On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:05:11 -0500, clare wrote:

They were made for natural gas, which is lighter than air and
dissipates in event of accidental release, while propane (lpg) is
heavier than air and settles in the low spots - so the lockout timer
is used to prevent ignition before the possible accumulated gas is
dissipated.

Ah! Finally. An explanation! Thanks!

So, if the pilot flame doesn't prove itself, then the lockout timer
will shut down the system after the allotted time has expired.

That makes sense.

wrote in message ...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


"Danny D." wrote in message ...
Looking up why a propane furnace needs a lockout timer,
I find that they want the gas to be cleared from the
pipes *before* igniting the pilot (hence why the lockout
timer is a normally open switch).

It seems to say so, on the last sentence, of this document:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups.../58se-11si.pdf
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp40-a.pdf


Actually, the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber with
propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter. The timer has a manual reset.
Something else for you to keep track of in case the unit does not start.

This timer is only for the use with LPG (propane). One of the reasons I disagree with
the installation manual's statement to discard the old parts. It would be preferable to
keep the old in a bag, with instructions, so that the unit may easily be converted back
to natural gas. In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat. Cheaper to operate.

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)
Having the timer on for Natural Gas would most likely not be an
issue - just not REQUIRED, like it is for Propane.

True, but one still needs the orifices. Swap out the orifices plus MGV spring, then swap a
few wires and the system is 100% NG. The wiring takes about 2 minutes (if one is slow).
Some tweaking on the MGV output will be necessary, too...

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, Irreverent Maximus wrote:

the timer times open, meaning that it activates when the pilot fails
to light. This prevents the pilot valve from filling the combustion chamber
with propane and subsequent ignition via the pilot igniter.

Finally this lockout timer makes sense. If the pilot doesn't light, and if the
gas is propane, which is heavier than air, the timer times open, so that the
leaked propane isn't ignited. Makes sense now.

However, I would think NG would still have the same problem, even though
it's lighter than air, if it filled a room.

In your case this might not be a big deal, but I know for certain that
if I had the chance to switch to NG, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Interesting. I have no idea what the difference is, but, as you noted, I don't
have a choice since trucks deliver the propane to my tank outside.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:22:45 -0500, clare wrote:

Having the timer on for Natural Gas would most likely not be an
issue - just not REQUIRED, like it is for Propane.

Good to know.

I was wondering why it wasn't there for NG, but *only* for propane.

The discussion revolved around the fact that NG was lighter than
air, yet, propane wasn't. So it filled the room differently.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:33:00 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

The interesting thing is that this lockout timer isn't needed for the
non-propane gas burners. Propane, apparently, is different that way, for a
reason I'm still trying to ascertain.

From what people said, propane is apparently heavier than air,
while NG is lighter than air.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:51:54 -0700, deep wrote:

A high lift jack can be used as a come-along and a great many Jeepers
carry one. Likewise a winch with a stout cable is common equipment. At
least a towing strap, bad as that is for towing. If all else is
missing, the jack and some decent rope.

Well, if you had lots of rope, a couple of come-alongs, and a nice
stout tree or two nearby.... oops

Find me a tree in the desert to attach such a device...

All the solutions out here are not always the same as back east in
Yankee country.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:24:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:


When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with a hole in the center for
aiming. I got fairly good with it. I still have it some where.

Mine is in my backpack that goes everywhere with me. Doesn't it give the
security guys the heebees.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:33:00 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

The interesting thing is that this lockout timer isn't needed for the
non-propane gas burners. Propane, apparently, is different that way, for a
reason I'm still trying to ascertain.

From what people said, propane is apparently heavier than air,
while NG is lighter than air.


http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ga...ity-d_158.html

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:09:37 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.

Most cars come equipped with several signal mirrors. If the thing is on its
back with its paws in the air, ripping a mirror off is the least of your
worries.

I keep a CD Disc (good or bad) in my truck. Just from 100' feet from
my house I can light a beam on the house across the street.

Makes a good shaving mirror if you really find yourself in a bad
moment.

Reflects light to a research aircraft.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)

.... and then go change the flat tire on the truck, come back, sit on
your knee and firmly state why she is leaving

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:24:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 10:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.

