G. Morgan wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 02:45:43 +0000 (UTC), (David Combs)
wrote:

Dig into the thing, disconnect the alarm, and wire
on instead something really LOUD, LOW PITCHED, etc.

To me, that's a pretty good way to go.


It's also against code.

One should NEVER tamper with the insides of a life-safety device. Find the
right device for the right purpose.

Unless, of course, there doesn't appear to be a "right purpose" device
and the alteration improves the function for the specific purpose.

Which specific Code section are we violating here? Manufacturers'
warranties, etc., sure, but I'm not sure Code covers modifications for
purpose.

--

wrote:
....
Which specific Code section are we violating here? Manufacturers'
warranties, etc., sure, but I'm not sure Code covers modifications for
purpose.

I am
110.3(B)

If a function can't be achieved w/ off-the-shelf components then that's
saying complying w/ Code overrules accomplishing the task. That's an
over-application of the Code w/ the letter overruling the intent.

--

wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:08:11 -0600, dpb wrote:

wrote:
...
Which specific Code section are we violating here? Manufacturers'
warranties, etc., sure, but I'm not sure Code covers modifications for
purpose.
I am
110.3(B)
If a function can't be achieved w/ off-the-shelf components then that's
saying complying w/ Code overrules accomplishing the task. That's an
over-application of the Code w/ the letter overruling the intent.

They sell 90db (the point at which hearing is damaged) smoke alarms
with a strobe light so you can't say there are no solutions available.
If you can't hear a 90db horn in your bedroom 100db probably won't
help much.

I argued against the "NEVER" under any circumstances not the specific.

Saying there are always solutions available is like the guy arguing that
the patent office should have been closed because everything had already
been invented.

--

G. Morgan wrote:
....

I'm not saying a DIY'er with a good handle on electronics can not
make it work. But for practical purposes, it's just not a good idea.
You may end up with a device that does not do it's job, and when
lives are at stake.... Well, you get the picture.

Yeah, and in specific circumstances one may end up w/ a device that
serves the purpose better than the original would have...well, you get
the picture...

Again, I'm not saying it's a wily-nily sorta' thing and I'd certainly
not recommend futzin' around w/ grandpa's auxiliary breathing
apparatus...

--

Stormin Mormon wrote:
When a house has central AC, there is typically an
evaporator installed over the furnace. Since the tubes and
fins are shaped some what like a capital A, they are fondly
called A-coils. The term "coil" is because the early
evaporators and condensors were coils of copper tubing.

There are also W-coils, though they look more like M-coils.


You forgot the slash coils "/". *snicker*

TDD

Didn't forget them. I also didn't forget the | coils, or
the - coils. Just figured they weren't relevant at the
moment. I also didn't forget the 0 coils.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
When a house has central AC, there is typically an
evaporator installed over the furnace. Since the tubes and
fins are shaped some what like a capital A, they are
fondly
called A-coils. The term "coil" is because the early
evaporators and condensors were coils of copper tubing.

There are also W-coils, though they look more like
M-coils.


You forgot the slash coils "/". *snicker*

TDD

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Didn't forget them. I also didn't forget the | coils, or
the - coils. Just figured they weren't relevant at the
moment. I also didn't forget the 0 coils.


Ever work on any of those old condensers that looked like
tombstones? One motor and a blade on either end which
pulled air in from either side and blew it out through the
coil which was like an inverted "U". I think they were made
by York but I'm not sure.

TDD

"Bob" wrote in message
...
David Combs wrote:

What's an "A-coil"?

This discussion is about a combined forced air heating and cooling
system. In a typical installation the air first passes through a
squirrel cage fan, then the heat exchanger, then the cooling coil which
is often A-shaped. At the beginning of the heating season there is
frequently a burning smell from dust, etc. that have accumulated on the
heat exchanger or coil during the off-season.

When did this thread get re-ignited, and why is it about furnaces now? (-:
Anyway, Dave, Bob has given you the answer. I'll try to explain further,
and no doubt get something wrong, but hey, that's how we learn.

The "A coil" is a very much like the fin & tube constructions you see on the
back of refrigerators or inside freezers. Because space in furnaces is
tight, instead of a large rectangular grid, they fold it over to increase
the surface area. Warm air from the house is passed over these finned tubes
filled with cold refrigerant, warming the refrigerant and cooling the air.
In the process of cooling, the air gives up its moisture, which *should*
flow into a drain but in sick refrigerators and air conditioners, it often
shows up on the floor and sometimes gets blamed on the dog. (-:

This process causes a number of side effects. Moisture often forms on the
heat exchanger helping it corrode. The "A coil" also tends to trap, all
the dust, dirt and hair that make it through the filter and clot on the fine
fin work. The exchanger forms a skin of dust because it's usually moist
from condensation.

