It finally got cold enough at the house to turn on the heat, for the first
time since last winter - and - and - nothing happened.

The heat didn't go on all night, so this is what I saw in the morning:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/1...2b188768_o.gif

I really do not understand how home heating systems work.

I figured I'd start by taking apart the thermostat to see if I can test
if it's giving the right signal to it's Payne 394JAW propane heater:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/1...c9c93247_o.gif

The little mercury bulb appears to work, at least at the extremes:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/1...d6aa35f3_o.gif

And, there's this calibration thingy that seems to be already set:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3796/1...1339eb39_o.gif

But, I couldn't see what I'm supposed to *test* without removing screws:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...ff18c35f_o.gif

Yet, once I removed the three flathead screws, I was met with this!
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/1...d18b3e08_o.gif

May I ask:
Q: How do I test this thermostat to see if it's actually working?

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:27 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
It finally got cold enough at the house to turn on the heat, for the first

time since last winter - and - and - nothing happened.



The heat didn't go on all night, so this is what I saw in the morning:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/1...2b188768_o.gif



I really do not understand how home heating systems work.



I figured I'd start by taking apart the thermostat to see if I can test

if it's giving the right signal to it's Payne 394JAW propane heater:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/1...c9c93247_o.gif



The little mercury bulb appears to work, at least at the extremes:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/1...d6aa35f3_o.gif



And, there's this calibration thingy that seems to be already set:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3796/1...1339eb39_o.gif



But, I couldn't see what I'm supposed to *test* without removing screws:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...ff18c35f_o.gif



Yet, once I removed the three flathead screws, I was met with this!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/1...d18b3e08_o.gif



May I ask:

Q: How do I test this thermostat to see if it's actually working?


The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one. For heating with one stage, which is all that tstat is
capable of, you would have 3 wires: power, heat, fan. While there
is no standard that must be followed, typically red is the power,
white is heat, green is fan. That leaves the blue. What it's doing
there, IDK. If you had AC, I'd say it goes to that.

But, in any case, connecting red to white should fire the furnace.
And connecting red to green should turn the blower on. Given
the simplicity of the tstat, I would suspect it's not the problem.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:27 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
It finally got cold enough at the house to turn on the heat, for the
first

time since last winter - and - and - nothing happened.



The heat didn't go on all night, so this is what I saw in the morning:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/1...2b188768_o.gif



I really do not understand how home heating systems work.



I figured I'd start by taking apart the thermostat to see if I can test

if it's giving the right signal to it's Payne 394JAW propane heater:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/1...c9c93247_o.gif



The little mercury bulb appears to work, at least at the extremes:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/1...d6aa35f3_o.gif



And, there's this calibration thingy that seems to be already set:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3796/1...1339eb39_o.gif



But, I couldn't see what I'm supposed to *test* without removing screws:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...ff18c35f_o.gif



Yet, once I removed the three flathead screws, I was met with this!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/1...d18b3e08_o.gif



May I ask:

Q: How do I test this thermostat to see if it's actually working?


The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one. For heating with one stage, which is all that tstat is
capable of, you would have 3 wires: power, heat, fan. While there
is no standard that must be followed, typically red is the power,
white is heat, green is fan. That leaves the blue. What it's doing
there, IDK. If you had AC, I'd say it goes to that.

But, in any case, connecting red to white should fire the furnace.
And connecting red to green should turn the blower on. Given
the simplicity of the tstat, I would suspect it's not the problem.

The switch in the left side is for cool-off-heat. The blue wire is connected
to the Y terminal for cooling.

Yes, it is a very simple system...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:

The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one.

My fault...

I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.
Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:40:35 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:



The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic

one.



My fault...



I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.

Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

Then I agree with Rick, blue should be for cooling. I saw
something on the left, but I didn't see anything labeled for
cooling vs heating on the thermostat housing and whatever
was sticking out, looked very small. Almost like it was cut
off.

So, hook red to white and the furnace should fire up.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:

The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one.

