how I did it last time. It was not a flat, I needed to change to another set of tires to pass inspection. The other set was in the garage already mounted, all I had to do was jack the car up and swap them.

So I dragged the kids away from their video games. "Daddy's going to teach you how to change a tire." groans and grumbles

Put the jack under the car. Raise it a little. Put the lug wrench on the lug. Pull as hard as I can. Turn red. Children laughing. Go to the garage and get 4 foot length of 1 inch water pipe. Pull as hard as I can. Turn red. Children still laughing. Stand on water pipe. Jump up and down. Where are the kids? Guess they gave up. Put tires in trunk, drive to service station, borrow an air wrench and floor jack. They were closed but the mechanic was still there and didn't even charge me to use the tools.


I've had some success with the T shaped "star
wrench". Pull up on the right, and put my foot
on the left. Lean my fat against the vehicle.

Sounds like an obvious case of mechanic put
the lugs on too tight with air wrench. There
have been cases of damaged wheels and warped
rotors with that "air wrench madness".

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/31/2013 9:37 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

This is the technique I learned years ago:

To loosen the lugs, I jack the vehicle up just enough to take most of the
weight off of the tire, but not enough to loose contact with the ground.
Once the lugs are slightly loose, I jack the vehicle up until the tire is
off the ground and then remove the lug nuts and tire.

I reverse the procedure when installing the tire. I snug the lug nuts
enough to draw the tire up against the hub and then lower the vehicle until
the tire touches the ground. Once the tire has a little weight on it, I
tightened the lug nuts until I feel that they are "tight enough".

I've never had a lug nut become loose using this procedure and I've always
been able to get the lug nuts off when I've wanted to.

"once the lugs are slightly loose". Is that like
"add water and heat"?

Uh, no. Not even close.

Leaves out the critical
details. How does one loosen the lugs, please?

I'm slightly confused by your question.

I loosen the lug nuts with a lug nut wrench and (sometimes) a piece of pipe
for leverage. Why does that matter? The procedure would be the same
regardless of what kind of tool I use.

TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 9:37:01 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
To loosen the lugs, I jack the vehicle up just enough to take most of the

weight off of the tire, but not enough to loose contact with the ground.

Once the lugs are slightly loose, I jack the vehicle up until the tire is

off the ground and then remove the lug nuts and tire.

Yeah, that works fine IF the guy with the air wrench at the shop who last
tightened them did it somewhere close to properly.

I find this to be rare. I don't know why exactly. Usually they are way too tight.

Since I started using a piece of pipe on the lug nut wrench many years ago,
I have not had an issue with breaking lug nuts free. I have a piece of
thick grey pipe, about 3 feet long that I slip over the lug wrench. Works
every time. On occasion I have had to extend it way out for maximum
leverage, but I've always been able to loosen the lug nuts when I had to.

When I recently had the tires replaced on my daughter's car, I was
concerned that they would be too tight because of the length of time the
installer spent with the air powered impact wrench on each wheel. I decided
to check a couple when I got home and they felt just right. Seems like they
had the torque setting correct, or close enough. Maybe the guy just liked
the sound of the impact wrench.

On 12/31/2013 10:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
"once the lugs are slightly loose". Is that like
"add water and heat"?

Uh, no. Not even close.

Leaves out the critical
details. How does one loosen the lugs, please?

I'm slightly confused by your question.

I loosen the lug nuts with a lug nut wrench and (sometimes) a piece of pipe
for leverage. Why does that matter? The procedure would be the same
regardless of what kind of tool I use.

L shaped lug wrench
X shaped lug wrench
socket and ratchet
Air wrench
Socket and breaker bar

Each of these have different operating techniques.
One can press up, press down, rotate.

One of my techniques is to use the X shaped lug
wrench. I pull up on the right, with my hands.
Push down on the left with one foot, lean on the
side of the vehicle.

Using a socket and breaker bar, I can either
put the wrench on the right and pull up, or
wrench on the left and push down.

Same deal with L shaped lug wrench. Pull up, to
the right? Push down on the left? Push left with
handle at 12 o'clock?

Starting to become clear why I ask which technique
one uses?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/31/2013 10:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
"once the lugs are slightly loose". Is that like
"add water and heat"?

Uh, no. Not even close.

Leaves out the critical
details. How does one loosen the lugs, please?

I'm slightly confused by your question.

I loosen the lug nuts with a lug nut wrench and (sometimes) a piece of pipe
for leverage. Why does that matter? The procedure would be the same
regardless of what kind of tool I use.

L shaped lug wrench
X shaped lug wrench
socket and ratchet
Air wrench
Socket and breaker bar

Each of these have different operating techniques.
One can press up, press down, rotate.

One of my techniques is to use the X shaped lug
wrench. I pull up on the right, with my hands.
Push down on the left with one foot, lean on the
side of the vehicle.

