Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? (By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): == is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. -- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator.

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
||
||
||
Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator


TIA for any advice,
Pat

On Jul 7, 11:29*am, wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

Using plugs gets around code. I'm thinking using original breaker to
outlet. Another outlet to generator. Plug from original line to
fridge. These outlets would be near outside the box or another
location. No switches involved.

Greg

On Jul 7, 10:29*am, wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

I like idea 2, it is simple and easy to understand now, and in the
future too.

On Jul 7, 11:43*am, Gz wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:29*am, wrote:





Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

Using plugs gets around code. I'm thinking using original breaker to
outlet. Another outlet to generator. Plug from original line to
fridge. These outlets would be near outside the box or another
location. No switches involved.

Greg- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I ran a line from the generator to a plug box mounted right under the
house current box that the refrigerator plugs into. When the lights go
out, I unplug from house current and into the generator box. Since
your plug is hard to get to, run the line to the basement and have the
side-by-side plugs. Be sure to label them.

Paul

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT), Gz wrote:

On Jul 7, 11:29*am, wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

Using plugs gets around code. I'm thinking using original breaker to
outlet. Another outlet to generator. Plug from original line to
fridge. These outlets would be near outside the box or another
location. No switches involved.

Greg

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the input. To be clear, you are saying it is OK for a line
that plugs into an outlet to run into hidden spaces and power a normal
outlet somewhere else in the house. Right?

Pat

On Jul 7, 11:29*am, wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

If you are loosing power for long enough for a fridge to get warm then
I suggest you might as well get a generator that can supply you with
more power. I comfortably run my whole 3000 sqft house with the
exception of major appliance such as the hvac, electric oven, and
electric dryer off of a cheap 4400 watt generator. Since I only use
it for power outages I don't care that it won't last for thousands of
hours. You can get a used one for a few hundred dollars on craigs
list, a new one for 5 or 600.

I backfeed it and there are code compliant ways to do that. All you
need is a pair of breakers at the top of your main panel and a
mechanical lockout for the panel main. http://www.interlockkit.com/
I open the breakers to the major appliances I don't want to run. It
will run both my air handlers since I have gas heat.

In article ,
wrote:

A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house.

So put it in anyway, but don't use any electricity except the fridge,
and maybe a CFL or two. Later when you upgrade the generator, you'll
already have the transfer switch.

On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 11:29:08 -0400, wrote:

Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? (By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): == is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. -- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator.

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
||
||
||
Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator


TIA for any advice,
Pat


Putting a plug on the fridge is the best way.
I just went through 2 power outages a week ago due to storms.
One 71 hours, the other 12 hours.
Not common around here.
Last outage was maybe 10 years ago, for a few hours.
We had to toss out what we had in the fridge with the 71 hour outage.
Maybe $50 worth of food max. Beer was still good.
If we had any steak or shrimp in there we would have cooked it on the
Weber and ate good.
The 12 hour outage didn't even start to melt the ice cubes.
Anyway, I've given this some thought.
This is just my opinion, and the methods I examined for powering
during an outage.
I don't want a generator for infrequent outages.
Cost/benefit doesn't work.
If I had a boat or job site where I would use it that would be
different. But not for a fridge.
For running a fridge you can get an inverter to hook to your car.
Some inverters will power most of your house systems from your car.
My cars have alternators with about 105 amps, which is pretty typical.
Just running your car every few hours to cycle the fridge will keep
your food healthy.
You can charge your rechargeables at the same time.
If you need gas, drive to the gas station.
No extra tanks, no generator maintenance and noise.
A good 2000 watt inverter is about $300. Xantrex is one.
For a fridge that's overkill. You can do it all cheaper to run a
fridge.
Small package, about 15 pounds, and you can keep it on a shelf.
Then to do it right you want a permanent fused wiring setup on the
car, where you can plug it in. About $50 bucks in parts.
Then a HD extension cord, which you might already have.
You can google all this and price it out.
That's what I did.
My decision was no generator and no inverter.
Almost went for a battery TV, but decided my radios were good enough.
Had flashlights, candles, and a couple battery radios.
Only thing I'd do different is if I knew that first outage was going
to be 71 hours, I'd have gone to a hotel/motel with my wife and just
come home a couple times a day to tend to the dogs until the power was
back. That would cost far less than a generator or inverter and be
more fun. Except all the traffic lights were out, so I'm not sure
about how much fun it would be.
Luckily the temps were nice when the power was out.
This is just me, so I'm not saying others see it different.
If I was in a hot place I'd want to power some A/C for sleeping.
Or drive to where there was power and sleep there.
A lot depends on how often you lose power.
It's worth giving it some thought before you buy stuff you won't use
much.

--Vic

On Jul 7, 12:40*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:29*am, wrote:





Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

If you are loosing power for long enough for a fridge to get warm then
I suggest you might as well get a generator that can supply you with
more power. *I comfortably run my whole 3000 sqft house with the
exception of major appliance such as the hvac, electric oven, and
electric dryer off of a cheap 4400 watt generator. *Since I only use
it for power outages I don't care that it won't last for thousands of
hours. *You can get a used one for a few hundred dollars on craigs
list, a new one for 5 or 600.

I backfeed it and there are code compliant ways to do that. *All you
need is a pair of breakers at the top of your main panel and a
mechanical lockout for the panel main. *http://www.interlockkit.com/
I open the breakers to the major appliances I don't want to run. *It
will run both my air handlers since I have gas heat.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I agree. That gives a flexible, safe, code compliant solution where
you
can choose what circuits you want to power at any given time.

wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? (By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): == is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. -- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator.

