On Feb 17, 10:52*am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:44:55 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I don't know why you continue to dismiss a 12 year warranty on the
water heater as useless. * You seem to be saying that because that is
about the typical life of a water heater, that the warranty is of no
value. *Yet you value a 1 year warranty on labor? *

Hi Trader,

Thanks for keeping up on this. Maybe I'm wrong on the warrantee but I took
logic in college and the warrantee seems like a useless marketing tool to
me when I read through what I have to do in order to "make good" on it.

It's hard for me to write this reply because I feel the warranty is only an
advertising gimmick which, to me, is only useful for the first year, mainly
because I'm never going to take the water heater apart and bring it to the
store to obtain the "free" replacement after the first year

You don't have to take the water heater anywhere. As I said, when my
State had the thermocouple fail, all I did was call State up. They
looked it up on their database, determined it was under warranty, and
I had a replacement on my doorstep in 2 days. No charge, no sending
parts back.

Now, I don't know exactly how they handle the case where you have a
leaking water heater. Perhaps they have a local rep or dealer take a
look at it. But I'm sure they don't want you shipping the water
heater back to them.




- and - the
alternative is to pay as much for the labor as the entire water heater cost
in the first place - so the "free" replacement costs just as much as the
original parts if I have a plumber come to me to inspect, diagnose, and
replace it.

If the water heater fails, then you need a new one, don't you?
Without the warranty, you're out not only the labor, but also the cost
of buying a new water heater, which is ~$400.


The warrantee seems absolutely useless to me, after the first
year given those realistic concerns.

It fails in year seven. With a 10 year warranty, you get a either
free parts or a new tank. Without it, you get zippos and the labor is
the same.




Worse than that, I read the entire text of the Sears "12-year limited
warranty" which intimates Sears will replace parts that are defective and
the water heater itself *only* if it develops a leak (no other replacement
is warranted).

Well, what did you expect? That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
If the thermocouple, valve, burner assembly, etc go, you get those
parts. If the tank goes, you get a whole new unit.




installing it yourself, there is no labor anyway,
so why is that even an issue?

This is the ENTIRE issue! If I have to remove the entire water heater in
order to bring it to the store just to see if they'll warrant the parts or
the leaking tank, that's absolutely crazy!

Who said you have to bring it to the store?



Do people really remove their
water heater, truck it in the back of their car to the store, have someone
at the store look at it and decide whether or not to replace the parts,
then, if they decide not to, you truck it back home and re-install it? Or,
if they decide to replace the parts, they hand you the new parts and you
truck the whole drippy thing back home to re-install it? I think not.

If you read my previous post, I told you exactly how State handled my
warranty claim.



If I need to make good on the warrantee, the only way I'll ever do it is to
call a Sears plumber at 800-469-4663 who will likely charge me as much for
the visit as the thing cost in the first place. Sure, I'll get a new water
heater - and it will cost me exactly what it cost when I bought it
considering I MUST use their labor. I have no choice this second time
around.

Does anything in the warranty say you have to use a Sears plumber?
My State warranty had no reqt as to who had to make the repair. I
made the repair myself and State had no problem simply supplying the
parts.


My whole point is the automobile analogy you provided is exactly opposite
of reality! You can easily DRIVE the car to the dealership to get a part
diagnosed and fixed but to drive your water heater to the Sears store would
be ludicrous (for me).

I didn't drive mine anywhere.




Do you see why the automobile analogy doesn't apply for a water heater?
Bringing the water heater to the dealer isn't an option.
To bring the dealer to the water heater costs as much as the water heater.
It's that simple to me.

Even if it were true that you had to bring the water heater back to
where you bought it, your statement still wouldn't be true. Let's
see. Water heater is spewing water from a shot tank. It's under
warranty. Either way it has to be removed. Once it's out, under your
scenario, you could take it back to where you bought it and get a new
one for free. How does it cost $400 to take it back? Or you could
go buy a new one for $400 and then do what with the old one? Many
places you have to take it somewhere anyway to get rid of it. If
you're getting a new one, it seems you could certainly take the old
one back to the store. But I don't think this is a realistic
scenario. They aren't going to expect you to drag the old one to
them and they don't want it.




