It finally got cold enough at the house to turn on the heat, for the first
time since last winter - and - and - nothing happened.

The heat didn't go on all night, so this is what I saw in the morning:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/1...2b188768_o.gif

I really do not understand how home heating systems work.

I figured I'd start by taking apart the thermostat to see if I can test
if it's giving the right signal to it's Payne 394JAW propane heater:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/1...c9c93247_o.gif

The little mercury bulb appears to work, at least at the extremes:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/1...d6aa35f3_o.gif

And, there's this calibration thingy that seems to be already set:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3796/1...1339eb39_o.gif

But, I couldn't see what I'm supposed to *test* without removing screws:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...ff18c35f_o.gif

Yet, once I removed the three flathead screws, I was met with this!
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/1...d18b3e08_o.gif

May I ask:
Q: How do I test this thermostat to see if it's actually working?

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:27 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
It finally got cold enough at the house to turn on the heat, for the first

time since last winter - and - and - nothing happened.



The heat didn't go on all night, so this is what I saw in the morning:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/1...2b188768_o.gif



I really do not understand how home heating systems work.



I figured I'd start by taking apart the thermostat to see if I can test

if it's giving the right signal to it's Payne 394JAW propane heater:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/1...c9c93247_o.gif



The little mercury bulb appears to work, at least at the extremes:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/1...d6aa35f3_o.gif



And, there's this calibration thingy that seems to be already set:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3796/1...1339eb39_o.gif



But, I couldn't see what I'm supposed to *test* without removing screws:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...ff18c35f_o.gif



Yet, once I removed the three flathead screws, I was met with this!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/1...d18b3e08_o.gif



May I ask:

Q: How do I test this thermostat to see if it's actually working?


The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one. For heating with one stage, which is all that tstat is
capable of, you would have 3 wires: power, heat, fan. While there
is no standard that must be followed, typically red is the power,
white is heat, green is fan. That leaves the blue. What it's doing
there, IDK. If you had AC, I'd say it goes to that.

But, in any case, connecting red to white should fire the furnace.
And connecting red to green should turn the blower on. Given
the simplicity of the tstat, I would suspect it's not the problem.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:54:27 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
It finally got cold enough at the house to turn on the heat, for the
first

time since last winter - and - and - nothing happened.



The heat didn't go on all night, so this is what I saw in the morning:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7419/1...2b188768_o.gif



I really do not understand how home heating systems work.



I figured I'd start by taking apart the thermostat to see if I can test

if it's giving the right signal to it's Payne 394JAW propane heater:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/1...c9c93247_o.gif



The little mercury bulb appears to work, at least at the extremes:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2837/1...d6aa35f3_o.gif



And, there's this calibration thingy that seems to be already set:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3796/1...1339eb39_o.gif



But, I couldn't see what I'm supposed to *test* without removing screws:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7452/1...ff18c35f_o.gif



Yet, once I removed the three flathead screws, I was met with this!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/1...d18b3e08_o.gif



May I ask:

Q: How do I test this thermostat to see if it's actually working?


The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one. For heating with one stage, which is all that tstat is
capable of, you would have 3 wires: power, heat, fan. While there
is no standard that must be followed, typically red is the power,
white is heat, green is fan. That leaves the blue. What it's doing
there, IDK. If you had AC, I'd say it goes to that.

But, in any case, connecting red to white should fire the furnace.
And connecting red to green should turn the blower on. Given
the simplicity of the tstat, I would suspect it's not the problem.

The switch in the left side is for cool-off-heat. The blue wire is connected
to the Y terminal for cooling.

Yes, it is a very simple system...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:

The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one.

My fault...

I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.
Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 12:40:35 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:



The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic

one.



My fault...



I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.

Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

Then I agree with Rick, blue should be for cooling. I saw
something on the left, but I didn't see anything labeled for
cooling vs heating on the thermostat housing and whatever
was sticking out, looked very small. Almost like it was cut
off.

So, hook red to white and the furnace should fire up.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:

The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one.

My fault...