My fault...

I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.
Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

Hi,
Don't blame 'stat. Have a look at furnace to see if it ignites when
signal is sent from the 'stat. Don't touch that anticipater it is preset
for the furnace. Has nothing to do with problem. Most likely your
problem is in the furnace. What kinda preventative maintenance did you
do during off season?

On 12/10/2013 12:16 PM, wrote:
The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one. For heating with one stage, which is all that tstat is
capable of, you would have 3 wires: power, heat, fan. While there
is no standard that must be followed, typically red is the power,
white is heat, green is fan. That leaves the blue. What it's doing
there, IDK. If you had AC, I'd say it goes to that.

But, in any case, connecting red to white should fire the furnace.
And connecting red to green should turn the blower on. Given
the simplicity of the tstat, I would suspect it's not the problem.

Blue is often the common, or the other side of the transfomer.

I didn't look at Danny's pictures. Simple test
for Tstat is to remove it from the wall. Crank
it cold, and see if there is continutity between
R adn W (should not be). Hot, should be.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/10/2013 12:40 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:

The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one.

My fault...

I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.
Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

Typically, yellow for cooling. But, if the
blue is connected to Y at the air handler,
we're all good.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Danny,

You're testing the wrong things. The thermostat is very unlikely to fail.
Please put the thermostat back together. Now slide the fan button to "on".
Does the fan come on? This will tell you whether there is electricity going
to the furnace (?). What sort of heater are we talking about?

Dave M.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:02:31 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Typically, yellow for cooling. But, if the
blue is connected to Y at the air handler,
we're all good.

Based on this discussion of colors and abbreviations, I took a closer look
and snapped this large-format picture for you to guide me:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...61f28c11_o.gif

As you guys noted, there seem to be 6 labelled attachment points,
with the following 4 wires connected:

R = red wire
W = white wire
G = green wire
Y = blue wire
B = nothing is attached
O = nothing is attached

Is the voltage to be expected a DC or AC voltage?
What's the range? (I'm assuming it's *not* 120VAC!)

What would you use as the ground point for the voltage test?

PS: I will jump the wires, as suggested, but first I want to see
what we have before I jump stuff.

PS: I don't see a fuse, but I do see a resistor.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:43:19 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

You're testing the wrong things. The thermostat is very unlikely to fail.
Please put the thermostat back together. Now slide the fan button to "on".
Does the fan come on? This will tell you whether there is electricity going
to the furnace (?). What sort of heater are we talking about?

I don't know anything about heating systems; so, I was planning on debugging
from the thermostat to the furnace.

The furnace is a Payne 394JAW, built in 1988.

I called Carrier this morning (800-227-7437x4) and asked for a troubleshooting
guide and parts list. They said I had to go to a local dealer, but, they did
send me a document named: 40394dp65-a.pdf, and titled:
Bryant, day night, Payne 394J, Series B, Sizes 030 thru 095, 40394DP6-A 10/15/87
installation, operation, and maintenance instructions
Upflow Gas-Fired, Natural-Draft Furnace, 9 pages
For use in California only
Cancels 40394DP61-A

BTW, where can I post this PDF so you (and others) can see it, as I couldn't
find anything on the web for how to troubleshoot the furnace itself, and the
four companies that Carrier told me to call all told me to take a hike (in
effect). They don't deal with residential consumers, at least not for PDFs
and parts orders.

NOTE: I'll see if I can convert the PDF to JPG so I can post it for you...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:43:19 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

You're testing the wrong things. The thermostat is very unlikely to fail.
Please put the thermostat back together. Now slide the fan button to "on".
Does the fan come on? This will tell you whether there is electricity going
to the furnace (?). What sort of heater are we talking about?

I don't know anything about heating systems; so, I was planning on debugging
from the thermostat to the furnace.

The furnace is a Payne 394JAW, built in 1988.

