On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:28:35 +0000, nestork
wrote:


harry;3019314 Wrote:

Bit here on the topic. Used as food/colas additive and as a rust
remover.
Apparently there are different sorts.
'Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid#Uses)

Another good reason not to drink Coca Cola.

Naval jelly and Coke are the same thing.

Also
'Coca-Cola: Phosphoric Acid | Frontview' (http://tinyurl.com/azcurk6)


I contacted coke about this and here is what they said:

A 250 mL serving of Coca-Cola Classic contains 45 mg of
phosphorus.� The amount of phosphoric acid is
proprietary.�

Looked at another way, there are 18 mg of phosphorus per 100 ml. in
Coca-Cola Classic.� This is equivalent to the amount of
phosphorus, for example, in orange juice and considerably less than in
milk, cheese, and bread.�Proportionately, meat products have more
phosphorus than any other food.� In fact, the phosphorus in cola
beverages contributes 3% or less of the total dietary intake of
phosphorus.


I have no idea how much phosphorus there is in Coke, but phosphorus and
phsphoric acid are not the same thing just like carbon and carbon
dioxide are not the same thing. And, of course, a ml of water weighs
very close to one gram, so in approximately 100 grams of Coca-Cola,
there are 18 milligrams of phosphorus, or about eighteen one thousandths
of one percent, which is a TRACE amount, hardly the primary ingredient.

Primary? No, but it *IS* added to Coke (and Pepsi). IOW, you're
wrong.


9. The active ingredient in Coke is phosphoric acid. Its pH is 2.8.


No, the active ingredients in Coke are sugar and caffeine. If
phosphoric acid was the active ingredient in Coke, people who like
drinking Coke would enjoy drinking phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner
diluted with water.

What a stupid statement. Phosphoric acid is put there for a reason. It
enhances the flavor.

Think with your own head... that's why God saw fit to give you a head.

You must have been sleeping late that day, however.

You're *WRONG*.
more asinine arguments snipped

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 22:52:43 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

Naval jelly and Coke are the same thing

Depends on the application of the product. In this case for the OP,
naval jelly is the tool of choice.

Coke will clean windshields and chrome bumpers on vehicles.

snopes.com: Coca-Cola Acids

That Snopes web page says there's approximately 12 grams of phosphoric acid in a gallon of Coca Cola syrup.

Assuming a mix ratio of 5:1, one gallon of syrup will make 6 gallons of soft drink.
How many glasses of soda does a 5 gallon bag in a box syrup yield if each glass is 16oz? - Yahoo! Answers

One US gallon is 3785 ml. and assuming that Coke is the same density as water, that means there's 12 grams of phosphoric acid in 22,710 grams of Coke, or a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of about 5 one hundredths of one percent by weight.

(Since Coke is heavier than water because of the dissolved sugar in it, the actual percentage would be even lower.)

So, while there is phosphoric acid in Coca Cola, the amount is so tiny that Coke can't be used as a substitute for phosphoric acid.

On Feb 25, 5:14*am, nestork wrote:
;3019843 Wrote:

What a stupid statement. Phosphoric acid is put there for a reason. It
enhances the flavor.

'snopes.com: Coca-Cola Acids' (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp)

The 2 to 3 tenths of 1 percent phosphoric acid quoted in that Snopes web
page is what's in the syrup, not in the soft drink.

Assuming a mix ratio of 5:1, one gallon of syrup will make 6 gallons of
soft drink.
'How many glasses of soda does a 5 gallon bag in a box syrup yield if
each glass is 16oz? - Yahoo! Answers'
(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2061102AAAMnJf)

That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

Coca Cola can hardly be used as a substitute for phosphoric acid because
it supposedly "contains phosphoric acid".

--
nestork

Nearly all cheap soft drinks contain phosphoric acid because it is a
cheap substitute for citric acid.
Phosphoric acid can be manufactured cheaply to put in junk products
like Coca Cola.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phospho...#Food_additive

I infer you drink/feed your kids on a lot of this ****.
You need to give up and have a proper diet.

