"Mark" wrote in message news:ZsPxm.18775
stuff snipped
Our local tv station did a story a few years ago about small children not
waking to the loud hi-pitched alarms. They even did a test and showed
several small kids sleeping right thru an alarm right in their rooms.
They
showed one that actually had a recorded voice of the child's mom yelling
for
them to get up and get out of the house and kids seemed to hear and
respond
to that. Here's a story on 'talking smoke detectors':

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/ara_talkingsmokealar

You can get more with a Google on 'talking smoke detectors'.

Yes, thanks. It's this search that ironically led me to the detector I was
seeking. A low pitched alarm that does both CO and smoke for under $40 and
that runs on batteries.

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction!

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
stuff snipped
I have slept through smoke alarm when it awoke everyone else in the
house.

I have too, yet, oddly enough I am the one that always wakes up to the once
a minute chirp of a low battery signal. I think a lot depends on what stage
sleep you're in when the alarm sounds. I say that because I can remember my
dreams actually relating to an alarm sound that woke me up, as if the
sub-conscience is hearing the alarm while you're dreaming and then "edits"
your dream to include a loud siren.

That alarm used to sound the first time or two that the furnace
came on in the fall - accumulated dust burning? No smoke detectable to
us.

Yeah, all sorts of crap lands on the A-coil when it's wet and by the time
you start running really hot air over it from the furnace on the first cold
day it starts a stinkin'. I live across the street from a firehouse and the
first really cold night will have maybe 10 alarms running for smoke smell
calls.

When my kids were young teens, they used to have their radio on very
softly at night, tuned to pop music station. There was a very popular
song at the time that had a background sound that sounded like "maaaaa";
I normally could barely tell the radio was on in their room, but I would
wake at night when that song played. My subconcious thought my children
were calling me )

Pretty funny. My mother had a similar, though less positive reaction to a
song by the Doors called "The End" where Morrison sings: "Father, I want to
kill you, Mother, I want to . . ." which on my recording, at least, was
unintelligible, but was really:

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=231

she asked me "Bobby, what is he saying?" "I dunno Ma, he's just howling."
(-:

--
Bobby G.

"mleuck" wrote in message news:fef0cce7-8387-43d4-a00b-

stuff snipped

I wouldn't call $159 per unit "gouging" for such a specialized product

It just depends on your perspective I guess. What are the technical and
manufacturing differences between the mass-produced $20 smoke detector and
one of these "specialized" low-frequency units?

I don't want to deny anyone a living, but the problem seems to be that the
mass-manufacturers are making the wrong product. It doesn't work for
perhaps as many as 1 in 5 Americans.

As for costing out the differences, the worst price difference I can see is
that it might take some AA batteries instead of 9V one to create as loud a
sound at the lower frequency. I just don't see where it should cost over
10X the cost of a Wal-mart or Target special. At $159 each, it's not likely
that a lot of elderly people will be able to properly cover their house with
them.

I believe I read somewhere that 9V batteries are very high on the list of
items shop-lifted by the elderly. That's no surprise to me when I read
about the living conditions of some of the older people in America. I've
been shocked at how much they're charging for 9V's ($4!!!!) lately so maybe
the switch to AA based alarms, if that's what it takes to make a loud enough
noise with them, is a blessing, too. AA's seem to be available at more
reasonable prices than 9V cells in general.

Considering that those needing such alarms are most likely to be the same
elderly adults asked to bail out Wall St.'s Richie Richkids with their
million dollar bonuses, I think what you get for $159 v. $20 is a valid
question. If 70 million people can't hear these units well enough to be
awakened by them, there was a BIG basic mistake in the selection and
approval of the frequencies used. That's what Mr. Morgan's URL attested to.
Fire experts are beginning to look at the statistics and have realized the
high frequencies originally chosen as attention-getters doesn't work as well
at rousing people as lower tones, especially when natural old-age hearing
attrition becomes a factor.

In fact, because some of the sites I looked at said that bed shakers are the
best at awakening people, I am thinking about taking the very loud bass unit
from a pair of Creative PC speakers I have lying around and hooking it into
my home alarm system to "shake the bed" with something like a recording from
a disaster movie. The literature I've been reading is that every second
counts in escaping a fire and that a combination tone and a bedshaker alarm
would give us the best possible warning and be very affordable as well since
I already have an alarm panel in the house.

As for being "specialized" I think the whole point here is that
low-frequency tone alarms shouldn't be considered something special. From
what Mr. Morgan's referral said, they won't be a high dollar, specialized
product with a few years as the new rules come into play.

There's very little design or cost difference between an alarm with a low
frequency sounder than one with a high frequency. High frequency was the
wrong choice, now that's getting fixed. I guess someone in the CPSC was
standing next to someone elderly and noticed what I did. Finally. Everbody
msistakes mkes. (-:

Oops, was that a rant? I guess so. Sorry. It just amazes me that this
problem has existed for so long without anyone doing a damn thing about it.
Who needs death panels when we have Underwriter's Laboratory approving smoke
alarms that elderly and hard of hearing people can't hear? Maybe they need
to change their name to "Undertaker's Labs."