I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.
Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

Hi,
Don't blame 'stat. Have a look at furnace to see if it ignites when
signal is sent from the 'stat. Don't touch that anticipater it is preset
for the furnace. Has nothing to do with problem. Most likely your
problem is in the furnace. What kinda preventative maintenance did you
do during off season?

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:57:28 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

What kinda preventative maintenance did you
do during off season?

Preventive maintenance?

ummm.... embarrassed look ... er .... ummm... ah ...
well I ... er ... I um ... ... well ... I didn't do any.

Given that ...

What *should* I have done in the off season anyway?

On 12/10/2013 12:40 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:16:34 -0800, wrote:

The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one.

My fault...

I should have mentioned that the thermostat also controls the A/C.
Here is a picture showing the "COOL" setting:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/1...33aae09d_o.gif

Typically, yellow for cooling. But, if the
blue is connected to Y at the air handler,
we're all good.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:02:31 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Typically, yellow for cooling. But, if the
blue is connected to Y at the air handler,
we're all good.

Based on this discussion of colors and abbreviations, I took a closer look
and snapped this large-format picture for you to guide me:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...61f28c11_o.gif

As you guys noted, there seem to be 6 labelled attachment points,
with the following 4 wires connected:

R = red wire
W = white wire
G = green wire
Y = blue wire
B = nothing is attached
O = nothing is attached

Is the voltage to be expected a DC or AC voltage?
What's the range? (I'm assuming it's *not* 120VAC!)

What would you use as the ground point for the voltage test?

PS: I will jump the wires, as suggested, but first I want to see
what we have before I jump stuff.

PS: I don't see a fuse, but I do see a resistor.

On 12/10/2013 2:06 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Based on this discussion of colors and abbreviations, I took a closer look
and snapped this large-format picture for you to guide me:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...61f28c11_o.gif

As you guys noted, there seem to be 6 labelled attachment points,
with the following 4 wires connected:

R = red wire
W = white wire
G = green wire
Y = blue wire
B = nothing is attached
O = nothing is attached

Is the voltage to be expected a DC or AC voltage?
SM: Should be 24 VAC. May be as high as 28 VAC, but that's rare.

What's the range? (I'm assuming it's *not* 120VAC!)

What would you use as the ground point for the voltage test?
SM: As with our discussion of lamp timers, this thermostat appears to
only be connected to the "hot" side of the transformer. No common is
found at the stat. with a modern VOM, you can read through a load.


PS: I will jump the wires, as suggested, but first I want to see
what we have before I jump stuff.
CY: That sounds very wise. I'd read R to W, and see what kind of AC
volts you get.


PS: I don't see a fuse, but I do see a resistor.

SM: If there is a fuse, it's inside the furnace. And, yes, there is very
likely to be a fuse on the circuit board. Probably blade fuse, 3 amps.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/10/2013 12:16 PM, wrote:
The photos appear to show a heating only thermostat, a very basic
one. For heating with one stage, which is all that tstat is
capable of, you would have 3 wires: power, heat, fan. While there
is no standard that must be followed, typically red is the power,
white is heat, green is fan. That leaves the blue. What it's doing
there, IDK. If you had AC, I'd say it goes to that.

But, in any case, connecting red to white should fire the furnace.
And connecting red to green should turn the blower on. Given
the simplicity of the tstat, I would suspect it's not the problem.

Blue is often the common, or the other side of the transfomer.

I didn't look at Danny's pictures. Simple test
for Tstat is to remove it from the wall. Crank
it cold, and see if there is continutity between
R adn W (should not be). Hot, should be.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Danny,

You're testing the wrong things. The thermostat is very unlikely to fail.
Please put the thermostat back together. Now slide the fan button to "on".
Does the fan come on? This will tell you whether there is electricity going
to the furnace (?). What sort of heater are we talking about?

Dave M.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:43:19 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

You're testing the wrong things. The thermostat is very unlikely to fail.
Please put the thermostat back together. Now slide the fan button to "on".
Does the fan come on? This will tell you whether there is electricity going
to the furnace (?). What sort of heater are we talking about?

I don't know anything about heating systems; so, I was planning on debugging
from the thermostat to the furnace.

