I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

On Jan 20, 6:54*am, RedDwarf wrote:
I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

I would do it right. you will quite likely decide later to cover the
bare studs with something. Drilling those holes is not a major
undertaking. Get a spade bit - 5/8" will pass one romex conductor
easily and time to drill each hole is way less than a minute. Put the
holes in the _middle_ of the stud.

Harry K

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:54:05 -0800 (PST), RedDwarf
wrote:

I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

You dont need to drill if you are leaving the rafters exposed. Just
staple it to the bottom of the rafters. If you're going from joist to
joist (across the joists), code requires solid wood under the wire, so
just nail a 1x4 under the rafters and staple it to that, which might
be a good place to put lights too.

LM

I built a shed in a far more moderate climate than VA, and after a
couple of years of suffering I put in insulation and drywall. OP might
consider whether the shed will be comfortable enough to use more than a
month or two out of the year. DIRTFT.

"Harry K" wrote in message
...
On Jan 20, 6:54 am, RedDwarf wrote:
I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

I would do it right. you will quite likely decide later to cover the
bare studs with something. Drilling those holes is not a major
undertaking. Get a spade bit - 5/8" will pass one romex conductor
easily and time to drill each hole is way less than a minute. Put the
holes in the _middle_ of the stud.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, a 1/2" hole is plenty of room for today's plastic coated Romex.
Also, he mentions a work bench, if this is a workshop what is the problem
with drilling holes? He should have the equipment, ability and the drive to
drill a few holes to do the job right instead of trying to be lazy and skimp
on installing his wiring.

On Jan 20, 11:25*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,



wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:54:05 -0800 (PST), RedDwarf
wrote:

I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

You dont need to drill if you are leaving the rafters exposed. *Just
staple it to the bottom of the rafters. *If you're going from joist to
joist (across the joists), code requires solid wood under the wire, so
just nail a 1x4 under the rafters and staple it to that, which might
be a good place to put lights too.

LM

I built a shed in a far more moderate climate than VA, and after a
couple of years of suffering I put in insulation and drywall. OP might
consider whether the shed will be comfortable enough to use more than a
month or two out of the year. DIRTFT.

thanks everyone. I wouldn't mind drilling - the problem is when I
drill, i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.
I may do a combination of both running it across the rafters and going
through some of the stud walls. Thanks again!

On Jan 20, 10:35*am, RedDwarf wrote:
....
thanks everyone. I wouldn't mind drilling - the problem is when I
drill, i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.
I may do a combination of both running it across the rafters and going
through some of the stud walls. Thanks again!

I concur w/ the others -- do a neat job, correctly.

What are you using for bits and what kind of studs? No way in a
typical stud should that be a problem and even if you do dull a spade
bit all it takes is about 30 seconds on each side at the grinder to
make it better than new--certainly don't need a new one.

For such work I prefer a self-feeding augur instead, anyway, though...

--

On 2009-01-20, RedDwarf wrote:

I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill?

Well, if you are using Romex, you have to cover it with a 15 minute
fire barrier such as drywall. [See NEC 334.10(3)] That will be a lot
easier if you drill the studs. :-)

Cheers, Wayne

On Jan 20, 8:35*am, RedDwarf wrote:
On Jan 20, 11:25*am, Smitty Two wrote:



In article ,

wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:54:05 -0800 (PST), RedDwarf
wrote:

I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

You dont need to drill if you are leaving the rafters exposed. *Just
staple it to the bottom of the rafters. *If you're going from joist to
joist (across the joists), code requires solid wood under the wire, so
just nail a 1x4 under the rafters and staple it to that, which might
be a good place to put lights too.

LM

I built a shed in a far more moderate climate than VA, and after a
couple of years of suffering I put in insulation and drywall. OP might
consider whether the shed will be comfortable enough to use more than a
month or two out of the year. DIRTFT.

thanks everyone. I wouldn't mind drilling - the problem is when I
drill, i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.
I may do a combination of both running it across the rafters and going
through some of the stud walls. Thanks again!

i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.