I called Carrier this morning (800-227-7437x4) and asked for a troubleshooting
guide and parts list. They said I had to go to a local dealer, but, they did
send me a document named: 40394dp65-a.pdf, and titled:
Bryant, day night, Payne 394J, Series B, Sizes 030 thru 095, 40394DP6-A 10/15/87
installation, operation, and maintenance instructions
Upflow Gas-Fired, Natural-Draft Furnace, 9 pages
For use in California only
Cancels 40394DP61-A

BTW, where can I post this PDF so you (and others) can see it, as I couldn't
find anything on the web for how to troubleshoot the furnace itself, and the
four companies that Carrier told me to call all told me to take a hike (in
effect). They don't deal with residential consumers, at least not for PDFs
and parts orders.

NOTE: I'll see if I can convert the PDF to JPG so I can post it for you...

Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message.

http://en.packupload.com/

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:20:34 -0500, Metspitzer wrote:

Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message. http://en.packupload.com/

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I had also just finished converting it to PNG for upload to Flickr:
P1: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...039c1493_o.png
P2: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/1...819ab272_o.png
P3: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/1...09270195_o.png
P4: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/1...792398ca_o.png
P5: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/1...c0dfefb3_o.png
P6: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/1...1f5f9aa7_o.png
P7: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/1...be96421a_o.png
P8: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/1...6c147a7b_o.png
P9: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/1...cdbe4107_o.png

I'll head on down to the furnace after checking the thermostat; but,
I'm tending to agree with you, that the thermostat looks too simple
to be the problem...

Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message. http://en.packupload.com/

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I had also just finished converting it to PNG for upload to Flickr:
P1: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...039c1493_o.png
P2: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/1...819ab272_o.png
P3: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/1...09270195_o.png
P4: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/1...792398ca_o.png
P5: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/1...c0dfefb3_o.png
P6: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/1...1f5f9aa7_o.png
P7: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/1...be96421a_o.png
P8: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/1...6c147a7b_o.png
P9: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/1...cdbe4107_o.png

I'll head on down to the furnace after checking the thermostat; but,
I'm tending to agree with you, that the thermostat looks too simple
to be the problem...


*Based on past experiences with customers, two things I suggest that you
check. Make sure that the disconnect switch for the furnace is on, and make
sure that the service door on the furnace is closed correctly. If the
service door is not closed properly the furnace will not run.

John Grabowski wrote:
Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message. http://en.packupload.com/

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I had also just finished converting it to PNG for upload to Flickr:
P1: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...039c1493_o.png
P2: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/1...819ab272_o.png
P3: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/1...09270195_o.png
P4: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/1...792398ca_o.png
P5: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/1...c0dfefb3_o.png
P6: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/1...1f5f9aa7_o.png
P7: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/1...be96421a_o.png
P8: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/1...6c147a7b_o.png
P9: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/1...cdbe4107_o.png

I'll head on down to the furnace after checking the thermostat; but,
I'm tending to agree with you, that the thermostat looks too simple
to be the problem...


*Based on past experiences with customers, two things I suggest that you
check. Make sure that the disconnect switch for the furnace is on, and
make sure that the service door on the furnace is closed correctly. If
the service door is not closed properly the furnace will not run.
Hmmm,
Your furnace will have terminals marked on the boards; C, W, G, Y(if AC
is present. C is common lead for control power, 24V AC), W is heat lead,
G is fan lead, Y is compressor lead. If you jumper C and W heat with
come on and after some delay fan will start. If you jumper C and G fan
will run. Make ssure the furnace cover interlock switch is cheated with
a piece of tape.(this switch breaks power to the furnace when open)

You can do this jumper test from thermostat terminals too. Do you have
multi meter? Know how to it and read schematics? Fiurnace is just
simple one line logic sequence......

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:43:29 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I was hoping to just debug the (much simpler?) thermostat first, but,
since someone asked about the furnace, I went down there and noticed
the door was off.

When I put the door back, the blower just blew incessantly.

