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Default What's a good way to get rid of rain surface rust on tools leftoutside

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:02:05 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?


http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/s_trmt_naval/overview/Loctite-Naval-Jelly-Rust-Dissolver.htm

....along with some steel wool

Once cleaned to your liking then oil the tools.
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Harry:

You could probably save yourself some money here.

Oren's recommendation of Loctite's Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver utilizes a well known chemical reaction between rust and phosphoric acid that converts the rust into a black compound called Ferric Phosphate or FePO4.

Here's what Wikipedia says about using Phosphoric acid to convert rust to Ferric Phosphate:
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rust removal:
Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4.

"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.

After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off, leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance (such protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating processes).
__________________________________________________ _______________________________


So, I took a look at the MSDS for Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver, and sure enough it's mostly phosphoric acid. It's got 10 to 30 percent phosphoric acid in it. It's got some other stuff in it too, but those other things are to gel it so that it can be applied to vertical surfaces and overhead:

Household Products Database - Health and Safety Information on Household Products

Now, phosphoric acid is commonly used as the active ingredient in toilet bowl cleaners. If you just go down to your local home center or hardware store and look at the toilet bowl cleaners they sell, many of them will give a phosphoric acid content, or have a warning saying that it contains phosphoric acid.

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

If Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver has a phosphoric acid content of 10 to 30 percent, you can use any phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner with a phosphoric acid content between 10 and 30 percent to get identical results as you'd get with the Loctite product.

Many toilet bowl cleaners will contain hydrochloric acid, but you want to use phosphoric acid for converting rust into that stable black compound, ferric phosphate.

Also, EVERY janitorial supply store listed under "Janitorial Equipment & Supplies" will, in all certainty, sell a phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner you can use on your tools.

Phosphoric acid is a mild acid. It's about the same strength as CLR. It won't harm your tools if you leave it on too long, but doing that won't remove any more rust. Once the rust turns black, just wash the remaining phosphoric acid off your tools with water and dry immediately with a rag or paper towels.

Rubbing oil over the ferric phosphate won't do anything, and it'll only make dirt stick to your tools. I would leave out the business about applying oil to anything because as soon as you use that tool, the oil film will get wiped/rubbed off anyway. Just keep your tools dry.

Last edited by nestork : February 23rd 13 at 01:44 AM
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nestork wrote:

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf


That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?
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On Feb 23, 5:59*am, Ripple Whine wrote:
nestork wrote:
Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf


That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?


No ****?


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On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 05:59:01 +0000 (UTC), Ripple Whine
wrote:

nestork wrote:

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf


That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?


Turn off the water and empty the bowl with an old turkey baster, done.
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"Ripple Whine" wrote in message
...
That PDF says to empty the toilet bowl of water.

How do they accomplish that?


Often if you turn off the water supply and put a bucket of water in the
toilet bowl most of the water will go down the drain similar to when you
flush it.



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nestork wrote:

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":
http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf


The PDF says it "Removes rust, lime and organic deposits".

Clearly it removes rust - but HOW does it remove calcium oxide (aka lime)
and what does it mean by organic deposits (other than carbohydrates)?

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On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 06:02:28 +0000, Ripple Whine wrote:

Clearly it removes rust - but HOW does it remove calcium oxide (aka lime)
and what does it mean by organic deposits (other than carbohydrates)?


I have no idea, but googling, I see that phosphoric acid reacts with calcium
oxide to form calcium phosphate and water.
http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/q...water-q1594465

So the question is really why would we want to convert toilet bowl
limescale to toilet bowl calcium phosphate [Ca2(PO4)3].

Offhand, my guess is that mixing the acid plus the base, nets a salt
which is (I'm guessing) soluble in water - hence easily cleaned.

Since my shower stall is VERY stained with hard water deposits, I might
try it (but I generally use LimeAway) as a separate experiment for the team.