I'm surprised that you're only getting 2 or 3 holes per
bit............
maybe you need to apply a little more tool pressure and use slightly
slower drill speed.

A 5/8" hole will work also & require a bit less effort to drill.

imo you should be able to do the entire shed with one or two bits at
most.

cheers
Bob

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message

Well, if you are using Romex, you have to cover it with a 15 minute
fire barrier such as drywall. [See NEC 334.10(3)] That will be a lot
easier if you drill the studs. :-)

Cheers, Wayne

That would be code for living space, but I doubt it is needed for a shed.
Do you have some other information on that?

In article , RedDwarf wrote:
thanks everyone. I wouldn't mind drilling - the problem is when I
drill, i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.

First off, if this is "getting expensive", that's your own fault. Spade bits
can be *easily* resharpened in seconds on a grinder, or in a minute or two
with a file. There's no need to throw them away just because they're dull.

Second, if you're dulling them that fast -- your drill is set in reverse. Flip
the switch so it spins the other way, and it'll work a LOT better.

On Jan 20, 12:50*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RedDwarf wrote:

thanks everyone. I wouldn't mind drilling - the problem is when I
drill, i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.

First off, if this is "getting expensive", that's your own fault. Spade bits
can be *easily* resharpened in seconds on a grinder, or in a minute or two
with a file. There's no need to throw them away just because they're dull..

Second, if you're dulling them that fast -- your drill is set in reverse. Flip
the switch so it spins the other way, and it'll work a LOT better.

Well assuming spade bits drive like every other drill bit - then it's
set correctly. I don't think you can build a shed from the ground up
not knowing which way a bit spins. The problem is that the to prongs/
spades keep breaking off as I begin to get through the 2x4. I may try
sharpening the point itself and see how that goes.

On Jan 20, 1:28*pm, RedDwarf wrote:
....
... The problem is that the to prongs/
spades keep breaking off as I begin to get through the 2x4. ...

Where are you getting these pos bits--the 49 cent bin at Big Lots?

I can't fathom how you could actually manage to break a decent-quality
spade bit -- I've ones that are probably approaching 30 yrs old that
have been used in oak railroad ties repeatedly that are as good as new
when touched up a little. What are you drilling (that is, what is the
material of the studs)? Typical new construction lumber is so soft as
to cut (more like tear 'cause it's often still wet) w/ almost no
effort.

--

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:54:05 -0800 (PST), RedDwarf
wrote:

I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...


You can use surface-mount conduit. The (Romex) wire should be
protected from critters and anything else that could cause damage.
Ideally, you drill one hole large enough to take 3-4 wires.

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:49:58 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Jan 20, 6:54*am, RedDwarf wrote:
I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

I would do it right. you will quite likely decide later to cover the
bare studs with something. Drilling those holes is not a major
undertaking. Get a spade bit - 5/8" will pass one romex conductor
easily and time to drill each hole is way less than a minute. Put the
holes in the _middle_ of the stud.

Harry K


I hacksawed off part of a spade bit shank to allow my drill to fit
between the studs. Since then I bought a 90-Degree drill attachment.

In article , RedDwarf wrote:
The problem is that the to prongs/
spades keep breaking off as I begin to get through the 2x4.

In that case... the bits you're buying are garbage. Wherever you're going to
buy them, don't go back.

Again, if this is getting expensive, that's your own fault. That's what
happens when you buy the cheapest crap you can find: you have to keep
replacing it. The lowest price is usually *not* the best value. Pony up the
extra bucks *once* and get a decent set of bits. I'm still using a set of
spade bits that I bought _at least_ 25 years ago, and have used for literally
thousands of holes. I've had to replace exactly one of them during that time,
and that was because I lost it.

Try *any* of the following:

Craftsman
Irwin
Vermont American
Ace Hardware's house brand

It's your shed. Put the wire where YOU want it.