So I took the door back off, and pressed the white switch that gets
pressed when the blower door is on, and the blower just kept blowing
for as long as I held the switch pushed in.

Back upstairs, teh cover is still off the thermostat, so the thermostat
settings are still at HEAT (versus OFF, COOL) and AUTO (versus FAN ON).

This is the schematic printed on the inside of the door panel:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/1...ef8ce342_o.gif

This is another smaller schematic above that big one on the door panel:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/1...27d0a8ef_o.gif

And, this is on the outside of the door, for the electric pilot:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7374/1...44b32818_o.gif

What I'll do right now is read up on the net for how this furnace
works, and the first thing I'll do is try to identify the parts.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:43:29 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I was hoping to just debug the (much simpler?) thermostat first, but,
since someone asked about the furnace, I went down there and noticed
the door was off.

When I put the door back, the blower just blew incessantly.

So I took the door back off, and pressed the white switch that gets
pressed when the blower door is on, and the blower just kept blowing
for as long as I held the switch pushed in.

Back upstairs, teh cover is still off the thermostat, so the thermostat
settings are still at HEAT (versus OFF, COOL) and AUTO (versus FAN ON).

This is the schematic printed on the inside of the door panel:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/1...ef8ce342_o.gif

This is another smaller schematic above that big one on the door panel:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/1...27d0a8ef_o.gif

And, this is on the outside of the door, for the electric pilot:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7374/1...44b32818_o.gif

What I'll do right now is read up on the net for how this furnace
works, and the first thing I'll do is try to identify the parts.

Hi,
Close the cover. And shut the power off to the furnace for 5 mins or so
and turn on the power. What happens now? Still fan comes on? Then we'll
do next step. Usually when hi temp limit switch(fixed temp. thermostat)
triggers furnace flame shuts off and fan runs to cool and when that
switch opens, fan will stop. I don't think your furnace is hot now.
Just maybe thatr switch is stuck close.(this is just one of possible
scenarios)

If this is the case furnace will lock up 2 hours something like that.
By turning power on/off you can defeat that 2 hour wait to try again.
Is it cold there? It is -14C and light snow here today.

Danny,


I went down there and noticed
the door was off.

How did that happen? Who left your furnace open and why?

When I put the door back, the blower just blew incessantly.

Ok, you've got electricity to the furnace. No blown fuses etc.

So I took the door back off, and pressed the white switch that gets
pressed when the blower door is on, and the blower just kept blowing
for as long as I held the switch pushed in.

Back upstairs, teh cover is still off the thermostat, so the thermostat
settings are still at HEAT (versus OFF, COOL) and AUTO (versus FAN ON).

At this point the fan should not be on.

Read section IV of the manual. It explains what should occur and when in
the heating process.
Confirm that you have gas.
Find the furnace switch in your breaker box. Turn it off. Give it a few
minutes. Turn it back on

Dave M.

On 12/10/2013 2:06 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Based on this discussion of colors and abbreviations, I took a closer look
and snapped this large-format picture for you to guide me:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...61f28c11_o.gif

As you guys noted, there seem to be 6 labelled attachment points,
with the following 4 wires connected:

R = red wire
W = white wire
G = green wire
Y = blue wire
B = nothing is attached
O = nothing is attached

Is the voltage to be expected a DC or AC voltage?
SM: Should be 24 VAC. May be as high as 28 VAC, but that's rare.

What's the range? (I'm assuming it's *not* 120VAC!)

What would you use as the ground point for the voltage test?
SM: As with our discussion of lamp timers, this thermostat appears to
only be connected to the "hot" side of the transformer. No common is
found at the stat. with a modern VOM, you can read through a load.


PS: I will jump the wires, as suggested, but first I want to see
what we have before I jump stuff.
CY: That sounds very wise. I'd read R to W, and see what kind of AC
volts you get.


PS: I don't see a fuse, but I do see a resistor.