HUNH?

On 2/23/2013 3:49 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:
BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?

"Sulfur" isn't Greek. "Phosphor" is.

¬R

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000, nestork
wrote:


;3019843 Wrote:
What a stupid statement. Phosphoric acid is put there for a reason. It
enhances the flavor.


'snopes.com: Coca-Cola Acids' (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp)

The 2 to 3 tenths of 1 percent phosphoric acid quoted in that Snopes web
page is what's in the syrup, not in the soft drink.


....and it gets taken out of the syrup before it goes in the soft
drink? Did you actually think about what you wrote? (I know,
impossible)

Assuming a mix ratio of 5:1, one gallon of syrup will make 6 gallons of
soft drink.
'How many glasses of soda does a 5 gallon bag in a box syrup yield if
each glass is 16oz? - Yahoo! Answers'
(http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...2061102AAAMnJf)

That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

Coca Cola can hardly be used as a substitute for phosphoric acid because
it supposedly "contains phosphoric acid".

That fact is that you are *WRONG*. You can admit it now.

I didn't do it.
Nobody saw nothing.
You can't prove a thing.

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000 nestork wrote:

That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

While I could have bought 85% phosphoric acid for less,
I simply went to Home Depot and bought the Naval Jelly.

Here is the picture of some of the newly rusted tools before
being pinked:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287169.jpg

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000 nestork wrote:

That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

While I could have bought 85% phosphoric acid for less,
I simply went to Home Depot and bought the Naval Jelly.

Here is the picture of some of the newly rusted tools before
being pinked:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287169.jpg

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:14:10 +0000 nestork wrote:

That results in a concentration of phosphoric acid in the soft drink of
about 5 one hundredths of one percent.

While I could have bought 85% phosphoric acid for less,
I simply went to Home Depot and bought the Naval Jelly.

Here is the picture of some of the newly rusted tools before
being pinked:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287169.jpg

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:35:58 -0800, Oren wrote:
... for the OP, naval jelly is the tool of choice.

UPDATE:
Thanks everyone for the advice on the phosphoric acid.

Here is a before picture of some of the newly rusted tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287169.jpg

The pink slime was muuuuch more gloppy than I had expected:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287553.jpg

The metal turned black and was washed off in a bucket:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287531.jpg

Then it was dried before applying motor oil to the metal:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287582.jpg

In hindsight, the rust-spotted chrome worked the best, and
the prybar steel worked worst - with the saw blades fairing
rather poorly with respect to restoring the original surface:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287597.jpg

Within minutes of drying, a white "lard" formed on the tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287619.jpg

Nobody had mentioned that white lard. Any idea what it is?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287630.jpg

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:35:58 -0800, Oren wrote:
... for the OP, naval jelly is the tool of choice.

UPDATE:
Thanks everyone for the advice on the phosphoric acid.

Here is a before picture of some of the newly rusted tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287169.jpg

The pink slime was muuuuch more gloppy than I had expected:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287553.jpg

The metal turned black and was washed off in a bucket:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287531.jpg

Then it was dried before applying motor oil to the metal:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287582.jpg

In hindsight, the rust-spotted chrome worked the best, and
the prybar steel worked worst - with the saw blades fairing
rather poorly with respect to restoring the original surface:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287597.jpg

Within minutes of drying, a white "lard" formed on the tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287619.jpg

Nobody had mentioned that white lard. Any idea what it is?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287630.jpg

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:35:58 -0800, Oren wrote:
... for the OP, naval jelly is the tool of choice.

UPDATE:
Thanks everyone for the advice on the phosphoric acid.

Here is a before picture of some of the newly rusted tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287169.jpg

The pink slime was muuuuch more gloppy than I had expected:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287553.jpg

The metal turned black and was washed off in a bucket:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287531.jpg

Then it was dried before applying motor oil to the metal:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287582.jpg

In hindsight, the rust-spotted chrome worked the best, and
the prybar steel worked worst - with the saw blades fairing
rather poorly with respect to restoring the original surface:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287597.jpg

Within minutes of drying, a white "lard" formed on the tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287619.jpg

Nobody had mentioned that white lard. Any idea what it is?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287630.jpg

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:28:25 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Jesus. Something is wrong (again) with aioe.org because it just hung
and hung.