Using a socket and breaker bar, I can either
put the wrench on the right and pull up, or
wrench on the left and push down.

Same deal with L shaped lug wrench. Pull up, to
the right? Push down on the left? Push left with
handle at 12 o'clock?

Starting to become clear why I ask which technique
one uses?

As I said, regardless of which tool I use, the procedure is the same as far
as jacking the car up just enough to take the weight off of the tires
before loosening and then jacking to down to add a little weight before
tightening.

I don't consider the tool used to be a "critical detail" (your words)
related to the procedure. Now, if you were simply curious as to which tool
I prefer, that's something different.

My #1 preference? Any of the above tools, used by someone else, at no cost
to me. ;-)

My reality preference? Me using an L-shaped lug wrench with a breaker pipe
to initially loosen/finally tighten the lug nuts and a cordless drill with
a big socket to spin them off and on.

I've never like the X-shaped lug wrenches. I never can get enough leverage
and I've bent them trying to get lug nuts off. I don't like standing on
them for fear of snapping a stud. I've tried ratchet handles and sockets
with a breaker pipe. I've broke sockets, I've broke ratchet handles.

My pipe fits over all of the various L-shape lug wrenches that I and my
kids' assorted vehicles have, both the short wrenches and the long ones.
Trailer, van, pick up, wagon, sedans. It works for all of them, every time.

BTW...the short lug wrenches, like my daughter's Mitsubishi came with,
leads me to believe that the lug nuts do not need to be extremely tight.
The manual gives a torque setting and it is my assumption that the
recommended torque can be achieved with the tool provided with the car,
although I've never actually checked it. Obviously, I can get it tighter
with a longer wrench, and even tighter with a pipe extension, but wouldn't
one think that the tool provided with the car should be able to properly
get the lug nuts on (and off) without any other tools?

When I had the rental this weekend, I was able to loosen the lugs with the
short wrench that came with the car, even though I never actually changed
the tire. Assuming it was mounted with the correct torque, the short wrench
is all that should be needed.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 01:35:36 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/31/2013 1:17 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Hi,
You know what? When I buy new vehicle one condition is getting a full
size spare tire on a matching rim. The dealer has to include it on a
deal. Up front I tell them that is what I want/need
on my new car.

I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 14:36:59 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/31/2013 8:19 AM, TimR wrote:

I've taught my daughters just in case. But when the shop
puts on the lugnuts with an air wrench, it's usually
impossible for them to break them loose, and often for
me. One time we couldn't get them off jumping on a
cheater bar.

I guess there's supposed to be a torque setting on
those things but it must be routinely ignored.

Question: do you guys put the bolts/nuts (depending
on the car) on dry with the recommended torque? Or do
you lube them and reduce the torque? I normally never
put a fastener on dry, but I've been unsure about wheels.


This has as much heated opinion and toilet paper over the
top or under the bottom. My opinion is to lube the threads
and mating cone point with grease or Never-Sieze. Torque
with clicker torque wrench, and recheck the next day and
the second day. Others will quote Aristotle, Mack, Ford,
or just tell me that I'm mistaken.

I've had a wheel fall off twice. Once when it started to
rain the day I was working. I slipped the lugs on finger
tight, and neglected to torque them. This was about 1980
model Chevette, with steel rims.

Second time was a 98 Blazer with aluminum rims. I put the
lugs on with torque wrench but didn't recheck the next day
and on day two. The lugs were under snap cap, and I didn't
see that they were loose. I thought I had a backwards radial
on the other corner, and didn't visually or wrench check the
one that was loosening.

Both of those were my neglect, and I take responsibility.

The only time I've had a wheel loosen up is when a service center put the
wrong wheels on my vehicle.

I had my dead Subaru towed to a service station late on a Saturday night. I
didn't make an appointment because they were closed until Monday. I had
used the service station before and since my car was dead, I decided to
have it towed there with the plan to call them Monday morning. I told the
tow truck driver to put the car behind the station, pointed towards the
service bay door so that they could push it into the shop when they were
ready.

I called them first thing Monday morning and they said they were wondering
what the car was doing behind their shop, balanced on 3 concrete blocks
with no wheels. To this day, I believe the tow truck driver was involved
with the theft of the wheels and brand new tires, but there was obviously
no way I could prove it. He would have been the only one who knew the car
was behind the station, unless someone else went back there looking for
vehicles to mess with.

Anyway, the service station located some used wheels (the wagon wheel
style) and new tires and put them on the vehicle. I picked it up after the
repair was done and proceeded to drive 300 miles to my parent's house for
the holidays. The car felt fine while driving on the highway but when I
slowed for a toll booth, the steering wheel started shimmying. I pulled off
of the road and found that a couple of lugs were loose on the front wheels.
I tightened them up and continued on my way. When I got to my parent's
house, the car felt funny again, so I checked the wheels and found that
_all_ of the lug nuts were loose and some of the studs were stripped.