--
All you scholars who think bush messed up..... You ain't seen nothin' yet!
Just wait. You'll be cryin' for mercy after a while with Bro Bama





"RedDwarf" wrote in message
...
I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

On 2009-01-20, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

That would be code for living space, but I doubt it is needed for a
shed. Do you have some other information on that?

Actually it is the other way around, in a dwelling there is no overall
requirement to cover romex, you only need to cover it as required to
protect it from damage, etc. Section 334.10 of the 2008 NEC reads in
part:

334.10 Uses Permitted. Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be
permitted to be used in the following:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings.
(2) Multifamily dwellings permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V
construction except as prohibited in 334.12.
(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V
construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be
concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal
barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as
identified in listings of firerated assemblies.

So unless you are in a dwelling, it needs to be fully covered by a
15-minute finish. While many inspectors would give you a pass on an
accessory building to a dwelling (e.g. shed or detached garage), if
you read the definition of "Dwelling" in Article 100 of the NEC, it is
clear than an accessory building to a dwelling is not a dwelling.
Even if an inspector accepts a code violation, your liability for
violating the code is still there.

The moral is don't run uncovered romex in an accessory building. :-)

Cheers, Wayne

(Doug Miller) wrote in
:

In article
,
RedDwarf wrote:
The problem is that the to prongs/
spades keep breaking off as I begin to get through the 2x4.

In that case... the bits you're buying are garbage. Wherever you're
going to buy them, don't go back.

Again, if this is getting expensive, that's your own fault. That's
what happens when you buy the cheapest crap you can find: you have to
keep replacing it. The lowest price is usually *not* the best value.
Pony up the extra bucks *once* and get a decent set of bits. I'm still
using a set of spade bits that I bought _at least_ 25 years ago, and
have used for literally thousands of holes. I've had to replace
exactly one of them during that time, and that was because I lost it.

Try *any* of the following:

Craftsman
Irwin
Vermont American
Ace Hardware's house brand








If those don't work, go at the corner of the building on the outside.
Fire a .45 down the wall. All holes made at once. Duct tape entry & exit
holes.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
It's your shed. Put the wire where YOU want it.

--
All you scholars who think bush messed up..... You ain't seen nothin' yet!
Just wait. You'll be cryin' for mercy after a while with Bro Bama





"RedDwarf" wrote in message
...
I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...



I've seen quite a few sheds and garages that are wired that aren't
sheetrocked ..In fact I don't think I've ever seen a garden shed sheetrocked
so I'm just a little confused...If I run a wire out to the wife's garden
shed for a light and an outlet or 2 I have to sheetrock it??? I find that
hard to believe based on what I've seen out in the real world....

On 2009-01-21, wrote:

If the AHJ accepts it, it is not a code violation.

Certainly the AHJ has discretion over alot of things in the NEC that
are vague or unclear, like "something to physical damage" or "nearest
point of entry". But the inspector is not the AHJ, it is usually the
city building department or some state department.

And there's nothing unclear about the Romex issue here, it's just
something that enforcement is often very lax on. I'm not sure if the
AHJ can modify the NEC on its own, or if it would take action of the
state building code committee to amend the state code.

Cheers, Wayne

On 2009-01-21, benick wrote:

I've seen quite a few sheds and garages that are wired that aren't
sheetrocked ..In fact I don't think I've ever seen a garden shed
sheetrocked so I'm just a little confused...If I run a wire out to
the wife's garden shed for a light and an outlet or 2 I have to
sheetrock it??? I find that hard to believe based on what I've seen
out in the real world....

If the garage is detached, and you are using Romex, it needs sheetrock
or the equivalent to comply with the NEC, unless your state has
amended that section. Often the real world and the building codes are
in conflict. :-) It would be simplest just to use MC/AC cable instead
of Romex.

Cheers, Wayne

"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2009-01-21, benick wrote:

I've seen quite a few sheds and garages that are wired that aren't
sheetrocked ..In fact I don't think I've ever seen a garden shed
sheetrocked so I'm just a little confused...If I run a wire out to
the wife's garden shed for a light and an outlet or 2 I have to
sheetrock it??? I find that hard to believe based on what I've seen
out in the real world....