SM: If there is a fuse, it's inside the furnace. And, yes, there is very
likely to be a fuse on the circuit board. Probably blade fuse, 3 amps.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/10/2013 3:04 PM, John Grabowski wrote:
Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message. http://en.packupload.com/

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I had also just finished converting it to PNG for upload to Flickr:
P1: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...039c1493_o.png
P2: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/1...819ab272_o.png
P3: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/1...09270195_o.png
P4: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/1...792398ca_o.png
P5: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/1...c0dfefb3_o.png
P6: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/1...1f5f9aa7_o.png
P7: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/1...be96421a_o.png
P8: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/1...6c147a7b_o.png
P9: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/1...cdbe4107_o.png

I'll head on down to the furnace after checking the thermostat; but,
I'm tending to agree with you, that the thermostat looks too simple
to be the problem...


*Based on past experiences with customers, two things I suggest that you
check. Make sure that the disconnect switch for the furnace is on, and
make sure that the service door on the furnace is closed correctly. If
the service door is not closed properly the furnace will not run.

So, page eight or nine had trouble shooting. I hope
Danny did those checks.

I tried download the PDF, but the file came through
corrupted. What I was able to see of the PNG, there
is very little troubleshooting information provided.
And precious little about the furnace.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:42:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

SM: Should be 24 VAC. May be as high as 28 VAC, but that's rare.

I got 27 VAC at a whole bunch of those connections.

The problem was I wasn't sure which *two* points to choose in
order to test and debug why the heat wouldn't go on.

For example, I test VAC from the RED wire to what?
I test VAC from the WHITE wire to what?
etc.

Is there a ground on this thing?

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:02:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I tried download the PDF, but the file came through
corrupted.

I googled for the name of the document that Carrier sent me:
40394dp65-a.pdf

This directory came up; which contains a *lot* of furnace PDFs:
http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/gr...ments/techlit/

This one looks to be similar (it's for the 394J where mine is 394JAW):
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp65-a.pdf

This one has an even closer model number (394JAZ where mine is 394JAW):
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...i394j-30-1.pdf

On 12/10/2013 02:04 PM, John Grabowski wrote:
Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message. http://en.packupload.com/



*Based on past experiences with customers, two things I suggest that you
check. Make sure that the disconnect switch for the furnace is on, and
make sure that the service door on the furnace is closed correctly. If
the service door is not closed properly the furnace will not run.



Yep, not likely to be anything wrong with the thermostat.

May be a s simple is the furnace switch is turned off.


It could also be the ignitor if the furnace starts to energize but goes
no further.

On 12/10/2013 5:36 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:42:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

SM: Should be 24 VAC. May be as high as 28 VAC, but that's rare.

I got 27 VAC at a whole bunch of those connections.

The problem was I wasn't sure which *two* points to choose in
order to test and debug why the heat wouldn't go on.

For example, I test VAC from the RED wire to what?
I test VAC from the WHITE wire to what?
etc.

Is there a ground on this thing?

The stat you describe does not have a ground,
or a neutral. It switches the hot wire only.

I strongly sense the problem is not the stat.
Your problem is in the furnace itself.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
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On 12/10/2013 5:51 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:02:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I tried download the PDF, but the file came through
corrupted.

I googled for the name of the document that Carrier sent me:
40394dp65-a.pdf

This directory came up; which contains a *lot* of furnace PDFs:
http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/gr...ments/techlit/

This one looks to be similar (it's for the 394J where mine is 394JAW):
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp65-a.pdf

This one has an even closer model number (394JAZ where mine is 394JAW):
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...i394j-30-1.pdf

I looked at the flicker ping pages, and there's
not much useful information to be had. There was
some troubleshooting, which I hope you read and
tried.

Writtenly lookingish set not appearingly to be
Chingrisher.

--
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Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
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On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 5:36:20 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:42:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:



SM: Should be 24 VAC. May be as high as 28 VAC, but that's rare.



I got 27 VAC at a whole bunch of those connections.