It turned out that the wheels they put did not fit over the hub correctly.
They were being held onto the car with just the lug nuts, with no support
from the hub. I had to take it to a shop to have a few of the studs
replaced. It took them a few days to locate the correct wheels so I was
stuck without a car and delayed in getting home.

My insurance company covered the original theft of the wheels and the
service station covered the cost of the replacement wheels and stud repairs
after I threatened to report them to any and all groups and authorities I
could think of.
Better than half of vehicles are "stud centric", not "hub centric"
and they use the same studs and nuts.

wrote:
On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 14:36:59 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/31/2013 8:19 AM, TimR wrote:

I've taught my daughters just in case. But when the shop
puts on the lugnuts with an air wrench, it's usually
impossible for them to break them loose, and often for
me. One time we couldn't get them off jumping on a
cheater bar.

I guess there's supposed to be a torque setting on
those things but it must be routinely ignored.

Question: do you guys put the bolts/nuts (depending
on the car) on dry with the recommended torque? Or do
you lube them and reduce the torque? I normally never
put a fastener on dry, but I've been unsure about wheels.


This has as much heated opinion and toilet paper over the
top or under the bottom. My opinion is to lube the threads
and mating cone point with grease or Never-Sieze. Torque
with clicker torque wrench, and recheck the next day and
the second day. Others will quote Aristotle, Mack, Ford,
or just tell me that I'm mistaken.

I've had a wheel fall off twice. Once when it started to
rain the day I was working. I slipped the lugs on finger
tight, and neglected to torque them. This was about 1980
model Chevette, with steel rims.

Second time was a 98 Blazer with aluminum rims. I put the
lugs on with torque wrench but didn't recheck the next day
and on day two. The lugs were under snap cap, and I didn't
see that they were loose. I thought I had a backwards radial
on the other corner, and didn't visually or wrench check the
one that was loosening.

Both of those were my neglect, and I take responsibility.

The only time I've had a wheel loosen up is when a service center put the
wrong wheels on my vehicle.

I had my dead Subaru towed to a service station late on a Saturday night. I
didn't make an appointment because they were closed until Monday. I had
used the service station before and since my car was dead, I decided to
have it towed there with the plan to call them Monday morning. I told the
tow truck driver to put the car behind the station, pointed towards the
service bay door so that they could push it into the shop when they were
ready.

I called them first thing Monday morning and they said they were wondering
what the car was doing behind their shop, balanced on 3 concrete blocks
with no wheels. To this day, I believe the tow truck driver was involved
with the theft of the wheels and brand new tires, but there was obviously
no way I could prove it. He would have been the only one who knew the car
was behind the station, unless someone else went back there looking for
vehicles to mess with.

Anyway, the service station located some used wheels (the wagon wheel
style) and new tires and put them on the vehicle. I picked it up after the
repair was done and proceeded to drive 300 miles to my parent's house for
the holidays. The car felt fine while driving on the highway but when I
slowed for a toll booth, the steering wheel started shimmying. I pulled off
of the road and found that a couple of lugs were loose on the front wheels.
I tightened them up and continued on my way. When I got to my parent's
house, the car felt funny again, so I checked the wheels and found that
_all_ of the lug nuts were loose and some of the studs were stripped.

It turned out that the wheels they put did not fit over the hub correctly.
They were being held onto the car with just the lug nuts, with no support
from the hub. I had to take it to a shop to have a few of the studs
replaced. It took them a few days to locate the correct wheels so I was
stuck without a car and delayed in getting home.

My insurance company covered the original theft of the wheels and the
service station covered the cost of the replacement wheels and stud repairs
after I threatened to report them to any and all groups and authorities I
could think of.
Better than half of vehicles are "stud centric", not "hub centric"
and they use the same studs and nuts.

It's not clear to me what you are trying to say. Please explain.

This was a 1986 Subaru. The bolt pattern of the "wrong" wheels was the same
as the correct ones, but the wheels definitely did not fit the car
correctly. If my memory serves me correctly (it's been a while) the center
of the wheel did not fit over the hub and therefore the wheels were not
"inboard" enough.

Rough numbers, picture a tapered hub on the car, with a max diameter of 3".
Now picture a wheel with a 2.75" hole in the center. The wheel fit over the
hub and studs but not all the way in against the rotor. There was a gap
that allowed the wheel to move side to side while driving, eventually
loosening the lug nuts and damaging the studs. The mechanic probably just
tightened the lug nuts, never realizing that the wheel was not seated up
against the rotor.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 23:17:30 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Irreverent Maximus wrote:
On 12/30/2013 8:05 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/30/2013 8:55 AM, Retired wrote:

Read this article from Edmunds
http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/th...pare-tire.html
where they say
"Edmunds has only been tracking the use of repair kits since 2009, but
the list of cars with no spare tire is growing. According to Edmunds.com
data, 47 more models now have repair kits. That's a 204 percent increase
in cars that use them as a spare tire substitute. Repair kits are
standard in 21 percent of the current vehicles available and outnumber
the cars that come with run-flat tires."