Most cars come equipped with several signal mirrors. If the thing is on its
back with its paws in the air, ripping a mirror off is the least of your
worries.

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find. Being able
to aim it, is really nice. I had a lead on them
for a while, and ought to try and find a couple
more.

Last time I looked REI had them. I'd think almost any outdoor
outfitter. I think they dropped the multilayer glass one with the
complex aiming window. It's heavy and expensive but you can drive
tanks over it. I have one of those in the retired pile from long ago.
They do have a smaller glass one though. If you can't find the
stainless one under signaling mirrors look under shaving mirrors or
some other such vanity use.

Can also rip out the seats for signal fire
material. When you get to the point of "the
truck is scrap, it's no longer of use" there
are plastic and all that can be burned.

I think I'd hang on a bit before I started trashing a vehicle that can
be recovered.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:41:03 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

Finally this lockout timer makes sense. If the pilot doesn't light, and if the
gas is propane, which is heavier than air, the timer times open, so that the
leaked propane isn't ignited. Makes sense now.

Even on my NG furnace, the unit will not fire until the gas is able to
flow and ignite. A safety feature to prevent gas accumulation and
explosion....I think.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:52:20 -0800, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:51:54 -0700, deep wrote:

A high lift jack can be used as a come-along and a great many Jeepers
carry one. Likewise a winch with a stout cable is common equipment. At
least a towing strap, bad as that is for towing. If all else is
missing, the jack and some decent rope.

Well, if you had lots of rope, a couple of come-alongs, and a nice
stout tree or two nearby.... oops

Find me a tree in the desert to attach such a device...

All the solutions out here are not always the same as back east in
Yankee country.

It's lots of work, but you did a hole and bury something large with a
attachment point for the rope.

Standard off road kit is a high lift jack, a serious shovel, and an ax
for trees down. Lots of other stuff of course but that's what's
usually bolted somewhere on the chassis.

I'm in Aridzona where I have to deal with open sand, forests, and
devil's graveyard rocks depending on which way the Jeep was pointing
when I went out and started the engine.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:30:22 -0700, Winston_Smith
wrote:

It's lots of work, but you did a hole and bury something large with a
attachment point for the rope.

Like a spare tire.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:54:27 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

LESSONS LEARNED on my Payne 394JAW propane furnace this week:

Voltage between R & C should be 24VAC.
- Red = 24VAC power (sometimes called RH, for Red Heat, RC for Red Cold)
- C = common (often blue, or black), usually not switched

The typical color code is:
- White = heat
- Green = blower
- Yellow (sometimes blue) = Compressor
- O = Orange (heat pump)

A typical test would be:
- Connect R to W to tell the furnace to supply heat.
- Connect R to Y to tell the system to supply cooling.
- Connect R to G to tell the system to operate the fan.

Most common problems:
0. It's (usually) not the thermostat
1. Sticking 3-wire pilot assembly (common, low stage, high stage)
2. Power to the two-stage gas valve (which is only on 4 to 7 seconds)
3. Spark igniter (high voltage comes out to light pilot)
4. Gas valve (sticking or blown solenoids)
5. Fan control board (often a relay sticks or won't turn on)
7. 3A fuse on the blower circuit board
8. One of the safety mechanisms has tripped

The thermostat "calls for heating" by connecting Red to White.

Power goes from the 24VAC Transformer to the Fusible Link to the
Limit Switch to the Vent Safety Shut-off Switch to the Lockout
Timer to the pilot ("pick" & "hold" gas valves), enabling propane
gas to begin flowing in the pilot.

Power also flows to the high-voltage igniter, which clicks a few times
to ignite the pilot flame.

About 60 seconds after the pilot lights, the safety pilot switches its
contacts and energizes the main valve portion of the gas valve.

About 10 seconds later, the main gas valve opens, and the main gas is
ignited by the pilot flame.

About 75 seconds after the pilot lights, the fan control board activates
the blower on low speed.