Thanks for your input!

--
Bobby G.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
stuff snipped

If someone is hard of hearing and has a house with hardwired 120VAC
smokes, I would highly recommend looking into replacing the smokes with
the ones with ADA strobes. Off the top of my head I think the current
Gentex model is 7309, but there's different versions with and without
relay contacts and for wall and ceiling mount. Not cheap, but if you've
already demonstrated that the existing detectors aren't notifying the
occupant...

Nate, thanks for the info. His is an older house with battery smokes. I
got him a very bright phone flasher last year so that the phone would wake
him in emergencies, but he just doesn't wake up to flashing lights. I've
come to find out that the success rate of flashing lights is about 25%.
Since he's got high frequency hearing loss, the best option seems to be the
low frequency alarm I just bought. Whether it wakes him from sleep, we've
yet to discover but at least he can actually hear this unit in the test
mode. The ones with the high pitched sonalerts are completely inaudible to
him although they are so loud they hurt my ears.

--
Bobby G.

"mm" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:27:35 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was at an elderly friend's house the other day when the smoke alarm
went
off. It was quite loud and I reacted instantly to the noise. My friend,
a
former Army marksman in his 70's, who's suffering from profound high
frequency hearing loss, heard nothing!!!

Then I started looking around for alarms that used lower frequency
sounders
but the only thing I could find were specially converted smoke detectors
that cost $300!!!!

I'm wondering why COTS alarms operate at such a high sound frequency,

They do? I have an AC smoke alarm and I've had a couple battery ones,
and they seem to be mid-range. (I've played the piano for 50 years,
but still have little idea what note they are, or even what octave,
but they still seem midrange. I'll guess, middle C. The nearby A is
440, so C must be 500 to 550 cps.)

I believe that the frequencies used by current smokes are in the 3000Hz
range. However, there seems to be quite a difference between battery and
line-powered smokes and the tones they create.

It sounds like a metallic kazoo, or a trombone at its mid-pitch.

especially when it's well known that older adults lose their high
frequency
hearing first. I have been thinking of just unsoldering the Sonalert
sounders in low priced alarms and replacing them with lower frequency

Have they switched to little, high frequency sonalerts. They used to
use ones as big as demitasse coffe cup. Bigger than that. More like a
tea cup at a Chinese restaurant. They don't use that anymore? The
bigger they are, the lower the pitch, right?

The ones I have seen are a little larger than a quarter in diameter. And
yes, judging from how much bigger my woofer is than my tweeter, I'd say
larger usually means lower. (-:

I would say to look for old ones, but one of the two styles of smoke
detector doesn't work well after it is old, they say. Doesn't the
other kind still work well when it is old? Which is which?

Fortunately, a day's worth of on-line and in-store version got me what I
needed. I probably would not feel comfortable handing him a used smoke.
(-:

If you look at mouser.com I believe they sell a wide range of
sonalerts and may give frequencies and probalby give specs. Best to
use a high-speed connection becauase last I looked two years ago,
every search dl's a pdf rep of the page in the catalog. So it takes a
few seconds even with lo-speed dsl. But if they sell something, it
seems they have every model of it, by more than one maker.

I thought of that, but I also didn't want to get into any wrongful death
suit or run afoul of some obscure federal regulation that makes it illegal
to modify an alarm. There's no telling whether the extra current draw might
somehow affect the unit's detection capabilities.

Well, they don't seem to use pdf anymore, and it loads much quicker
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine....yword=sonalert but there
don't seem to be pictures on this page, plus you will have to click on
data sheet for specs.

Does anyone know of a *reasonably* priced smoke detector whose sounder is
audible to people with high frequency hearing loss? I'd like to buy a
couple of such detectors for him, but the price on the only unit I've
found
would bring the bill to over $1200 for four detectors, and that's just
unreasonable. I know what goes into making a smoke detector and 10x the
cost of the parts still wouldn't bring the price that high.

P&M, because you're being nice to an old person.

Thanks. I figure it's quid pro quo, and maybe I'll live to be an old person
that someone can be nice to. Once I found out that he was falling asleep in
the living room lounger with a lit pipe and couldn't hear it when the alarm
went off, I knew it was time to act. Sort of a case of "ask not for whom
the [smoke detector] tolls . . ."

BTW, God's already rewarded me. During the search for smoke detectors I
found a hardly used box set of the original Outer Limits from the 60's for
dirt cheap. Not only was my mission accomplished, I got a bonus.

--
Bobby G.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:38:10 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:



So, problem solved!!! I only bought the one, for a little over $40 with
tax, but it also includes a CO monitor so mentally, it fits what *I* think a
good smoke detector should cost: $20 each. I don't give it high marks for
intelligibility, though. When it goes off, it's the tone, a little silence,
and then a man mumbling in an urgent tone. "Warning . . . Warning . . . mo
. . ected . . . in . . . ing . . . room." The alarm tells you which room
the alert is coming from and what the danger is (smoke or CO), which I think
is mostly a gimmick but may prove useful.