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
||
||
||
Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator


TIA for any advice,
Pat



I just went thru this exercise.
I found a new generator for dirt cheap at a garage sale.
I found another great deal on a DIY transfer switch that
hooks between the outputs of the breaker box and the house wiring.
I wish I'd been able to do the math before making the impulse purchase.

I discovered a couple of interesting things.
The NEC is subject to considerable interpretation.
There are at least two people you need to worry about.
1) the local electrical inspector.
2) the adjuster for your fire insurance carrier.
If you bypass #1, then #2 has grounds to deny your claim
when the place burns down. God help you if sparks
burn down the neighbor's house.

Life is a lot easier if you assume that the place will never
burn down. I've only been burned out twice in 63 years...what are
the odds????

The code pretty clearly states that anything ATTACHED to the structure
has to be permanently wired.
I asked my local inspector if I could put a plug on the furnace so I
could run the fans during a power outage. He said, "I don't see why not."
When pressed, he vacillated. I think he's the only one in the office,
so probably not an issue. In bigger offices, it may be a crap shoot
depending on who shows up for the inspection.
In your case, you could make a case for the built-in fridge not being
attached in the sense anticipated by the code, but the socket in the
wall is CLEARLY attached. Putting a plug on the other end of the wire
might be an issue.
You'll find many "projects" on the web that put regular wall switches
in circuits to facilitate generator connections. As I recall, you
must have switches actually rated for such service. Regular wall
switches ain't! I was gonna put a combo switch/socket
and back-feed just the furnace. I never found a combo SPDT switch
rated at the 20-amps required by that circuit. Would never have
passed inspection anyway.

When I had central air installed, I was amazed by the inspector.
He didn't look at the wiring at all. All he cared about was that
the breakers and switches all had the right stickers on 'em.
He failed the system and made the contractor replace a breaker
with one with the right sticker. So, it don't matter whether
the switches can actually do the job. What matters is that they
have a sticker that says they can do the job.

When I contemplated the transfer switch, I discovered that my house
has 30 feet of wire between the meter base and the first breaker.
This violates current code, big-time. There's some question about
what changes inside the breaker box might require bringing the whole
service entrance up to current code.
Even if everything turned out best case, the cost of the permits/inspection
was about the same as the cost of the generator.
Power doesn't go out much here.
And I have an unused freezer in the garage that could be pressed
into service in a food emergency.

If you have room, pick up a free fridge at a garage sale
and use it for emergencies on the generator...and for beer
when it's not an emergency.


Anybody wanna buy a new 5KW generator and an 8-circuit self-installable
transfer switch?

On Jul 7, 12:35*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT), Gz wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:29*am, wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

Using plugs gets around code. I'm thinking using original breaker to
outlet. Another outlet to generator. Plug from original line to
fridge. These outlets would be near outside the box or another
location. No switches involved.

Greg

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the input. *To be clear, you are saying it is OK for a line
that plugs into an outlet to run into hidden spaces and power a normal
outlet somewhere else in the house. *Right? *

Pat

That's right. It's basically your device. That might be a problem for
future owners.

Greg

On Jul 7, 2:30*pm, Gz wrote:
On Jul 7, 12:35*pm, wrote:





On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT), Gz wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:29*am, wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. *A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. *The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. *If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? *(By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. *I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? *During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. *Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): *== is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. *-- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator. *

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * * * *||
* * * * * * * *Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator * *

TIA for any advice,
Pat

Using plugs gets around code. I'm thinking using original breaker to
outlet. Another outlet to generator. Plug from original line to
fridge. These outlets would be near outside the box or another
location. No switches involved.

Greg

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the input. *To be clear, you are saying it is OK for a line
that plugs into an outlet to run into hidden spaces and power a normal
outlet somewhere else in the house. *Right? *

Pat

That's right. It's basically your device. That might be a problem for
future owners.

Greg

A fridge would run on a 1kw generator but would have start up
problems. I would not go with less than 2kw.

Greg

Andy comments:

Well presented, mike...

Personally, I would just put an extension cord on the generator
and unplug the fridge from the wall and plug it into the generator.
There should be enough capacity to run a fridge, a TV, a couple CFLs,
and maybe an electric toothbrush ---- necessities of life.

The idea of trying to make the entire house "normal" is just
too much trouble. Just pretend you are roughing it on a camping
trip that will end in a few days max......

It isn't the end of the world, and it's just too much trouble to
plan for it.....

Mike's opinion of the diversity of thought in building inspectors
is right on. And his caution regarding insurance coverage is
also good....... Just use an extension cord, of suitable rating, and
one won't have to worry about such things...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On Jul 7, 2:09*pm, mike wrote:
I just went thru this exercise.
I found a new generator for dirt cheap at a garage sale.
I found another great deal on a DIY transfer switch that
hooks between the outputs of the breaker box and the house wiring.
I wish I'd been able to do the math before making the impulse purchase.

I discovered a couple of interesting things.
The NEC is subject to considerable interpretation.
There are at least two people you need to worry about.
1) the local electrical inspector.
2) the adjuster for your fire insurance carrier.
If you bypass #1, then #2 has grounds to deny your claim
when the place burns down. *God help you if sparks
burn down the neighbor's house.

Life is a lot easier if you assume that the place will never
burn down. *I've only been burned out twice in 63 years...what are
the odds????

