Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/s_trmt_naval/overview/Loctite-Naval-Jelly-Rust-Dissolver.htm

....along with some steel wool

Once cleaned to your liking then oil the tools.

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Steel wool and WD40

I'd try wire brush and WD-40. Good an answer as any.

Used to be you could buy rust remover jelly.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Steel wool and WD40

....and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.

So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Used to be you could buy rust remover jelly.

I called ACE Hardware and they have it in stock for less than $10 a bottle.

Looking up sources of phosphoric acid, I see I can also buy 85% H3PO4
at about $13/Liter or $40/gallon (which makes a ton of naval jelly).
http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php...ng _id=17:30:

Here is another source of H3PO4 at $50/gallon:
http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_...er_pricing.htm

Here's a source of "Aqua Mix Phosphoric Acid Cleaner Substitute"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...624253-4972718
The MSDS says it's Urea, monohydrochloride 7-13%
http://www.ptsaquamix.com/index.php?...externalId=487
Hmm. I wonder if peeing will work on the rust!

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800, harry wrote:

Steel wool and WD40

warning ... RANDOM rust removal ideas follow ... / warning

Seems like the naval jelly & steel wool win out for removing the rust,
and then you guys add an oil (I'm not sure why WD-40 over any other oil).

Looking up what else works, I see there is some discussion as
to whether hydrochloric acid (HCL) or muriatic pool acid would
work since HCl is used to pickle steel (and I have gallons of HCl):
http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/22/21953.htm

Apparently Hydrochloric acid + iron yields iron chloride.

But, if you don't wash all the iron chloride out, water + iron chloride
in a warm environment will regenerate iron oxide (rust) + HCl.

On the other hand, phosphoric acid + iron yields iron phosphate, which,
even if you leave it on the metal, won't go back to iron oxide.

So the phosphoric acid is better than hydrochloric acid for rust removal.

Danny D. wrote:

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?

Rust Removal using Electrolysis
http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

"Danny D." wrote in news:kg8tqg$60g$2
@speranza.aioe.org:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.

So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust,


There's a better alternative these days: EvapoRust. This stuff is
absolutely astounding. It's one of those genuine advances, like the
discovery of germs.

The stuff is literally like magic. Drop your parts in this non-toxic, water
soluble liquid, leave it overnight, and it's as though there was never any
rust on the parts to begin with. A very nice side benefit is that your
original surface texture remains undamaged, unlike wire-brushing.

I've used Naval Jelly for years, but this stuff just totally outclasses it.

http://www.evaporust.com/

The only drawback is that the part you're trying to de-rust needs to be
completely submerged in EvapoRust. You cannot paint it on a surface the way
you would with Naval Jelly, so de-rusting fenders and the like is not
possible unless you have a stock tank full of EvapoRust.

As for rust-preventive treatment afterwards, just a wipe with motor oil is
fine.


--
Tegger

Zen wrote:

Rust Removal using Electrolysis http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

The problem with electrolysis is that the result will rust
quicker (unless you protect it).

Here is a naval jelly "secrets of surface rust removal revealed"
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/secr...led-55679.html

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.

So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?


Seems that WD-40 is the word of choice for those that don't know any beter.
Cures moles, colds, and tight buttholes.

Motor oil is fine. Most any oil will do to keep the rust down. The oil
provides a barrier from the tool to the air and water. There is a product
made by LPS that is made to help prevent rust. I think it is called LPS2.

The best way is not to let the tools get wet, and wipe them down every year
or so if you do not use them very often.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\

On 2/22/2013 6:47 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\


Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

"Danny D." wrote in
:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Used to be you could buy rust remover jelly.

I called ACE Hardware and they have it in stock for less than $10 a
bottle.



Forget that. EvapoRust is what you want. Amazing stuff. Seriously.
http://www.evaporust.com/



--
Tegger

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:09:04 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.

So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?

Danny,

When ready to oil after cleaning use a clean rag, motor oil -- applied
sparingly thin. The oil prevents further rust, at least until the
next time g I watched my grandfather save his hand saw from the time
I left it in the yard and the dew feel upon it. No belt wippin' that
time ;-|

Don't over think this. Some tools in that tool box you left outside
are not worth keeping.... hack saw blade..

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:47:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\

Hi Oren,

Here is the short form of the explanation.

Naval jelly is plain old phosphoric acid (plus a wetting agent such
as plain old alcohol) which, when applied to my rusty tools, will
convert the rust to 'black powder', which I can then wash off.