The problem was I wasn't sure which *two* points to choose in

order to test and debug why the heat wouldn't go on.



For example, I test VAC from the RED wire to what?

I test VAC from the WHITE wire to what?

etc.



Is there a ground on this thing?

Turn furnace switch off. Connect the red wire to the white wire.
Turn the furnace switch back on. If the furnace doesn't fire
up, it's not the thermostat. It's unlikely it's the thermostat
to begin with, so why waste time on all kinds of tests when there
is a simple and very direct method?

On 12/10/2013 6:08 PM, wrote:
Turn furnace switch off. Connect the red wire to the white wire.
Turn the furnace switch back on. If the furnace doesn't fire
up, it's not the thermostat. It's unlikely it's the thermostat
to begin with, so why waste time on all kinds of tests when there
is a simple and very direct method?


I think that Danny was an engineer in an earlier
life. He's really a wonderful fellow, and I truly
enjoy his posts to this list.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:12:10 PM UTC-5, David L. Martel wrote:
Danny,





I went down there and noticed

the door was off.



How did that happen? Who left your furnace open and why?



That's a good question. Did it come off at some point in the
diagnostic process or was it off to begin with and the cause
of the whole problem?




When I put the door back, the blower just blew incessantly.



Ok, you've got electricity to the furnace. No blown fuses etc.



So I took the door back off, and pressed the white switch that gets

pressed when the blower door is on, and the blower just kept blowing

for as long as I held the switch pushed in.



Back upstairs, teh cover is still off the thermostat, so the thermostat

settings are still at HEAT (versus OFF, COOL) and AUTO (versus FAN ON).



At this point the fan should not be on.


The fan is probably on because he's been screwing around with the
thermostat and now has something screwed up there.

With a simple old mercury thermostat like that, there isn't
much to fail. I've never seen one that just stopped working.






Read section IV of the manual. It explains what should occur and when in

the heating process.

Confirm that you have gas.

Find the furnace switch in your breaker box. Turn it off. Give it a few

minutes. Turn it back on



Dave M.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:54:54 -0600, philo wrote:

Not likely to be anything wrong with the thermostat.
May be as simple as the furnace switch is turned off.
It could also be the ignitor if the furnace starts to
energize but goes no further..

Ignitor?

I need a quick lesson on the parts of a furnace ... and what
they do, before I can diagnose or fix anything!

At first, I thought "this" was what you call the "igniter":
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2812/1...8e651e36_o.gif

But, this youtube video calls that a "3-wire pilot assembly":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFoVcYpq1p8

Following the red "high tension lead", that video calls this
black box the "spark igniter" (is what you meant?):
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/1...04b85a9f_o.gif

This is clearly what that video calls the "gas valve":
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7358/1...fbde6523_o.gif

This isn't in the video, but, it's clearly some sort of fusible
link and something called a "lockout timer":
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7323/1...56224304_o.gif

The brown board with the fusible link attached has two wires that
go upward to this thing (is it a sensor?), which, unfortunately,
wasn't described in the video:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/1...0de1c8bd_o.gif

This compartment was held shut with a 1/4" sheet-metal screw:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5503/1...351134b4_o.gif

Below that compartment was this set of terminals (I recognize
those wire colors as the same as those of the thermostat):
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/1...e7793ca9_o.gif

To the right of the terminals, this 3Amp fuse tested good:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3759/1...c03444e1_o.gif

Inside the box was what the video named a "fan control board":
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7443/1...bf7cb9e1_o.gif

And, I observed the basic stuff, such as this door safety switch
(which I taped tightly to keep in the on position):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/1...1f88de9a_o.gif

This is the on/off switch for the gas, which remains on:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7295/1...4cc8b179_o.gif

The 16x25x1 3M filter was surprisingly clean:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/1...7ba0ef50_o.gif

Googling, I found there usually is an on/off switch on the
side of the furnace where the power comes in. Mine doesn't
seem to have that switch; the power wires go right inside
the furnace from outside without a switch.