The MSDS for Lime Away says it's 2.5 to 10% Sulfamic Acid (CAS 5329-14-6).
http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/LIME...US-English.pdf

I have never heard of Sulfamic Acid but Wikipedia says it's used to
remove rust and lime by converting them to soluble calcium and iron salts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid

I'm guessing that the phosphoric acid mixes with the lime to create a
salt which is then washed away by dissolving in water.

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On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 06:20:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

The MSDS for Lime Away says it's 2.5 to 10% Sulfamic Acid (CAS 5329-14-6).
http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/LIME...US-English.pdf

I have never heard of Sulfamic Acid but Wikipedia says it's used to
remove rust and lime by converting them to soluble calcium and iron salts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid

I'm guessing that the phosphoric acid mixes with the lime to create a
salt which is then washed away by dissolving in water.


I've used Sulfamic tile and grout cleaner. I see now they sell spray
bottles of it.

I used this one.

TileLab Sulfamic Acid Cleaner

SULFAMIC 1 lb pkg

Concentrated crystals that mix with water to make a safe to use, acid
cleaner. Removes cement grout haze, mortar residue and efflorescence
Use on tile or colored grouts . No toxic fumes.

http://www.amestile.com/upload/accessories/Sealers%20and%20cleaners/sulfamic.jpg

HD sold last time I checked.


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On Feb 23, 1:18*am, nestork wrote:
Harry:

You could probably save yourself some money here.

Oren's recommendation of Loctite's Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver utilizes a
well known chemical reaction between rust and phosphoric acid that
converts the rust into a black compound called Ferric Phosphate or
FePO4.

Here's what Wikipedia says about using Phosphoric acid to convert rust
to Ferric Phosphate:
__________________________________________________ _________________________ ______

'Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid)

Rust removal:
Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application
to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts
reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate,
FePO4.

"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in
the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is
more often formulated as a gel, commonly called "naval jelly". It is
sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust
killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even
overhead surfaces.

After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid
may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also
be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion
resistance (such protection is also provided by the superficially
similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating
processes).
__________________________________________________ _________________________ ______

So, I took a look at the MSDS for Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver,
and sure enough it's mostly phosphoric acid. *It's got 10 to 30 percent
phosphoric acid in it. *It's got some other stuff in it too, but those
other things are to gel it so that it can be applied to vertical
surfaces and overhead:

'Household Products Database - Health and Safety Information on
Household Products' (http://tinyurl.com/bfjgnv8)

Now, phosphoric acid is commonly used as the active ingredient in toilet
bowl cleaners. *If you just go down to your local home center or
hardware store and look at the toilet bowl cleaners they sell, many of
them will give a phosphoric acid content, or have a warning saying that
it contains phosphoric acid.

Here's a phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner being marketed by a
company called "Iowa Prison Industries":http://www.iaprisonind.com/downloads...osAcidBowl.pdf

If Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver has a phosphoric acid content of
10 to 30 percent, you can use any phosphoric acid toilet bowl cleaner
with a phosphoric acid content between 10 and 30 percent to get
identical results as you'd get with the Loctite product.

Many toilet bowl cleaners will contain hydrochloric acid, but you want
to use phosphoric acid for converting rust into that stable black
compound, ferric phosphate.

Also, EVERY janitorial supply store listed under "Janitorial Equipment &
Supplies" will, in all certainty, sell a phosphoric acid toilet bowl
cleaner you can use on your tools.

Phosphoric acid is a mild acid. *It's about the same strength as CLR.
It won't harm your tools if you leave it on too long, but doing that
won't remove any more rust. *Once the rust turns black, just wash the
remaining phosphoric acid off your tools with water and dry immediately
with a rag or paper towels.

Rubbing oil over the ferric phosphate won't do anything, and it'll only
make dirt stick to your tools. *I would leave out the business about
applying oil to anything because as soon as you use that tool,

the oil
film will get wiped/rubbed off anyway. *Just keep your tools dry.

