On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Well, she's running hot now:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...

She ain't being efficient, maybe.

On 12/11/2013 4:34 PM, Oren wrote:


A good news story here.

"RENO — A desperate search for a couple and four children missing for
two days in the below-zero cold of Northern Nevada’s rugged mountains
turned jubilant Tuesday when rescuers found them alive and well near
their overturned Jeep.

- See more at:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/6-missing-two-days-freezing-northern-nevada-found-safe#sthash.umXCi46M.dpuf

The man burned his spare tire, heated rocks and kept the family warm
in his overturned vehicle.


They ought have had some survival supplies. They had common sense.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/11/2013 4:52 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Well, she's running hot now:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...

She ain't being efficient, maybe.

Wonder why burners 1 and 3, flame tips right and left?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:45:56 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:15:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

Um, "Ignition Lockout Timer"? Isn't it to turn off the gas for a
duration when the furnace fails to fire? Reduces gas from filling the
space - until gas has dissipated, so you don't blown the roof off the
house?

I don't understand *what* it does yet.
Sure, it's called a "lockout timer", so it locks out the gas, I guess.
But, how does it figure out when/if to lock out?

All I can tell, so far, is that it's a normally open SPST switch.
http://www.lennoxproducts.com/wp-con.../HH72CH003.pdf

Above my skills here. So bottom of that page.

Thermostat:

The igniter will not spark if the gas valve is not opened by the pilot
switch - operated by the lockout timer.

Do not take my advise.

Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:54:23 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 4:34 PM, Oren wrote:


A good news story here.

"RENO — A desperate search for a couple and four children missing for
two days in the below-zero cold of Northern Nevada’s rugged mountains
turned jubilant Tuesday when rescuers found them alive and well near
their overturned Jeep.

- See more at:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/6-missing-two-days-freezing-northern-nevada-found-safe#sthash.umXCi46M.dpuf

The man burned his spare tire, heated rocks and kept the family warm
in his overturned vehicle.


They ought have had some survival supplies. They had common sense.

They had some basic items. Just not the tools to turn the vehicle on
its wheels to drive home. What would you suggest for that situation?

The trip was to let the children play in the snow, not turn upside
down in the process.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:03:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 4:52 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Well, she's running hot now:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...

She ain't being efficient, maybe.

Wonder why burners 1 and 3, flame tips right and left?

I thought the same when looking. At least they look to be burning the
blue/white color, not the one on the far right.

Must be a way to adjust them into the correct orientation?

On 12/11/2013 5:40 PM, Oren wrote:

They ought have had some survival supplies. They had common sense.

They had some basic items. Just not the tools to turn the vehicle on
its wheels to drive home. What would you suggest for that situation?

The trip was to let the children play in the snow, not turn upside
down in the process.

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.
propane heater for inside. Maybe a bunch of black
sheeting to spread out. Real shame they got into
bad way, and flipped the vehicle over.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:36:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:55:24 -0800, Oren wrote:

I'm of no help here.

I was wondering where you were!

Normally, your huckleberries are spot on the mark!

"freezing is the reason"

I've been on pipe and pool pump patrol vigils for the last week.

It gets cold in the desert.

My furnace was serviced early in the fall by the tech guy

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:03:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 4:52 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Well, she's running hot now:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...

She ain't being efficient, maybe.

Wonder why burners 1 and 3, flame tips right and left?

I thought the same when looking. At least they look to be burning the
blue/white color, not the one on the far right.

Must be a way to adjust them into the correct orientation?

They should have adjustable shutters....

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:59:25 -0500, "Rick"
wrote:


"Oren" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:03:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 4:52 PM, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Well, she's running hot now:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...

She ain't being efficient, maybe.

Wonder why burners 1 and 3, flame tips right and left?

I thought the same when looking. At least they look to be burning the
blue/white color, not the one on the far right.

Must be a way to adjust them into the correct orientation?

They should have adjustable shutters....