When the thermostat "is satisfied", the connection between R & W is broken.
Gas is immediately stopped to both the pilot and main burners.
The blower continues for about 100 seconds.

a) If the furnace overheats, the Limit Switch opens.
b) If the furnace overheats in the vestibule, the Fusible Link opens.
c) If the furnace overheats in the vents, the Vent Safety Switch opens.
d) If the pilot doesn't light, the Lockout Timer shuts down the system.
e) If the door is opened, the 120VAC door switch turns off the power.

These are the thermostat connections:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/1...61f28c11_o.gif

This is the "3-wire pilot assembly":
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2812/1...8e651e36_o.gif

This is the high-voltage ignitor:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/1...04b85a9f_o.gif

This is the "gas valve" (set up for propane):
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7358/1...fbde6523_o.gif

This is a fusible link, vent switch, & the "lockout timer":
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7323/1...56224304_o.gif

This is the limit switch:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/1...0de1c8bd_o.gif

This compartment holds the fan-control PCB:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5503/1...351134b4_o.gif

This is the terminal set from the thermostat (and elsewhere):
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/1...e7793ca9_o.gif

This is the 3 Amp fuse for the fan-control PCB:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3759/1...c03444e1_o.gif

This is the "fan control" PCB:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7443/1...bf7cb9e1_o.gif

This is the 120VAC door safety switch:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/1...1f88de9a_o.gif

This is the on/off switch for the gas, which remains on:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7295/1...4cc8b179_o.gif

This is the on/off mechanism (pull the plug) for the 120V power:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5477/1...6604d692_o.gif

This is the 16x25x1 3M filter:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/1...7ba0ef50_o.gif

This is the schematic printed on the inside of the door panel:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2863/1...ef8ce342_o.gif

This is another smaller schematic above that big one on the door panel:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5518/1...27d0a8ef_o.gif

And, this is on the outside of the door, for the electric pilot:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7374/1...44b32818_o.gif

This is a furnace operational and troubleshooting manual::
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups...0394dp65-a.pdf

This is the burner running and heating up the house:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/1...8c974a9b_o.gif

Maintenance:
- Check the air filter & clean with water monthly.
- Clean & lubricate blower wheel yearly.
- Clean the pilot area and clean the sensing probe yearly.
- Lubricate the motor with 20-weight oil every 2 to 5 years.
- Clean heat exchanger with brush & vacuum when necessary.

Thanks to all of you, this one furnace is not only working, but,
it's finally starting to make sense how it works.

Your help in this endeavor was/is much appreciated.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 04:40:32 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

LESSONS LEARNED on my Payne 394JAW propane furnace this week:

Ooops. I forgot to mention the 120VAC blower speeds, which are
usually set lower for heating than for cooling:

- White = neutral
- Red = low speed
- Yellow = medium low speed
- Blue = medium high speed
- Black = high speed

wrote:

They said the parents were taking the kids out to play in the snow.
Why the hell didn't they go to the city park?

You're assuming there is snow in a Lovelock city park. Why do people drive
to Seeley or Lolo Pass to play in the snow?

Stormin Mormon wrote:

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find.

Have you looked at a DVD lately? Predrilled aiming hole.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:30:22 -0700, Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:52:20 -0800, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:51:54 -0700, deep wrote:

A high lift jack can be used as a come-along and a great many Jeepers
carry one. Likewise a winch with a stout cable is common equipment. At
least a towing strap, bad as that is for towing. If all else is
missing, the jack and some decent rope.

Well, if you had lots of rope, a couple of come-alongs, and a nice
stout tree or two nearby.... oops

Find me a tree in the desert to attach such a device...

All the solutions out here are not always the same as back east in
Yankee country.

It's lots of work, but you did a hole and bury something large with a
attachment point for the rope.


I'd just drive a steel rod in the ground and attach something.
Assuming it was needed on a fifteen mile trip.

Standard off road kit is a high lift jack, a serious shovel, and an ax
for trees down. Lots of other stuff of course but that's what's
usually bolted somewhere on the chassis.


I'm familiar. I'm from the swamps (Everglades) ... been stranded for
a few days with mud up to my ass hips. Showed up for work (AWOL) and
was asked why I did not call in. "Boss, there are no phones where I
was for three days..." I haven't even mentioned about being stuck in
the days of my youth.

