nestork wrote:

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

The PDF says it "Removes rust, lime and organic deposits".

Clearly it removes rust - but HOW does it remove calcium oxide (aka lime)
and what does it mean by organic deposits (other than carbohydrates)?

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 06:02:28 +0000, Ripple Whine wrote:

Clearly it removes rust - but HOW does it remove calcium oxide (aka lime)
and what does it mean by organic deposits (other than carbohydrates)?

I have no idea, but googling, I see that phosphoric acid reacts with calcium
oxide to form calcium phosphate and water.
http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/q...water-q1594465

So the question is really why would we want to convert toilet bowl
limescale to toilet bowl calcium phosphate [Ca2(PO4)3].

Offhand, my guess is that mixing the acid plus the base, nets a salt
which is (I'm guessing) soluble in water - hence easily cleaned.

Since my shower stall is VERY stained with hard water deposits, I might
try it (but I generally use LimeAway) as a separate experiment for the team.

The MSDS for Lime Away says it's 2.5 to 10% Sulfamic Acid (CAS 5329-14-6).
http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/LIME...US-English.pdf

I have never heard of Sulfamic Acid but Wikipedia says it's used to
remove rust and lime by converting them to soluble calcium and iron salts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid

I'm guessing that the phosphoric acid mixes with the lime to create a
salt which is then washed away by dissolving in water.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:29:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

The table is plastic. Easy
The concrete just etched. Porous
No?

Yes. The concrete turned whitish where the phosphoric acid landed
after dripping off the table.

While pool acid is not recommended for hand tools (it pickles them
but apparently makes the result MORE susceptible to rusting), it seems
to work wonderfully for plastic tables.

Tomorrow I will experiment with the following on that rust and on
the lime of my shower stall.

1. Vinegar (aka ketchup)
2. LimeAway (sulfamic acid)
3. Lemon juice (citric acid)
4. Coca cola (weak phosphoric acid)
5. Naval Jelly (strong phosphoric acid)
6. We already know muriatic acid works fantastically on table rust!

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:08:47 -0600, Doug wrote:

Just in case, is naval jelly sold in hardware stores?

Today I bought 16 fluid oz (about half a liter) of Naval Jelly at
Home Depot (in the paint department) for about $7.

Here is the URL to the same stuff (which is about 25% phosphoric acid):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Loctite-1...3472/203009241

ACE Hardware also has it in stock for less than $10 a bottle.

Looking up sources of phosphoric acid, I see I can also buy 85% H3PO4
at about $13/Liter or $40/gallon (which makes a ton of naval jelly).
http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php...ng _id=17:30:

Here is another source of H3PO4 at $50/gallon:
http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_...er_pricing.htm

Here's a source of "Aqua Mix Phosphoric Acid Cleaner Substitute"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...624253-4972718
The MSDS says it's Urea, monohydrochloride 7-13%
http://www.ptsaquamix.com/index.php?...externalId=487
Hmm. I wonder if peeing will work on the rust!

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:41:04 +0000, Tegger wrote:

There's a better alternative these days: EvapoRust.

Googling, I find a recommendation at, of all places, "The Rust Store":
http://www.theruststore.com/Hand-Too...val-W13C2.aspx

The MSDS for Evapo-Rust says absolutely nothing about what's in it:
http://www.evaporust.com/docs/MSDS%20Evaporust.pdf

As for how it works:
http://www.evapo-rust.com/howitworks/
Apparently the synthetic chelating agent of Evapo-Rust removes the
iron in iron oxide by creating a ferric sulfate complex, and sometimes
there is a black residue from the carbon in the steel.
http://www.evapo-rust.com/faq/

Googling some more, I find Evapo-Rust is "patent pending" by
Harris International, so if we can find the patent, we can figure
out what that synthetic chelating agent is.

The trademark was apparently registered by Daubert Cromwell, LLC in July 2009.
http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/index.jsp

Googling also found "bio-rust" which may be the same thing.
http://www.walter.com/PortalBuilder/...BIO-RUST_E.pdf

BTW, some say molasses works the same way:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/b...e/viewall.html

Which might be why the patent was apparently NOT GRANTED even though
it was filed in 2000.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, ChairMan wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

The apple cider and molasses solution doesn't seem to have worked:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/b...e/viewall.html

On Feb 22, 11:09*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd try wire brush and WD-40.

So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?

I always use WD40 on tools when I put them away. Especially ones I use
infrequently.
Good for garden tools too.