The code pretty clearly states that anything ATTACHED to the structure
has to be permanently wired.
I asked my local inspector if I could put a plug on the furnace so I
could run the fans during a power outage. *He said, "I don't see why not."
When pressed, he vacillated. *I think he's the only one in the office,
so probably not an issue. *In bigger offices, it may be a crap shoot
depending on who shows up for the inspection.
In your case, you could make a case for the built-in fridge not being
attached in the sense anticipated by the code, but the socket in the
wall is CLEARLY attached. *Putting a plug on the other end of the wire
might be an issue.
You'll find many "projects" on the web that put regular wall switches
in circuits to facilitate generator connections. *As I recall, you
must have switches actually rated for such service. *Regular wall
switches ain't! *I was gonna put a combo switch/socket
and back-feed just the furnace. *I never found a combo SPDT switch
rated at the 20-amps required by that circuit. *Would never have
passed inspection anyway.

When I had central air installed, I was amazed by the inspector.
He didn't look at the wiring at all. *All he cared about was that
the breakers and switches all had the right stickers on 'em.
He failed the system and made the contractor replace a breaker
with one with the right sticker. *So, it don't matter whether
the switches can actually do the job. *What matters is that they
have a sticker that says they can do the job.

The point to having the right "sticker" is that it means it's
the right one and can do the job, no?


When I contemplated the transfer switch, I discovered that my house
has 30 feet of wire between the meter base and the first breaker.
This violates current code, big-time. There's some question about
what changes inside the breaker box might require bringing the whole
service entrance up to current code.


Curious as to what part of the NEC this violates? While I think
most panels are located closer than 30 ft from the meter,
I would think there
would also be plenty of situations where it was not practical
and they were not. Cases like a seperate meter for an upstairs
apartment that has it's own panel located there for example.
I also don't see what exactly the big safety issue would be
having it be 30 ft as opposed to say 10 ft, as long as the wiring
was done correctly.


Even if everything turned out best case, the cost of the permits/inspection
was about the same as the cost of the generator.

Did you see the post in this thread about using one of the
add-on interlock systems?




Power doesn't go out much here.
And I have an unused freezer in the garage that could be pressed
into service in a food emergency.

If you have room, pick up a free fridge at a garage sale
and use it for emergencies on the generator...and for beer
when it's not an emergency.


That's a point I always come back to. Here in NJ the power
just doesn't go out that much or for long enough to make
it worthwhile to worry about. In about 35 years, I only had
one outage that was close to ruining frozen food. And
that time the power came back on just as I was returning
with $25 worth of dry ice.






Anybody wanna buy a new 5KW generator and an 8-circuit self-installable
transfer switch?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 11:09:10 -0700, mike wrote:

wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? (By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): == is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. -- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator.

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
||
||
||
Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator


TIA for any advice,
Pat



snip

The code pretty clearly states that anything ATTACHED to the structure
has to be permanently wired.
I asked my local inspector if I could put a plug on the furnace so I
could run the fans during a power outage. He said, "I don't see why not."
When pressed, he vacillated. I think he's the only one in the office,
so probably not an issue. In bigger offices, it may be a crap shoot
depending on who shows up for the inspection.
In your case, you could make a case for the built-in fridge not being
attached in the sense anticipated by the code, but the socket in the
wall is CLEARLY attached. Putting a plug on the other end of the wire
might be an issue.

That's what I am worried about with #2. #2 is also less desirable if
I add circuits later. After the frig, the gas water heater controls
and exhaust fan, and the gas furnace air handler would be my next
priorities. I would hate to have three circuits with plugs/sockets in
line.

You'll find many "projects" on the web that put regular wall switches
in circuits to facilitate generator connections. As I recall, you
must have switches actually rated for such service. Regular wall
switches ain't!

Thanks for that tip. I will look into it further.

snip

Pat

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT), Gz wrote:

On Jul 7, 2:30*pm, Gz wrote:


A fridge would run on a 1kw generator but would have start up
problems. I would not go with less than 2kw.

Greg

I am actually planning to use a 1.5 kw inverter connected to a Prius.
It can run my frig including start-up.

On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 11:29:08 -0400, wrote:

Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? (By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): == is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. -- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator.

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
||
||
||
Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator


TIA for any advice,
Pat

The plug-in circuit would at least be safe

On 7/7/2011 11:40 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jul 7, 11:29 am, wrote:
Hello,
I have a desire to backup my refrigerator during power outages. Let's
say I buy a generator with sufficient power to do so. A whole house
transfer switch is not appropriate because the small generator is
nowhere near big enough to handle the whole house. The cord on the
refrigerator is very hard to get to because the refrigerator is built
in. If I were to run the 12-2 line that currently runs from the
outlet to the breaker box into a new box containing a SPDT switch and
wire it to connect the hot wire from the outlet to either the original
breaker or a heavy duty extension cord plugged into the generator,
would that meet code? (By code, I mean NEC, not local variations. I
don't want to ask a local inspector if the answer is going to be "no
way".)

If the above is not acceptable, how about cutting the line running to
the refrigerator outlet and then installing an outlet near the breaker
box and a plug to connect them back together? During a power outage,
I would remove the plug from the outlet and plug it into the extension
cord coming from the generator. Would having a plug and outlet in the
line violate code?

Here's a crude attempt at an ascii drawing (please view with a fixed
width font): == is 12-2 w gnd normal house wiring. -- is the
refrigerator cord plugged into the outlet behind the refrigerator.