You should have five fires and five CO emergencies, to evaluate this
aspect of the detector. A hundred would be better, but I'll settle for
10. I'm glad you found what you wanted and that you posted it.

. It's got a feature that
allows silencing or testing via any household IR remote and the unit has
triggered twice accidentally as a result of a reflected IR beam.

LOL

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

stuff snipped

there's two kinds of smokes, ionization and photoelectric. Ionization
are the ones that use a small pellet of americium and once it loses its
radioactivity it's toast. Photoelectric uses a LED and a photocell to
measure obscuration. But that said most mfgrs. of smoke detectors will
recommend replacement after 10 years or even less no matter what
technology it uses. That's not saying that it won't work, but they're
not willing to go on record saying that they will.

I thought about used units, but then decided against it. Older units, even
of the photoelectric design, change with age. Anything that depends on
clear plastic staying crystal clear probably has serious longevity
constraints, especially if exposed to smoke, grease and other contaminants.

--
Bobby G.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:12:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:



I once helped a fellow firefighter rig up a home fire sprinkler system
for his father in law who the entire family was sure would immolate
himself by smoking a pipe in his favorite chair just prior to bed.
Since we did all of the work ourselves the whole sprinkler system cost
less then the final piece. That piece was a smoke detector that had a
plunger to break the glass bulb that held the sprinkler over that
chair closed. Twenty years on and his father in law had died of heart
failure in his sleep so who did that detector save? It saved the
alcoholic mother of the single mom with two children who had bought
the small bungalow were his step father had lived. It also saved the
home owner and her two children of course so I'd say that the work was
worth our time. Grandma was transported to the hospital for treatment
of smoke inhalation, a small burn to her hand, and a mild case of
hypothermia from the forty gallons a minute of cold water that had
flowed over her.

Pretty amazing.

--
Tom Horne

"Hell Toupee" wrote in message

There are two smoke alarms out there that allow the user to record an
alert that sounds when the alarm goes off. Usually, it's a voice
alert, to awaken children to the sound of their parent's voice. But
there'd be nothing stopping you from recording a lower-frequency tone
to use as an alarm sound. Look on the internet for a sound your friend
can hear, and that sounds alarming enough to awaken him, and record
that.

SignalONE Voice Safety Alarm

http://www.safemart.com/Fire-Safety/...arm-012504.htm

KidSmart Vocal Smoke Detector

http://www.amazon.com/Kidsmart-10012.../dp/B0018SANVY

Thanks. If I hadn't been able to find the FirstAlert unit, I might have
looked into one of those.

--
Bobby G.

"Lee B" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

I've followed some of this thread, and got curious and went googling for
"smoke alarm" and "low frequency" together. I found this site -
http://darrowproducts.com/index.html . I think their alarm was mentioned
elsewhere in the thread, but two points on their own site that might
help: one of the models is $159 with a $39 instant rebate and free
shipping. (Of course, they may have changed that and not updated the
page, who knows). That's the lowest price models; others are more.

The site also had another interesting angle - their section on veterans
says "Attention, U.S. Veterans, you may qualify to receive a Loudenlow™
Hearing Impaired smoke alarm for free via your local Veterans Affairs
office".

Good luck. And good for you for watching out for your friend!

Thanks. I looked into that, along with calling both my firehouse and his
(they just closed it a month ago, so they were not of much help!) to see
what programs were available. The DoD reimbursement had to be done their
way, which meant maybe waiting 6 weeks or more for the unit because they
have to approve it first. I didn't feel comfortable waiting, nor do I like
to spend a lot more for stuff just because it's got a "medical" label on it.
Thank god the FirstAlert unit does the trick and for even less than the
reimbursed price of one of the speciality units. That means I can get more
of them to spread around the house.

--
Bobby G.

"Tom Horne" wrote in message news:57270a38-831f-4d3b-
stuff snipped

I once helped a fellow firefighter rig up a home fire sprinkler system
for his father in law who the entire family was sure would immolate
himself by smoking a pipe in his favorite chair just prior to bed.
Since we did all of the work ourselves the whole sprinkler system cost
less then the final piece.

Same sort of situation just not family so I can't quite force myself or a
work crew on him for a problem that he doesn't see as serious although those
around him do.

One of the tragedies of fire insurance is that if you took all the premiums
paid, the money would pay for a lot of sprinkler systems. It's so typical,
though, to spend a lot to replace but not a lot to prevent. We could have
saved ourselves a lot of trauma as a nation had we just locked jetliner
cabins like El Al has been doing for 20 plus years.

If I were building a new home, I would definitely install fire control
sprinklers in it.

--
Bobby G.

"zzznot" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
http://www.firstalert.com/carbon_mon...tem.php?pid=24

Excellent!

Lowes' web site lists it, I'll see if the local store has it.