Donna

i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
plumber.

the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.

the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
inspector wanting to justify his fee.

plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common

Strange, what few gas explosions I hear about are in jurisdictions that
require permits (my city, the 4th largest in the nation) does not.


its happened here a cable crew hit a natural gas line and left the
area.

later some kids came home, turned on light and BOOM.

schools should be required to have a safety class, on all sorts of
hazards, smell of gas, dont use electric around a pool, touch downed
power lines, etc etc

wrote:
i was selling a home and the jerk home inspector failed the brand new
hot water tanks gas valve, and required it be installed by a licensed
plumber.

the tanks manufacturer sent out a whole new controller within 2 days.

the plumber reported no leak on the original one, just a home
inspector wanting to justify his fee.

plumber who i know said that sort of thing is common


I guess I must be lucky, the guy that did our home inspection was very
nice and the only thing I can fault him on is the stuff he missed, and
all of the stuff he missed he couldn't have seen without removing cover
plates, moving ceiling tiles, etc. which he probably couldn't have done.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:


Do get it right. A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning



Hi clams,

We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.

In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).

Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.

He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!

Donna



This has been a very informative thread. I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
years (previous owner). As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.

On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino wrote:
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:





On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:

Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning

Hi clams,

We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.

In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).

Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.

He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!

Donna

This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?

hot water tanks are low cost.

my current one is 7 years old. its on borrowed time

wrote:

On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino wrote:


Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:







On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:


Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning


Hi clams,


We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.


In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).


Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.


He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!


Donna


This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?



Generally speaking, yes. I tend to drive cars until they get to the
point (providing regular maintenance) of requiring significant repairs
(as a second car, always maintaining a good first car).

I don't expect to replace appliances (vacuum cleaner, dish washer,
stove, refrigerator, washer, dryer, toaster, etc) until they are in
need of repair. It's at that point when I typically determine if its
cost effective to replace or repair (typically it's best to toss at that
point). I also wait for light bulbs to burn out, etc. My three lawn
mowers each last about 15 years... till they died.

What other items do you replace on a regular basis?

On Feb 17, 11:24*am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:52:25 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:
I've never used flex on a hot water heater, but suppose that flex
connectors have the di-electric insulator built in. *Should be some
specs attached to that type of connector.

Hi Vic,

There is a black rubber grommet inside the copper flex tube's brass
fittings. Maybe that's the dialectric; but it's tremendously smaller than
the fist-sized dialectric unions we bought yesterday.

Donna

If your pipes are galvanized you don't need di-electric fittings
Right and you are who certianaly not a plumber just a Mike Holmes
wannabe, if you conect copper to galvenized you better use them but
then Iam only a master plumber so what would I know

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).

Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.

Thee are some codes as to what materials can be used. I doubt your job will
be better.

We're waiting to hear the results though. Bill should have taken his
"first" hot shower hours ago.

I don't expect to replace appliances (vacuum cleaner, dish washer,
stove, refrigerator, washer, dryer, toaster, etc) until they are �in
need of repair. �It's at that point when I typically determine if its
cost effective to replace or repair (typically it's best to toss at that
point). �I also wait for light bulbs to burn out, etc. � My three lawn
mowers each last about 15 years... till they died.

What other items do you replace on a regular basis?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have repaired machines my entire life, i am 51 my vans are mid 90s
but try to maintain them I dont buy new vehicles. I prefer to fix non
critical appliances

mostly i have 2 of everything so when one breaks i use the back up.

2 washers, 2 dryers, 2 vans, 2 lawn mowers, spare tools, spare
everything. if it werent for space i would have 2 hot water tanks, and
2 dishwashers

my basement where the hot water tank lives is my shop for my business,
i sell and service office equiptement.

so i really dont want a basement full of water even a foot would be
bad, and the moisture ruin inventory.

having had a hot water tank fail on christmas eve, in a snow storm
with family coming to stay i would much prefer to replace a tank early
in the morning on a spring day

warm dry comfy. no stress.

now lets look at the economics of tank replacement

DIY a 400 buck tank thats replaced in 8 years nets a cost of 50 bucks
a year.

thats less than a decent candy bar a week...........

plus the new tank has better efficency and doesnt boil when heating.
my current tank has started doing that......... wife doesnt like the
noise, it can be heard upstairs.

did you know a person who buys a brand new mid priced car every 5
years, in a lifetime spends about $250,000 just on new car purchase.

now does my 400 buck purchase compare?

incidently we have some tough to get at light fixtures here, when one
bulb burns out i replace them all. I prefer all fixtures to have
multiple bulbs, when one burns out theres still enough light to see

This has been a very informative thread. I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. The first one in our home was replaced after just 8 years
(previous owner). As someone pointed out, now is probably a good time to
start researching a replacement.