Today:
Breaker-Box======================outletPlug-----Refrigerator

Idea #1:
Breaker-Box====SPDT-Switch=======outletPlug-----Refrigerator
||
||
||
Generator

Idea #2:
Breaker-Box===new-outletnew-plug====outletPlug-----Refrigerator

TIA for any advice,
Pat

If you are loosing power for long enough for a fridge to get warm then
I suggest you might as well get a generator that can supply you with
more power. I comfortably run my whole 3000 sqft house with the
exception of major appliance such as the hvac, electric oven, and
electric dryer off of a cheap 4400 watt generator. Since I only use
it for power outages I don't care that it won't last for thousands of
hours. You can get a used one for a few hundred dollars on craigs
list, a new one for 5 or 600.

I backfeed it and there are code compliant ways to do that. All you
need is a pair of breakers at the top of your main panel and a
mechanical lockout for the panel main. http://www.interlockkit.com/
I open the breakers to the major appliances I don't want to run. It
will run both my air handlers since I have gas heat.

I wondered when someone would post a link to what I consider the
simplest, most effective and safe transfer switch on the market.

TDD

In article
,
jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jul 8, 9:12*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
They don't have 12 volt battery under the hood for starting?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message

...



I am actually planning to use a 1.5 kw inverter connected
to a Prius.
It can run my frig including start-up.

You are aware that the current generation prius battery is
200v, the
early generations were 280v? *Have you found an inverter for
that?

They have a 12v battery for accessories. I think it's been pretty
well established that a 12v car battery won't run much of anything for
any period. A fridge will be 4-500 watts when running. That's about
35 amps at 12v,

Off the hybrid battery it would be more like a couple amps. Problem
then is finding an inverter that works at the hybrid battery voltage.
And since volages on hybrids varies pretty widely it would be a good
idea to find one with a wide supply range so that it works with your
next hybrid. I'm thinking that the inverter costs for this
theoretical project is now in the thousands.

You mean those Priuses don't have a PTO? That's lame.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 08:41:43 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Have you actually tried it? I bought a marine battery and
inverter, many years ago. I thought it would run my furnace,
but it did not. I never did get it to work. That same
furnace ran fine off my generator.
Yes. It works with my refrigerator. The inverter is 1500 continuous
and 3000 watts peak.

Pat

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Jul 7, 8:12*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT), Gz wrote:
On Jul 7, 2:30 pm, Gz wrote:

A fridge would run on a 1kw generator but would have start up
problems. I would not go with less than 2kw.

Greg

I am actually planning to use a 1.5 kw inverter connected to a Prius.
It can run my frig including start-up.

You are aware that the current generation prius battery is 200v, the
early generations were 280v? Have you found an inverter for that?

I intend to use 12 volts, not the higher traction battery voltage. The
car will use the traction battery to keep the 12 volt battery charged
(via a built-in DC to DC converter) and occassionally use the gasoline
engine to keep the traction battery charged. There are many threads
in various news groups and forums covering this topic. This, of
course, isn't as efficient as a dedicated generator, but I will never
have to worry about stale gas or not being able to start a seldomly
used generator. I am told the car will supply 1000 to 1500 watts for
about a week on a single tank of gas.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 08:32:50 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

The extra socket and plug inline with the refrig sounds
good. It is simple, easy to understand, and has zero chance
of back feeding power into the rest of the house. Zero
chance of back feeding power into the power company lines,
and hurting a lineman.
However, it may not meet code as another responder pointed out.

I am looking into someone else's suggestion of an inexpensive
generator interlock product. (See www.interlockkit.com).

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 06:29:46 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Jul 8, 9:12*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
They don't have 12 volt battery under the hood for starting?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message

...



I am actually planning to use a 1.5 kw inverter connected
to a Prius.
It can run my frig including start-up.

You are aware that the current generation prius battery is
200v, the
early generations were 280v? *Have you found an inverter for
that?

They have a 12v battery for accessories. I think it's been pretty
well established that a 12v car battery won't run much of anything for
any period. A fridge will be 4-500 watts when running. That's about
35 amps at 12v,

Off the hybrid battery it would be more like a couple amps. Problem
then is finding an inverter that works at the hybrid battery voltage.
And since volages on hybrids varies pretty widely it would be a good
idea to find one with a wide supply range so that it works with your
next hybrid. I'm thinking that the inverter costs for this
theoretical project is now in the thousands.

I just responded in the other thread, but I plan to use 12 volts, not
the higher traction battery voltage. The car uses a DC to DC
converter to keep the 12 volt battery charged and starts its engine
periodically to keep the traction battery charged. The 2004 to 2009
model can supply 1000 watts continuously while the 2010 can supply
1500 watts. Other have used the traction battery for this, but I
don't want to modify the car.

To answer another question, the 12 volt battery is in the trunk making
it easy to directly attach to it and store the inverter there.

On Jul 8, 9:58*am, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 06:29:46 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc





wrote:
On Jul 8, 9:12*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
They don't have 12 volt battery under the hood for starting?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message

....

I am actually planning to use a 1.5 kw inverter connected
to a Prius.
It can run my frig including start-up.

You are aware that the current generation prius battery is
200v, the
early generations were 280v? *Have you found an inverter for
that?

They have a 12v battery for accessories. *I think it's been pretty
well established that a 12v car battery won't run much of anything for
any period. *A fridge will be 4-500 watts when running. *That's about
35 amps at 12v,

Off the hybrid battery it would be more like a couple amps. *Problem
then is finding an inverter that works at the hybrid battery voltage.
And since volages on hybrids varies pretty widely it would *be a good
idea to find one with a wide supply range so that it works with your
next hybrid. *I'm thinking that the inverter costs for this
theoretical project is now in the thousands.