The vehicles I've had for the last few years, tire
problems are a real concern. They go flat, and one
time I had the lugs loosen and cause trouble a
couple days after doing some brake work. I'd sure
prefer to have a full size spare if possible.


Buy one and quit yer bitchen. :-)
Hi,
You know what? When I buy new vehicle one condition is getting a full
size spare tire on a matching rim. The dealer has to include it on a
deal. Up front I tell them that is what I want/need
on my new car.

I did that with my '01 Ranger. I specifically bought the "full sized
spare" option. "Full sized" meant that it was a 15" tire on a 15"
(steel) wheel, even though the truck had 16" aluminum wheels. IIRC,
the tires were 235R16s with the spare being a 215R15. It never came
off the tire sling.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 05:19:14 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Monday, December 30, 2013 7:30:58 PM UTC-5, Larry W wrote:
When my daughter got her driver's license I taught her how to change

a tire. You may want to consider doing the same...

I've taught my daughters just in case. But when the shop puts on the lugnuts with an air wrench, it's usually impossible for them to break them loose, and often for me. One time we couldn't get them off jumping on a cheater bar.

Should have bought them a proper tire iron for Christmas.

I guess there's supposed to be a torque setting on those things but it must be routinely ignored.

Yes, but if they don't, it's time to find someone else to do your
work. They're hacks and can warp your rotors.

Question: do you guys put the bolts/nuts (depending on the car) on dry with the recommended torque? Or do you lube them and reduce the torque? I normally never put a fastener on dry, but I've been unsure about wheels.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:53:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/31/2013 8:19 AM, TimR wrote:

I've taught my daughters just in case. But when the shop
puts on the lugnuts with an air wrench, it's usually
impossible for them to break them loose, and often for
me. One time we couldn't get them off jumping on a
cheater bar.

I guess there's supposed to be a torque setting on
those things but it must be routinely ignored.

Question: do you guys put the bolts/nuts (depending
on the car) on dry with the recommended torque? Or do
you lube them and reduce the torque? I normally never
put a fastener on dry, but I've been unsure about wheels.


This has as much heated opinion and toilet paper over the
top or under the bottom. My opinion is to lube the threads
and mating cone point with grease or Never-Sieze. Torque
with clicker torque wrench, and recheck the next day and
the second day. Others will quote Aristotle, Mack, Ford,
or just tell me that I'm mistaken.

I've had a wheel fall off twice. Once when it started to
rain the day I was working. I slipped the lugs on finger
tight, and neglected to torque them. This was about 1980
model Chevette, with steel rims.

Second time was a 98 Blazer with aluminum rims. I put the
lugs on with torque wrench but didn't recheck the next day
and on day two. The lugs were under snap cap, and I didn't
see that they were loose. I thought I had a backwards radial
on the other corner, and didn't visually or wrench check the
one that was loosening.

Both of those were my neglect, and I take responsibility.

Several years ago, I had Costco rotate my tires. They're supposed to
use torque wrenches (with the manager checking all work, personally).
A few days later I had the car inspected, without fanfare. A couple
of hours later my wife called me, rather ****ed, saying that a wheel
passed her. Fortunately, she had just gotten off an Interstate and
was on a side-street. The wheel chewed itself up pretty well, broke a
couple of lug nuts, and did some significant damage to the fender on
its way to freedom. No one took responsibility, of course.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 19:21:39 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Better than half of vehicles are "stud centric", not "hub centric"
and they use the same studs and nuts.

It's not clear to me what you are trying to say. Please explain.

This was a 1986 Subaru. The bolt pattern of the "wrong" wheels was the same
as the correct ones, but the wheels definitely did not fit the car
correctly. If my memory serves me correctly (it's been a while) the center
of the wheel did not fit over the hub and therefore the wheels were not
"inboard" enough.

Rough numbers, picture a tapered hub on the car, with a max diameter of 3".
Now picture a wheel with a 2.75" hole in the center. The wheel fit over the
hub and studs but not all the way in against the rotor. There was a gap
that allowed the wheel to move side to side while driving, eventually
loosening the lug nuts and damaging the studs. The mechanic probably just
tightened the lug nuts, never realizing that the wheel was not seated up
against the rotor.
OK - I think I understand you now. The wheel center hole was too
SMALL for the hub. I thought you were blaming the problem on the wheel
center being too LARGE for the hub.
Yes, if the rim could not seat all the way it WOULD cause a problem,
and the "mechanic" who installed the wheels was blind and dumb.

The "mechanic" likely attempted to install Toyota wheels. The Soob
takes metric 5 wheels - 5 on 100, with 56.1 counterbore. The Toyota
bolt circle is the same, but the counterbore is a lousy 2mm smaller
(at 54.1mm)

On 12/31/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:


I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.