I see, belatedly, it posted three times!

Sorry about that.

Note: This may post 3 times also (so I will refrain from posting
if that happens). I hope aioe can fix themselves soon if that's the case.

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:28:25 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Jesus. Something is wrong (again) with aioe.org because it just hung
and hung.

I see, belatedly, it posted three times!

Sorry about that.

Note: This may post 3 times also (so I will refrain from posting
if that happens). I hope aioe can fix themselves soon if that's the case.

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:28:25 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Jesus. Something is wrong (again) with aioe.org because it just hung
and hung.

I see, belatedly, it posted three times!

Sorry about that.

Note: This may post 3 times also (so I will refrain from posting
if that happens). I hope aioe can fix themselves soon if that's the case.

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:28:25 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:35:58 -0800, Oren wrote:
... for the OP, naval jelly is the tool of choice.

UPDATE:
Thanks everyone for the advice on the phosphoric acid.

Here is a before picture of some of the newly rusted tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287169.jpg

The pink slime was muuuuch more gloppy than I had expected:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287553.jpg


Did you use two thin to medium coats within 20 minutes? (instructions)
Brushed on. Allowed to cure 24 hours?

The metal turned black and was washed off in a bucket:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287531.jpg

Washed using rubbing alcohol or mineral spirits?

Then it was dried before applying motor oil to the metal:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287582.jpg


I'd likely would have done two treatments before oiling. (two thin
coats each treatment)

In hindsight, the rust-spotted chrome worked the best, and
the prybar steel worked worst - with the saw blades fairing
rather poorly with respect to restoring the original surface:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287597.jpg

Within minutes of drying, a white "lard" formed on the tools:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287619.jpg

Nobody had mentioned that white lard. Any idea what it is?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287630.jpg

Not sure unless the tools were not coated uniformly (close), allowed
to cure completely.

Where can you buy phosphoric acid at 85 percent concentration?
The highest I've been able to find in a retail product is 40 percent.

On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 10:24:06 -0800 Oren wrote:
Did you use two thin to medium coats within 20 minutes?
Brushed on. Allowed to cure 24 hours?

Now that's interesting. The instructions on the bottle simply
say to brush on and wait five or ten minutes and wash off.

They say nothing about two coats, and 20 minutes is twice
the time it says on the bottle. So, maybe I didn't let it
sit long enough...

Washed using rubbing alcohol or mineral spirits?

Ooops. Again, the instructions on the bottle didn't say that.
They just said to wash with water. Which is what I did.


I'd likely would have done two treatments before oiling.

I guess I can still treat them again if I wash the oil off.

PS: I hope aioe doesn't give me three posts again!

Danny:

Can you give me more information on the source of 85 percent concentration phosphoric acid? Is it a retail product or was that what you were quoted from a chemical/lab supply place?

Motor oil works fine. For more delicate stuff like firearms, light oils like "Rem Oil," which comes in a nice spray can is excellent. For longer term storage, I like Hoppe's Rust Inhibiting grease. Just apply with a rag in either case.

WD-40 (let the flames begin) is basically kerosene and some sort of solvent carrier. Nice for cleaning stuff up, but minimal rust inhibiting qualities.. I live on the DE shore, and salt air is not your friend here. I take all my tools off of the tool board/tool boxes about once every 6 months and wipe them down. Saves a lot of grief.

I have used Naval Jelly on really bad cases, but in general, oil and fine steel wool seems to be satisfactory. If finish damage is a possibility, I believe some people suggest bronze wool, which won't scratch as much.

For some stuff, I've used "Instant Cold Gun Blue" to put a more permanent finish (you still need oil) on some small tools.