I just responded in the other thread, but I plan to use 12 volts, not
the higher traction battery voltage. *The car uses a DC to DC
converter to keep the 12 volt battery charged and starts its engine
periodically to keep the traction battery charged. *The 2004 to 2009
model can supply 1000 watts continuously while the 2010 can supply
1500 watts. *Other have used the traction battery for this, but I
don't want to modify the car.

To answer another question, the 12 volt battery is in the trunk making
it easy to directly attach to it and store the inverter there.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then you are basically using your car as a generator. Anyone can do
that. It's a rather cumbersome solution but does have the virtue of
simplicity. The food in my fridge is not a real big worry for me. If
we loose power for a couple days sitting in the dark and sometimes
cold and cooking everything on the grill gets old fast. I have a 4kw
generator I paid $500 for. It runs my entire house. I backfeed. We
use the tv, the computers, the lights, the microwave, etc. In the
winter we have central heat.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 07:11:37 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

Then you are basically using your car as a generator.

That is true.

Anyone can do that.

That is also true, but the Prius has the advantage of only running the
gasoline engine as required. Most other vehicles will run the engine
continuously at idle. ... That's not a show stopper, but it wastes
energy. A properly sized generator is more efficient than either one,
but I already have the Prius and don't need power backup very often.

Thanks to you and all the others who provided input.

Pat

wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 08:32:50 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

The extra socket and plug inline with the refrig sounds
good. It is simple, easy to understand, and has zero chance
of back feeding power into the rest of the house. Zero
chance of back feeding power into the power company lines,
and hurting a lineman.
However, it may not meet code as another responder pointed out.

I am looking into someone else's suggestion of an inexpensive
generator interlock product. (See www.interlockkit.com).

There is no such thing, or at least one that I can find.

$150 for a six-by-six inch flat piece of metal is obscene.

Nevertheless, I'm considering buying one, using it as a template to make my
own, then selling the original on Ebay. I figure my net outlay, then, to be
about $10 which is a more reasonable price.

Heck, I might even make more than one, sell the copies for $50 each and
retire to a mobile home in Bakersfield!

If I decide to do that, members of this group will get first crack at the
product.

Kewl! Glad that it works for you.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..



wrote in message
...

Yes. It works with my refrigerator. The inverter is 1500
continuous
and 3000 watts peak.

Pat

I know what you mean about dark and cold. I've been there.
For me, an hour of generator to run the furnace about dark,
sure makes my trailer a lot more comfortable.

I don't run after dark if I can help it, being considerate
of my neighbors. (who might also steal my generator.....)

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jamesgangnc"
wrote in message
...

Then you are basically using your car as a generator.
Anyone can do
that. It's a rather cumbersome solution but does have the
virtue of
simplicity. The food in my fridge is not a real big worry
for me. If
we loose power for a couple days sitting in the dark and
sometimes
cold and cooking everything on the grill gets old fast. I
have a 4kw
generator I paid $500 for. It runs my entire house. I
backfeed. We
use the tv, the computers, the lights, the microwave, etc.
In the
winter we have central heat.

wrote:
On Jul 7, 2:09 pm, mike wrote:
I just went thru this exercise.
I found a new generator for dirt cheap at a garage sale.
I found another great deal on a DIY transfer switch that
hooks between the outputs of the breaker box and the house wiring.
I wish I'd been able to do the math before making the impulse purchase.

I discovered a couple of interesting things.
The NEC is subject to considerable interpretation.
There are at least two people you need to worry about.
1) the local electrical inspector.
2) the adjuster for your fire insurance carrier.
If you bypass #1, then #2 has grounds to deny your claim
when the place burns down. God help you if sparks
burn down the neighbor's house.

Life is a lot easier if you assume that the place will never
burn down. I've only been burned out twice in 63 years...what are
the odds????

The code pretty clearly states that anything ATTACHED to the structure
has to be permanently wired.
I asked my local inspector if I could put a plug on the furnace so I
could run the fans during a power outage. He said, "I don't see why not."
When pressed, he vacillated. I think he's the only one in the office,
so probably not an issue. In bigger offices, it may be a crap shoot
depending on who shows up for the inspection.
In your case, you could make a case for the built-in fridge not being
attached in the sense anticipated by the code, but the socket in the
wall is CLEARLY attached. Putting a plug on the other end of the wire
might be an issue.
You'll find many "projects" on the web that put regular wall switches
in circuits to facilitate generator connections. As I recall, you
must have switches actually rated for such service. Regular wall
switches ain't! I was gonna put a combo switch/socket
and back-feed just the furnace. I never found a combo SPDT switch
rated at the 20-amps required by that circuit. Would never have
passed inspection anyway.

When I had central air installed, I was amazed by the inspector.
He didn't look at the wiring at all. All he cared about was that
the breakers and switches all had the right stickers on 'em.
He failed the system and made the contractor replace a breaker
with one with the right sticker. So, it don't matter whether
the switches can actually do the job. What matters is that they
have a sticker that says they can do the job.

The point to having the right "sticker" is that it means it's
the right one and can do the job, no?
WEll...yes, and I don't argue with that. My concern was that he didn't
look at ANY of the wiring to see if it was the correct size or routed
and secured properly. Stickers on the breakers was the only thing
he seemed to care about.