Now I know how to clean up the rusty table where the tools lay:

1. Rust on the table
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255674.jpg

2. Pool acid on the rust
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255675.jpg

3. All the rust on the table gone
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255677.jpg

4. New concrete spots are the result!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255678.jpg

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:33:53 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Hmm. I wonder if peeing will work on the rust!

Would weasel **** work?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:56:24 +0000 (UTC), Tegger
wrote:

Forget that. EvapoRust is what you want. Amazing stuff. Seriously.
http://www.evaporust.com/


I saved this link. What about rust on guns and gun barrels?

Safe?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:56:04 -0500, Frank
wrote:

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\


Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

Coca Cola is good for cleaning windshields and chrome bumpers when
washed and rinsed.

Will Coca Cola rust a nail? Some say it will.

Harry:

You could probably save yourself some money here.

Oren's recommendation of Loctite's Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver utilizes a well known chemical reaction between rust and phosphoric acid that converts the rust into a black compound called Ferric Phosphate or FePO4.

Here's what Wikipedia says about using Phosphoric acid to convert rust to Ferric Phosphate:
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rust removal:
Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4.

"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.

After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off, leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance (such protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating processes).
__________________________________________________ _______________________________


So, I took a look at the MSDS for Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver, and sure enough it's mostly phosphoric acid. It's got 10 to 30 percent phosphoric acid in it. It's got some other stuff in it too, but those other things are to gel it so that it can be applied to vertical surfaces and overhead:

Household Products Database - Health and Safety Information on Household Products

Now, phosphoric acid is commonly used as the active ingredient in toilet bowl cleaners. If you just go down to your local home center or hardware store and look at the toilet bowl cleaners they sell, many of them will give a phosphoric acid content, or have a warning saying that it contains phosphoric acid.

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

If Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver has a phosphoric acid content of 10 to 30 percent, you can use any phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner with a phosphoric acid content between 10 and 30 percent to get identical results as you'd get with the Loctite product.

Many toilet bowl cleaners will contain hydrochloric acid, but you want to use phosphoric acid for converting rust into that stable black compound, ferric phosphate.

Also, EVERY janitorial supply store listed under "Janitorial Equipment & Supplies" will, in all certainty, sell a phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner you can use on your tools.

Phosphoric acid is a mild acid. It's about the same strength as CLR. It won't harm your tools if you leave it on too long, but doing that won't remove any more rust. Once the rust turns black, just wash the remaining phosphoric acid off your tools with water and dry immediately with a rag or paper towels.

Rubbing oil over the ferric phosphate won't do anything, and it'll only make dirt stick to your tools. I would leave out the business about applying oil to anything because as soon as you use that tool, the oil film will get wiped/rubbed off anyway. Just keep your tools dry.

On 02/22/2013 03:05 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

HCl is just going to cause rust. I use muriatic to dissolve
galvanizing (for welding), and all of the ferrous objects near the
bottle end up getting very rusty.

Jon

On Feb 22, 5:34*pm, "Danny D." wrote:

Looking up what else works, I see there is some discussion as
to whether hydrochloric acid (HCL) or muriatic pool acid would
work since HCl is used to pickle steel (and I have gallons of HCl):
*
Apparently Hydrochloric acid + iron yields iron chloride.

But, if you don't wash all the iron chloride out, water + iron chloride
in a warm environment will regenerate iron oxide (rust) + HCl.


I screwed up when I left the lid off a container of HCl setting on my
shop bench. Two days later when I went back in the shop the fumes had
caused every iron tool hanging on the pegboard to have a film of rust
similar to your toolbox. HCl never comes inside any more.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Steel wool and WD40

...and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.


You're correct. My dad was a old builder/carpenter and had naval
jelly around. I presume for the rust on tools? Gee, you're a
pretty smart fella except when it comes to guns grin.

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?



I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:33:01 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:47:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\

Hi Oren,

Here is the short form of the explanation.

Naval jelly is plain old phosphoric acid (plus a wetting agent such
as plain old alcohol) which, when applied to my rusty tools, will
convert the rust to 'black powder', which I can then wash off.