The furnace is a Payne 394JAW, built in 1988.

I called Carrier this morning (800-227-7437x4) and asked for a troubleshooting
guide and parts list. They said I had to go to a local dealer, but, they did
send me a document named: 40394dp65-a.pdf, and titled:
Bryant, day night, Payne 394J, Series B, Sizes 030 thru 095, 40394DP6-A 10/15/87
installation, operation, and maintenance instructions
Upflow Gas-Fired, Natural-Draft Furnace, 9 pages
For use in California only
Cancels 40394DP61-A

BTW, where can I post this PDF so you (and others) can see it, as I couldn't
find anything on the web for how to troubleshoot the furnace itself, and the
four companies that Carrier told me to call all told me to take a hike (in
effect). They don't deal with residential consumers, at least not for PDFs
and parts orders.

NOTE: I'll see if I can convert the PDF to JPG so I can post it for you...

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:17:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:43:19 -0500, David L. Martel wrote:

You're testing the wrong things. The thermostat is very unlikely to fail.
Please put the thermostat back together. Now slide the fan button to "on".
Does the fan come on? This will tell you whether there is electricity going
to the furnace (?). What sort of heater are we talking about?

I don't know anything about heating systems; so, I was planning on debugging
from the thermostat to the furnace.

The furnace is a Payne 394JAW, built in 1988.

I called Carrier this morning (800-227-7437x4) and asked for a troubleshooting
guide and parts list. They said I had to go to a local dealer, but, they did
send me a document named: 40394dp65-a.pdf, and titled:
Bryant, day night, Payne 394J, Series B, Sizes 030 thru 095, 40394DP6-A 10/15/87
installation, operation, and maintenance instructions
Upflow Gas-Fired, Natural-Draft Furnace, 9 pages
For use in California only
Cancels 40394DP61-A

BTW, where can I post this PDF so you (and others) can see it, as I couldn't
find anything on the web for how to troubleshoot the furnace itself, and the
four companies that Carrier told me to call all told me to take a hike (in
effect). They don't deal with residential consumers, at least not for PDFs
and parts orders.

NOTE: I'll see if I can convert the PDF to JPG so I can post it for you...

Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message.

http://en.packupload.com/

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:20:34 -0500, Metspitzer wrote:

Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message. http://en.packupload.com/

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I had also just finished converting it to PNG for upload to Flickr:
P1: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...039c1493_o.png
P2: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/1...819ab272_o.png
P3: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/1...09270195_o.png
P4: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/1...792398ca_o.png
P5: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/1...c0dfefb3_o.png
P6: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/1...1f5f9aa7_o.png
P7: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/1...be96421a_o.png
P8: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/1...6c147a7b_o.png
P9: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/1...cdbe4107_o.png

I'll head on down to the furnace after checking the thermostat; but,
I'm tending to agree with you, that the thermostat looks too simple
to be the problem...

Just upload it here and you will get a URL you can post in a text
message. http://en.packupload.com/

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I had also just finished converting it to PNG for upload to Flickr:
P1: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...039c1493_o.png
P2: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/1...819ab272_o.png
P3: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3782/1...09270195_o.png
P4: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5524/1...792398ca_o.png
P5: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5488/1...c0dfefb3_o.png
P6: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/1...1f5f9aa7_o.png
P7: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5496/1...be96421a_o.png
P8: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2892/1...6c147a7b_o.png
P9: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/1...cdbe4107_o.png

I'll head on down to the furnace after checking the thermostat; but,
I'm tending to agree with you, that the thermostat looks too simple
to be the problem...


*Based on past experiences with customers, two things I suggest that you
check. Make sure that the disconnect switch for the furnace is on, and make
sure that the service door on the furnace is closed correctly. If the
service door is not closed properly the furnace will not run.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:43:29 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

OK. Here is the 9-page Payne 394 JAW PDF that Carrier sent me today:
http://en.packupload.com/085CHEN6AJG

I was hoping to just debug the (much simpler?) thermostat first, but,
since someone asked about the furnace, I went down there and noticed
the door was off.