All this talk about water heaters and I came home today to find I had no hot
water. Went out to the garage and found a puddle around the heater and the
flame was out. Fortunately it seems this time it was just a leaking joint on
the flex pipe but it's a reminder that I need to start looking at
replacements.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:25:04 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.

Hi everyone,

Please take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day effort replacing the water heater.
We had to make a whole bunch of compromises we had not planned on!
Would our final work pass your inspection?
Why or why not (let's learn from this)?

By the way, just as you guys predicted:
- The drain valve snapped off while the tank was full of hot water
- The plumbing was corroded and broke in multiple places
- The water heater (still full of hot water) tipped over on us
- The anode had dissolved away to the bare steel rod
- The galvanized plumbing was almost completely clogged with rust
- The plumbing retrofit for the much larger heater was difficult
- The dialectric fittings and check valves were useless
etc.

And, a few things you guys didn't predict:
- We found an ancient machete hidden behind the water heater!
- Trying to save the box to put the old heater in isn't worth it
- The cold water leaked due to thread corrosion even tightly screwed on
- Hot water leaked back into the heater when the cold water was shut
- The overflow pipe wasn't installed yet due to a question for you
- We loosened sandy sediment which clogged our showerheads
etc.

Now that we're done, we have MORE QUESTIONS to ask (and hopefully we can
all get the answers together).

Take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill

On Feb 17, 8:54Â*pm, " wrote:
On Feb 17, 7:36�pm, clams_casino wrote:





Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:04:53 -0500, clams_casino wrote:

Do get it right. � A family recently died of carbon monoxide poisoning

Hi clams,

We *are* doing it right. That's why I'm here in the first place. To get it
right. I do appreciate the help. From everyone. And, I'll give back by
posting the tutorial for others like us to follow.

In fact, we feel we're possibly doing it *better* than a plumber might, at
least in terms of raw material. It seems to us (unsubstantiated opinion)
that a plumber might tend to maximize his *time* and not necessarily the
quality of the materials - unless specifically asked to by the homeowner
(who must correspondingly be willing to pay for the extra parts cost and
labor).

Bill is in his final shower as we speak. The gas is off.

He can sing in that steaming hot shower for as long as he likes and, for
once, I won't be on his back about wasting the hot water!

Donna

This has been a very informative thread. � I didn't appreciate that our
15-year old water heater (61 gallon - State / 0.55 ER) is likely on
borrowed time. � The first one in our home was replaced after just 8
years (previous owner). � As someone pointed out, now is probably a good
time to start researching a replacement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

i take a different view, after having one start leaking with house
guests coming right before christmas.

i replace mine at the time of my choosing, on my schedule.

peace of mind and lack of hassles plus no worry about water leak
damage, and can shop around for best deal, and get better efficency
from new tank and i went larger with a high output tank.

do you wait for everything you own to totally quit before replacing?

Generally, yes.


hot water tanks are low cost.

my current one is 7 years old. its on borrowed time

I guess I take a different tack; probably has to do with my upbringing
(whole family is from rural PA, very, um, frugal...) I figure
inspecting the anode regularly will tell me what I need to know about
the tank condition and I can make an informed decision from there.

You may recall from my previous posts that I just replaced the anodes
back in November on two ancient (80's) water heaters in my basement;
it turns out that they were both still in good shape despite the solar
one appearing to be near failure - the outside shell is very rusty and
looking to be in poor condition but the anode was still intact enough
that it appears it was never unprotected on the inside. Also I had
thought that the solar one was leaking intermittently but it now
appears that that was due to dry rotted condensate drain lines in the
furnace and the slope of the floor (solar HWH is located near a low
spot) repairing the furnace drain seems to have fixed the issue.

Basically, when you live in an area like I do where the housing costs
are so high, you can't afford to simply replace stuff on a schedule,
you replace it when it really needs to be replaced. I'll continue
flushing and inspecting the anode; when this anode is gone (if I'm
still living in the same place) then maybe I'll consider replacing the
tank, as it'll be 30-40 years old by then (and hopefully I'll be
making enough money by then that the mortgage won't be eating up half
my take-home every month)

Yes, I "shop" for light fixtures and other supplies in the "free"
section of Craigslist as well, and just bought a couple paneled doors
for $12 each from the home salvage place up in Edmonton.

I'd like to think that when it does come time for me to move out of
this house, despite the fact that I'm replacing very little, that the
new owners will still find far fewer problems than I did upon moving
in simply because I do address problems as they arise, and I do
everything I can myself so I know it's done right.

nate

(officially licensed and certified cheap b*****d)

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:28:15 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
can't see your photos at work, but definitely brush a soapy water
solution over all gas connections and check for bubbles.