Now I know how to clean up the rusty table where the tools lay:

1. Rust on the table
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255674.jpg

2. Pool acid on the rust
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255675.jpg

3. All the rust on the table gone
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255677.jpg

4. New concrete spots are the result!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255678.jpg


The table is plastic. Easy

The concrete just etched. Porous

No?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:56:30 -0800 (PST), Red
wrote:

I screwed up when I left the lid off a container of HCl setting on my
shop bench. Two days later when I went back in the shop the fumes had
caused every iron tool hanging on the pegboard to have a film of rust
similar to your toolbox. HCl never comes inside any more.


The pool acid can narly up the metal in a pool pump enclosure (closet)

Even with the cap on, acid off gases out of plastic jugs -- rust.

"Danny D." wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

I don't think using acid is good at first. It would make a good last step
to get into holes. If you leave navel jelly on, it with start to build big
black marks, much like rust converter. I've done this on car rust spots. It
will not rust further once the conversion takes place. Yo can buy
phosphoric at the auto store. It's a paint prep.
Light rust can be taken off with scotchbrite and soapy water.

Greg

Frank wrote:
On 2/22/2013 6:47 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\


Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

Ketchup.

Greg

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:58:29 -0600, Doug
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Steel wool and WD40

...and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.


You're correct. My dad was a old builder/carpenter and had naval
jelly around. I presume for the rust on tools? Gee, you're a
pretty smart fella except when it comes to guns grin.

I know my guns. And a tad about rust.

Guns are tools. I ran, controlled, issued and spent many hours in an
Armory making ammo. At least one of those guns shot two escapees in
the ass at ~ 100 yards, maybe one was just hit in the leg. Fun was I
modified at government expenses. 144mm Howitzers are a hoot to shoot.
Make me happy...

Doug, please do not confuse me with yourself about guns. You said
before you would stay out of gun talk, Here you are again - got cha!

My wife is a former range instructor in firearms, Shall we teach you?

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"
wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:48:59 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:58:29 -0600, Doug
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Steel wool and WD40

...and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.


You're correct. My dad was a old builder/carpenter and had naval
jelly around. I presume for the rust on tools? Gee, you're a
pretty smart fella except when it comes to guns grin.

I know my guns. And a tad about rust.

Guns are tools. I ran, controlled, issued and spent many hours in an
Armory making ammo. At least one of those guns shot two escapees in
the ass at ~ 100 yards, maybe one was just hit in the leg. Fun was I
modified at government expenses. 144mm Howitzers are a hoot to shoot.
Make me happy...

Doug, please do not confuse me with yourself about guns. You said
before you would stay out of gun talk, Here you are again - got cha!

My wife is a former range instructor in firearms, Shall we teach you?


No.

Now back on topic or closer to topic... I need to see if I have any
naval jelly around because I could use it right now. I see a bit of
rust on a bottom of a built in oven.

Just in case, is naval jelly sold in hardware stores? And I'll
probably need some heat resistant paint for touch up on the oven (if I
want to be picky about it).

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 02:47:15 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

Frank wrote:
On 2/22/2013 6:47 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\


Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

Ketchup.

Greg

I have a very old brass boat propeller. Ketchup is the suggested way
to clean it. Allow the tomato acid to work. Rinse and clear coat, but
I'm not that far yet. I would trust Ketchup. Can't say for rust
though..

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks
restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

Is there any other?g

Oren wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 02:47:15 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

Frank wrote:
On 2/22/2013 6:47 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly

I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\


Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

Ketchup.

Greg

I have a very old brass boat propeller. Ketchup is the suggested way
to clean it. Allow the tomato acid to work. Rinse and clear coat, but
I'm not that far yet. I would trust Ketchup. Can't say for rust
though..

I tried tarnX on brass. It says not for brass, and it sort of worked.

I always used navel jelly on my aluminum wheels after the clear wore off. I
know they sell aluminum jelly, but it's just not as strong.

Greg

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:56:04 -0500, Frank wrote:

Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.

I'll run an experiment tomorrow in the daylight on the rust-stained table.

1. We already know the pool muriatic acid works wonderfully (HCl).
2. I'll try the Naval Jelly I bought today (phosphoric acid).
3. And, for a test, I'll try lemon juice & coca cola.

I'll snap pictures and and report back the results.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan"
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks
restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

Is there any other?g


Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him though...

I'd hire him to build me 1940 Ford coupe, if I decide. I provide the
parts.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Had to look up 'thixotropic'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

Certain gels or fluids that are thick (viscous) under normal
conditions flow (become thin, less viscous) over time when shaken,
agitated, or otherwise stressed. They then take a fixed time to
return to a more viscous state.

nestork wrote:

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?