Looks like there is in the photo. The right side could still be
needing the orifice cleaned. Restricted fuel flow? It should not be
burning with an orange glow, IMHO.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/11/2013 5:40 PM, Oren wrote:

They ought have had some survival supplies. They had common sense.

They had some basic items. Just not the tools to turn the vehicle on
its wheels to drive home. What would you suggest for that situation?

The trip was to let the children play in the snow, not turn upside
down in the process.

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.
propane heater for inside. Maybe a bunch of black
sheeting to spread out. Real shame they got into
bad way, and flipped the vehicle over.


Do have all of that in your vehicles?

This could be you...just head west a few miles.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/02/new.york.snow/

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:53:42 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 5:40 PM, Oren wrote:

They ought have had some survival supplies. They had common sense.

They had some basic items. Just not the tools to turn the vehicle on
its wheels to drive home. What would you suggest for that situation?

The trip was to let the children play in the snow, not turn upside
down in the process.

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.
propane heater for inside. Maybe a bunch of black
sheeting to spread out. Real shame they got into
bad way, and flipped the vehicle over.

If, when, and maybe all you like. In Nevada you can die in the
dessert within seeing distance a residential housing community.

People venture out on adventures and do not know much of what can kill
them.

In this instant case, the man "done good".

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:11:47 -0800, Oren wrote:

The igniter will not spark if the gas valve is not opened by the pilot
switch - operated by the lockout timer.

It seems that only the propane retrofits have this lockout timer.
Apparently, the heaters are originally made for LPG.
When they're converted to Propane, they apparently add the lockout timer.

Apparently propane gas has qualities that require that lockout timer
so that the gas is evacuated from the passageways.

That's all I know, so far (or think I know).

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:27:38 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd live there. Except for the politics.

Yeah. They call taxes "fees" out here so that they don't need
a super majority to pass them. The people out here are too stupid
(politically) to even notice.

They outlaw basically everything; again, the people here are too
stupid to notice.

It's a weird state - but - the weather is excellent - if we could
just get rid of the politically dumb inhabitants....

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:52:09 -0800, Oren wrote:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...
She ain't being efficient, maybe.

Hmmm... I have no idea what an efficient flame looks like.
Am I supposed to adjust the flame somehow?

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:03:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Wonder why burners 1 and 3, flame tips right and left?

It's interesting that you noticed that ... I will take a look to see
what's going on. I personally don't have a clue as to why, or, if it
is indicative of something ...

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:40:47 -0800, Oren wrote:

They ought have had some survival supplies. They had common sense.

They had some basic items. Just not the tools to turn the vehicle on
its wheels to drive home. What would you suggest for that situation?

A high lift jack can be used as a come-along and a great many Jeepers
carry one. Likewise a winch with a stout cable is common equipment. At
least a towing strap, bad as that is for towing. If all else is
missing, the jack and some decent rope.

The trip was to let the children play in the snow, not turn upside
down in the process.

**** happens. Good intentions don't change anything.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:53:42 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.

The jeep has a rear view mirror on the windsheild and one on each
door. A minimal tool set will remove either intact. Failing that, any
of them can be yanked off.

propane heater for inside.

Jeeps are surprisingly small. Two adults and two kids doesn't leave
much "throw room" for a heater.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:41:04 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03 wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.
propane heater for inside. Maybe a bunch of black
sheeting to spread out. Real shame they got into
bad way, and flipped the vehicle over.


Do have all of that in your vehicles?

In my Wrangler, yes. Except instead of a heater, I have warm clothes,
blankets, a sleeping bag and a sleeping bag liner. Conservation of
heat is much easier, safer, and longer lasting than creating heat from
a bottle.

On 12/11/2013 7:27 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

It seems that only the propane retrofits have this lockout timer.
Apparently, the heaters are originally made for LPG.
When they're converted to Propane, they apparently add the lockout timer.

Apparently propane gas has qualities that require that lockout timer
so that the gas is evacuated from the passageways.

That's all I know, so far (or think I know).