I guess it is not important to me. I don't know if any of my last three
cars had one. Rare that I'd lock the doors anyway, but my remote
starter does.

Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to
stop a pro.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 18:15:44 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/31/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:


I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.


I guess it is not important to me. I don't know if any of my last three
cars had one. Rare that I'd lock the doors anyway, but my remote
starter does.

Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to
stop a pro.

They keep honest people honest and appease insurance companies. That's
all any lock does.

In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
The "mechanic" likely attempted to install Toyota wheels. The Soob
takes metric 5 wheels - 5 on 100, with 56.1 counterbore. The Toyota
bolt circle is the same, but the counterbore is a lousy 2mm smaller
(at 54.1mm)

"Counterbore" ?


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article ,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
...snipped...
When I recently had the tires replaced on my daughter's car, I was
concerned that they would be too tight because of the length of time the
installer spent with the air powered impact wrench on each wheel. I decided
to check a couple when I got home and they felt just right. Seems like they
had the torque setting correct, or close enough. Maybe the guy just liked
the sound of the impact wrench.

A simple device commonly called a "torque stick" has become more popular
in recent years, and it's a good thing, too. Looks like a short extension
that goes between the impact wrench and the socket, but it's made out
of just the right thickness and grade of steel to limit the amount of
torque applied to the lug nuts. They come in sets that cover the common
lug nut sizes and torque ranges. They're cheap and effective and really
prevent overtorquing lug nuts. We've bought them for all the techs at my
shop and insist that they use them.


--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/31/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:


I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.


I guess it is not important to me. I don't know if any of my last three
cars had one. Rare that I'd lock the doors anyway, but my remote starter does.

Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to stop a pro.

I tried my passenger door lock with a key a few weeks ago. I can barely get
the key in, never mind turn it. Power remote locks and/or the driver's door
key hole is all I've ever needed. Of course, I should fix it just in case
both of the other 2 methods go bad at the same time.

BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

On 12/31/2013 6:17 PM, wrote:


Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to
stop a pro.

They keep honest people honest and appease insurance companies. That's
all any lock does.


Had my car broken into twice. One time they took a quart of oil in the
back seat.. Second time the glove box contents were on the floor.

Cars parked near me that were locked had broken windows, pry marks and
some other damage. My brother lost a pair of sunglasses and had the
convertible top slashed to get to them.

On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 00:05:41 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/31/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:


I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.


I guess it is not important to me. I don't know if any of my last three
cars had one. Rare that I'd lock the doors anyway, but my remote starter does.

Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to stop a pro.

I tried my passenger door lock with a key a few weeks ago. I can barely get
the key in, never mind turn it. Power remote locks and/or the driver's door
key hole is all I've ever needed. Of course, I should fix it just in case
both of the other 2 methods go bad at the same time.

BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

I don't understand the logic either. I believe they all kill the
engine if the throttle or brake (or clutch) are touched.

We've had one. That was enough to cure me of that particular
laziness.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 23:27:54 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
...snipped...
When I recently had the tires replaced on my daughter's car, I was
concerned that they would be too tight because of the length of time the
installer spent with the air powered impact wrench on each wheel. I decided
to check a couple when I got home and they felt just right. Seems like they
had the torque setting correct, or close enough. Maybe the guy just liked
the sound of the impact wrench.

A simple device commonly called a "torque stick" has become more popular
in recent years, and it's a good thing, too. Looks like a short extension
that goes between the impact wrench and the socket, but it's made out
of just the right thickness and grade of steel to limit the amount of
torque applied to the lug nuts. They come in sets that cover the common
lug nut sizes and torque ranges. They're cheap and effective and really
prevent overtorquing lug nuts. We've bought them for all the techs at my
shop and insist that they use them.
Insisting they use the RIGHT one is the trick!!! and it is still
possible to overtorque with the torque stick - they just have to be a
bit stupider and try a bit harder.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 23:22:06 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
The "mechanic" likely attempted to install Toyota wheels. The Soob
takes metric 5 wheels - 5 on 100, with 56.1 counterbore. The Toyota
bolt circle is the same, but the counterbore is a lousy 2mm smaller
(at 54.1mm)

"Counterbore" ?
Center hole diameter

On 12/31/2013 7:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I tried my passenger door lock with a key a few weeks ago. I can barely get
the key in, never mind turn it. Power remote locks and/or the driver's door
key hole is all I've ever needed. Of course, I should fix it just in case
both of the other 2 methods go bad at the same time.


In the road salt parts of the world, it's necessary
to lube the door locks at least a couple times a
year. WD-40 is better than nothing. I like Castle
Thrust, or a syringe and some 10w30 motor oil.