When I contemplated the transfer switch, I discovered that my house
has 30 feet of wire between the meter base and the first breaker.
This violates current code, big-time. There's some question about
what changes inside the breaker box might require bringing the whole
service entrance up to current code.


Curious as to what part of the NEC this violates?

Good point. Maybe it's a local thing.
A friend just upgraded his service. They wouldn't let him put
the first breaker more than one stud-spacing away from the service
entrance. Seems they're worried about some contractor driving a
nail thru the cable. The first current limit is on the other side
of the transformer on the pole at 8KV or some such.
Something about arc-fault. If you get an arc started, it just
keeps burning itself back until it reaches a place where the separation
is great enough to extinguish the plasma. The house is well up in flames
long before that happens and there's nothing you can do but watch
it happen...assuming you weren't blinded in the initial flash.

While I think
most panels are located closer than 30 ft from the meter,
I would think there
would also be plenty of situations where it was not practical
and they were not.

The key is "were"...my house is 40 years old when they didn't
regulate that. So, yes, "most" houses are older than that and weren't
affected.

I think I could fix mine by installing a combo transfer-swtich
and meter base/breaker at the service entrance. Then the existing
wire to the main breaker box would be ok. Still WAY too much hassle
and not exactly a DIY thing== $$$$$

Cases like a seperate meter for an upstairs
apartment that has it's own panel located there for example.
I also don't see what exactly the big safety issue would be
having it be 30 ft as opposed to say 10 ft, as long as the wiring
was done correctly.


Even if everything turned out best case, the cost of the permits/inspection
was about the same as the cost of the generator.

Did you see the post in this thread about using one of the
add-on interlock systems?

As I understand it, the interlock system are not allowed by the code,
but are often "passed". Problem with my box is that the breakers
flip the opposite direction from the breakers anticipated by the
interlock systems. I'd have to have fingers that reach around
the switches and lock out on the outside edge. Other problem is
that there's no room in the box for the extra breakers for the
generator inputs.
It's just much easier/safer to leave it alone.





Power doesn't go out much here.
And I have an unused freezer in the garage that could be pressed
into service in a food emergency.

If you have room, pick up a free fridge at a garage sale
and use it for emergencies on the generator...and for beer
when it's not an emergency.


That's a point I always come back to. Here in NJ the power
just doesn't go out that much or for long enough to make
it worthwhile to worry about. In about 35 years, I only had
one outage that was close to ruining frozen food. And
that time the power came back on just as I was returning
with $25 worth of dry ice.





Anybody wanna buy a new 5KW generator and an 8-circuit self-installable
transfer switch?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 9, 5:07*am, mike wrote:
When I contemplated the transfer switch, I discovered that my house
has 30 feet of wire between the meter base and the first breaker.
This violates current code, big-time. *There's some question about
what changes inside the breaker box might require bringing the whole
service entrance up to current code.

Curious as to what part of the NEC this violates? *

Good point. *Maybe it's a local thing.
A friend just upgraded his service. *They wouldn't let him put
the first breaker more than one stud-spacing away from the service
entrance. *Seems they're worried about some contractor driving a
nail thru the cable. The first current limit is on the other side
of the transformer on the pole at 8KV or some such.

If that is the concern, metal conduit between the meter
and panel would solve it. Seems you have some very
strange inspectors. Where is this?



Something about arc-fault. *If you get an arc started, it just
keeps burning itself back until it reaches a place where the separation
is great enough to extinguish the plasma. *The house is well up in flames
long before that happens and there's nothing you can do but watch
it happen...assuming you weren't blinded in the initial flash.

As I understand it, the interlock system are not allowed by the code,
but are often "passed".

Based on what? Interlockit says they meet NEC. I've heard lots
of people using and recommending them here, including
electricians and haven't heard of any being failed.



*Problem with my box is that the breakers
flip the opposite direction from the breakers anticipated by the
interlock systems. *I'd have to have fingers that reach around
the switches and lock out on the outside edge.

What panel do you have?


* Other problem is
that there's no room in the box for the extra breakers for the
generator inputs.
It's just much easier/safer to leave it alone.

Could you replace a couple with half size breakers?

wrote:
On Jul 9, 5:07 am, mike wrote:
When I contemplated the transfer switch, I discovered that my house
has 30 feet of wire between the meter base and the first breaker.
This violates current code, big-time. There's some question about
what changes inside the breaker box might require bringing the whole
service entrance up to current code.
Curious as to what part of the NEC this violates?
Good point. Maybe it's a local thing.
A friend just upgraded his service. They wouldn't let him put
the first breaker more than one stud-spacing away from the service
entrance. Seems they're worried about some contractor driving a
nail thru the cable. The first current limit is on the other side
of the transformer on the pole at 8KV or some such.

If that is the concern, metal conduit between the meter
and panel would solve it. Seems you have some very
strange inspectors. Where is this?

Code doesn't have much room for "would solve it".
It's all about rules and compliance.
Trying to understand is futile.
Arguing with the inspector is futile.
Just comply.
Oregon
I've got no facts, just the word of someone I trust.



Something about arc-fault. If you get an arc started, it just
keeps burning itself back until it reaches a place where the separation
is great enough to extinguish the plasma. The house is well up in flames
long before that happens and there's nothing you can do but watch
it happen...assuming you weren't blinded in the initial flash.

As I understand it, the interlock system are not allowed by the code,
but are often "passed".