Yep, even broke boat motors can give you a breakdown.

I'm in Aridzona where I have to deal with open sand, forests, and
devil's graveyard rocks depending on which way the Jeep was pointing
when I went out and started the engine.

Don't break a gear box
--
"The definition of a liberal, a liberal is somebody that doesn't care what you do as long as it's mandatory". -- Charles Krauthammer

"Oren" wrote in message news
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:11:09 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:

Oh, tell the wife that she is not a thermostat. Let the thermostat do its job. That and
to make you a sandwich and bring you a beer. :-)

... and then go change the flat tire on the truck, come back, sit on
your knee and firmly state why she is leaving

Hey, if she does not do the small things in life, anymore, then it is time
to trade the starter wife in and get an upgrade. :-)

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:52:20 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:51:54 -0700, deep wrote:

Well, if you had lots of rope, a couple of come-alongs, and a nice stout
tree or two nearby.... oops

Find me a tree in the desert to attach such a device...

1 tonne sack filled with sand?
Dead passenger? Okay, a protesting passenger.


All the solutions out here are not always the same as back east in
Yankee country.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:09:37 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.

Most cars come equipped with several signal mirrors. If the thing is on its
back with its paws in the air, ripping a mirror off is the least of your
worries.


Indeed!!

--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:24:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 10:09 PM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Blankets, food, some kind of signal mirror.

Most cars come equipped with several signal mirrors. If the thing is on its
back with its paws in the air, ripping a mirror off is the least of your
worries.

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find. Being able
to aim it, is really nice. I had a lead on them
for a while, and ought to try and find a couple
more.

Google "signal mirror"...49 Million hits.

Hardly...hard to find.

Gunner

Can also rip out the seats for signal fire
material. When you get to the point of "the
truck is scrap, it's no longer of use" there
are plastic and all that can be burned.

True indeed. And plastic makes very good signal smoke..assuming you
can get it..and keep it burning.

Toss in your spare tire and you will have a pretty good smoke
pot..even after the tire explodes.


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:55:56 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find.

Have you looked at a DVD lately? Predrilled aiming hole.


True indeed.

http://suite101.com/a/emergency-ligh...-light-a406298


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:52:20 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:51:54 -0700, deep wrote:

A high lift jack can be used as a come-along and a great many Jeepers
carry one. Likewise a winch with a stout cable is common equipment. At
least a towing strap, bad as that is for towing. If all else is
missing, the jack and some decent rope.

Well, if you had lots of rope, a couple of come-alongs, and a nice
stout tree or two nearby.... oops

Find me a tree in the desert to attach such a device...

All the solutions out here are not always the same as back east in
Yankee country.


A lot of guys here who are into extreme off roading..carry an anchor
or a half dozen fence pickets and a picket driver. Just be sure to
anchor off at the ground level of at least 3


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:54:17 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

wrote:

They said the parents were taking the kids out to play in the snow.
Why the hell didn't they go to the city park?

You're assuming there is snow in a Lovelock city park. Why do people drive
to Seeley or Lolo Pass to play in the snow?


Most snow around here is on the Grapevine..about the ONLY snow around
here. Folks will travel 100 miles to come up and play in 3" of snow.


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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On 12/11/2013 11:08 PM, Oren wrote:

I keep a CD Disc (good or bad) in my truck. Just from 100' feet from
my house I can light a beam on the house across the street.

Makes a good shaving mirror if you really find yourself in a bad
moment.

Reflects light to a research aircraft.

I wonder if two AOL disks, glued back to back, would
make a usable signal mirror? Like politicians, they
are over populated.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/11/2013 11:55 PM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find.

Have you looked at a DVD lately? Predrilled aiming hole.

Someday, I'll try sticking two together, and
see if that works as signal miror. Never know,
might be the answer I'm seeking.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/12/2013 7:39 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/11/2013 11:55 PM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find.


Check out Cabela's. I was just there yesterday and spotted one as I was
browsing. They had several - both single pack and as part of "kits."

Gunner Asch wrote:

Most snow around here is on the Grapevine..about the ONLY snow around
here. Folks will travel 100 miles to come up and play in 3" of snow.