I thought LPG (liquid petroleum gas) and propane were the same?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:30:40 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:52:09 -0800, Oren wrote:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...
She ain't being efficient, maybe.

Hmmm... I have no idea what an efficient flame looks like.

A good one would be bright blue. Not likely to get it white hot. Even
on a stove top you may see the orange color. Not always a worry, but
the fuel is not burning efficiently.

Am I supposed to adjust the flame somehow?

I'd inspect the orifices for blockages - lack of fuel. Adjust the air
vent allowance on the burner. A combination of the two.

That right side burner should not burn orange, for efficiency reasons.

On 12/11/2013 7:29 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:27:38 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd live there [California]. Except for the politics.

Yeah. They call taxes "fees" out here so that they don't need
a super majority to pass them. The people out here are too stupid
(politically) to even notice.

They outlaw basically everything; again, the people here are too
stupid to notice.

It's a weird state - but - the weather is excellent - if we could
just get rid of the politically dumb inhabitants....


Are illegal Mexicans a protected class, there?
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/11/2013 7:30 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:52:09 -0800, Oren wrote:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Why is one flame orange? Is the orifice dirty (right side)...
She ain't being efficient, maybe.

Hmmm... I have no idea what an efficient flame looks like.
Am I supposed to adjust the flame somehow?

Blue flame is desired. Orange suggests some
thing mixed in with the flame. Rust, maybe.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/11/2013 7:35 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:03:47 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Wonder why burners 1 and 3, flame tips right and left?

It's interesting that you noticed that ... I will take a look to see
what's going on. I personally don't have a clue as to why, or, if it
is indicative of something ...

My guess is, that the tubes that carry the
gas air mix into the burner box are tilted.
And that burner 4, is full of rust.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/11/2013 6:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.
propane heater for inside. Maybe a bunch of black
sheeting to spread out. Real shame they got into
bad way, and flipped the vehicle over.


Do have all of that in your vehicles?

This could be you...just head west a few miles.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/02/new.york.snow/

Most of that. Yes, that was some killer storm. I
don't have black sheeting, but I do have the rest
of my list.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:40 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 7:27 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

It seems that only the propane retrofits have this lockout timer.
Apparently, the heaters are originally made for LPG.
When they're converted to Propane, they apparently add the lockout timer.

Apparently propane gas has qualities that require that lockout timer
so that the gas is evacuated from the passageways.

That's all I know, so far (or think I know).

I thought LPG (liquid petroleum gas) and propane were the same?
They were made for natural gas, which is lighter than air and
dissipates in event of accidental release, while propane (lpg) is
heavier than air and settles in the low spots - so the lockout timer
is used to prevent ignition before the possible accumulated gas is
dissipated.

On 12/11/2013 6:41 PM, Oren wrote:

If, when, and maybe all you like. In Nevada you can die in the
dessert within seeing distance a residential housing community.

People venture out on adventures and do not know much of what can kill
them.

In this instant case, the man "done good".

I don't doubt that things can easily be lethal.
I'm glad that they made it some how, and that
the searchers were able to find them. Would be
nice if someone had a helecopter mounted phone
box, that could talk to a handset on the ground.



--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...


K.Y. and Easy Entry? :-)

That could be the butt of jokes.


Quit being so anal.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:33:21 -0700, Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:40:47 -0800, Oren wrote:

They ought have had some survival supplies. They had common sense.

They had some basic items. Just not the tools to turn the vehicle on
its wheels to drive home. What would you suggest for that situation?

A high lift jack can be used as a come-along and a great many Jeepers
carry one. Likewise a winch with a stout cable is common equipment. At
least a towing strap, bad as that is for towing. If all else is
missing, the jack and some decent rope.

Well, if you had lots of rope, a couple of come-alongs, and a nice
stout tree or two nearby.... oops


The trip was to let the children play in the snow, not turn upside
down in the process.