Can this be installed battery-only, or does it need 120v install?
I cannot tell from any online description I can find!

It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that it's so hard to find some simple
information. I downloaded the PDF but couldn't find any specs for the sound
frequency.

It's a battery only device with a door that swings out so that battery
replacement doesn't required dismounting the unit from the ceiling.
Practice using the door before mounting it because it takes a unique sort of
pulling motion and I had to dismount it to make sure I wasn't going to break
it off. I thought it pulled out like a drawer but it swings out like an
orange wedge on a single pivot.

--
Bobby G.

In article , Robert Green wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:27:35 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was at an elderly friend's house the other day when the smoke alarm
went
off. It was quite loud and I reacted instantly to the noise. My friend,
a
former Army marksman in his 70's, who's suffering from profound high
frequency hearing loss, heard nothing!!!

Then I started looking around for alarms that used lower frequency
sounders
but the only thing I could find were specially converted smoke detectors
that cost $300!!!!

I'm wondering why COTS alarms operate at such a high sound frequency,

They do? I have an AC smoke alarm and I've had a couple battery ones,
and they seem to be mid-range. (I've played the piano for 50 years,
but still have little idea what note they are, or even what octave,
but they still seem midrange. I'll guess, middle C. The nearby A is
440, so C must be 500 to 550 cps.)

I believe that the frequencies used by current smokes are in the 3000Hz
range. However, there seems to be quite a difference between battery and
line-powered smokes and the tones they create.

It sounds like a metallic kazoo, or a trombone at its mid-pitch.

especially when it's well known that older adults lose their high
frequency
hearing first. I have been thinking of just unsoldering the Sonalert
sounders in low priced alarms and replacing them with lower frequency

SNIP from here to edit for space and concentrate on line-vs-battery point

I have experience with line-powered smoke detectors and other devices
that I actually designed and built having similar audible tone.

My experience suggests that line powered smoke detectors with a buzzy
tone have most of their acoustic spectrum around/above 2500 Hz and
probably nearly enough all of it above 2000 Hz.

My experience suggests that the frequency difference between the loud
harmonic components makes a low fundamental frequency apparent despite
lack of significant presence of the fundamental frequency and the first
few, quite a few even, harmonics.

- Don Klipstein )

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that it's so hard to find some simple
information. I downloaded the PDF but couldn't find any specs for the
sound frequency.

If it does voice, I'm going to assume it handles at least
the classic telephonic range of about 300hz to 3000hz, plus
or minus a couple of db.

It's a battery only device with a door that swings out so that battery
replacement doesn't required dismounting the unit from the ceiling.

Good. Wall mount also OK, I assume. Thanks.


Practice using the door before mounting it because it takes a unique sort
of pulling motion and I had to dismount it to make sure I wasn't going to
break it off. I thought it pulled out like a drawer but it swings out
like an orange wedge on a single pivot.

The Kidde model I bought in part because it has a front-mounted
door for the battery. Guess what - you have to take it off and
fiddle a "lock" on the back, before you can use the front door!

Who designs these things, anyway??!??

Josh

On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 23:32:52 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:



If you look at mouser.com I believe they sell a wide range of
sonalerts and may give frequencies and probalby give specs. Best to
use a high-speed connection becauase last I looked two years ago,
every search dl's a pdf rep of the page in the catalog. So it takes a
few seconds even with lo-speed dsl. But if they sell something, it
seems they have every model of it, by more than one maker.

I thought of that, but I also didn't want to get into any wrongful death
suit or run afoul of some obscure federal regulation that makes it illegal
to modify an alarm. There's no telling whether the extra current draw might
somehow affect the unit's detection capabilities.

You have a point there.

My AC smoke alarm specifically says not to make changes to it, but I
connected a relay coil across the buzzer, and I used the contacts as
part of my burglar/fire alarm system, first to set off the alarm,
steady instead of wailing, and soon it will notify a monitoring
service.

If I have messed up the alarm and I die in a fire, I have in my will
that my estate should sue me.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:30:44 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Ensign has been trying to bribe the husband of the woman
he's having an affair with

That one's really low. If he doesn't shape up, he'll never make
captain.

In article , zzznot wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that it's so hard to find some simple
information. I downloaded the PDF but couldn't find any specs for the
sound frequency.

If it does voice, I'm going to assume it handles at least
the classic telephonic range of about 300hz to 3000hz, plus
or minus a couple of db.

High chance minimal upper portion of first formant range, as in above
400 or 600 Hz or so, and even then likely minus more than a couple dB at
frequencies that low unless it uses an actual dynamic loudspeaker
preferably at least 1.5 inches in diameter.

I have experience with an 800 Hz highpass 4th order Chebyshev filter
leaving voices fully recognizeable, and only moderately to
moderately-severely "tinny". Frequencies much below 700 Hz were
essentially absent here, roughly 10 dB down at 700 Hz and probably at
least 32 dB down at 400 Hz.