When I put the door back, the blower just blew incessantly.

So I took the door back off, and pressed the white switch that gets
pressed when the blower door is on, and the blower just kept blowing
for as long as I held the switch pushed in.

Back upstairs, teh cover is still off the thermostat, so the thermostat
settings are still at HEAT (versus OFF, COOL) and AUTO (versus FAN ON).

This is the schematic printed on the inside of the door panel:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/1...ef8ce342_o.gif

This is another smaller schematic above that big one on the door panel:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/1...27d0a8ef_o.gif

And, this is on the outside of the door, for the electric pilot:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7374/1...44b32818_o.gif

What I'll do right now is read up on the net for how this furnace
works, and the first thing I'll do is try to identify the parts.

.... is the furnace even on?

On 12/10/2013 7:38 PM, Daring Dufas : A Sock Of Killer Loon wrote:
... is the furnace even on?


Killer Loon, living proof that human females should never have sex with
farm animals. ^_^

TDD

Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf

"Danny D." wrote in message ...
Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf


Actually, the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber with
propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter. The timer has a manual reset.
Something else for you to keep track of in case the unit does not start.

This timer is only for the use with LPG (propane). One of the reasons I disagree with
the installation manual's statement to discard the old parts. It would be preferable to
keep the old in a bag, with instructions, so that the unit may easily be converted back
to natural gas. In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat. Cheaper to operate.

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


"Danny D." wrote in message ...
Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf


Actually, the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber with
propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter. The timer has a manual reset.
Something else for you to keep track of in case the unit does not start.

This timer is only for the use with LPG (propane). One of the reasons I disagree with
the installation manual's statement to discard the old parts. It would be preferable to
keep the old in a bag, with instructions, so that the unit may easily be converted back
to natural gas. In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat. Cheaper to operate.

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)
Having the timer on for Natural Gas would most likely not be an
issue - just not REQUIRED, like it is for Propane.

wrote in message ...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


"Danny D." wrote in message ...
Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf


Actually, the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber with
propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter. The timer has a manual reset.
Something else for you to keep track of in case the unit does not start.

This timer is only for the use with LPG (propane). One of the reasons I disagree with
the installation manual's statement to discard the old parts. It would be preferable to
keep the old in a bag, with instructions, so that the unit may easily be converted back
to natural gas. In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat. Cheaper to operate.

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)
Having the timer on for Natural Gas would most likely not be an
issue - just not REQUIRED, like it is for Propane.

True, but one still needs the orifices. Swap out the orifices plus MGV spring, then swap a
few wires and the system is 100% NG. The wiring takes about 2 minutes (if one is slow).
Some tweaking on the MGV output will be necessary, too...

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:22:45 -0500, clare wrote:

Having the timer on for Natural Gas would most likely not be an
issue - just not REQUIRED, like it is for Propane.

Good to know.

I was wondering why it wasn't there for NG, but *only* for propane.

The discussion revolved around the fact that NG was lighter than
air, yet, propane wasn't. So it filled the room differently.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber
with propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter.

Finally this lockout timer makes sense. If the pilot doesn't light, and if the
gas is propane, which is heavier than air, the timer times open, so that the
leaked propane isn't ignited. Makes sense now.

However, I would think NG would still have the same problem, even though
it's lighter than air, if it filled a room.

In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Interesting. I have no idea what the difference is, but, as you noted, I don't
have a choice since trucks deliver the propane to my tank outside.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:41:03 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

Finally this lockout timer makes sense. If the pilot doesn't light, and if the
gas is propane, which is heavier than air, the timer times open, so that the
leaked propane isn't ignited. Makes sense now.

Even on my NG furnace, the unit will not fire until the gas is able to
flow and ignite. A safety feature to prevent gas accumulation and
explosion....I think.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)

.... and then go change the flat tire on the truck, come back, sit on
your knee and firmly state why she is leaving

"Oren" wrote in message news
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)

... and then go change the flat tire on the truck, come back, sit on
your knee and firmly state why she is leaving

Hey, if she does not do the small things in life, anymore, then it is time
to trade the starter wife in and get an upgrade. :-)

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:32:47 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).