The first time the furnace runs in the winter that dust, hair, dirt and mite
laden "shell" on the exchanger "burns" off - not actually, but it's heated
to the "stinkpoint" pretty nicely though. If you've got a couple of dogs
and bad furnace filtration, as in no electronic air filter, the smell can
get pretty hideous. That's when people call the FD. We've already had one
round of such fire calls here in MD, but the calls will start when the
daytime temps fall and the houses don't retain enough warmth to pass the
night comfortably as they do now.

The warmed up refrigerant goes outside where it's compressed again and the
cycle begins again. My A/C was installed pre-internet days and I never
would have done it (retrofitted an old furnace) had I known then what I know
now (ducts were too small and in all the wrong places to support efficient
air-conditioning. It was a really expensive lesson, not only for the cost
of the unit, but for the increase in assessment and the cost of window air
conditioners, which turned out to be a much better idea in many dimensions,
at least for our teeny house.

Note: I'm just a Joe Homeowner, so don't believe anything I say unless you
also hear it from one of the many experts here.

--
Bobby G.

"David Combs" wrote in message
stuff snipped
And please tell us what brand, etc, it is.

Sorry I didn't see this sooner, and in case someone else hasn't replied.

http://www.firstalert.com/carbon_mon...tem.php?pid=24

I tend to over-snip stuff sometimes and I hate to keep repeating product
URLs lest I be accused of shilling or spamming.

--
Bobby G.

Two fans, both pushing in? I got to put my hands on one,
once. The guy wanted to know how to clean the air filters.
And asked about put in central AC. I noticed the evaporator,
went out and looked. Sure enough, there's the inverted U
unit outdoors. I pushed the slider on the stat, and the AC
came on. All the money I saved him!

Can't remember the brand. I've heard those are hell to
trouble shoot if one of the motors is blowing the wrong
direction.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...

Ever work on any of those old condensers that looked like
tombstones? One motor and a blade on either end which
pulled air in from either side and blew it out through the
coil which was like an inverted "U". I think they were made
by York but I'm not sure.

TDD

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Two fans, both pushing in? I got to put my hands on one,
once. The guy wanted to know how to clean the air filters.
And asked about put in central AC. I noticed the evaporator,
went out and looked. Sure enough, there's the inverted U
unit outdoors. I pushed the slider on the stat, and the AC
came on. All the money I saved him!

Can't remember the brand. I've heard those are hell to
trouble shoot if one of the motors is blowing the wrong
direction.


It's just one motor, like in a window AC. The shaft sticks
out both ends of the motor. I think I know where one is and
I may drop by to see what brand it is.

TDD

"G. Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 02:45:43 +0000 (UTC), (David Combs)
wrote:


Dig into the thing, disconnect the alarm, and wire
on instead something really LOUD, LOW PITCHED, etc.

To me, that's a pretty good way to go.


It's also against code.

One should NEVER tamper with the insides of a life-safety device. Find
the
right device for the right purpose.

Agreed. Even when I thought my only choice was to hook a louder, lower
frequency sounder to an existing alarm, I was thinking of coupling it with
an audio sensor of some kind triggering a relay when it "heard" the alarm
sound. Since it was his only smoke detector in the room, I wanted to make
sure there was no alteration of the circuit. It's possible to couple the
smoke alarm's output via a mic or in induction pickup like an old suction
cup telephone tap.

The problem I ran into is that I knew that the unit he needed was $300 and
way over budget for a guy who got shown the door at a company he/we helped
build when he got sick.

If the choice was a hacked smoke detector he could actually hear, v. one
that was code approved that he couldn't hear, I would hack. There were some
other options, though, like finding a smoke that closed dry contacts when it
sounded and then hooking a louder sounder to that one.

I am not sure what to do now that I've found out he sits in his chair with
full cup noise-canceling headphones on, often falling asleep. It's time to
step up to a chair shaker. Now here's the "moral" issue. He's already got
two smoke detectors now. One he can actually hear with his high frequency
hearing loss. While it's not code, buying a third detector and somehow
connecting it to a relay to control a bedshaker would mean he was already
overprotected. Since he at least meets minimum standards with two, is
hacking a third to control something I could attach to his chair that would
vibrate it that much of a sin? I've see the little off-center load motors
they use to make cellphones vibrate, so there's got to be some "home
brewable" or even reasonably priced commercial unit out there.

The real problem is that he definitely won't spend the money for any of the
horribly overpriced systems sold commercially. I understand that they mark
that stuff up tremendously to avoid getting whittled to nothing by insurance
reimbursements, but to him it's real money.

The best technical solution may be a wireless mike with a telephone pickup
placed on the alarm. When it sounds, it will be transmitted via the pickup
to the wireless mike receiver. Then, I can use Y-cables to combine the
signal from the alarm into the headphone feed from his stereo/TV console. I
could use a microphone with a very high squelch level to filter out any
noise except the detector. Hmmm. I guess the first thing to do is
research bed shaker smoke alarms. The fun never stops.