On Feb 22, 11:45*pm, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:
"Danny D." wrote in message

...









On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.

So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?

Seems that WD-40 is the word of choice for those that don't know any beter.

On Feb 23, 1:18*am, nestork wrote:
Harry:

You could probably save yourself some money here.

Oren's recommendation of Loctite's Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver utilizes a
well known chemical reaction between rust and phosphoric acid that
converts the rust into a black compound called Ferric Phosphate or
FePO4.

Here's what Wikipedia says about using Phosphoric acid to convert rust
to Ferric Phosphate:
__________________________________________________ _________________________ ______

'Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid)

Rust removal:
Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application
to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts
reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate,
FePO4.

"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in
the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is
more often formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is
sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust
killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even
overhead surfaces.

After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid
may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also
be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion
resistance (such protection is also provided by the superficially
similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating
processes).
__________________________________________________ _________________________ ______

So, I took a look at the MSDS for Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver,
and sure enough it's mostly phosphoric acid. *It's got 10 to 30 percent
phosphoric acid in it. *It's got some other stuff in it too, but those
other things are to gel it so that it can be applied to vertical
surfaces and overhead:

'Household Products Database - Health and Safety Information on
Household Products' (http://tinyurl.com/bfjgnv8)

Now, phosphoric acid is commonly used as the active ingredient in toilet
bowl cleaners. *If you just go down to your local home center or
hardware store and look at the toilet bowl cleaners they sell, many of
them will give a phosphoric acid content, or have a warning saying that
it contains phosphoric acid.

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

If Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver has a phosphoric acid content of
10 to 30 percent, you can use any phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner
with a phosphoric acid content between 10 and 30 percent to get
identical results as you'd get with the Loctite product.

Many toilet bowl cleaners will contain hydrochloric acid, but you want
to use phosphoric acid for converting rust into that stable black
compound, ferric phosphate.

Also, EVERY janitorial supply store listed under "Janitorial Equipment &
Supplies" will, in all certainty, sell a phosphoric acid toilet bowl
cleaner you can use on your tools.

Phosphoric acid is a mild acid. *It's about the same strength as CLR.
It won't harm your tools if you leave it on too long, but doing that
won't remove any more rust. *Once the rust turns black, just wash the
remaining phosphoric acid off your tools with water and dry immediately
with a rag or paper towels.

Rubbing oil over the ferric phosphate won't do anything, and it'll only
make dirt stick to your tools. *I would leave out the business about
applying oil to anything because as soon as you use that tool,
the oil
film will get wiped/rubbed off anyway. *Just keep your tools dry.

--
nestork

Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
or have different names.
However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
especially on stuff like saws.

WD40 is much faster to apply than rubbing on oil.
Some tools are meant to get wet (eg garden spades)
WD40 has worked fine with me for years, just give
stuff a quick waft when I put it away.
I have a 5litre can of the stuff and a manual refillable aerosol.
BTW, WD40 is made in the US.

You can make your own by mixing kerosine and lubricating oil too.


BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

On Feb 23, 2:29*am, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:33:01 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."









wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:47:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\

Hi Oren,

Here is the short form of the explanation.

Naval jelly is plain old phosphoric acid (plus a wetting agent such
as plain old alcohol) which, when applied to my rusty tools, will
convert the rust to 'black powder', which I can then wash off.

Now I know how to clean up the rusty table where the tools lay:

1. Rust on the table
*http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255674.jpg

2. Pool acid on the rust
*http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255675.jpg

3. All the rust on the table gone
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255677.jpg

4. New concrete spots are the result!
*http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255678.jpg

The table is plastic. Easy

The concrete just etched. Porous

No?

Plastic is porous.
BTW why don't you spell it poros?

As in color (which should be colour)

On Feb 23, 5:50*am, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan"
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks
restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

Is there any other?g

Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him though...

I'd hire him to build *me 1940 Ford coupe, *if I decide. I provide the
parts.

You're a funny old fashioned guy?

On Feb 23, 5:59*am, Ripple Whine wrote:
nestork wrote:
Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?

No ****?

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!

That English phellow sure phinds phalt with every phreaking thing
that us phrugal home repair pholks phinish with.

Christoffer A. Yung
Phind mo bout Jezuz
www.el-dee-ess.borg (Redneck J man of Home Depot)
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!



What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

THE COLONEL wrote on %D

What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

Surface rust from rain perhaps?