Most loudspeakers do not achieve flatness of frequency response to +/- 2
dB over their rated frequency ranges. One rated for +/- 3 dB has
traditionally been considered a "high fidelity" one, even if achieving
this only in a specific setup or the variable frequency signal being
moderately narrowband filtered noise rather than sine wave, and I have
seen very little improvement in loudspeaker fidelity in the past 25 years.

- Don Klipstein )

"zzznot" wrote in message
...
stuff snipped

Practice using the door before mounting it because it takes a unique
sort
of pulling motion and I had to dismount it to make sure I wasn't going
to
break it off. I thought it pulled out like a drawer but it swings out
like an orange wedge on a single pivot.

The Kidde model I bought in part because it has a front-mounted
door for the battery. Guess what - you have to take it off and
fiddle a "lock" on the back, before you can use the front door!

Who designs these things, anyway??!??

Josh

Satan. I have a Uniden cordless phone with a beltclip and every time you
bump into something, it tries to call the last number dialed and often
succeeds. There's no way to lock out the keypad when carrying it around.

I have a Panasonic VCR remote that requires you to push two buttons to
record. Unfortunately, they are the two highest buttons on the remote and
if you put it down button-side down the weight of the unit presses on the
two record buttons at the same time and the unit begins to record over
whatever tape was in the unit. It even happens if you drop the remote the
wrong way.

I have a new Nikon SLR that I have yet to figure out how to turn the flash
off other than holding the pop up flash-head manually which is harder than
you might think. It's certainly not intuitive.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
Who designs these things, anyway??!??

Satan.

No argument here.

When people design "phones" that work by putting
the video screen to your ear, I just don't know.

Josh

Van Chocstraw wrote:

I guess they need a smoke detector that shakes the bed.

Used to have 'em in some motels. Only cost a quarter.

Hell Toupee wrote:
Robert Green wrote:

Does anyone know of a *reasonably* priced smoke detector whose sounder is
audible to people with high frequency hearing loss? I'd like to buy a
couple of such detectors for him, but the price on the only unit I've found
would bring the bill to over $1200 for four detectors, and that's just
unreasonable. I know what goes into making a smoke detector and 10x the
cost of the parts still wouldn't bring the price that high.

The idea that smokes use sounders that can't be heard by a lot of elderly
people seems pretty unreasonable to me as well.

Surely someone out there makes a smoke detector or combo smoke/CO detector
(even better) that makes a sound people with typical hearing loss could hear
a little better.


There are two smoke alarms out there that allow the user to record an
alert that sounds when the alarm goes off. Usually, it's a voice
alert, to awaken children to the sound of their parent's voice. But
there'd be nothing stopping you from recording a lower-frequency tone
to use as an alarm sound. Look on the internet for a sound your friend
can hear, and that sounds alarming enough to awaken him, and record
that.

SignalONE Voice Safety Alarm
http://www.safemart.com/Fire-Safety/...arm-012504.htm

KidSmart Vocal Smoke Detector
http://www.amazon.com/Kidsmart-10012.../dp/B0018SANVY

Heck, I think this would work better:

http://tinyurl.com/y9z7643

TDD

A followup to this thread about low frequency sounders in smoke alarms and
this unit:

http://www.firstalert.com/carbon_mon...tem.php?pid=24

One problem I've noticed with the unit I've put in the basement is that it
occasionally interprets the turning on of the fluorescent lights as an IR
pulse that you would send to self-test the unit remotely. Not a big
problem, and one rectified by placing it so that the worklights don't shine
on it directly, but I'd thought I'd mention it. On the plus side, the unit
is loud enough that we can hear it at night in the bedroom upstairs from the
floor below.

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
I was at an elderly friend's house the other day when the smoke alarm went
off. It was quite loud and I reacted instantly to the noise. My friend, a
former Army marksman in his 70's, who's suffering from profound high
frequency hearing loss, heard nothing!!!

Then I started looking around for alarms that used lower frequency sounders
but the only thing I could find were specially converted smoke detectors
that cost $300!!!!

I'm wondering why COTS alarms operate at such a high sound frequency,
especially when it's well known that older adults lose their high frequency
hearing first. I have been thinking of just unsoldering the Sonalert
sounders in low priced alarms and replacing them with lower frequency
sounders, but that could compromise the detector's ability to sense smoke if
the replacement sounder has sufficiently different electrical
characteristics.

Does anyone know of a *reasonably* priced smoke detector whose sounder is
audible to people with high frequency hearing loss? I'd like to buy a
couple of such detectors for him, but the price on the only unit I've found
would bring the bill to over $1200 for four detectors, and that's just
unreasonable. I know what goes into making a smoke detector and 10x the
cost of the parts still wouldn't bring the price that high.

The idea that smokes use sounders that can't be heard by a lot of elderly
people seems pretty unreasonable to me as well.

Surely someone out there makes a smoke detector or combo smoke/CO detector
(even better) that makes a sound people with typical hearing loss could hear
a little better.