Hi Nate,
Yes, I personally did the check for natural-gas leaks.

Bill slathered on the TPE cream, taking care to leave the last two threads
bare, and we didn't see any bubbles with a solution of Dawn and water
brushed on with a toothbrush.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276731/

One minor question we had for the natural gas line was whether or not to
kink the gas hose in an S-shaped curve to trap sediments before they enter
the thermostat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

Do you arrange the gas hose in any particular manner?

Also, does anyone know the significance of the red aluminum ring around the
gas hose? Does it have any meaning?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250275/

Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

On Feb 18, 2:51*am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:25:04 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
Take extra care to get the vent right, a gas leak you'll smell, a
water leak you'll see, but an exhaust leak will just kill you.

Hi everyone,

Please take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day effort replacing the water heater.
We had to make a whole bunch of compromises we had not planned on!
Would our final work pass your inspection?
Why or why not (let's learn from this)?

By the way, just as you guys predicted:
- The drain valve snapped off while the tank was full of hot water
- The plumbing was corroded and broke in multiple places
- The water heater (still full of hot water) tipped over on us
- The anode had dissolved away to the bare steel rod
- The galvanized plumbing was almost completely clogged with rust
- The plumbing retrofit for the much larger heater was difficult
- The dialectric fittings and check valves were useless
etc.

And, a few things you guys didn't predict:
- We found an ancient machete hidden behind the water heater!
- Trying to save the box to put the old heater in isn't worth it
- The cold water leaked due to thread corrosion even tightly screwed on
- Hot water leaked back into the heater when the cold water was shut
- The overflow pipe wasn't installed yet due to a question for you
- We loosened sandy sediment which clogged our showerheads
etc.

Now that we're done, we have MORE QUESTIONS to ask (and hopefully we can
all get the answers together).

Take a look at the photos uploaded earlier today:http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/

Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill

can't see your photos at work, but definitely brush a soapy water
solution over all gas connections and check for bubbles.

nate

all your galvanized needs replaced, when corroded that bad soon it
will leak

on energy costs, this heater was designed after the energy guide label
specs were created, thats why its energy use is under the lowest.

the intricate baffels are there to help efficency.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:55:46 -0800 (PST), wrote:
the intricate baffels are there to help efficency.

Hi Hallerb,

That was another question we had in the queue!

1. What exactly do these intricate baffles actually do?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2040/...b7542339_m.jpg

I'm guessing they slow down the heated air so that it has more time to heat
up the water by passive convection. Is that true?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276725/

Donna

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 05:29:11 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
I just replaced the anodes ... on two ancient (80's) water heaters
it turns out that they were both still in good shape

Hi Nate,

That brings up the first (of many) questions that arose when we replaced
our hot water heater (with your help) yesterday ...

1. I agree, while replacing the altruistic anode is a "good thing" ...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/...c145cf.jpg?v=0

The problem I found is ...

2. Even Superman couldn't would have a tough time removing mine ...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2033/...b7d618.jpg?v=0

Given it took a pipe wrench plus a huge cheater bar to remove the anode
with the water heater removed and blocked on the ground ... and given that
any in-place plumbing and vent ducts would have severely hampered access
.... and given that a water heater isn't rigidly "mounted" ... I wonder ...

Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when needed?

Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:55:46 -0800 (PST), wrote:
on energy costs, this heater was designed after the energy guide label
specs were created, thats why its energy use is under the lowest.

Interesting!

The Energy Guide label for this 0.63 Energy Factor water heater:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085480/

Says the thermal energy factor comparison is:
This model uses 238 therms per year.
Uses least energy: 242 therms
Uses most energy: 272 therms
Only models with FHRs of 87 to 99 gallons are used in this scale.
This model's estimated yearly operating cost is: $216 dollars
Based on a 2004 US Government national average cost of 0.9100 per therm.
(41,045 btu/0.63)($0.9100/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $216/year

However, my estimated thermal energy factor is closer to:
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

So, the Energy Guide label is off on energy costs by a whopping 75 percent!
(I think.)

Donna
PS: I never know whether the best calculation is this way or that?
$216 / $288 * 100 = 75%
or
$288 / $216 * 100 = 133%

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message

Let's learn from this half-day job.
Would this hot water heater R&R pass your inspection?
Why or why not?

Donna & Bill

I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
places.