/paul W3FIS

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:49:33 -0800 deadgoose38 wrote:

WD-40 (let the flames begin) is basically kerosene

I never understood WD-40 versus plain old motor oil.
So I have a can, but I never use it. It lasts forever that way.

I believe some people suggest bronze wool, which won't
scratch as much.

You'll note that I used a bronze toothbrush (see center in the picture
below).
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12287553.jpg

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:36:30 +0000 nestork wrote:

Can you give me more information on the source of 85 percent
concentration phosphoric acid?
Is it a retail product or was that what
you were quoted from a chemical/lab supply place?

Sure.

That 85% H3P04 was based on this post I did on Sat 23 Feb at 06:44:45 (UTC):
Looking up sources of phosphoric acid, I see I can also buy 85% H3PO4
at about $13/Liter or $40/gallon (which makes a ton of naval jelly).
http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php...hosphoric+acid

Here is another source of H3PO4 at $50/gallon:
http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_...er_pricing.htm

I'm thinking of buying the stuff, just to experiment with it.
With shipping, it should come to something like $18 a liter which
would be compared to 3 liters of Naval Jelly to have the same amount
of Phosphoric Acid, which would come to about $24 or so.

One thing though, that Naval Jelly is THICK STUFF, which I presume
the phosphoric acid isn't as thick - but either one would work for my
tools.

Note:
I'm having trouble with aioe so I hope this (a) posts, & (b) posts only once!
(To make matters worse, Aioe all day said (441 Banlist), probably because
they think I'm multiple posting - which is funny because it's only happening
with Aioe since I post under multiple nyms and nntp accounts).

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 03:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:49:33 -0800 deadgoose38 wrote:

WD-40 (let the flames begin) is basically kerosene

I never understood WD-40 versus plain old motor oil.
So I have a can, but I never use it. It lasts forever that way.


Hey. WD-40 is what I use in my paper shredder. Motor oil would get
messy really fast. It has a purpose, ya know :-\

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 03:14:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:36:30 +0000 nestork wrote:

Can you give me more information on the source of 85 percent
concentration phosphoric acid?
Is it a retail product or was that what
you were quoted from a chemical/lab supply place?

Sure.

That 85% H3P04 was based on this post I did on Sat 23 Feb at 06:44:45 (UTC):
Looking up sources of phosphoric acid, I see I can also buy 85% H3PO4
at about $13/Liter or $40/gallon (which makes a ton of naval jelly).
http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php...hosphoric+acid

Here is another source of H3PO4 at $50/gallon:
http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_...er_pricing.htm

I'm thinking of buying the stuff, just to experiment with it.
With shipping, it should come to something like $18 a liter which
would be compared to 3 liters of Naval Jelly to have the same amount
of Phosphoric Acid, which would come to about $24 or so.

One thing though, that Naval Jelly is THICK STUFF, which I presume
the phosphoric acid isn't as thick - but either one would work for my
tools.

No, it's not. That's one of the advantages of NJ. It can be glopped
onto surfaces in any orientation.


I use Boeshield stuff on my cast iron tools. The protectant works
quite well, though it's not as slick as I'd like. The rest remover
works but takes some elbow grease.


Note:
I'm having trouble with aioe so I hope this (a) posts, & (b) posts only once!
(To make matters worse, Aioe all day said (441 Banlist), probably because
they think I'm multiple posting - which is funny because it's only happening
with Aioe since I post under multiple nyms and nntp accounts).

There is an easy solution for that.

OK, thanks anyhow. By the time I pay shipping charges, brokerage fees to get it across the border and provincial sales tax on it, it'll cost three times as much. I'll just stick with the 40 percent stuff I can get easily here.

You don't really need to buy 85% phosphoric acid. I've never needed anything stronger than the 14 percent stuff I buy in the form of a toilet bowl cleaner, and you can get that almost anywhere.

Phosphoric acid is handy to have around the house because:

1. It's the active ingredient in many toilet bowl cleaners. Given a little time, it's strong enough to dissolve anything you'd expect to find in a toilet bowl.