BTW, we can skip flashing light smoke detectors. BT, DT, GTS! He's got a
phone ringer/flasher that he never hears or sees. The unit's flasher can't
really be seen in daytime easily and the electronic ringer again uses a tone
in the 5000Hz and above range and is inaudible to him. FWIW, based on some
simple tests I did with CoolEdit, a PC program that allows you to create any
audible tone, he can hear most stuff below 4000Hz. Yes he has a hearing aid
but no, he does not sleep with it in.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--
Bobby G.


I'm sure something must be available -- the fire alarms (which are
triggered, inter alia, by smoke detectors) where I work are so loud
the deaf people I work with can _feel_ them when they sound.

Robert Green wrote:
A followup to this thread about low frequency sounders in smoke alarms and
this unit:

http://www.firstalert.com/carbon_mon...tem.php?pid=24

One problem I've noticed with the unit I've put in the basement is that it
occasionally interprets the turning on of the fluorescent lights as an IR
pulse that you would send to self-test the unit remotely. Not a big
problem, and one rectified by placing it so that the worklights don't shine
on it directly, but I'd thought I'd mention it. On the plus side, the unit
is loud enough that we can hear it at night in the bedroom upstairs from the
floor below.

--
Bobby G.


Just wanted to say I appreciate the follow-ups (so many times I follow
an interesting thread that just dies off and I wonder what happened). My
parents are gone, but I've told several people about this concern and
potential solutions. Strange, but I know that as people age they don't
hear higher frequencies as well, and I knew (when I thought about it)
that the smoke alarms are pretty high pitched, but I never put together
that older people might not hear the smoke alarm.

(Me, I think I have all modes covered - I have two herding type dogs
that bark at whatever they think is important which includes things like
telephones and doorbells, and of course falling leaves. And when they
bark they woof and they jump on and off the bed. So I figure I have high
pitched, low pitched and excessive vibrations... not to mention a cold
nose in my face if something goes off when I'm sleeping! Of course, I do
get false alarms during thunder storms).

Robert Green wrote:
I was at an elderly friend's house the other day when the smoke alarm went
off. It was quite loud and I reacted instantly to the noise. My friend, a
former Army marksman in his 70's, who's suffering from profound high
frequency hearing loss, heard nothing!!!

Then I started looking around for alarms that used lower frequency sounders
but the only thing I could find were specially converted smoke detectors
that cost $300!!!!

I'm wondering why COTS alarms operate at such a high sound frequency,
especially when it's well known that older adults lose their high frequency
hearing first. I have been thinking of just unsoldering the Sonalert
sounders in low priced alarms and replacing them with lower frequency
sounders, but that could compromise the detector's ability to sense smoke if
the replacement sounder has sufficiently different electrical
characteristics.

Does anyone know of a *reasonably* priced smoke detector whose sounder is
audible to people with high frequency hearing loss? I'd like to buy a
couple of such detectors for him, but the price on the only unit I've found
would bring the bill to over $1200 for four detectors, and that's just
unreasonable. I know what goes into making a smoke detector and 10x the
cost of the parts still wouldn't bring the price that high.

The idea that smokes use sounders that can't be heard by a lot of elderly
people seems pretty unreasonable to me as well.

Surely someone out there makes a smoke detector or combo smoke/CO detector
(even better) that makes a sound people with typical hearing loss could hear
a little better.

BTW, we can skip flashing light smoke detectors. BT, DT, GTS! He's got a
phone ringer/flasher that he never hears or sees. The unit's flasher can't
really be seen in daytime easily and the electronic ringer again uses a tone
in the 5000Hz and above range and is inaudible to him. FWIW, based on some
simple tests I did with CoolEdit, a PC program that allows you to create any
audible tone, he can hear most stuff below 4000Hz. Yes he has a hearing aid
but no, he does not sleep with it in.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--
Bobby G.



I haven't followed the entire thread, so don't know the solution. With
an elderly person with such severe hearing loss, he might be eligible
for special alarms...either as handicapped or elderly person. I suppose
you have checked with the fire department?

wrote in message
...
I haven't followed the entire thread, so don't know the solution. With an
elderly person with such severe hearing loss, he might be eligible for
special alarms...either as handicapped or elderly person. I suppose you
have checked with the fire department?

To summarize:

* The industry has recently recognized the problem
* First Alert offers some speaking alarms, with warbling three-beep tones,
that work well starting around $40.
* There are also (much) more expensive and specialized versions.

J.

FYI: I just learned (by reading the plastic package these thincs
com in) that there are TWO types of, well, FIRE alarms:

1: SMOKE alarms, that work via PHOTOCELL -- and this kind has
a "P" on the package.

2: the kind that works via some wee radioactive thing, that
senses, I think, the FIRE. It has some OTHER single-letter
printed on the package.

The instructions advised have BOTH types. Unfortunately,
Costco (where I shop) seems to have only the P-marked
kind.