So now that I've identified "most" of the parts (I'm not sure what
the purpose of the lockout timer and that sensor thing are), it's
time for me to figure out what/how to test and debug the thing...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:05:23 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

The stat you describe does not have a ground,
or a neutral. It switches the hot wire only.

Hmmm.... OK. I guess. I'm not used to having a hot
wire and no ground though, simply because you need
*two* points to test a voltage.

I strongly sense the problem is not the stat.
Your problem is in the furnace itself.

Everyone else said the same thing, so, I've actually
buttoned up the thermostat, and moved on to the furnace
itself.

Besides, someone said I can jump whatever needs to be
jumped from down there anyway. Right?
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/1...e7793ca9_o.gif

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:57:28 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

What kinda preventative maintenance did you
do during off season?

Preventive maintenance?

ummm.... embarrassed look ... er .... ummm... ah ...
well I ... er ... I um ... ... well ... I didn't do any.

Given that ...

What *should* I have done in the off season anyway?

On 12/10/2013 02:21 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:43:29 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I was hoping to just debug the (much simpler?) thermostat first, but,
since someone asked about the furnace, I went down there and noticed
the door was off.

When I put the door back, the blower just blew incessantly.

So I took the door back off, and pressed the white switch that gets
pressed when the blower door is on, and the blower just kept blowing
for as long as I held the switch pushed in.





If the blower is working that means the furnace is getting power.

That's as far as you should go.


Unless you know /exactly/ what you are doing, a furnace is one thing you
should not fool with.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:06:51 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I looked at the flicker ping pages, and there's
not much useful information to be had. There was
some troubleshooting, which I hope you read and
tried.

Thanks. I just printed that manual and haven't tried
that troubleshooting yet. It took all this time to
learn how to identify what was there, and I think,
for the most part, I've figured out what most of the
things do.

I'm not yet sure what this thing is (a sensor?):
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/1...0de1c8bd_o.gif

Nor, am I sure why this thing called a Lockout Timer exists:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7323/1...56224304_o.gif

So, I'm taking in the data, bit by bit and will get to the
troubleshooting guide from Carrier.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:02:14 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

furnace problem

http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/gr...0394dp65-a.pdf

1st: Remove furnace access door (effectively cuts off control power).

2nd: Put thermostat back together making sure that all switches are in
the -off- position, and turn the temperature select to its lowest
setting.

3rd: Replace furnace door.


Does the blower immediately turn on still?

If no: Switch thermostat to -heat- and set to highest temperature. Go
back to the furnace and listen. The blower should be running and
in a minute, or so, the burner should kick on. This unit might have
a delay for the blower, so wait 2 minutes before deciding that things
are not functioning. That is it for this part until you come back with
an answer.

If Yes: Either the heating or the cooling relay is sticking. Once again, get back
with an answer.

Anyway, download above link. If it is corrupted, update your PDF reader.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:08:26 -0800, wrote:

Turn furnace switch off.

There is no furnace switch, that I know of.
The wires come directly into the furnace from the outside.
Of course, I can shut off a breaker ...

Connect the red wire to the white wire.
Turn the furnace switch back on.

OK. I have the breakers off. I'll wait a few minutes now.

From another post, before I ruin something, is this correct?
a. Connecting red to white should fire the furnace
b. Connecting red to green should turn the blower on

Is this where I should make those jumper connections?
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/1...e7793ca9_o.gif

BTW, normally I *measure* stuff (voltages usually) before jumping
from one point to another; but I would need to know what *two*
points to measure. Based on Stormin' Mormon's prior post, I'll read:

A. Red to White (AC voltage) ... is this what I should read?
B. Red to Green (AC voltage) ... is this what I should read?

NOTE: I haven't finished reading everything, so, if I'm repeating,
I apologize.

It's unlikely it's the thermostat to begin with, so why waste time
on all kinds of tests when there is a simple and very direct method?