I've seen that act on Cajon pass too. I was hanging around the Anaheim
terminal before New Years one year and took a bike ride around. The town was
doing the First Night thing and the main attraction was their imported snow.

Last weekend a South Carolina team played the UM Grizzlies. Some of the kids
had never seen snow. Considering it was 1 degree with a wind chill of minus
Sweet Jesus on game day, they may never want to see snow again.

Stormin Mormon wrote:

Someday, I'll try sticking two together, and
see if that works as signal miror. Never know,
might be the answer I'm seeking.

Why stick two together?

Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Check out Cabela's. I was just there yesterday and spotted one as I was
browsing. They had several - both single pack and as part of "kits."

http://www.rei.com/product/630149/co...l-mirror-2-x-3

Most sporting goods stores carry the Coghlan line.

On 12/12/2013 9:49 AM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Someday, I'll try sticking two together, and
see if that works as signal miror. Never know,
might be the answer I'm seeking.

Why stick two together?

For aiming. Need reflective on both sides,
so you can see to aim.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/12/2013 9:49 AM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Someday, I'll try sticking two together, and
see if that works as signal miror. Never know,
might be the answer I'm seeking.

Why stick two together?

http://www.dougritter.com/psp_rescueflash.htm

This is pretty close. Look through the hole, and
tilt the miror so the spot you see in reflection
covers the target. A couple of blinks, don't blind
the hell out of them forever.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/12/2013 8:58 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/12/2013 9:49 AM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

Someday, I'll try sticking two together, and
see if that works as signal miror. Never know,
might be the answer I'm seeking.

Why stick two together?

For aiming. Need reflective on both sides,
so you can see to aim.

Not necessary. Sighting hole in center of the mirror (ones that I saw
yesterday at Cabela's) and matte finish on the back.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:52:20 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:51:54 -0700, deep wrote:

A high lift jack can be used as a come-along and a great many Jeepers
carry one. Likewise a winch with a stout cable is common equipment. At
least a towing strap, bad as that is for towing. If all else is
missing, the jack and some decent rope.

Well, if you had lots of rope, a couple of come-alongs, and a nice
stout tree or two nearby.... oops

Find me a tree in the desert to attach such a device...

That was my point. Therefore the "oops".


All the solutions out here are not always the same as back east in
Yankee country.

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:32:56 -0700, Winston_Smith
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:30:22 -0700, Winston_Smith
wrote:

It's lots of work, but you did a hole and bury something large with a
attachment point for the rope.

Like a spare tire.

Damn that would be a big hole. Dug in the frozen ground with a
folding shovel?

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:52:35 -0700, rbowman
wrote:

Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Check out Cabela's. I was just there yesterday and spotted one as I was
browsing. They had several - both single pack and as part of "kits."

http://www.rei.com/product/630149/co...l-mirror-2-x-3

Most sporting goods stores carry the Coghlan line.

A small stainless steel signal mirror that will slip into the back of
your first aid/survival kit has been a standard part of my emergency
kit for a very long time. I think they cost all of about a buck
fifty. A very cheap but potentially very beneficial part of what
should be in everyone's emergency kit.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:39:28 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 12/11/2013 11:55 PM, rbowman wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:

When I was a kid, I got a stainless one with
a hole in the center for aiming. I got fairly
good with it. I still have it some where.
Those are getting harder to find.

Have you looked at a DVD lately? Predrilled aiming hole.

Someday, I'll try sticking two together, and
see if that works as signal miror.

The compass I carry has a sighting mirror. That could be pressed into
service if nothing else.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:14:03 -0700, deep wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:32:56 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:30:22 -0700, Winston_Smith wrote:

It's lots of work, but you did a hole and bury something large with a
attachment point for the rope.

Like a spare tire.

Damn that would be a big hole. Dug in the frozen ground with a
folding shovel?

As a rule Aridzona deserts are not frozen. In the north where it does
freeze there is generally a bolder or tree nearby.

Notice I wrote
|-- Standard off road kit is a high lift jack, a serious shovel, and an ax
not folding shovel.

If you are going into the wilderness with toys, you will probably have
problems. In that case, you would be better off with a mule.