When I used to work in a locksmith shop in the city,
we'd replace door lock cylinders for people. The salt
turns them into a lump of zinc and copper. And salt.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/31/2013 6:22 PM, Larry W wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
...snipped...
The "mechanic" likely attempted to install Toyota wheels. The Soob
takes metric 5 wheels - 5 on 100, with 56.1 counterbore. The Toyota
bolt circle is the same, but the counterbore is a lousy 2mm smaller
(at 54.1mm)

"Counterbore" ?


A couple decades ago, I had a Dodge van, the rear wheels
would not come off unless I used a torch. I finally chocked
the front, took one rear wheel off, start the engine, and
put it in reverse. Used a drill and grind stone to take
down the hub a bit, until the wheels fit. And then did the
same on the other side. No more propane torch to get the
wheels off each time.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 00:05:41 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/31/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:


I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.


I guess it is not important to me. I don't know if any of my last three
cars had one. Rare that I'd lock the doors anyway, but my remote starter does.

Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to stop a pro.

I tried my passenger door lock with a key a few weeks ago. I can barely get
the key in, never mind turn it. Power remote locks and/or the driver's door
key hole is all I've ever needed. Of course, I should fix it just in case
both of the other 2 methods go bad at the same time.

BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

I don't understand the logic either. I believe they all kill the
engine if the throttle or brake (or clutch) are touched.

We've had one. That was enough to cure me of that particular
laziness.

Call me lazy, but starting my vehicles from the warmth of my living room or
office when there's ice on the windshield sure is convenient. I'll blow
snow up and down my street for hours at a time, but I'd still rather go
from a warm house to a warm car without having to run out in the cold to
start it.

In article ,
wrote:
On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 23:27:54 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
...snipped...
When I recently had the tires replaced on my daughter's car, I was
concerned that they would be too tight because of the length of time the
installer spent with the air powered impact wrench on each wheel. I decided
to check a couple when I got home and they felt just right. Seems like they
had the torque setting correct, or close enough. Maybe the guy just liked
the sound of the impact wrench.

A simple device commonly called a "torque stick" has become more popular
in recent years, and it's a good thing, too. Looks like a short extension
that goes between the impact wrench and the socket, but it's made out
of just the right thickness and grade of steel to limit the amount of
torque applied to the lug nuts. They come in sets that cover the common
lug nut sizes and torque ranges. They're cheap and effective and really
prevent overtorquing lug nuts. We've bought them for all the techs at my
shop and insist that they use them.
Insisting they use the RIGHT one is the trick!!! and it is still
possible to overtorque with the torque stick - they just have to be a
bit stupider and try a bit harder.

Actually, I made a mistake in my first description. The torque sticks
have an integral socket, and so will only fit on that size lug nut.
That further reduces the possibility of selecting the wrong one.


--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On 1/1/2014 12:22 AM, wrote:


BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

I don't understand the logic either. I believe they all kill the
engine if the throttle or brake (or clutch) are touched.

We've had one. That was enough to cure me of that particular
laziness.


I have a Code-Alarm brand. It locks the doors, then starts the car.
Present car is a Hyundai Sonata with Blue Link. When I used it in the
free trial period, it would not lock the doors, but it would not start
the car until I did and I could do that remotely also.

I did not renew the overpriced Blue Link and opted to install my own remote.

In all cases, the engine would die it the brake pedal is pushed with no
key.

In some towns around here you have to have your doors locked if the car
is running unattended. That is the result of stolen cars where idiots
would run out and start the car and leave the keys in it.

When I park the car at night I put the defroster on and the seat heater
switch. Five minutes or so makes a nice head start.

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 11:44:59 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/1/2014 12:22 AM, wrote:


BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

I don't understand the logic either. I believe they all kill the
engine if the throttle or brake (or clutch) are touched.

We've had one. That was enough to cure me of that particular
laziness.


I have a Code-Alarm brand. It locks the doors, then starts the car.
Present car is a Hyundai Sonata with Blue Link. When I used it in the
free trial period, it would not lock the doors, but it would not start
the car until I did and I could do that remotely also.

I did not renew the overpriced Blue Link and opted to install my own remote.

In all cases, the engine would die it the brake pedal is pushed with no
key.

In some towns around here you have to have your doors locked if the car
is running unattended. That is the result of stolen cars where idiots
would run out and start the car and leave the keys in it.

Where I was, it was illegal to have a car running, unattended, at any
time. AIUI, the law was designed to keep tractor-trailers from
running their engines all night but it was enforced against cars, too,
though not often in residential areas, in front of people's homes.

When I park the car at night I put the defroster on and the seat heater
switch. Five minutes or so makes a nice head start.

I don't believe I've ever had a car where the window heaters weren't
momentary buttons. I've never had seat heaters. I guess my wife's
car does now but it'll never be used. ;-)

On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 15:00:26 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 00:05:41 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/31/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:


I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.


I guess it is not important to me. I don't know if any of my last three
cars had one. Rare that I'd lock the doors anyway, but my remote starter does.

Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to stop a pro.

I tried my passenger door lock with a key a few weeks ago. I can barely get
the key in, never mind turn it. Power remote locks and/or the driver's door
key hole is all I've ever needed. Of course, I should fix it just in case
both of the other 2 methods go bad at the same time.

BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

I don't understand the logic either. I believe they all kill the
engine if the throttle or brake (or clutch) are touched.

We've had one. That was enough to cure me of that particular
laziness.

Call me lazy, but starting my vehicles from the warmth of my living room or
office when there's ice on the windshield sure is convenient. I'll blow
snow up and down my street for hours at a time, but I'd still rather go
from a warm house to a warm car without having to run out in the cold to
start it.

Oh, it was great, when it worked. When it didn't, she didn't get to
work. If it was cold, it would flood the car and keep trying its
stupid algorithm that got it there, until there was no battery left.
We'd have to babysit it anyway, so it wasn't worth the trouble.
After-market starters would also void the warrantee for starters and
such.

wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 15:00:26 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 00:05:41 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/31/2013 12:10 PM, wrote:


I also require a key operated lock on the
passenger side door.
Which is not an addable option on most cars that don't have one.


I guess it is not important to me. I don't know if any of my last three
cars had one. Rare that I'd lock the doors anyway, but my remote starter does.

Locked car doors make amateur thieves damage you car and do nothing to stop a pro.

I tried my passenger door lock with a key a few weeks ago. I can barely get
the key in, never mind turn it. Power remote locks and/or the driver's door
key hole is all I've ever needed. Of course, I should fix it just in case
both of the other 2 methods go bad at the same time.

BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

I don't understand the logic either. I believe they all kill the
engine if the throttle or brake (or clutch) are touched.

We've had one. That was enough to cure me of that particular
laziness.

Call me lazy, but starting my vehicles from the warmth of my living room or
office when there's ice on the windshield sure is convenient. I'll blow
snow up and down my street for hours at a time, but I'd still rather go
from a warm house to a warm car without having to run out in the cold to
start it.

Oh, it was great, when it worked. When it didn't, she didn't get to
work. If it was cold, it would flood the car and keep trying its
stupid algorithm that got it there, until there was no battery left.
We'd have to babysit it anyway, so it wasn't worth the trouble.
After-market starters would also void the warrantee for starters and
such.

My remote starters have always been after-market. Different brands, but
they all worked the same way: three tries to start the car. After that,
they gave up. That's what the manual said it would do, and that's how it
worked the one time I "tested" that feature. I had a weak battery and the
car wouldn't start. The remote tried three times and then quit. Maybe yours
was defective.

The one time we had a problem with a remote starter was with my wife's car.
Her car often take 2 tries if it's really cold. Towards the end of last
winter, if the car stalled after the first start, the remote wouldn't turn
the heater blower, lights or radio off or try to restart it. From some
reason it assumed the car was running. After that happened a few times, I
called the shop where we bought it 3 to 4 years prior and they replaced the
module under the lifetime warranty. No problems since then. If the car
stalls, the remote starts it again about 5 seconds later. It never takes
more than 2 tries.

On 1/1/2014 1:10 PM, wrote:

When I park the car at night I put the defroster on and the seat heater
switch. Five minutes or so makes a nice head start.

I don't believe I've ever had a car where the window heaters weren't
momentary buttons. I've never had seat heaters. I guess my wife's
car does now but it'll never be used. ;-)


Front defrost can be set, but the rear defrost is a momentary button so
it cannot be set. I understand that some more costly remotes can be
used to turn on secondary accessories. Some will even report back the
internal temperature.

Seats vary. I've had different switches on the last three Sonatas I've
had. The '07 and '13 will stay set, but the '10 had momentary switches.
n this one the rear seat heaters can alxo be set to stay on, but I'd not
do that.

On 1/1/2014 1:13 PM, wrote:

After-market starters would also void the warrantee for starters and
such.

Not in my case. I checked Many dealers put them in too.

wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 11:44:59 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/1/2014 12:22 AM, wrote:


BTW...No remote starter that I've ever had, and I've had a number of them,
locked the doors. What's the point of that?

I don't understand the logic either. I believe they all kill the
engine if the throttle or brake (or clutch) are touched.

We've had one. That was enough to cure me of that particular
laziness.


I have a Code-Alarm brand. It locks the doors, then starts the car.
Present car is a Hyundai Sonata with Blue Link. When I used it in the
free trial period, it would not lock the doors, but it would not start
the car until I did and I could do that remotely also.

I did not renew the overpriced Blue Link and opted to install my own remote.

In all cases, the engine would die it the brake pedal is pushed with no
key.

In some towns around here you have to have your doors locked if the car
is running unattended. That is the result of stolen cars where idiots
would run out and start the car and leave the keys in it.