David

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:02:40 +0000 (UTC), (David
Combs) wrote Re Smoke detectors for the elderly:

2: the kind that works via some wee radioactive thing, that
senses, I think, the FIRE. It has some OTHER single-letter
printed on the package.

Most of the above type of alarm uses Americium-241 (an Alfa particle
emitter) in it's detector chamber to ionize air and detect combustion
products.
--
I filter all messages from google groups.

Walmart (on the Web) sells a First Alert Detector that uses both methods and
can be remote controlled via a TV remote control to cancel unwanted alarms
or to test the systems. Costs 19.96 Best Buy rating in Consumer Reports

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...#ProductDetail

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"David Combs" wrote in message
...
FYI: I just learned (by reading the plastic package these thincs
com in) that there are TWO types of, well, FIRE alarms:

1: SMOKE alarms, that work via PHOTOCELL -- and this kind has
a "P" on the package.

2: the kind that works via some wee radioactive thing, that
senses, I think, the FIRE. It has some OTHER single-letter
printed on the package.

The instructions advised have BOTH types. Unfortunately,
Costco (where I shop) seems to have only the P-marked
kind.


David

In article ,
Robert Green wrote:

....
light. Since posting my first question, I found an alarm that will suffice
that's got a low-frequency horn that sounds a little like a truck backing
up. Very audible.

--
Bobby G.


Great! Congratulations! May your old one live longer than any
of the rest of us!


NOW -- how about telling THE REST OF US what BRAND it is, WHERE you GOT
it, how much you PAID for it, etc.

If only one of those, how about the BRAND, the NAME of the thing?

Please.


David

Somewhere towards the beginning of this thread I saw (but
cannot find it now) a post with the suggestion to:

Dig into the thing, disconnect the alarm, and wire
on instead something really LOUD, LOW PITCHED, etc.

To me, that's a pretty good way to go.

Measure the voltage when it's beeping (er, trying to
beep), then go buy a relay that works at that voltage,
hook up some HIGHER voltage or power source to the
other end of the relay that goes to eg some electric
version of a truck horn, or fire-engine siren (hell,
maybe an ordinary siren (a la Odysseus on his way back
from Troy, having himself tied to the ship's mast --
which if that doesn't get him "up", I don't know what will!),
something like that.

Or maybe hooked to an install-it-yourself burglar-alarm,
with horns distributed througout the house.

------

What *I*'d like to do is somehow get into my APC UPS --
you know, that big HEAVY battery-plus-electonics box
you plug into the wall, and then your computer into it.

There's NO WAY that I'm going to hear the beep-beep-beep-beeping
sound if I'm up or downstairs from it, and the circuit blows,
OR if I'm listening to music or whatever via earphones,
OR if I'm asleep or napping (with the bedroom door closed).


Thinking along as I write this thing, maybe that burglar-alarm
idea isn't so bad.

ESPECIALLY if it has TWO kinds of beeps, eg one for burglar,
and another for one of those around-the-neck "HELP -- I'm
in trouble (fell down the stairs, ...)", and use that 2nd
one for the UPS.

(I sure don't want to go rushing around the house finding
out which computer UPS it is when there's actually
an armed burglar loose in the house!)

Anyone have any ideas on HOW to do this, to get into the
UPS to wire something (eg a relay) in parallel to its beeper?


Thanks!

David

In article ,
Robert Green wrote:

....
Yeah, all sorts of crap lands on the A-coil when it's wet and by the time
you start running really hot air over it from the furnace on the first cold
day it starts a stinkin'. I live across the street from a firehouse and the
first really cold night will have maybe 10 alarms running for smoke smell
calls.

What's an "A-coil"?

Thanks,

David

In article ,
Robert Green wrote:
"Mark" wrote in message news:ZsPxm.18775
stuff snipped
Our local tv station did a story a few years ago about small children not
waking to the loud hi-pitched alarms. They even did a test and showed
several small kids sleeping right thru an alarm right in their rooms.
They
showed one that actually had a recorded voice of the child's mom yelling
for
them to get up and get out of the house and kids seemed to hear and
respond
to that. Here's a story on 'talking smoke detectors':

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/ara_talkingsmokealar

You can get more with a Google on 'talking smoke detectors'.

Yes, thanks. It's this search that ironically led me to the detector I was
seeking. A low pitched alarm that does both CO and smoke for under $40 and
that runs on batteries.

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction!

--
Bobby G.




And please tell us what brand, etc, it is.

Thanks

David

In article ,
dpb wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html
I reposted a story about that, a while back. Someone put it
on the web, too. Kid with a bunch of ambition.

As a NucE, I found the reports on that incident less than
satisfying--absolutely no indications of what levels were actually found
or actual numeric quantities of any of the materials to the point of
determining at all what level of hazard might have been.

At the time I looked for any NRC Region incident reports and found none;
my general conclusion is locals got carried away w/ chance to use their
gear and run some training exercises as much (or perhaps even more) as
it was a real problem...