From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job. Meantime, start thinking about
replacing all of that galvanized pip with either copper or pex.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:30:03 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
I appears that you re-used the flex gas line. That should be replaced with
any new installation and would be a code violation in most, if not all,
places.

Hi Edwin,

Thank you! That was another of my questions!
(strangely I have more questions after the job than before).

Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

So, purely for safety reasons, we didn't replace the gas line (using the
store logic).

But, we would have been happy to replace the gas line as the costs for
quality parts is miniscule in this job, given the major cost for the heater
itself.

Where do I look up our local code requirements anyway?
I went to our town site and saw they have an office but nothing on the web.

Donna

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:54:10 -0800 (PST), wrote:

all your galvanized needs replaced, when corroded that bad soon it
will leak

Hi Hallerb,

It was disgusting how corroded the *inside* of the galvanized pipes were!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/

We had to reuse the 3/4 inch galvanized elbows.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

Why? Because we just couldn't get them off no matter how much we twisted!

We had to put Jack's stands against the wall just to hold it back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268509/

The horizontal pipe kept bending and twisting with every application of
force.

Three questions came up that we'd like to ask:

1. We could easily twist the horizontal galvanized pipe; but how would we
replace this corroded pipe since it apparently connects to an elbow
*inside* the wall?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

2. Could/should we have just hack sawed the horizontal galvanized pipe and
rethreaded somehow (it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
threads meet the new steel nipple)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/

3. Is our cold water shut off valve too close to the hot vent flue for
safety?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/...86c459d6_m.jpg

Please advise as this job brought up more questions than answers!
Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:50:04 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

(it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
threads meet the new steel nipple)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/

Most likely you didn't crank it in enough...
If the leak doesn't stop, you'll have to redo that.

I watched Bill crank it like crazy so it's certainly tight enough!

We think the threads on the 50-year old galvanized steel elbow are clogged
up and that's what is causing the slow dribble out of the cold water inlet
pipe.

We now have the confidence to tackle this job - we just were unsure how to
remove the elbow or cut the pipe or remove the pipe from the wall.

install the valve with lever away from the vent, 90
degrees rotated from where it is.
We'll do that when we figure out how to fix the slight leak above.

See how hot it gets after a heater run.
It's cold.

Galvanized pipes can easily last 50 years.
Our house was built in 1958!

Somebody mentioned the gas flex you used
We feel confident in swapping out the gas flex if that's what we should do.
Do others feel we must do that (we don't mind as parts costs are
miniscule).

We just want to do the job right.

Thanks for the advice.
One thing that is still undone is the overflow vent (we'll ask separately).

Donna

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message

Can anyone really expect to remove the anode when it needs inspection?
Why don't they provide TWO HOLES so you can add a second anode when
needed?

! Cost
2 How would you know if a new one is needed if you cant get the first one
out?
3 That plug would not come out either after years of use

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:18:04 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
If you try to remove it next year, you should be able to do it

Good point. We should remove the anode every year so that it *can* be
removed when it comes time to replace it with a similarly sized one.

One thing we still need to do is attach the drainage pipe from the
Temperature & Pressure valve to near the floor in case of an overflow.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

Is the drain pipe mandatory (can we just leave it off)?

It seems to me a drain pipe *should* be mandatory because you don't want
hot water spewing forth at eye level. However, due to configuration
changes, even with the taller tank, the old drainage tube is too long and
too close to the tank so we can't just screw the old one in. We have to
modify it somehow to make it shorter and move it away from the wood base.

QUESTION:
How many inches ABOVE the garage floor should it end?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/...c9df0f48_m.jpg

If we can end ABOVE the 18 inch wooden platform, that would be easier.
If we have to end six or so inches above the garage cement floor, that
would necessitate an elbow to get past the wooden base but it seems a
horizontal line can clog causing a safety hazard.

I googled but did not find any specs as to HOW MANY INCHES above either the
floor or better yet, the wooden platform, that a drain pipe must terminate.

Can someone recommend a solution?

Thanks
Donna

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:30:03 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
From the photo, it looks as though you used on SS line and one copper line.
If so, that is a sure sign of a hack job.

Hi Edwin,

Again, thanks for the review of the job!

We had to make many compromises we felt a plumber would make also!
(tell us if they would have done this differently after reading why below)

The reason for the flex copper cold water input is that there wasn't room
for anything else. Given the shortest copper flex line we could find, we
couldn't fit the dialectric unions. The shortest stainless steel lines we
could find at multiple stores wouldn't bend enough.