"Arthur Cruz" wrote in message
...
THE COLONEL wrote on %D

What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

Surface rust from rain perhaps?


Pretty stupid way of puttin' it, pumpkin head.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:25:42 -0800, THE COLONEL wrote:
What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?
Pretty stupid way of puttin' it, pumpkin head.

The word "arse" is a wonderful example of "British english",
versus the "American English" three-letter equivalent.

However, your use of the word "hell" should be capitalized.

Moreover, a "pumpkin head" would seem to be a particularly
American English appellation; should you more appropriately
call him a "damson head?"

On Feb 22, 10:02*am, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Soak in Brulin's Unicide 256, uncut. Actually will migrate some of the
metal back into metal.

"C. Portelli" wrote in message
e...
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:25:42 -0800, THE COLONEL wrote:
What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?
Pretty stupid way of puttin' it, pumpkin head.

The word "arse" is a wonderful example of "British english",
versus the "American English" three-letter equivalent.

However, your use of the word "hell" should be capitalized.

Moreover, a "pumpkin head" would seem to be a particularly
American English appellation; should you more appropriately
call him a "damson head?"


Thanks for mucking up the entire post here, babbling Burnie; however, I was
thinking about Charlie Brown at the time.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:46:50 -0800 Robert Macy wrote:

Soak in Brulin's Unicide 256, uncut.
Actually will migrate some of the metal back

Googling, I find the MSDS over he
http://brulin.com/cmsassets/file/msds/161042_msd.pdf

10% dimethyl-N-benzylammonium Chloride (CAS 68424-85-1)
5% Didecyldimethylammonium chloride (CAS 7173-51-5)
2.5% Ethyl alcohol

I'll look up how ammonium chloride can remove rust
since I always thought it CREATED rust!

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 06:20:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

The MSDS for Lime Away says it's 2.5 to 10% Sulfamic Acid (CAS 5329-14-6).
http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/LIME...US-English.pdf

I have never heard of Sulfamic Acid but Wikipedia says it's used to
remove rust and lime by converting them to soluble calcium and iron salts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid

I'm guessing that the phosphoric acid mixes with the lime to create a
salt which is then washed away by dissolving in water.

I've used Sulfamic tile and grout cleaner. I see now they sell spray
bottles of it.

I used this one.

TileLab Sulfamic Acid Cleaner

SULFAMIC 1 lb pkg

Concentrated crystals that mix with water to make a safe to use, acid
cleaner. Removes cement grout haze, mortar residue and efflorescence
Use on tile or colored grouts . No toxic fumes.

http://www.amestile.com/upload/accessories/Sealers%20and%20cleaners/sulfamic.jpg

HD sold last time I checked.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 05:59:01 +0000 (UTC), Ripple Whine
wrote:

nestork wrote:

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?

Turn off the water and empty the bowl with an old turkey baster, done.

On Feb 23, 12:49*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:
BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

Give us a few decades; we probably will.

That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!

Feh. AEU has manhandled it so far.


Dr. Hot"with kid gloves?"Salt

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of
Ricks
restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove
rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

Is there any other?g


Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him
though...

I'd hire him to build me 1940 Ford coupe, if I decide. I
provide the
parts.

He does some nice stuff, including his wifeeg
I'd like to know what sources he uses to find out how things
actually looked before people f'ed 'em up.
It can't ALL be in his head. My grandson loves that show and
American Pickers.
I'd like to have either one of their jobs, seems like it be
a lot of fun

"Ripple Whine" wrote in message
...
That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?

Often if you turn off the water supply and put a bucket of water in the
toilet bowl most of the water will go down the drain similar to when you
flush it.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:25:42 -0800, "THE COLONEL"
wrote:

"Arthur Cruz" wrote in message
...
THE COLONEL wrote on %D

What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

Surface rust from rain perhaps?


Pretty stupid way of puttin' it, pumpkin head.

Are you insisting on a hyfen between the second and thrid words? It's
pretty clear without it.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 12:37:35 -0600, "ChairMan"
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of
Ricks
restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove
rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

Is there any other?g


Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him
though...

I'd hire him to build me 1940 Ford coupe, if I decide. I
provide the
parts.

He does some nice stuff, including his wifeeg
I'd like to know what sources he uses to find out how things
actually looked before people f'ed 'em up.
It can't ALL be in his head. My grandson loves that show and
American Pickers.
I'd like to have either one of their jobs, seems like it be
a lot of fun


I'd be guessing, but he likely has a large collection of catalogs for
collectibles and such. Even information from the companies like Coke,
Pepsi or those that make amusement games.