--
nestork


Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
or have different names.
However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
especially on stuff like saws.

WD40 is much faster to apply than rubbing on oil.
Some tools are meant to get wet (eg garden spades)
WD40 has worked fine with me for years, just give
stuff a quick waft when I put it away.
I have a 5litre can of the stuff and a manual refillable aerosol.
BTW, WD40 is made in the US.

You can make your own by mixing kerosine and lubricating oil too.


BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?
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On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?


That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!

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That English phellow sure phinds phalt with every phreaking thing
that us phrugal home repair pholks phinish with.

Christoffer A. Yung
Phind mo bout Jezuz
www.el-dee-ess.borg (Redneck J man of Home Depot)
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?


That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!



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"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?


That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!



What the hell is "rain surface rust," elephant arse?

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On Feb 23, 12:49*am, "Danny D." wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:
BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?


Give us a few decades; we probably will.

That's a good one for alt.english.usage to handle!


Feh. AEU has manhandled it so far.


Dr. Hot"with kid gloves?"Salt


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On 2/23/2013 3:49 AM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800, harry wrote:
BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur.
Why don'tyou spel phosphoric as fosforic?


"Sulfur" isn't Greek. "Phosphor" is.

¬R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry View Post
Well as I am in the UK many of these products are not available
or have different names.
However we do (unfortunately) have Coca Cola.
I have heard it will remove rust. (Phosphoric acid,)
The problem with acid treatments is it can affect cutting edges,
especially on stuff like saws.
I don't know who said that Coca Cola contains phosphoric acid, but that's not true. If it were, Coca Cola would taste acidic all of the time, but it doesn't. In fact, it's easy to remove the acidic "bite" from the taste of Coca Cola.

Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks) contain an acid called "carbonic acid". They don't actually put carbonic acid in soft drinks. They only put CO2 into the soft drink and the CO2 dissolves in the soft drink and combines with H2O to form carbonic acid: CO2 + H2O = CH2O3, which is carbonic acid.



Carbonic acid is an inherently unstable molecule and breaks down to form CO2 and H2O fairly quickly, but as long as there's lots of CO2 dissolved in water, carbonic acid will form as quickly as it breaks down, and that water will remain acidic cuz of the carbonic acid in it.

It's the formation of carbonic acid from the CO2 dissolved in the water that gives Coca Cola (and all carbonated soft drinks, and beer, and all carbonated (aka: "sparkling") wines their acidic "bite" when you taste them). To prove that, just leave any carbonated soft drink sitting in a glass over night to let all the CO2 come out of it. Then when you taste it, it'll just taste sweet like sugar water and not have any "bite" in it's taste at all. If there were acid in the soft drink to begin with it, that acid wouldn't evaporate, and it would still taste acidic, like vinegar left out in a glass over night.

It's the carbonic acid you swallow breaking down to form CO2 (gas) and H2O in your stomach that makes you burp after drinking soft drinks, beer or sparkling wine.

I kinda doubt that the amount of carbonic acid in a soft drink like Coke would be sufficiently strong to dissolve rust, so I'd stick with phosphoric acid which does work.

Last edited by nestork : February 23rd 13 at 10:49 PM
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On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur


You cannot spell Yankee, so hush up, child. Ya'll talk funny. I'm not
a Yank either.

We yank the rope when we need too or pull the cord. We do not yank
anything, except a rope.
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On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:56:02 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 00:19:55 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

BTW you Yanks spell sulphur as sulfur


You cannot spell Yankee, so hush up, child. Ya'll talk funny. I'm not
a Yank either.

We yank the rope when we need too or pull the cord. We do not yank
anything, except a rope.


Or once in a while, a stupid Brit.
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On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?


Steel wool and WD40


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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?


Steel wool and WD40


....and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly


I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...

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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly


I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...


Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\
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On 2/22/2013 6:47 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly


I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...


Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\


Reading this, I'd be tempted to try Coca Cola as a rust remover.
I believe it has phosphoric acid in it.
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:47:19 -0800, Oren wrote:

Gosh. To much science involved for me. Use Navel Jelly I say :-\


Hi Oren,

Here is the short form of the explanation.

Naval jelly is plain old phosphoric acid (plus a wetting agent such
as plain old alcohol) which, when applied to my rusty tools, will
convert the rust to 'black powder', which I can then wash off.

Now I know how to clean up the rusty table where the tools lay:

1. Rust on the table
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255674.jpg

2. Pool acid on the rust
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255675.jpg

3. All the rust on the table gone
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255677.jpg

4. New concrete spots are the result!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12255678.jpg



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On 02/22/2013 03:05 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?


HCl is just going to cause rust. I use muriatic to dissolve
galvanizing (for welding), and all of the ferrous objects near the
bottle end up getting very rusty.

Jon



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"Jon Danniken" wrote in message ...

On 02/22/2013 03:05 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?


HCl is just going to cause rust. I use muriatic to dissolve
galvanizing (for welding), and all of the ferrous objects near the
bottle end up getting very rusty.

Jon

Jon I have found that to be true also. Used muriatic acid in my shop to
remove some alkali from an item and the fumes rusted all the tools nearby..
WW


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"Danny D." wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

Naval Jelly


I wonder how it works.

I looked up naval jelly and it appears to be phosphoric acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid
H3PO4
The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide,
Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4
The black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off,
leaving a fresh metal surface.

Here is the Henkel MSDS:
http://www.henkelcamsds.com/pdf/5534...issolver.p df
Loctite Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver
Henkel Corporation, 32150 Just Imagine Drive, Avon, Ohio 44011
Telephone: 800-624-7767 (emergency 800-424-9300)
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
Phosphate ester 1-5%
Isopropyl alcohol (CAS 67-63-0) 1-5%
Polysaccharide 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9)0.1-1%
Water 50%
pH 1.5 - 2.5
Forms Hydrogen, by reaction with metals

The Loctite MSDS shows a slightly different composition:
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/techdata-msds.shtml
Phosphoric acid (CAS 7664-38-2) 10-30%
2-Propanol (CAS 67-63-0 1-5%
Sulfuric acid (CAS 7664-93-9) 0.1% - 1%
Silicon dioxide (CAS 7631-86-9 ) 0.1% - 1%
Diiron trioxide (CAS 1309-37-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
Magnesium oxide (CAS 1309-48-4 ) 0.1% - 1%
Aluminum oxide, (CAS fibrous 1344-28-1 ) 0.1% - 1%
pH 1.5 - 2.5

The Loctite technical datasheet at the same location says
to brush it on metal, leave for 5 to 10 minutes, and wash off.

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.

Having read all this - I wonder if pool accid (muriatic acid,
hydrochloric acid) will work (since I already have lots of that)?

Googling ...


I don't think using acid is good at first. It would make a good last step
to get into holes. If you leave navel jelly on, it with start to build big
black marks, much like rust converter. I've done this on car rust spots. It
will not rust further once the conversion takes place. Yo can buy
phosphoric at the auto store. It's a paint prep.
Light rust can be taken off with scotchbrite and soapy water.

Greg
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:05:54 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

The Permatex version of naval jelly MSDS says:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61w2z5V6VMS.pdf
10 Columbus Blvd., Hartford, Connecticut 06106, 877-376-2839
Permatex Naval Jelly Rust Dissolver is an acid based
thixotropic liquid for dissolving rust on iron and steel surfaces.


Had to look up 'thixotropic'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy

Certain gels or fluids that are thick (viscous) under normal
conditions flow (become thin, less viscous) over time when shaken,
agitated, or otherwise stressed. They then take a fixed time to
return to a more viscous state.

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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?


Steel wool and WD40


...and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.