We had to mate the cold water inlet's galvanized steel elbow to a steel
nipple to a bronze ball valve to the copper flex line to the dialectric
nipple screwed into the inlet of teh steel tank.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079134/

On the hot water side, likewise, there wasn't room for the copper flex plus
two dialectric unions, but at least we could mate steel directly to steel
by going from the galvanized steel elbow to a steel nipple to the steel
pipe to the dialectric nipple screwed into the steel tank.

KEY QUESTION: Would a plumber have done it differently? How?

MINOR QUESTION: Why do some stainless steel lines have brass fittings yet
they all say they are for mating steel to steel?

Donna

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:30:03 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Start thinking about replacing all of that galvanized pipe
with either copper or pex.

Hi Edwin,

Given how corroded the steel pipes were (I can't believe my kids drank
water from those pipes!), maybe we'll try to replace all our plumbing when
the weather warms up (Bill is on the roof right now doing the shingles
which blew off in the last storm).

It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.

But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
(Do we have to rip the walls apart?)

And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
(Do we have to break open the driveway?)

Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa nd
I can do together?

Donna

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:45:12 GMT, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer
Coordinator" wrote:

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:54:10 -0800 (PST), wrote:

all your galvanized needs replaced, when corroded that bad soon it
will leak

Hi Hallerb,

It was disgusting how corroded the *inside* of the galvanized pipes were!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/

That's not corrosion. It's mineral scale. Stone, basically.

We had to reuse the 3/4 inch galvanized elbows.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

Why? Because we just couldn't get them off no matter how much we twisted!

We had to put Jack's stands against the wall just to hold it back.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268509/

The horizontal pipe kept bending and twisting with every application of
force.

An 18" or 24"pipe wrench taking a bite on that pipe would have
prevented that. You need to see how a plumber does it. Those ells
would come off easily enough. Don't need jackstands, though that was
creative, I must say. Good for you. You have initiative.
BTW, older pipes were sometimes assembled with a hardening dope.
Whacking the joint repeatedly with a hammer usually breaks the bond.

Three questions came up that we'd like to ask:

1. We could easily twist the horizontal galvanized pipe; but how would we
replace this corroded pipe since it apparently connects to an elbow
*inside* the wall?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273268515/

If the flow is ok, don't worry about it. You never saw inside that
pipe, and it may very well be fairly unrestricted. Scale forms more
at fittings, where the water changes direction, or becomes turbulent.
If the pipe connects to an ell inside the wall, you would have to
knock out the wall to get a bite on the ell with a wrench to prevent
the possibility of breaking a pipe. If the pipe goes into a tee (for
example the run continues to feed elsewhere) you can probably just
twist it out. Just remember that one has to continue replacing if
anything screws up.

2. Could/should we have just hack sawed the horizontal galvanized pipe and
rethreaded somehow (it's leaking very slightly from where the corroded
threads meet the new steel nipple)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262551/

Most likely you didn't crank it in enough, or the ell threads were
fouled with hardened dope. That's a good reason to replace ells.
OTOH the external pipe threads can often be cleaned of old dope and
inserted further than before into the fitting, making up for any
corrosion.
If the leak doesn't stop, you'll have to redo that. There may be
remedies for the leak, but I can't recommend any.

3. Is our cold water shut off valve too close to the hot vent flue for
safety?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/...86c459d6_m.jpg

Still don't know why you used a lever valve. The least you could have
done was to install the valve with lever away from the vent, 90
degrees rotated from where it is.
I doubt it's an issue though, unless the valve has plastic that can
melt. See how hot it gets after a heater run.

Please advise as this job brought up more questions than answers!
Donna
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

Except for the leak, you did fine. Don't overthink it. Galvanized
pipes can easily last 50 years. The pipes in my house are that old
and in fine shape, but perhaps restricted a bit with scale.
If you decide to replace them with copper or PEX, you can no doubt do
that yourself, since you are willing to study how. It will be tougher
than a water heater though.
Somebody mentioned the gas flex you used, and you should be absolutely
certain you've done that safely. I have used only black pipe for gas,
so don't know about the flex fittings, except I use the new, certified
ones when I replace a range. There was a batch of faulty gas flex
hoses installed on ranges that caused some explosions/deaths, so check
into that too.

--Vic

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:26:44 -0500, Meat Plow wrote:
I can't believe this thread is still going after what three weeks?

Hi Meat Plow,

There are more questions now, after having done the job, than there were in
the beginning, even though I read a dozen how to's, I posted my
step-by-step guide, I read a half-dozen PDFs on specifications, etc.