Based on what? Interlockit says they meet NEC. I've heard lots
of people using and recommending them here, including
electricians and haven't heard of any being failed.

So, we're in agreement?



Problem with my box is that the breakers
flip the opposite direction from the breakers anticipated by the
interlock systems. I'd have to have fingers that reach around
the switches and lock out on the outside edge.

What panel do you have?


Other problem is
that there's no room in the box for the extra breakers for the
generator inputs.
It's just much easier/safer to leave it alone.

Could you replace a couple with half size breakers?

At the risk of repeating myself

It's just much easier/safer to leave it alone.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:57:49 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

$150 for a six-by-six inch flat piece of metal is obscene.

Nevertheless, I'm considering buying one, using it as a template to make my
own, then selling the original on Ebay. I figure my net outlay, then, to be
about $10 which is a more reasonable price.

Heck, I might even make more than one, sell the copies for $50 each and
retire to a mobile home in Bakersfield!

If I decide to do that, members of this group will get first crack at the
product.

Let me know when you run a successful small business doing that. Did
you factor in the cost of insurance? having your product tested and
approved by Wyle Labs (probably 10's of thousands of dollars)?
....writing installation manuals? ...paying employees? ...paying
federal, state, and local taxes? ...and last, but not least, making
enough money to live on?

Maybe you can run a hobby business where your labor is free, but I
doubt you can run a real business at those prices. If the raw
materials cost $10 and they sell it for $150, trust me that they
aren't left with $140 in the bank at the end of the day.

On Jul 9, 9:18*am, mike wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 9, 5:07 am, mike wrote:
When I contemplated the transfer switch, I discovered that my house
has 30 feet of wire between the meter base and the first breaker.
This violates current code, big-time. *There's some question about
what changes inside the breaker box might require bringing the whole
service entrance up to current code.
Curious as to what part of the NEC this violates? *
Good point. *Maybe it's a local thing.
A friend just upgraded his service. *They wouldn't let him put
the first breaker more than one stud-spacing away from the service
entrance. *Seems they're worried about some contractor driving a
nail thru the cable. The first current limit is on the other side
of the transformer on the pole at 8KV or some such.

If that is the concern, metal conduit between the meter
and panel would solve it. *Seems you have some very
strange inspectors. *Where is this?

Code doesn't have much room for "would solve it".
It's all about rules and compliance.

A good start would be to be able to cite the rules.
From what I've seen so far, what you've claimed isn't backed
up by the NEC. The NEC has no rule that says the
panel breaker must be within one stud bay of the
service meter. You claimed that the local concern
might be with someone driving a nail into the wiring
between the meter and panel. In
which case, that would be solved by using metal
conduit and one would think that if that were the
local concern, the local inspector
would be OK with using metal conduit as a solution.

I can assure you that there is plenty of wiring going
on in Oreqon and everywhere else where the panel
breaker isn't one stud bay away from the meter.

It would seem to me the real problem is someone
needs to sit down with the inspector, the NEC and
find out exactly what the issues are, rather than
speculating. You claimed that having 30 ft
of distance between the meter and the panel
breaker violates current code "big time". IF
it does, the inspector should be able to point
to the NEC or local rule that specifically says
that. Which is only reasonable, because if
30 ft is no good, then what is? 20? 10?
5? You have a right to know.


Trying to understand is futile.

If that were the case, it would be very hard to wire
up anything, would it not? Most inspectors
I've talked to were willing to explain exactly what
the issue is, the reqts, etc. and possible ways
to solve their concerns. Did you actually
talk to the local inspector about this?


Arguing with the inspector is futile.
Just comply.

Before you can comply, you need to understand
what the actual rules are.




Oregon
I've got no facts, just the word of someone I trust.



And that may be the whole problem.



Something about arc-fault. *If you get an arc started, it just
keeps burning itself back until it reaches a place where the separation
is great enough to extinguish the plasma. *The house is well up in flames
long before that happens and there's nothing you can do but watch
it happen...assuming you weren't blinded in the initial flash.

As I understand it, the interlock system are not allowed by the code,
but are often "passed".

Based on what? *Interlockit says they meet NEC. *I've heard lots
of people using and recommending them here, including
electricians and haven't heard of any being failed.

So, we're in agreement?



No, we're not. You said the Interlockit system does not
meet code, but is often passed. I said:

1 - Interlockit specifically says their product meets the NEC

2 - Plenty of people here have reported using them,
including electricians, at least some of them have been
inspected, and I've never heard of a single one being turned
down by an inspector.

3 -I'd like to see what specifically in the NEC leads
you to believe the Interlockkit product is in violation?



*Problem with my box is that the breakers
flip the opposite direction from the breakers anticipated by the
interlock systems. *I'd have to have fingers that reach around
the switches and lock out on the outside edge.

What panel do you have?

* Other problem is
that there's no room in the box for the extra breakers for the
generator inputs.
It's just much easier/safer to leave it alone.

Could you replace a couple with half size breakers?

At the risk of repeating myself

* It's just much easier/safer to leave it alone.



One, I don't see any safety issue. Two, it
sounds more like you just took some word of
mouth from a friend and called it quits as opposed
to looking at NEC and/or consulting with the local inspector.

On Jul 9, 9:47*am, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:57:49 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

$150 for a six-by-six inch flat piece of metal is obscene.

Nevertheless, I'm considering buying one, using it as a template to make my
own, then selling the original on Ebay. I figure my net outlay, then, to be
about $10 which is a more reasonable price.

Heck, I might even make more than one, sell the copies for $50 each and
retire to a mobile home in Bakersfield!