If the garage is detached, and you are using Romex, it needs sheetrock
or the equivalent to comply with the NEC, unless your state has
amended that section. Often the real world and the building codes are
in conflict. :-) It would be simplest just to use MC/AC cable instead
of Romex.

Cheers, Wayne


, unless your state has amended that section.

That is probably the case Wayne because I have NEVER seen MC/AC Cable in
ANY unfinished sheds or garages here in Maine including my dads garage which
he wired himself and is just a few years old and the CEO didn't fail
it...Gonna look into it though..Wife wants a light in her 10X10 garden
shed...Does that apply to attached garages as well??? Next spring I will be
wiring my attached garage with my dads help....Thanks....

i've never seen it in kansas or missouri either. Always just romex on
studs. no wallboard.

--
All you scholars who think bush messed up..... You ain't seen nothin' yet!
Just wait. You'll be cryin' for mercy after a while with Bro Bama





"benick" wrote in message
...


That is probably the case Wayne because I have NEVER seen MC/AC Cable in
ANY unfinished sheds or garages here in Maine including my dads garage
which he wired himself and is just a few years old and the CEO didn't fail
it...Gonna look into it though..Wife wants a light in her 10X10 garden
shed...Does that apply to attached garages as well??? Next spring I will
be wiring my attached garage with my dads help....Thanks....

On 2009-01-21, benick wrote:

That is probably the case Wayne because I have NEVER seen MC/AC Cable in
ANY unfinished sheds or garages here in Maine

More likely, I think, is that nobody enforces that section. It was
changed in one of the 90's NEC versions, I think; previously Romex had
been prohibited in buildings above a certain height. The wire lobby
got that lifted in exchange for the coverage requirement. So
inspectors were used to uncovered Romex in residential garages and
never started enforcing the change.

Does that apply to attached garages as well

No, a "dwelling" is a building with a "dwelling unit", so your
attached garage is still part of a dwelling.

Cheers, Wayne

On Jan 20, 11:28*am, RedDwarf wrote:
On Jan 20, 12:50*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , RedDwarf wrote:

thanks everyone. I wouldn't mind drilling - the problem is when I
drill, i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.

First off, if this is "getting expensive", that's your own fault. Spade bits
can be *easily* resharpened in seconds on a grinder, or in a minute or two
with a file. There's no need to throw them away just because they're dull.

Second, if you're dulling them that fast -- your drill is set in reverse. Flip
the switch so it spins the other way, and it'll work a LOT better.

Well assuming spade bits drive like every other drill bit - then it's
set correctly. I don't think you can build a shed from the ground up
not knowing which way a bit spins. The problem is that the to prongs/
spades keep breaking off as I begin to get through the 2x4. I may try
sharpening the point itself and see how that goes.

Odd, I still have the original ones I started with 30 years ago and
haven't had one point break off. Had to resharpen them occasionally.
I re did my entire small house that included stripping the walls to
bare studs and rewiring, plus sheds, work at my mother's house, etc.
Still dreag them out occsionaly.

If you are having the problems you claim, you are either doing
something seriously wrong or have some _very_ cheap bits.

Harry K

Harry K

On Jan 20, 12:05*pm, Phisherman wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:49:58 -0800 (PST), Harry K





wrote:
On Jan 20, 6:54*am, RedDwarf wrote:
I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

I would do it right. *you will quite likely decide later to cover the
bare studs with something. *Drilling those holes is not a major
undertaking. *Get a spade bit - 5/8" will pass one romex conductor
easily and time to drill each hole is way less than a minute. Put the
holes in the _middle_ of the stud.

Harry K

I hacksawed off part of a spade bit shank to allow my drill to fit
between the studs. * Since then I bought a 90-Degree drill attachment.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't bother to do that. Using Romex it will run through holes
drilled at a bit of a slant with no problem.