The "several times background" kinds of numbers sound ominous but in
reality, given what background levels typically are and that Am is an
alpha-emitter so it's radius of being a problem even in open air is on
the order of a few cm at most the hazard is localized at most. There
was simply not enough other hard data to estimate what level of
activations he could possibly have achieved but imo highly unlikely to
have been much at all although theoretically possible some could have
occurred. The Be actually was probably the most personally hazardous
material as it is quite toxic in low quantities (not radioactive,
poisonous-style toxic).

As for the kid's counter showing contamination around the neighborhood,
I'd say the odds were/are very high he was simply carrying it around
with him unwittingly on clothing, shoes, hands, etc., and measuring it
rather than a direct line-of-sight measurement from the backyard area.
Or, of course, given the stuff he did w/o adequate respirators, etc.,
there's also a good chance he had ingested/inhaled enough that it was an
internal body loading he was measuring.

--

So what'd they give him, life without parole?

(Suppose his name was eg Mustafa?)

Just tonight on BOOKTV (cspan-2) is an hour on a book (talk
by author) on something like "how the feds persecute (prosecute?)
innocent people". Go to booktv.org/schedule. Or, if you miss it,
and it isn't on again next weekend, follow the link for video (I think
it is named), it'll take you to youtube, and you can see it there.

Wait til maybe wednesday for them to get it up over there.

:-(


David

In article ,
mm wrote:


My AC smoke alarm specifically says not to make changes to it, but I
connected a relay coil across the buzzer, and I used the contacts as
part of my burglar/fire alarm system, first to set off the alarm,
steady instead of wailing, and soon it will notify a monitoring
service.

If I have messed up the alarm and I die in a fire, I have in my will
that my estate should sue me.


Details on exactly how you did it, what kind of relay (serial number?),
etc, crude schematic (via your website), etc?

Thanks!

David

In article ,
George wrote:


One good answer is an alarm panel with the output connected to a
siren/voice speaker driver. Our system has a piercing siren sound then
says *FIRE*, *FIRE*, *FIRE*---LEAVE IMMEDIATELY in a commanding male
voice, then a lower frequency staccato siren sound then repeats. There
is enough noise to get most anyones attention.

It uses all standard off the shelf stuff.

The other advantage is that the smoke alarms are powered from the panel
which provides supervision and also power during an AC power outage.


Sounds REALLY good. (Maybe can also hook the computer UPS's output
into it too.)

Specific details?

And maybe even crude (or not so crude) schematic and/or pictures,
avail of course not here (ascii!) but via ptr to your website?

Or if no website, then reply to our emails to you with that stuff
attached?

THANKS!

David

In article ,
Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , zzznot wrote:
"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
It's amusing, in a sad sort of way, that it's so hard to find some simple
information. I downloaded the PDF but couldn't find any specs for the
sound frequency.

If it does voice, I'm going to assume it handles at least
the classic telephonic range of about 300hz to 3000hz, plus
or minus a couple of db.

High chance minimal upper portion of first formant range, as in above
400 or 600 Hz or so, and even then likely minus more than a couple dB at
frequencies that low unless it uses an actual dynamic loudspeaker
preferably at least 1.5 inches in diameter.

I have experience with an 800 Hz highpass 4th order Chebyshev filter
leaving voices fully recognizeable, and only moderately to
moderately-severely "tinny". Frequencies much below 700 Hz were
essentially absent here, roughly 10 dB down at 700 Hz and probably at
least 32 dB down at 400 Hz.

Most loudspeakers do not achieve flatness of frequency response to +/- 2
dB over their rated frequency ranges. One rated for +/- 3 dB has
traditionally been considered a "high fidelity" one, even if achieving
this only in a specific setup or the variable frequency signal being
moderately narrowband filtered noise rather than sine wave, and I have
seen very little improvement in loudspeaker fidelity in the past 25 years.

- Don Klipstein )

For those of us interested in such things (Fourier stuff, filters
(at least buying of them, etc)), PLEASE say MUCH more about your
setup, how you did it, where you got the parts, etc, etc.

Thanks!

David

In article ,
cjt wrote:

I'm sure something must be available -- the fire alarms (which are
triggered, inter alia, by smoke detectors) where I work are so loud
the deaf people I work with can _feel_ them when they sound.

Brand? (Maybe they make a home-model? or a LARGE-HOME model?)

David

David Combs wrote:

What's an "A-coil"?

This discussion is about a combined forced air heating and cooling
system. In a typical installation the air first passes through a
squirrel cage fan, then the heat exchanger, then the cooling coil which
is often A-shaped. At the beginning of the heating season there is
frequently a burning smell from dust, etc. that have accumulated on the
heat exchanger or coil during the off-season.

When a house has central AC, there is typically an
evaporator installed over the furnace. Since the tubes and
fins are shaped some what like a capital A, they are fondly
called A-coils. The term "coil" is because the early
evaporators and condensors were coils of copper tubing.

There are also W-coils, though they look more like M-coils.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David Combs" wrote in message
...

What's an "A-coil"?

Thanks,

David