Thanks for your input, Mr. Morgan.

--
Bobby G.

I didn't look that closely. But, if you had the wrong blade
on one end, you could have a nice wind tunnel, and not much
air movement.

I've long ago forgotten where was the one I saw.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Two fans, both pushing in? I got to put my hands on one,
once. The guy wanted to know how to clean the air filters.
And asked about put in central AC. I noticed the
evaporator,
went out and looked. Sure enough, there's the inverted U
unit outdoors. I pushed the slider on the stat, and the AC
came on. All the money I saved him!

Can't remember the brand. I've heard those are hell to
trouble shoot if one of the motors is blowing the wrong
direction.


It's just one motor, like in a window AC. The shaft sticks
out both ends of the motor. I think I know where one is and
I may drop by to see what brand it is.

TDD

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I didn't look that closely. But, if you had the wrong blade
on one end, you could have a nice wind tunnel, and not much
air movement.

I've long ago forgotten where was the one I saw.


Hey, I have a couple of digital cameras, I could take a picture
and post it.

TDD

G. Morgan wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Thanks for your input, Mr. Morgan.

You're welcome.

Another option is to use an off-the shelf detector with auxiliary contacts
built-in. They are far for common and much less expensive than the unit you're
mentioning. You can then trigger any device you want (UL listed for fire or
not) to make the appropriate signal tone.


I think there are relays that are intended (UL listed) to be used with
some 3-wire smoke alarms (where all alarms go off). The relay would give
you auxiliary contacts.

--
bud--

I'd really appreciate th at. There is a web site (image
shack dot us) that I tried earlier today. Worked well.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I didn't look that closely. But, if you had the wrong
blade
on one end, you could have a nice wind tunnel, and not
much
air movement.

I've long ago forgotten where was the one I saw.


Hey, I have a couple of digital cameras, I could take a
picture
and post it.

TDD

"G. Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 -0500, "Robert Green"

wrote:


Thanks for your input, Mr. Morgan.

You're welcome.

Another option is to use an off-the shelf detector with auxiliary contacts
built-in. They are far for common and much less expensive than the unit
you're
mentioning. You can then trigger any device you want (UL listed for fire
or
not) to make the appropriate signal tone.

Any recommendations?

Thanks in advance,

--
Bobby G.

"bud--" wrote in message
...
G. Morgan wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 -0500, "Robert Green"

wrote:

Thanks for your input, Mr. Morgan.

You're welcome.

Another option is to use an off-the shelf detector with auxiliary
contacts
built-in. They are far for common and much less expensive than the unit
you're
mentioning. You can then trigger any device you want (UL listed for
fire or
not) to make the appropriate signal tone.


I think there are relays that are intended (UL listed) to be used with
some 3-wire smoke alarms (where all alarms go off). The relay would give
you auxiliary contacts.

--
bud--

Any specific items to recommend?

Thanks!

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
...
G. Morgan wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 -0500, "Robert Green"

wrote:

Thanks for your input, Mr. Morgan.
You're welcome.

Another option is to use an off-the shelf detector with auxiliary
contacts
built-in. They are far for common and much less expensive than the unit
you're
mentioning. You can then trigger any device you want (UL listed for
fire or
not) to make the appropriate signal tone.

I think there are relays that are intended (UL listed) to be used with
some 3-wire smoke alarms (where all alarms go off). The relay would give
you auxiliary contacts.

--
bud--

Any specific items to recommend?


From Kiddie:
http://www.kiddeus.com/utcfs/ws-384/...%20Modules.pdf
The way I read the site is if you have smoke alarms and CO detectors
wired together to common-alarm, one relay module will alarm only for the
smoke detectors and one relay will alarm only for CO detectors.

Some other smoke alarm manufacturers must have similar relays.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
...
G. Morgan wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 -0500, "Robert Green"

wrote:

Thanks for your input, Mr. Morgan.
You're welcome.

Another option is to use an off-the shelf detector with auxiliary
contacts
built-in. They are far for common and much less expensive than the
unit
you're
mentioning. You can then trigger any device you want (UL listed for
fire or
not) to make the appropriate signal tone.

I think there are relays that are intended (UL listed) to be used with
some 3-wire smoke alarms (where all alarms go off). The relay would
give
you auxiliary contacts.

--
bud--

Any specific items to recommend?


From Kiddie:
http://www.kiddeus.com/utcfs/ws-384/...%20Modules.pdf
The way I read the site is if you have smoke alarms and CO detectors
wired together to common-alarm, one relay module will alarm only for the
smoke detectors and one relay will alarm only for CO detectors.

Some other smoke alarm manufacturers must have similar relays.

--
bud--

Thanks, Bud - I'll look into it.

--
Bobby G.