Sounds just like a NG operation - cuts the fuel to prevent
explosions? Before ignition.

You could burn your eyebrows off

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:32:47 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf

The interesting thing is that this lockout timer isn't needed for the
non-propane gas burners. Propane, apparently, is different that way, for a
reason I'm still trying to ascertain.

But, here's one description of what it does:

http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
During normal operation, if the pilot flame is not proven within approximately
*30 seconds*, the lockout timer opens, de-energizing the gas valve and stopping
the gas flow to the pilot. The lockout timer will remain open until it is
manually reset".

Notice the time period is hugely different in this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf
"During normal operation, if the pilot flame is not proven within approximately
*5 minutes*, the lockout timer opens, deenergizing the gas valve and stopping
the gas flow to the pilot. The lockout timer will remain open until it is
manually reset".

In summary, the lockout timer apparently shuts the system down if the pilot
flame isn't proven in the allotted time frame.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:33:00 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

The interesting thing is that this lockout timer isn't needed for the
non-propane gas burners. Propane, apparently, is different that way, for a
reason I'm still trying to ascertain.

From what people said, propane is apparently heavier than air,
while NG is lighter than air.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:33:00 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

The interesting thing is that this lockout timer isn't needed for the
non-propane gas burners. Propane, apparently, is different that way, for a
reason I'm still trying to ascertain.

From what people said, propane is apparently heavier than air,
while NG is lighter than air.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ga...ity-d_158.html

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:54:27 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

LESSONS LEARNED on my Payne 394JAW propane furnace this week:

Voltage between R & C should be 24VAC.
- Red = 24VAC power (sometimes called RH, for Red Heat, RC for Red Cold)
- C = common (often blue, or black), usually not switched

The typical color code is:
- White = heat
- Green = blower
- Yellow (sometimes blue) = Compressor
- O = Orange (heat pump)

A typical test would be:
- Connect R to W to tell the furnace to supply heat.
- Connect R to Y to tell the system to supply cooling.
- Connect R to G to tell the system to operate the fan.

Most common problems:
0. It's (usually) not the thermostat
1. Sticking 3-wire pilot assembly (common, low stage, high stage)
2. Power to the two-stage gas valve (which is only on 4 to 7 seconds)
3. Spark igniter (high voltage comes out to light pilot)
4. Gas valve (sticking or blown solenoids)
5. Fan control board (often a relay sticks or won't turn on)
7. 3A fuse on the blower circuit board
8. One of the safety mechanisms has tripped

The thermostat "calls for heating" by connecting Red to White.

Power goes from the 24VAC Transformer to the Fusible Link to the
Limit Switch to the Vent Safety Shut-off Switch to the Lockout
Timer to the pilot ("pick" & "hold" gas valves), enabling propane
gas to begin flowing in the pilot.

Power also flows to the high-voltage igniter, which clicks a few times
to ignite the pilot flame.

About 60 seconds after the pilot lights, the safety pilot switches its
contacts and energizes the main valve portion of the gas valve.

About 10 seconds later, the main gas valve opens, and the main gas is
ignited by the pilot flame.

About 75 seconds after the pilot lights, the fan control board activates
the blower on low speed.

When the thermostat "is satisfied", the connection between R & W is broken.
Gas is immediately stopped to both the pilot and main burners.
The blower continues for about 100 seconds.

a) If the furnace overheats, the Limit Switch opens.
b) If the furnace overheats in the vestibule, the Fusible Link opens.
c) If the furnace overheats in the vents, the Vent Safety Switch opens.
d) If the pilot doesn't light, the Lockout Timer shuts down the system.
e) If the door is opened, the 120VAC door switch turns off the power.