He does have old items sitting out back of his place that he could use
for some references.

"alien8er" wrote in message
...
On Feb 23, 12:49 am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:
BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

Give us a few decades; we probably will.

That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!

Feh. AEU has manhandled it so far.


What the hell is "feh"?

I don't know who said that Coca Cola contains phosphoric acid, but that's not true. If it were, Coca Cola would taste acidic all of the time, but it doesn't. In fact, it's easy to remove the acidic "bite" from the taste of Coca Cola.

Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks) contain an acid called "carbonic acid". They don't actually put carbonic acid in soft drinks. They only put CO2 into the soft drink and the CO2 dissolves in the soft drink and combines with H2O to form carbonic acid: CO2 + H2O = CH2O3, which is carbonic acid.



Carbonic acid is an inherently unstable molecule and breaks down to form CO2 and H2O fairly quickly, but as long as there's lots of CO2 dissolved in water, carbonic acid will form as quickly as it breaks down, and that water will remain acidic cuz of the carbonic acid in it.

It's the formation of carbonic acid from the CO2 dissolved in the water that gives Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks, and beer, and all carbonated (aka: "sparkling") wines their acidic "bite" when you taste them). To prove that, just leave any carbonated soft drink sitting in a glass over night to let all the CO2 come out of it. Then when you taste it, it'll just taste sweet like sugar water and not have any "bite" in it's taste at all. If there were acid in the soft drink to begin with it, that acid wouldn't evaporate, and it would still taste acidic, like vinegar left out in a glass over night.

It's the carbonic acid you swallow breaking down to form CO2 (gas) and H2O in your stomach that makes you burp after drinking soft drinks, beer or sparkling wine.

I kinda doubt that the amount of carbonic acid in a soft drink like Coke would be sufficiently strong to dissolve rust, so I'd stick with phosphoric acid which does work.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur

You cannot spell Yankee, so hush up, child. Ya'll talk funny. I'm not
a Yank either.

We yank the rope when we need too or pull the cord. We do not yank
anything, except a rope.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:24:35 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 23, 5:50*am, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan"
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks
restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

Is there any other?g

Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him though...

I'd hire him to build *me 1940 Ford coupe, *if I decide. I provide the
parts.

You're a funny old fashioned guy?

Sure. Unlike you with a dark cloud on every horizon.

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message ...

On 02/22/2013 03:05 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

HCl is just going to cause rust. I use muriatic to dissolve
galvanizing (for welding), and all of the ferrous objects near the
bottle end up getting very rusty.

Jon

Jon I have found that to be true also. Used muriatic acid in my shop to
remove some alkali from an item and the fumes rusted all the tools nearby..
WW

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:04:12 +0000, nestork
wrote:


harry;3018804 Wrote:

Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
or have different names.
However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
especially on stuff like saws.


I don't know who said that Coca Cola contains phosphoric acid, but
that's not true. If it were, Coca Cola would taste acidic all of the
time, but it doesn't. In fact, it's easy to remove the acidic "bite"
from the taste of Coca Cola.

Wrong.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_p..._a_can_of_Coke
http://biology.stackexchange.com/que...the-function-o


When you start with a false statement, nothing that follows is worth
reading.

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:56:02 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur

You cannot spell Yankee, so hush up, child. Ya'll talk funny. I'm not
a Yank either.

We yank the rope when we need too or pull the cord. We do not yank
anything, except a rope.

Or once in a while, a stupid Brit.

On Feb 23, 5:40*pm, "C. Portelli" wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:25:42 -0800, THE COLONEL wrote:
What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?
Pretty stupid way of puttin' it, pumpkin head.

The word "arse" is a wonderful example of "British english",
versus the "American English" three-letter equivalent.

However, your use of the word "hell" should be capitalized.

Moreover, a "pumpkin head" would seem to be a particularly
American English appellation; should you more appropriately
call him a "damson head?"

If you tell me you are "Sat on your ass", I don't know whether you
are an idle fellow or the owner of a donkey.

On Feb 24, 1:00*am, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:24:35 -0800 (PST), harry









wrote:
On Feb 23, 5:50 am, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:27:37 -0600, "ChairMan"
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:21:54 -0600, "ChairMan"

wrote:

I haven't had a chance to try it, but Rick Dale of Ricks
restoration
recently said he uses apple cider vinegar to remove rust.
Give it a try. Its cheap and can't hurt anything

Rick Dale in Las Vegas?!