Harry K

On Jan 20, 7:43*pm, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-01-21, benick wrote:

That is probably the case Wayne because I have NEVER seen MC/AC Cable in
ANY unfinished sheds or garages here in Maine

More likely, I think, is that nobody enforces that section. *It was
changed in one of the 90's NEC versions, I think; previously Romex had
been prohibited in buildings above a certain height. *The wire lobby
got that lifted in exchange for the coverage requirement. *So
inspectors were used to uncovered Romex in residential garages and
never started enforcing the change.

Does that apply to attached garages as well

No, a "dwelling" is a building with a "dwelling unit", so your
attached garage is still part of a dwelling.

Cheers, Wayne

I suspect you are misreading the code. I have seen new construction
recently where it is romex in the basement ceiling with no covering.

Harry K

On 2009-01-21, Harry K wrote:

No, a "dwelling" is a building with a "dwelling unit", so your
attached garage is still part of a dwelling.

I suspect you are misreading the code.

Take a look at it yourself in the previous posts.

I have seen new construction recently where it is romex in the
basement ceiling with no covering.

This is the basement of a house? Once the building has a "dwelling
unit", the whole building is a "dwelling", so there is no blanket
requirement for a 15-minute finish. For residential property, the
requirement for a 15-minute finish is only for detached buildings such
as sheds, garages, etc.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2009-01-21, benick wrote:

That is probably the case Wayne because I have NEVER seen MC/AC Cable in
ANY unfinished sheds or garages here in Maine

More likely, I think, is that nobody enforces that section. It was
changed in one of the 90's NEC versions, I think; previously Romex had
been prohibited in buildings above a certain height. The wire lobby
got that lifted in exchange for the coverage requirement.

Right idea but wrong lobby. I looked back at information from the code
change (ROP and ROC).

There was a task group that looked at the change (allow Romex in
buildings above 3 floors), but it didn't have enough votes to bring a
proposal to the code making panel.

Multiple proposals were brought to the code making panel for the 2002
NEC by the National Multi-Housing Council. (There were proposals from
some others including Massachusetts.) This was a major effort to change
the code, probably aimed primarily at housing costs. The code making
panel (which included a representative from the National Multi-Housing
Council) rejected the changes (for good or bad reasons). So did the NFPA
annual member meeting. The change was forced through by 'extraordinary'
methods.

Apparently manufacturers have never argued for the change. The the NEMA
Building Wire Technical Committee unanimously voted to oppose the change.

The change allows Romex to be used in residential structures over 3
floors - the major change that was pushed.
It also allowed Romex to be used in 'other' structures (like commercial)
over 3 floors but added the 15 minute wall rating. This wall rating did
not previously exist for 'other' structures less than 3 floors.

Since the change, the code making panel has (understandably) refused to
make changes (such as exempt garages).

So
inspectors were used to uncovered Romex in residential garages and
never started enforcing the change.

I doubt you will find many inspectors that think a 15 minute wall rating
is useful in a garage or shed. I suspect most inspectors will ignore the
restriction, just as they modify other code that can result in
unreasonable requirements in a particular instance.

Does that apply to attached garages as well

No, a "dwelling" is a building with a "dwelling unit", so your
attached garage is still part of a dwelling.

But a detached garage is a commercial space? Industrial? It is really
difficult to write any code that applies to 'every thing'. That is one
reason the NEC changes every 3 years. And why the AHJ is given final
authority.

--
bud--

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:08:40 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:05:47 GMT, Wayne Whitney
wrote:

On 2009-01-21, Harry K wrote:

No, a "dwelling" is a building with a "dwelling unit", so your
attached garage is still part of a dwelling.

I suspect you are misreading the code.

Take a look at it yourself in the previous posts.

I have seen new construction recently where it is romex in the
basement ceiling with no covering.

This is the basement of a house? Once the building has a "dwelling
unit", the whole building is a "dwelling", so there is no blanket
requirement for a 15-minute finish. For residential property, the
requirement for a 15-minute finish is only for detached buildings such
as sheds, garages, etc.