2. It's also commonly used as the active ingredient in bathroom cleaners because it'll cut through soap scum like a hot knife through butter, but won't harm chrome or chrome plating, even at high concentrations. So, you can use it to clean the soap scum off a bathtub without concern that it'll attack the chrome plating on the brass drain at the bottom of the tub. It WILL dissolve cement based tile grout though, but only very slowly at a 14% concentration like you find in toilet bowl cleaners, and even less slowly at the 6% concentration you find it in in bathroom cleaners.

3. And, of course, you know that it reacts with rust to form iron phosphate, which is a stable compound that somewhat protects the underlying iron from further rusting.


Ungelled 40 % phosphoric acid is no more viscous than water. 14% gelled phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner is about as viscous as pancake syrup. Both would convert rust to iron phosphate.

Ungelled 40 percent phosphoric acid can be purchased at any place listed under "Janitorial Equipment & Supplies" in your yellow pages phone book. Just phone around to find out who sells "Buckeye International" cleaning chemicals and ask if they stock "Sparkle" bathroom cleaner. If not, they should be able to order it in for you. I wouldn't use Sparkle bathroom cleaner at 40% concentration on cement based ceramic tiling grout without diluting it significantly first.

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:07:43 +0000 nestork wrote:

2. It's also commonly used as the active ingredient in bathroom cleaners
because it'll cut through soap scum like a hot knife through butter, but
won't harm chrome or chrome plating, even at high concentrations.

I did notice that the chrome plated tools fared best of all
the tools.

The rougher metal tools fared worst (pry bars & saws).

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:07:43 +0000 nestork wrote:

It WILL dissolve cement based tile grout, but only very slowly at a 14%
concentration like you find in toilet bowl cleaners, and almost not at
all in the 6% concentration you find it in in bathroom cleaners.

I have hard water (white calcium carbonate) at something like 15ppm or so.

Do you think the naval jelly will work on that on the shower glass
without etching?

On Fri, 1 Mar 2013 00:12:19 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:07:43 +0000 nestork wrote:

It WILL dissolve cement based tile grout, but only very slowly at a 14%
concentration like you find in toilet bowl cleaners, and almost not at
all in the 6% concentration you find it in in bathroom cleaners.

I have hard water (white calcium carbonate) at something like 15ppm or so.

Do you think the naval jelly will work on that on the shower glass
without etching?

The calcium can etch glass shower surrounds. White vinegar is a
milder acid. Takes lawn sprinkler over-spray off of a car without
dame to the finish. Same in the shower.

2 cents

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:03:08 -0800 Oren wrote:

White vinegar is a milder acid.

True. And, that's even cheaper stuff (at Costco anyway).

Phosphoric acid won't harm glass.

Both ceramic wall tiles and toilet bowls are "glazed". My understanding is that they're fired once to set the clay, and then painted with a glazing paint and fired again so that paint melts and forms a glass surface on the hard clay. So, there's a thin film of glass on the surface of both ceramic wall tiles and a toilet bowl. Phosphoric acid doesn't harm that glass, so I don't see why it would do any harm to your glass shower doors or glass shower surround.

Some shower door frames are made of aluminum. If yours are aluminum, I'd test the phosphoric acid on it in an inconspicuous spot first.

(Oven cleaner (aka: sodium hydroxide or NaOH or "lye") will dissolve aluminum.)

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

UPDATE:
I'm finding more and more uses for the phosphoric acid you guys suggested!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12362092.jpg

After ten minutes, I see that buttery white stuff again.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12362093.jpg

The unknown white lard 'seems' to be where the rust was heaviest.

In sci.electronics.repair Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

UPDATE:
I'm finding more and more uses for the phosphoric acid you guys suggested!
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12362092.jpg

After ten minutes, I see that buttery white stuff again.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12362093.jpg

The unknown white lard 'seems' to be where the rust was heaviest.

the white crud is from letting the pink slime dry. you have to really
scrub it off, then it's gone for good.