Is there any other?g

Not in my book. He lives not far from me. Never met him though...

I'd hire him to build me 1940 Ford coupe, if I decide. I provide the
parts.

You're a funny old fashioned guy?

Sure. Unlike you with a dark cloud on every horizon.

I meant funny/peculiar not funny/haha!

On Feb 23, 10:04*pm, nestork wrote:
harry;3018804 Wrote:



Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
or have different names.
However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
especially on stuff like saws.

I don't know who said that Coca Cola contains phosphoric acid, but
that's not true. *If it were, Coca Cola would taste acidic all of the
time, but it doesn't. *In fact, it's easy to remove the acidic "bite"
from the taste of Coca Cola.

Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks) contain an acid called
"carbonic acid". *They don't actually put carbonic acid in soft drinks.
They only put CO2 into the soft drink and the CO2 dissolves in the soft
drink and combines with H2O to form carbonic acid: * * CO2 + H2O =
CH2O3, which is carbonic acid.

[image:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rbonic-aci...]

Carbonic acid is an inherently unstable molecule and breaks down to form
CO2 and H2O fairly quickly, but as long as there's lots of CO2 dissolved
in water, carbonic acid will form as quickly as it breaks down, and that
water will remain acidic cuz of the carbonic acid in it.

It's the formation of carbonic acid from the CO2 dissolved in the water
that gives Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks, and beer, and all
carbonated (aka: "sparkling") wines their acidic "bite" when you taste
them). *To prove that, just leave any carbonated soft drink sitting in a
glass over night to let all the CO2 come out of it. *Then when you taste
it, it'll just taste sweet like sugar water and not have any "bite" in
it's taste at all. *If there were acid in the soft drink to begin with
it, that acid wouldn't evaporate, and it would still taste acidic, like
vinegar left out in a glass over night.

It's the carbonic acid you swallow breaking down to form CO2 (gas) and
H2O in your stomach that makes you burp after drinking soft drinks, beer
or sparkling wine.

I kinda doubt that the amount of carbonic acid in a soft drink like Coke
would be sufficiently strong to dissolve rust, so I'd stick with
phosphoric acid which does work.

--
nestork

Bit here on the topic. Used as food/colas additive and as a rust
remover.
Apparently there are different sorts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid#Uses

Another good reason not to drink Coca Cola.

Naval jelly and Coke are the same thing.

Also
http://frontview.wordpress.com/2012/...cid-cocaine-2/

On Feb 23, 11:10*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:46:50 -0800 Robert Macy wrote:

Soak in Brulin's Unicide 256, uncut.
Actually will migrate some of the metal back

Googling, I find the MSDS over hehttp://brulin.com/cmsassets/file/msds/161042_msd.pdf

10% dimethyl-N-benzylammonium Chloride (CAS 68424-85-1)
5% Didecyldimethylammonium chloride (CAS 7173-51-5)
2.5% Ethyl alcohol

I'll look up how ammonium chloride can remove rust
since I always thought it CREATED rust!

If you drop a penny into the liquid [remove any oil films] in about 30
seconds it's shiny like new.

I have no idea how much phosphorus there is in Coke, but phosphorus and phsphoric acid are not the same thing just like carbon and carbon dioxide are not the same thing. And, of course, a ml of water weighs very close to one gram, so in approximately 100 grams of Coca-Cola, there are 18 milligrams of phosphorus, or about eighteen one thousandths of one percent, which is a TRACE amount, hardly the primary ingredient.

No, the active ingredients in Coke are sugar and caffeine. If phosphoric acid was the active ingredient in Coke, people who like drinking Coke would enjoy drinking phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner diluted with water.

Leave a glass of Coke and a plastic bottle cap full of phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner sitting over night and taste the Coke in the morning. I won't taste acidic at all. So, where did the phosphoric acid go to? The phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner, on the other hand, will still taste extremely acidic just as it did before.

The acidic "bite" in the taste of all soft drinks, beer, sparkling wines and soda water is due to carbonic acid. That acidity in the taste disappears as the CO2 dissipates from the beverage. That's why soft drinks go "flat" if left open too long.

Phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner doesn't get weaker if left out overnight.

No. Naval jelly contains significant amounts of phosphoric acid. Coke does not.