You're correct. My dad was a old builder/carpenter and had naval
jelly around. I presume for the rust on tools? Gee, you're a
pretty smart fella except when it comes to guns grin.


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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:58:29 -0600, Doug
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Steel wool and WD40


...and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.



You're correct. My dad was a old builder/carpenter and had naval
jelly around. I presume for the rust on tools? Gee, you're a
pretty smart fella except when it comes to guns grin.


I know my guns. And a tad about rust.

Guns are tools. I ran, controlled, issued and spent many hours in an
Armory making ammo. At least one of those guns shot two escapees in
the ass at ~ 100 yards, maybe one was just hit in the leg. Fun was I
modified at government expenses. 144mm Howitzers are a hoot to shoot.
Make me happy...

Doug, please do not confuse me with yourself about guns. You said
before you would stay out of gun talk, Here you are again - got cha!

My wife is a former range instructor in firearms, Shall we teach you?
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:48:59 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:58:29 -0600, Doug
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:57:28 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Feb 22, 5:02*pm, "Danny D." wrote:
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?

Steel wool and WD40

...and he would spend a week doing the task.

Naval Jelly has been around since before I was knee-high to a
grasshopper. Carpenters used it on hand saws to clean off rust, at
least the smart ones did. Then they oiled the saw blades. I'd agree
with the steel wool in 0 or 00 size.

Naval Jelly was bought buy Locktite and still available. The jelly is
a rust dissolver. I also use the same brand rust neutralizer -
different uses.

Less effort, better results.



You're correct. My dad was a old builder/carpenter and had naval
jelly around. I presume for the rust on tools? Gee, you're a
pretty smart fella except when it comes to guns grin.


I know my guns. And a tad about rust.

Guns are tools. I ran, controlled, issued and spent many hours in an
Armory making ammo. At least one of those guns shot two escapees in
the ass at ~ 100 yards, maybe one was just hit in the leg. Fun was I
modified at government expenses. 144mm Howitzers are a hoot to shoot.
Make me happy...

Doug, please do not confuse me with yourself about guns. You said
before you would stay out of gun talk, Here you are again - got cha!

My wife is a former range instructor in firearms, Shall we teach you?



No.

Now back on topic or closer to topic... I need to see if I have any
naval jelly around because I could use it right now. I see a bit of
rust on a bottom of a built in oven.

Just in case, is naval jelly sold in hardware stores? And I'll
probably need some heat resistant paint for touch up on the oven (if I
want to be picky about it).
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:31:21 -0800, harry wrote:

Steel wool and WD40


warning ... RANDOM rust removal ideas follow ... / warning

Seems like the naval jelly & steel wool win out for removing the rust,
and then you guys add an oil (I'm not sure why WD-40 over any other oil).

Looking up what else works, I see there is some discussion as
to whether hydrochloric acid (HCL) or muriatic pool acid would
work since HCl is used to pickle steel (and I have gallons of HCl):
http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/22/21953.htm

Apparently Hydrochloric acid + iron yields iron chloride.

But, if you don't wash all the iron chloride out, water + iron chloride
in a warm environment will regenerate iron oxide (rust) + HCl.

On the other hand, phosphoric acid + iron yields iron phosphate, which,
even if you leave it on the metal, won't go back to iron oxide.

So the phosphoric acid is better than hydrochloric acid for rust removal.

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On Feb 22, 5:34*pm, "Danny D." wrote:

Looking up what else works, I see there is some discussion as
to whether hydrochloric acid (HCL) or muriatic pool acid would
work since HCl is used to pickle steel (and I have gallons of HCl):
*
Apparently Hydrochloric acid + iron yields iron chloride.

But, if you don't wash all the iron chloride out, water + iron chloride
in a warm environment will regenerate iron oxide (rust) + HCl.


I screwed up when I left the lid off a container of HCl setting on my
shop bench. Two days later when I went back in the shop the fumes had
caused every iron tool hanging on the pegboard to have a film of rust
similar to your toolbox. HCl never comes inside any more.