These are the thermostat connections:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...61f28c11_o.gif

This is the "3-wire pilot assembly":
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2812/1...8e651e36_o.gif

This is the high-voltage ignitor:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/1...04b85a9f_o.gif

This is the "gas valve" (set up for propane):
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7358/1...fbde6523_o.gif

This is a fusible link, vent switch, & the "lockout timer":
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7323/1...56224304_o.gif

This is the limit switch:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/1...0de1c8bd_o.gif

This compartment holds the fan-control PCB:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5503/1...351134b4_o.gif

This is the terminal set from the thermostat (and elsewhere):
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/1...e7793ca9_o.gif

This is the 3 Amp fuse for the fan-control PCB:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3759/1...c03444e1_o.gif

This is the "fan control" PCB:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7443/1...bf7cb9e1_o.gif

This is the 120VAC door safety switch:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/1...1f88de9a_o.gif

This is the on/off switch for the gas, which remains on:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7295/1...4cc8b179_o.gif

This is the on/off mechanism (pull the plug) for the 120V power:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...6604d692_o.gif

This is the 16x25x1 3M filter:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/1...7ba0ef50_o.gif

This is the schematic printed on the inside of the door panel:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/1...ef8ce342_o.gif

This is another smaller schematic above that big one on the door panel:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/1...27d0a8ef_o.gif

And, this is on the outside of the door, for the electric pilot:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7374/1...44b32818_o.gif

This is a furnace operational and troubleshooting manual::
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp65-a.pdf

This is the burner running and heating up the house:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Maintenance:
- Check the air filter & clean with water monthly.
- Clean & lubricate blower wheel yearly.
- Clean the pilot area and clean the sensing probe yearly.
- Lubricate the motor with 20-weight oil every 2 to 5 years.
- Clean heat exchanger with brush & vacuum when necessary.

Thanks to all of you, this one furnace is not only working, but,
it's finally starting to make sense how it works.

Your help in this endeavor was/is much appreciated.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 04:40:32 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

LESSONS LEARNED on my Payne 394JAW propane furnace this week:

Ooops. I forgot to mention the 120VAC blower speeds, which are
usually set lower for heating than for cooling:

- White = neutral
- Red = low speed
- Yellow = medium low speed
- Blue = medium high speed
- Black = high speed

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 04:53:36 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Final update ... everything seems to be working fine now that the
weather has gotten warmer!

It's 59 degrees here in San Jose today.

I set the blower to 80 this morning, just to make it turn on,
and it went on.

The only thing I wonder about is how *gentle* I should be with
the thermostat. I already admonished the wife to stop shutting
off the switch - but - should we always gently turn the thing
or doesn't it matter much?

I'm afraid of getting caught in one of those timeout situations,
and having the board hang up as a result (which might have been
what had happened all along).

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 00:54:38 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 04:53:36 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Final update ... everything seems to be working fine now that the
weather has gotten warmer!

It's 59 degrees here in San Jose today.

I set the blower to 80 this morning, just to make it turn on,
and it went on.

The only thing I wonder about is how *gentle* I should be with
the thermostat. I already admonished the wife to stop shutting
off the switch - but - should we always gently turn the thing
or doesn't it matter much?

I'm afraid of getting caught in one of those timeout situations,
and having the board hang up as a result (which might have been
what had happened all along).

Glad you are safe. People here; today, were thinking of you. Did you
blow the roof off or did you break down every part; when installing
the furnace door would have worked the door switch...

Even if you went to buy more memory for the camera

What is your next project? I have a bet with the Mormon!

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:52:00 -0800, Oren wrote:

Glad you are safe. People here; today, were thinking of you.
That's nice to know.
You guys have always come through for me, whenever I was in a puddle.

Did you ... break down every part; when installing
the furnace door would have worked the door switch...

Just to be clear, the door itself didn't solve the problem because
the blower was running constantly. But when I reassembled the
thermostat, the blower stopped; but the furnace wouldn't go on.

After tapping everything, and blowing it all out with compressed
air, the blower went on, but only for a very short time.

And, after disassembling all wires (one at a time), cleaning
each of them, and tapping on all relays & switches, the blower
started working like it should.

So, it wasn't *just* the blower door (although, I do agree, that
was a "duh" moment for me when I saw that!).

Even if you went to buy more memory for the camera
Costco had a sale on the memory cards! Lucky me!

What is your next project? I have a bet with the Mormon!