If I decide to do that, members of this group will get first crack at the
product.

Let me know when you run a successful small business doing that. *Did
you factor in the cost of insurance? *having your product tested and
approved by Wyle Labs (probably 10's of thousands of dollars)?
...writing installation manuals? *...paying employees? * ...paying
federal, state, and local taxes? *...and last, but not least, making
enough money to live on?

Maybe you can run a hobby business where your labor is free, but I
doubt you can run a real business at those prices. *If the raw
materials cost $10 and they sell it for $150, trust me that they
aren't left with $140 in the bank at the end of the day.

Not to mention, based on his long history of posts, HeyBub
is the last guy I'd expect to be bitching about a company
being free to sell their product at whatever price the market
will bear and reaping the rewards of their efforts.
And that's exactly what they do. Products aren't
priced based on the cost of materials. They are priced based
on what will maximize revenue for the company.

To price figure that out, they would be looking at alternate
solutions. A full transfer switch and installation is going to
cost many times that $110. Which makes it looks like a
good value proposition to me. If he wants to bitch about
something, there are certainly far better targets. An
example would be repair part prices for many appliances.
$25 for a black plastic knob that goes on the
end of a mechanical thermostat in a cooler, for example.

To answer another question, the 12 volt battery is in the trunk making
it easy to directly attach to it and store the inverter there.

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html

On 7/11/2011 9:20 PM, Congoleum Breckenridge wrote:



To answer another question, the 12 volt battery is in the trunk making
it easy to directly attach to it and store the inverter there.

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/priups.html


another:
http://www.priups.com/misc/intro.htm

On 7/9/2011 4:07 AM, mike wrote:
wrote:
On Jul 7, 2:09 pm, mike wrote:

When I contemplated the transfer switch, I discovered that my house
has 30 feet of wire between the meter base and the first breaker.
This violates current code, big-time. There's some question about
what changes inside the breaker box might require bringing the whole
service entrance up to current code.


Curious as to what part of the NEC this violates?

Good point. Maybe it's a local thing.
A friend just upgraded his service. They wouldn't let him put
the first breaker more than one stud-spacing away from the service
entrance. Seems they're worried about some contractor driving a
nail thru the cable. The first current limit is on the other side
of the transformer on the pole at 8KV or some such.
Something about arc-fault. If you get an arc started, it just
keeps burning itself back until it reaches a place where the separation
is great enough to extinguish the plasma. The house is well up in flames
long before that happens and there's nothing you can do but watch
it happen...assuming you weren't blinded in the initial flash.

The restriction is not on length of service wires from meter to
disconnect but length of service wires inside the building.

The code section is:
"the service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily
accessible location either outside ... or inside nearest the point of
entrance of the service conductors." (230.70 A-1)

With minimally protected service conductors you want problems kept on
the outside the house. If the disconnect is distant from the meter the
service is run most the way on the outside the building then inside and
immediately to the disconnect.

Or the disconnect can be adjacent to the meter.

Or the service wires can be under a concrete floor and they are
considered outside the building.


Did you see the post in this thread about using one of the
add-on interlock systems?

As I understand it, the interlock system are not allowed by the code,
but are often "passed". Problem with my box is that the breakers
flip the opposite direction from the breakers anticipated by the
interlock systems. I'd have to have fingers that reach around
the switches and lock out on the outside edge. Other problem is
that there's no room in the box for the extra breakers for the
generator inputs.
It's just much easier/safer to leave it alone.

The interlock system linked to by james should be code compliant. So are
the listed transfer switch units, some of which only handle a few circuits.

Another method that has appeared here before is to install a double pole
double throw switch (not single pole) that switches to an "inlet", which
is the reverse of an outlet. Switch ratings of 15, 20, and 30 amps are
not hard to find. An extension cord from the generator plugs into the
inlet. The switch, technically, would have to be rated to switch between
power sources.

--
bud--

On Jul 8, 8:41*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Have you actually tried it? I bought a marine battery and
inverter, many years ago. I thought it would run my furnace,
but it did not. I never did get it to work. That same
furnace ran fine off my generator.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

wrote in message

...

I am actually planning to use a 1.5 kw inverter connected to
a Prius.
It can run my frig including start-up.

Any speculations on why the battery/inverter setup failed to run
the furnace?
I have a relatively new furnace, and I don't want its control board
getting clobbered by a few spikes in the genny output.

Michael B wrote in news:66f807d6-42be-4442-ab62-
:

On Jul 8, 8:41*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Have you actually tried it? I bought a marine battery and
inverter, many years ago. I thought it would run my furnace,
but it did not. I never did get it to work. That same
furnace ran fine off my generator.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

wrote in message

...

I am actually planning to use a 1.5 kw inverter connected to
a Prius.
It can run my frig including start-up.

Any speculations on why the battery/inverter setup failed to run
the furnace?
I have a relatively new furnace, and I don't want its control board
getting clobbered by a few spikes in the genny output.

I'd say it depends on the requirements/sensitivity of the AC device.
Inverters can put out a modified sine wave, sawtooth wave, square wave or
virtually the same wave as the power company. Then there's the quality of
voltage amplitude, frequency and ability to maintain phase. It's always
about the money...how much you pay for the inverter.

Many things will run on crap waves just fine, some run but less
efficient, some run and screw up the device to some extent.

Couple of links to inverter output waveforms.

http://www.lenrek.net/experiments/inverter
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext...cOutput-c.html