I've buttoned up the thermostat. It just took me a while to report
back because I was trying to figure out how the darn furnace works
and what the parts were...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:31:33 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Is it cold there? It is -14C and light snow here today.

I am in warm clothes, but it's going to be around freezing
in Silicon Valley tonight, so, for *us*, that's coooold!

Yes, I know, that's warm for most of you!

Anyway, I'm reading all the suggestions, and lining up my
ducks, as I am first and foremost trying to figure out how
the darn thing is *supposed* to work.

So, for that, I had to first identify the parts, which,
for the most part, I think I have now.

So, now it's time to try to figure out how the thing is
supposed to work.

And then on to the debugging steps.

I'll report back, as it's getting dark and colder outside
as I type ...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:12:10 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

How did that happen? Who left your furnace open and why?

Dunno. But, I probably went down there. I think I remember, in
the hot days of summer, it was up to about 95 or so here in
the Silicon Valley, that the A/C didn't work.

So, I think, IIRC, I opened the door. Stared. Stared some more.
Stared a bit more. And I must have left it with the door open.

Still don't know why the A/C didn't work - but that's long ago
now, and it's time to figure out why the heat doesn't work.

I'm still catching up on all the reading, so, I apologize if
I'm slow to get back to you on the troubleshooting ...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:10:46 -0600, philo wrote:

If the blower is working that means the furnace is getting power.
Unless you know /exactly/ what you are doing, a furnace is one thing
you should not fool with.

The fact that I assume 120 volts (and whatever the high-tension leads
have in them) is there, is the key reason why I'm not just jumping
leads just yet.

I want to *measure* first. That's not dangerous. Jumping things is
much more dangerous (if I make a mistake).

So, at the moment, I concentrated first on identifying all the parts
of the furnace (which I snapped a picture of and posted separately).

Then, I am concentrating on figuring out how those parts play together.

After that, I'll do the measuring.

And then the jumping.

I'm sorry I'm probably way slower than you guys would like, but, I'm
trying to actually understand the darn thing first ... Thanks for
your patience. I've still got to read that Carrier manual ...

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:12:10 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

How did that happen? Who left your furnace open and why?

Dunno. But, I probably went down there. I think I remember, in
the hot days of summer, it was up to about 95 or so here in
the Silicon Valley, that the A/C didn't work.

So, I think, IIRC, I opened the door. Stared. Stared some more.
Stared a bit more. And I must have left it with the door open.

Still don't know why the A/C didn't work - but that's long ago
now, and it's time to figure out why the heat doesn't work.

I'm still catching up on all the reading, so, I apologize if
I'm slow to get back to you on the troubleshooting ...


Was the blower running at this time?

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:10:46 -0600, philo wrote:

If the blower is working that means the furnace is getting power.
Unless you know /exactly/ what you are doing, a furnace is one thing
you should not fool with.

The fact that I assume 120 volts (and whatever the high-tension leads
have in them) is there, is the key reason why I'm not just jumping
leads just yet.

I want to *measure* first. That's not dangerous. Jumping things is
much more dangerous (if I make a mistake).

So, at the moment, I concentrated first on identifying all the parts
of the furnace (which I snapped a picture of and posted separately).

Then, I am concentrating on figuring out how those parts play together.

After that, I'll do the measuring.

And then the jumping.

I'm sorry I'm probably way slower than you guys would like, but, I'm
trying to actually understand the darn thing first ... Thanks for
your patience. I've still got to read that Carrier manual ...

Hi,
Jumping is involved with 24V AC control voltage. Not dangerous.
Let me ask you, can you read schematics? Can you id. parts in the
furnace like piezo ignitor, limit switches(some are NO, some are NC),
do you understand relay logic? First thing I suggested you was to reset
the furnace by powering it off/on. Gently tap all the relays you can
see. Am\nother issue may be you may have messed up the 'stat when you
open it and reassembled. We're going around same routine when you had
alarm trouble wating lot of time.