I just wrote an entire review for free Android offline GPS mapping
applications in comp.mobile.android. I tested about two dozen,
and chose the best two or three for vehicle and hiking navigation
without a data plan (or when you're out of the service area).
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...id/AoE0Ox2We58

I'm currently spec'ing out a WiFi extension that will cover the
entire house with an entire Watt (the legal limit in the USA) EIRP.
That's over in alt.internet.wireless
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ss/fMLTzEHlzE8

We had a loooong discussion on how to get Android to tell the truth
about system memory in alt.cellular.t-mobile
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...le/e6svmGS1M-E[1-25-false]

etc.

On 12/13/2013 6:54 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 04:53:36 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Final update ... everything seems to be working fine now that the
weather has gotten warmer!

It's 59 degrees here in San Jose today.

I set the blower to 80 this morning, just to make it turn on,
and it went on.

The only thing I wonder about is how *gentle* I should be with
the thermostat. I already admonished the wife to stop shutting
off the switch - but - should we always gently turn the thing
or doesn't it matter much?

I'm afraid of getting caught in one of those timeout situations,
and having the board hang up as a result (which might have been
what had happened all along).


Danny you can switch to an electronic thermostat for very little money
and use the mercury switches from your old one for the next bomb you
build. The electronic thermostats have a built in time delay for their
operation which really protects your system by preventing "hammering" of
the control circuit. A time delay is really more important for air
conditioning since turning it on and off repeatedly will cause a great
deal of stress on the compressor. I install a timer in AC condensers for
customers who have an older mechanical thermostat to prevent the
compressor being turned on and off repeatedly, I use a 3 minute delay.
An electronic thermostat usually has a programmable time delay and an
offset temperature that can be programmed. You can program you're new
thermostat so it operates at a different temperature than the one on the
display. You could install a thermostat inside the return air duct but
leave the old thermostat on the wall for your wife to fiddle with. ^_^

TDD

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 22:12:19 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Danny you can switch to an electronic thermostat for very little money
Is it a 1:1 conversion?
Do folks have a recommended thermostat to use as a replacement?

If I had one that I could program to turn on just before we wake up
and go on just before we go to bed, that would be nice.

A time delay is really more important for air
conditioning since turning it on and off repeatedly will cause a great
deal of stress on the compressor.

This is interesting. Again, we will (from now on) be "gentle" with
the thermostat. That means instead of turning it on or off, we'll
just move the dial to lower or higher temperatures.

You could install a thermostat inside the return air duct but
leave the old thermostat on the wall for your wife to fiddle with.

Heh heh... I like *that* idea!

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 12/13/2013 6:54 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 04:53:36 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Final update ... everything seems to be working fine now that the
weather has gotten warmer!

It's 59 degrees here in San Jose today.

I set the blower to 80 this morning, just to make it turn on,
and it went on.

The only thing I wonder about is how *gentle* I should be with
the thermostat. I already admonished the wife to stop shutting
off the switch - but - should we always gently turn the thing
or doesn't it matter much?

I'm afraid of getting caught in one of those timeout situations,
and having the board hang up as a result (which might have been
what had happened all along).


Danny you can switch to an electronic thermostat for very little money
and use the mercury switches from your old one for the next bomb you
build. The electronic thermostats have a built in time delay for their
operation which really protects your system by preventing "hammering" of
the control circuit. A time delay is really more important for air
conditioning since turning it on and off repeatedly will cause a great
deal of stress on the compressor. I install a timer in AC condensers for
customers who have an older mechanical thermostat to prevent the
compressor being turned on and off repeatedly, I use a 3 minute delay.
An electronic thermostat usually has a programmable time delay and an
offset temperature that can be programmed. You can program you're new
thermostat so it operates at a different temperature than the one on the
display. You could install a thermostat inside the return air duct but
leave the old thermostat on the wall for your wife to fiddle with. ^_^

TDD
Hmmm,
Now you are leading him to another disaster programming new 'stst?, LOL!
Simple mind learns better and quick I observed it all the time during my
days as voluteer instructor for apprenticeship board. I used to teach
would be journeyman mechanics electric/electronic basics.