Where I was, it was illegal to have a car running, unattended, at any
time. AIUI, the law was designed to keep tractor-trailers from
running their engines all night but it was enforced against cars, too,
though not often in residential areas, in front of people's homes.

When I park the car at night I put the defroster on and the seat heater
switch. Five minutes or so makes a nice head start.

I don't believe I've ever had a car where the window heaters weren't
momentary buttons. I've never had seat heaters. I guess my wife's
car does now but it'll never be used. ;-)

In every car I've ever had, the heater controls stay set to the last
settings used when the car is shut off...other than the rear defroster,
that is.

We try to remember to turn the defrosters on and set the fans to high
before we shut down for the night. I usually remember to do/check it when
we take the dogs for their last walk of the night.

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 16:23:01 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/1/2014 1:13 PM, wrote:

After-market starters would also void the warrantee for starters and
such.

Not in my case. I checked Many dealers put them in too.

I know a lot of dealers put them in. ...and it still voided the
warrantee for any related failures.

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 16:20:34 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/1/2014 1:10 PM, wrote:

When I park the car at night I put the defroster on and the seat heater
switch. Five minutes or so makes a nice head start.

I don't believe I've ever had a car where the window heaters weren't
momentary buttons. I've never had seat heaters. I guess my wife's
car does now but it'll never be used. ;-)


Front defrost can be set, but the rear defrost is a momentary button so
it cannot be set. I understand that some more costly remotes can be
used to turn on secondary accessories. Some will even report back the
internal temperature.

They probably tie into the CAN. Seems possible, though it would
require software for each car. Seems like a scary thing to do, too.

Seats vary. I've had different switches on the last three Sonatas I've
had. The '07 and '13 will stay set, but the '10 had momentary switches.
n this one the rear seat heaters can alxo be set to stay on, but I'd not
do that.

DerbyDad03 posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 9:37:01 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
To loosen the lugs, I jack the vehicle up just enough to take most of the

weight off of the tire, but not enough to loose contact with the ground.

Once the lugs are slightly loose, I jack the vehicle up until the tire is

off the ground and then remove the lug nuts and tire.

Yeah, that works fine IF the guy with the air wrench at the shop who last
tightened them did it somewhere close to properly.

I find this to be rare. I don't know why exactly. Usually they are way too tight.

Since I started using a piece of pipe on the lug nut wrench many years ago,
I have not had an issue with breaking lug nuts free. I have a piece of
thick grey pipe, about 3 feet long that I slip over the lug wrench. Works
every time. On occasion I have had to extend it way out for maximum
leverage, but I've always been able to loosen the lug nuts when I had to.

When I recently had the tires replaced on my daughter's car, I was
concerned that they would be too tight because of the length of time the
installer spent with the air powered impact wrench on each wheel. I decided
to check a couple when I got home and they felt just right. Seems like they
had the torque setting correct, or close enough. Maybe the guy just liked
the sound of the impact wrench.

They probably used torque sticks which twist the
shaft when the noted amount is reached.

--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:53:59 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/31/2013 8:19 AM, TimR wrote:

I've taught my daughters just in case. But when the shop
puts on the lugnuts with an air wrench, it's usually
impossible for them to break them loose, and often for
me. One time we couldn't get them off jumping on a
cheater bar.

I guess there's supposed to be a torque setting on
those things but it must be routinely ignored.

Question: do you guys put the bolts/nuts (depending
on the car) on dry with the recommended torque? Or do
you lube them and reduce the torque? I normally never
put a fastener on dry, but I've been unsure about wheels.


This has as much heated opinion and toilet paper over the
top or under the bottom. My opinion is to lube the threads
and mating cone point with grease or Never-Sieze. Torque
with clicker torque wrench, and recheck the next day and
the second day. Others will quote Aristotle, Mack, Ford,
or just tell me that I'm mistaken.

I've had a wheel fall off twice. Once when it started to
rain the day I was working. I slipped the lugs on finger
tight, and neglected to torque them. This was about 1980
model Chevette, with steel rims.

Second time was a 98 Blazer with aluminum rims. I put the
lugs on with torque wrench but didn't recheck the next day
and on day two. The lugs were under snap cap, and I didn't
see that they were loose. I thought I had a backwards radial
on the other corner, and didn't visually or wrench check the
one that was loosening.

Both of those were my neglect, and I take responsibility.

Several years ago, I had Costco rotate my tires. They're supposed to
use torque wrenches (with the manager checking all work, personally).
A few days later I had the car inspected, without fanfare. A couple
of hours later my wife called me, rather ****ed, saying that a wheel
passed her. Fortunately, she had just gotten off an Interstate and
was on a side-street. The wheel chewed itself up pretty well, broke a
couple of lug nuts, and did some significant damage to the fender on
its way to freedom. No one took responsibility, of course.


Ron White is a comedian. Listen to his true
experience with the "Sears tire technicians"


--
Tekkie