It seems all the required information is not in any one place (yet).

For example, unanswered questions which remain a

Q1: Can we terminate the drain pipe above the wooden base (easier) or must
we terminate (how many) inches above the cement floor (necessitating a
short elbowed horizontal run)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

Q2: Is it a code requirement to replace the incoming yellow gas lines?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

Q3: Since the old drain valve (predictably) snapped in half (causing most
of the installation problems we saw),
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262535/
and since Sears personnel said the drain valve can not be removed, do you
really remove and replace the new drain valve with a brass one (we opted
not because the store said it was unremovable)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262545/

Q5: How *tight* should the earthquake straps be (the originals were loose)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250269/

Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2275029488/

Q7: Must we use a sheet-metal screw or is hand tight (it's very tight) good
enough for the vent flue?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085488/

Donna

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:26:18 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
3 That plug would not come out either after years of use

Hi Edwin,

Good point! It's almost impossible to remove the sacrificial anode!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085498/

Another question we had was whether or not to buy a new anode TODAY so that
we'd have it in stock.

Is it hard to find a new anode for any particular water heater, years after
it's built?

I would guess the length is all that really matters (shorter than the tank)
and not necessarily the specific model of the water heater per se.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079124/

Do most people just buy a replacement anode by length?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273991351/

Donna

On Feb 18, 11:58*am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:26:18 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
3 *That plug would not come out either after years of use

Hi Edwin,

Good point! It's almost impossible to remove the sacrificial anode!http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085498/

If you try to remove it next year, you should be able to do it
easily. It might be a two person job, but even on my 20-year old old
water heater I could do it. I did need an appropriately sized socket
(I think 1-1/16" or 1-1/8"? I forget) a heavy 3/4" drive breaker bar
and a 36" long "cheater pipe," but it came out. The second person is
to hold the tank while you're reefing on it, and it helps to leave the
tank mostly full of water to add weight (but make sure that the water
is below the level of the T&P valve, so it doesn't shoot out when you
finally remove the anode.) I did have some concerns about cracking
the bung off the tank, but I figured it was one of those things, if it
broke it needed to be replaced anyway. I got lucky and it didn't. A
new tank should not have this issue.

Putting some pipe dope or pipe tape on the anode's threads will help
keep it from corroding so between that and R&Ring it every year it
shouldn't be a major issue. The dope/tape will not cause any problems
with nonconductivity, enough of the threads will bite through the dope/
tape to provide a solid electrical connection.


Another question we had was whether or not to buy a new anode TODAY so that
we'd have it in stock.

Is it hard to find a new anode for any particular water heater, years after
it's built?


Nope, there are only a couple basic styles. I wouldn't worry about it
until it shows signs of getting close to the wire.

I would guess the length is all that really matters (shorter than the tank)
and not necessarily the specific model of the water heater per se.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274079124/

Do most people just buy a replacement anode by length?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273991351/

Donna

yes. There are two considerations - whether you have a hex head or
combo style anode and whether or not you have restricted overhead
space. If you have enough room to pull the anode completely out
without bending it you can use a standard one. If you don't you will
need to buy a slightly more expensive segmented one (basically just a
standard anode turned down every foot or so to allow it to be bent and
straightened) I bought mine from waterheaterrescue.com simply because
the only other source I could find for magnesium replacement anodes
was direct from Rheem and WHR had a better price.

nate

Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

So, purely for safety reasons, we didn't replace the gas line (using the
store logic).




You don't replace the black iron gas line, but you want to replace the
stainless flex whenever you replace the appliance.

Given how corroded the steel pipes were (I can't believe my kids drank
water from those pipes!), maybe we'll try to replace all our plumbing when
the weather warms up (Bill is on the roof right now doing the shingles
which blew off in the last storm).

It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.

But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
(Do we have to rip the walls apart?)

And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
(Do we have to break open the driveway?)

Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa
nd
I can do together?



Don't forget that all that crud in the pipes was in the water to begin with,
it's gross looking, but not harmful.

Replacing the pipes is not difficult in itself, however depending on the
design and layout of the house it can be a major project to get to all the
pipes. I hate crawling around in crawl spaces, and you'll almost certainly
have to cut open some walls. If you have a full basement it will be
considerably easier.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message
Looking at the nicely packaged yellow gas lines, we asked EVERYONE in the
stores if we should replace and they all (multiple stores) said nobody
replaces the gas line. They said leave it so we don't introduce a leak.