That all assumes your AHJ doesn't consider an accessory building to a
dwelling as part of the dwelling. (AKA "residential")
When you don't it brings up all sorts of zoning and other code issues.

In most counties in Florida you will have to get a limited
development order to build a shed that is not part of a dwelling.

I guess the good news is you won't need AFCIs or GFCIs because the
"accessory building" is not part of a "dwelling" 210.8(A)(2) ;-)


"dwelling" - not commercial, industrial, agricultural or
institutional.
So as long as the garage/shed is not for "commercial" use, or
"agricultural" use, the romex can be exposed, but not surface mounted
without protection..

On 2009-01-21, bud-- wrote:

Right idea but wrong lobby. I looked back at information from the
code change (ROP and ROC).

Thanks for the background, it was informative.

No, a "dwelling" is a building with a "dwelling unit", so your
attached garage is still part of a dwelling.

But a detached garage is a commercial space? Industrial? It is
really difficult to write any code that applies to 'every
thing'. That is one reason the NEC changes every 3 years. And why
the AHJ is given final authority.

I don't know what a detached garage is (Occupancy U in the building
code?) but it is not a dwelling as far as the NEC is concerned. From
Article 100:

Dwelling, One-Family. A building that consists solely of
one dwelling unit.

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent
provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and sanitation.

Cheers, Wayne

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:07:43 -0600, wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:35:48 -0800 (PST), RedDwarf
wrote:

On Jan 20, 11:25Â*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,



wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 06:54:05 -0800 (PST), RedDwarf
wrote:

I built this shed in the backyard, it has a dedicated 20amp GFCI
circuit running to it. Once inside the shed (it comes in from the
floor) I have it hit a junction box and branch out to the various
spots i need it (outlets/lights etc.).

My question is, do I HAVE to run the wire through the studs (drilling
a lot of holes because studs are 16 on center)? or can I run it on the
surface of the wood, near the top sill? what are my options? I have a
work bench, am I allowed to run it under the work surface, and staple
it to the underside? any thoughts as to how I can avoid drilling a
bunch of holes?

I live in norfolk, va...

You dont need to drill if you are leaving the rafters exposed. Â*Just
staple it to the bottom of the rafters. Â*If you're going from joist to
joist (across the joists), code requires solid wood under the wire, so
just nail a 1x4 under the rafters and staple it to that, which might
be a good place to put lights too.

LM

I built a shed in a far more moderate climate than VA, and after a
couple of years of suffering I put in insulation and drywall. OP might
consider whether the shed will be comfortable enough to use more than a
month or two out of the year. DIRTFT.

thanks everyone. I wouldn't mind drilling - the problem is when I
drill, i'm going through a spade bit like every 2 or 3 studs. it's
getting expensive.
I may do a combination of both running it across the rafters and going
through some of the stud walls. Thanks again!

Besides the worn drill bits, you are weakening the structure.


No, you are NOT weakening the structure as the center of the joist is
neither in compression nor tension - and if it was a web with holes
cut all along the center it would still have something like 95% of
it's strength. If you
think you will install sheetrock or something on the ceiling in the
future, then run the wire in conduit on TOP of the rafters.

On top of the rafters is not allowed because you MIGHT put something
up there.
The
conduit cost wont be much more than the cost of the drill bits, and be
much easier to do, and wont weaken the building. For wall outlets,
drill thru the top plate of the wall, and just use romex there.
Actually I wanted to install romex on top of my garage joists, because
I planned to sheetrock the ceiling, but it was against the code (which
I personally think is a stupid rule), but I followed the code and ran
one conduit across the ceiling (top of rafters), then put a box
whereever I wanted to tap off for a light or wall outlet and those
were nailed to the side of the rafters. I put the conduit near the
wall on top of those rafters. That way, if I want to put some walk
boards up there in the future, the highest part of the roof dont have
a conduit in the way.

LM