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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:56:30 -0800 (PST), Red
wrote:

I screwed up when I left the lid off a container of HCl setting on my
shop bench. Two days later when I went back in the shop the fumes had
caused every iron tool hanging on the pegboard to have a film of rust
similar to your toolbox. HCl never comes inside any more.


The pool acid can narly up the metal in a pool pump enclosure (closet)

Even with the cap on, acid off gases out of plastic jugs -- rust.


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I'd try wire brush and WD-40. Good an answer as any.

Used to be you could buy rust remover jelly.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Danny D." wrote in message
...
Toolbox was left outside for a couple of months (forgot about it).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252772.jpg

What's the best way to get this surface rust off?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12252771.jpg

Do you just wipe and soak in oil?
Do you use a special formulation?

How do you generally handle surface rust on tools?



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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.


So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?

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"Danny D." wrote in news:kg8tqg$60g$2
@speranza.aioe.org:

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.


So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust,



There's a better alternative these days: EvapoRust. This stuff is
absolutely astounding. It's one of those genuine advances, like the
discovery of germs.

The stuff is literally like magic. Drop your parts in this non-toxic, water
soluble liquid, leave it overnight, and it's as though there was never any
rust on the parts to begin with. A very nice side benefit is that your
original surface texture remains undamaged, unlike wire-brushing.

I've used Naval Jelly for years, but this stuff just totally outclasses it.

http://www.evaporust.com/

The only drawback is that the part you're trying to de-rust needs to be
completely submerged in EvapoRust. You cannot paint it on a surface the way
you would with Naval Jelly, so de-rusting fenders and the like is not
possible unless you have a stock tank full of EvapoRust.

As for rust-preventive treatment afterwards, just a wipe with motor oil is
fine.


--
Tegger
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 23:41:04 +0000, Tegger wrote:

There's a better alternative these days: EvapoRust.


Googling, I find a recommendation at, of all places, "The Rust Store":
http://www.theruststore.com/Hand-Too...val-W13C2.aspx

The MSDS for Evapo-Rust says absolutely nothing about what's in it:
http://www.evaporust.com/docs/MSDS%20Evaporust.pdf

As for how it works:
http://www.evapo-rust.com/howitworks/
Apparently the synthetic chelating agent of Evapo-Rust removes the
iron in iron oxide by creating a ferric sulfate complex, and sometimes
there is a black residue from the carbon in the steel.
http://www.evapo-rust.com/faq/

Googling some more, I find Evapo-Rust is "patent pending" by
Harris International, so if we can find the patent, we can figure
out what that synthetic chelating agent is.

The trademark was apparently registered by Daubert Cromwell, LLC in July 2009.
http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/index.jsp

Googling also found "bio-rust" which may be the same thing.
http://www.walter.com/PortalBuilder/...BIO-RUST_E.pdf

BTW, some say molasses works the same way:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/b...e/viewall.html

Which might be why the patent was apparently NOT GRANTED even though
it was filed in 2000.

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"Danny D." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd try wire brush and WD-40.


So the two answers were wire brush & phosphoric acid to remove the
rust, and then WD-40 as a rust preventive.

Speaking of rust preventive, do you generally put WD-40 on your
tools or just those that have been wire brushed?

Or can I substitute motor oil for WD-40 (I never understood WD-40).

I ask because I never oiled tools before also.

Is the oil needed because the wire brush removed a thin layer
of oxide?


Seems that WD-40 is the word of choice for those that don't know any beter.
Cures moles, colds, and tight buttholes.

Motor oil is fine. Most any oil will do to keep the rust down. The oil
provides a barrier from the tool to the air and water. There is a product
made by LPS that is made to help prevent rust. I think it is called LPS2.

The best way is not to let the tools get wet, and wipe them down every year
or so if you do not use them very often.







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