The problem with asking at the store is the average worker there knows very
little. Flex lines used to be against code in some places, then there were
required for earthquake prone locations. A call to the gas inspector will
clarify what you need. Water heaters are better than dryers, but years of
constant flex and vibration can cause cracks in the joiunts of flex lines.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message


KEY QUESTION: Would a plumber have done it differently? How?


Plumber would have used some copper fittings and soldered the joints. He
can get exactly what is needed that way.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message

It seems like an easy job for the piping under the crawl space.

But it seems difficult for the piping hidden in the wall.
(Do we have to rip the walls apart?)

And the pipes under the driveway to the main water meter.
(Do we have to break open the driveway?)

Is replacing the galvanized pipes with copper a do-it-yourself job Billa
nd
I can do together?

Donna

The problem with copper is getting it trough wall. Pex, OTOH, is much
easier to get through and with the proper tools, easier to work with.

There are ways of getting under the driveway, but you'd have to either rent
the equipment or call a plumber for that portion. Check what was used for
the main. Many years ago (mostly in the 1940's) lead pipe was common.

On Feb 18, 11:55*am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:26:44 -0500, Meat Plow wrote:
I can't believe this thread is still going after what three weeks?

Hi Meat Plow,

There are more questions now, after having done the job, than there were in
the beginning, even though I read a dozen how to's, I posted my
step-by-step guide, I read a half-dozen PDFs on specifications, etc.

It seems all the required information is not in any one place (yet).

For example, unanswered questions which remain a

Q1: Can we terminate the drain pipe above the wooden base (easier) or must
we terminate (how many) inches above the cement floor (necessitating a
short elbowed horizontal run)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274211119/

I think it needs to be *at least* 6 inches above the floor, you don't
want it to be too high though in case you are in the room when it goes
off. I assume you have a floor drain in this room?


Q2: Is it a code requirement to replace the incoming yellow gas lines?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273276741/

I believe every WH manufacturer recommends replacing the flex line if
the heater is replaced (that is if a flex line is used.)

Q3: Since the old drain valve (predictably) snapped in half (causing most
of the installation problems we saw),http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262535/
and since Sears personnel said the drain valve can not be removed, do you
really remove and replace the new drain valve with a brass one (we opted
not because the store said it was unremovable)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273262545/

I would. Can you at least look and see if the valve looks like it is
a standard 3/4" pipe thread? If so I'd replace it. Like I mentioned
earlier, I just used a 3/4" dielectric nipple, a 3/4" NPT ball valve,
a 3/4" male NPT to male garden hose adapter, and a brass garden hose
cap to make my own drain valves (I actually have three water heaters
on my property, two in the house and one in the garage...)

I have yet to see a drain valve for a water heater that didn't screw
into the tank with a 3/4" pipe thread. I imagine the Sears rep just
told you it wasn't replaceable to keep you from messing with it.

Q5: How *tight* should the earthquake straps be (the originals were loose)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250269/

don't know, they apparently aren't required anywhere I've lived.


Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2275029488/

Your installation instructions should have that info.

Q7: Must we use a sheet-metal screw or is hand tight (it's very tight) good
enough for the vent flue?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2274085488/

I'd screw it together, at least two screws per joint. Before you do
that though, check with a match to make sure it's drafting properly -
light a match and hold it in the gap between the top of the water
heater and the flue vent while the heater is burning. The flame
should go straight up or slightly in towards the center of the vent -
NEVER away from the center of the vent. If it does it is backdrafting
and whatever condition is causing that needs to be corrected.

good luck

nate

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:55:41 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
I think it needs to be *at least* 6 inches above the floor, you don't
want it to be too high though in case you are in the room when it goes
off. I assume you have a floor drain in this room?

Hi Nate,
It's a garage that drains down the driveway.

This reference also says "at least" six inches off the floor.
http://www.high-performance-hvac.com...ance-tips.html

This one says "within" six inches of the floor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumb...er_heater.html

I'm going to tell Bill to decide to put it at the 18 inch mark above the
elevated step; otherwise it would need a horizontal length which would be
bad.

Thanks,
Donna

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:55:41 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
I have yet to see a drain valve for a water heater that didn't screw
into the tank with a 3/4" pipe thread. I imagine the Sears rep just
told you it wasn't replaceable to keep you from messing with it.

Or he didn't know and he was just hazarding a guess disguised as fact.\
This reference says they can be replaced with a ball valve.
http://www.high-performance-hvac.com...ance-tips.html


Q6: How much space should be left between the walls and the heater?
Your installation instructions should have that info.

THey say six inches but the old one was less than half that.