**** happens. Good intentions don't change anything.

They said the parents were taking the kids out to play in the snow.
Why the hell didn't they go to the city park? What were they doing
miles out in the high desert in near zero temperatures with four small
children? All in all Dad did ok, but the best preparation for a
crisis is to be sure you don't get in that situation in the first
place.

On 12/11/2013 9:36 PM, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...


K.Y. and Easy Entry? :-)

That could be the butt of jokes.


Quit being so anal.

I can't help but hang onto things.
Up yours!
Butt out.
That was slick!

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:27:29 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:11:47 -0800, Oren wrote:

The igniter will not spark if the gas valve is not opened by the pilot
switch - operated by the lockout timer.

It seems that only the propane retrofits have this lockout timer.
Apparently, the heaters are originally made for LPG.
When they're converted to Propane, they apparently add the lockout timer.

Apparently propane gas has qualities that require that lockout timer
so that the gas is evacuated from the passageways.

That's all I know, so far (or think I know).

I can't say.

My gas furnace will not open the gas valve unless things are
operational for safety reasons so the space is not filled with gas
before ignition and the room blows the roof off.

Think of it as controlled Chaos

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.

Most cars come equipped with several signal mirrors. If the thing is on its
back with its paws in the air, ripping a mirror off is the least of your
worries.

"Danny D." wrote in message ...
Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf


Actually, the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber with
propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter. The timer has a manual reset.
Something else for you to keep track of in case the unit does not start.

This timer is only for the use with LPG (propane). One of the reasons I disagree with
the installation manual's statement to discard the old parts. It would be preferable to
keep the old in a bag, with instructions, so that the unit may easily be converted back
to natural gas. In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat. Cheaper to operate.

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:32:47 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).


Sounds just like a NG operation - cuts the fuel to prevent
explosions? Before ignition.

You could burn your eyebrows off

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


"Danny D." wrote in message ...
Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf


Actually, the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber with
propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter. The timer has a manual reset.
Something else for you to keep track of in case the unit does not start.

This timer is only for the use with LPG (propane). One of the reasons I disagree with
the installation manual's statement to discard the old parts. It would be preferable to
keep the old in a bag, with instructions, so that the unit may easily be converted back
to natural gas. In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat. Cheaper to operate.

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)
Having the timer on for Natural Gas would most likely not be an
issue - just not REQUIRED, like it is for Propane.

On 12/11/2013 10:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.

Most cars come equipped with several signal mirrors. If the thing is on its
back with its paws in the air, ripping a mirror off is the least of your
worries.

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find. Being able
to aim it, is really nice. I had a lead on them
for a while, and ought to try and find a couple
more.

Can also rip out the seats for signal fire
material. When you get to the point of "the
truck is scrap, it's no longer of use" there
are plastic and all that can be burned.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 12/11/2013 9:36 PM, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...


K.Y. and Easy Entry? :-)

That could be the butt of jokes.


Quit being so anal.

I can't help but hang onto things.


Fargin' dangleberry. :-)

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:32:47 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf

The interesting thing is that this lockout timer isn't needed for the
non-propane gas burners. Propane, apparently, is different that way, for a
reason I'm still trying to ascertain.

But, here's one description of what it does:

http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
During normal operation, if the pilot flame is not proven within approximately
*30 seconds*, the lockout timer opens, de-energizing the gas valve and stopping
the gas flow to the pilot. The lockout timer will remain open until it is
manually reset".

Notice the time period is hugely different in this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf
"During normal operation, if the pilot flame is not proven within approximately
*5 minutes*, the lockout timer opens, deenergizing the gas valve and stopping
the gas flow to the pilot. The lockout timer will remain open until it is
manually reset".

In summary, the lockout timer apparently shuts the system down if the pilot
flame isn't proven in the allotted time frame.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:40 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I thought LPG (liquid petroleum gas) and propane were the same?

I probably am confused.

Whatever gas the furnace was originally intended, is a different
gas than propane, such that, if the furnace is converted to propane,
this lockout timer is needed.