On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:17:25 -0800 (PST), Nexus7 wrote:

however, heaters of different tank sizes are sold in the real world
too, and no one is going to push say a 200 gal heater for home use; so
as I had mentioned earlier, using just the tank and burner sizes (and
ER to a lesser extent, since they aren't that different unless you pay
a heck of a lot more) is sufficient.

Hi Nexus,
I understand your point and it is sound advice to buy "roughly" by tank and
burner size and ER. For me, that correlates to FHR and ER.

This seemingly well thought out discussion I found in my water heater
research seems to have similarly practical advice (e.g., it says all water
heaters of similar size & type are basically equal)
http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html

Some salient points from that article a
- Four manufacturers make almost all the water heaters
- Almost nobody flushes their tanks periodically
- Average lifespan is 13 years
- Virtually all water heaters perform similarly
- It's easy to install (2 to 4 hours in toto)

I wish someone had pointed me to that article
(http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html) as the FIRST one I read instead of
all the ones touting the patented sedimentation-prevention system, the
R-factor of the insulation, the years of warranty (worst of all meaningless
numbers)!

The good news is that, in the future, if YOUR water heater needs
replacement, you'll read this thread and know that the FIRST article I
recommend, one who went through the hoops for a day, is this one!

Good luck everyone!
Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:44:50 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a
fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the
EF calculation.

True but ... you can CALCUATE your personal situation (I'm doing it now).

READ THIS document (it's a MUST HAVE for water-heater calculations)!
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...vAttachmentLau
nch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

You'll also need your current costs per therm, e.g., read this (for me):
http://www.pge.com/tariffs
Specifically, these prices of approx $1.33/therm for gas-fired residential
water heaters in the local area:
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

Armed with those two documents and the FHR & EF ratings for your
prospective water heaters, you can do all the calculations you need to
apply to your specific situation.

I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there to make
this easier on all of us!

Donna
Note that it might not matter much as all water heaters are basically the
same according to this article (http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html).

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:30:43 -0600, HeyBub wrote:
$50 permit? Call city hall and see if a permit is required.

I called this morning and the town said I need a PLUMBING permit because
it's a gas heater. I forgot to ask the price but the installer will handle
that for me (and charge me).

I just hope there isn't the 8.5% sales tax charged on top of the permit
costs!

As Will Rogers said, thank God we don't get as much government as we pay
for!

Donna

FHR (65 to 75 gallons in an hour seem appropriate for me)
ER (I'd like to find a 0.62 or better but have NOT found any above .59)
PRICE (I have plenty of money but I don't want to waste it needlessly)
SERVICE (I want to trust that the plumber does the gas job well)
I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there

Here is the best freeware water heater FHR/ER calculator I can find:

http://www.geappliances.com/smar****...aters_form.htm

It's not even close to what we want and need by way of water-heater
calculators, but, it seems to be the best freeware out there to date.

If you can find better, please post so we all benefit!

Presumably it would ask you the basic questions that the one above asks,
but, then it would take into account the FHV and ER and the current cost
per therm. It would then take the price of your water heater into account
to tell you which is the best buy per FHV/hour and the all-important
recover period when comparing two different water heaters.

I'm sure this calculator, which millions of households could benefit from,
exists somewhere ... I just don't know where so I include the freeware
folks who seem to have a knack for finding jewels on the Internet!

Donna

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

AO SMITH they have condensing water heaters with efficencies of mid
90s.

if you call them they can give you the phone number of a local
stocking dealer, and direct vent models use outside air for
combustion, saving more energy.......

I went thru this same research some years ago,

the FHR is largely based on BTU of burner.

I went from a 40 gallon 34,000 BTU tank, to a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU
tank and about doubled the first hour rating.

because of space issues i couldnt go larger.

its served me very well

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:31:40 -0800 (PST), beecrofter wrote:

If you won't listen to your husband about waiting, why would you pay
any attention to us?

I make my own informed decisions.

I listen to anyone who has something to offer.

And, most important, I always give back more than I ask for, even taking
the pains to explain and clarify until all agree - and even supplying phone
numbers and even the sequence of buttons to press.

In addition, I ask for help to find things that don't seem to exist yet,
like a free payback calculator ... which I'm confident we'll find and then
we all can benefit.

Especially the poor schmuck who in a year or two runs into the same problem
yet benefits from all the wonderful discussions we have archived here.

Isn't that what the USENET is all about?

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:47:41 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote:

I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain
for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum

We *should* have done that but never did.
This article says almost nobody drains their tanks nowadays:
http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html
So, I don't feel too badly.

Also, Home Depot GE salespeople on the phone tried really hard to sell me
the patented little fan that stirs up the sediments.

It would be nice to find an article that scientifically looks to see if
those sediment stirrers really worked or not.

Consumer Reports was a total disapointment as they told me to buy based on
warranty - which is a marketeer's dream. I'm surprised at Consumer Reports,
but, the older (and wiser) I get, the more I realize they don't know what
they're doing. Sigh.

Dan Rather, and now Consumer Reports.
Another trusted icon bites the dust!

All I have left is you!

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:24:20 GMT, James Sweet wrote:

I pay around $1.15 per therm,
I still remember when it was ... 33 cents.

I pay around $1.33 per therm.
I'm going to do the calculations today.

I just called Sears Kenmore (actually AO SMith State Industries makes all
the Kenmore brands) asking for their highest-efficiency consumer hot water
heater models.
- Sears Kenmore Home Water Heater Department: 1-800-877-6420

Here's the summary from Sears for the 40-gallon 12/1 year water heater:
- $420/$853 #33144 FHR 81 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K,
- 58" tall, 20.5" diameter, 63.5" tall with diverter

Here's the summary from Sears for the 50-gallon 12/1 year water heater:
- $450/$885 #33154 FHR 97 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K,
- 59.5" tall, 22" diameter, 65" tall with diverter

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

I still have to do the calculations to see if the EF makes any real
difference at a cost per therm of $1.33 particularly since the "average"
water heater at HD was 0.58 or 0.59 EF, but I could special order a HD one
with 0.62 EF but I could get from Sears one with an EF of 0.63.

I wonder how much exactly it all matters ... for that ... I need to build
the calculations.

I think I have enough now - certainly more than I ever thought I needed to
know - to make a reasonable not-dumb decision on replacing my home water
heater that started leaking yesterday morning.

Please let me know if you have any calculators on the web which can COMPARE
two home water heaters given the specs we have posted in this thread!

Thanks,
Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:16:34 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
The energy factor tells you how well much of the gas is
converted into hot water. A low rating on a gas heater
means lots of therms (energy) are going up the flue.

Hi Malcolm,

I did more research. Apparently, all GE water heaters sold by HD are made
by Rheem who also makes a water heater with an EF of 0.62 but it's hard to
find in a HD store. I'm gonna try Sears at 800-877-6420.

$360 ($675 installed) GG40T06TVG/182-785 FHR=68 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs
The nearly meaningless specs are 40-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty.

$420 ($730 installed) GG50T06TVG/184-045 FHR=83 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs
The nearly meaningless specs are 50-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty.

I am trying to figure out the calculation for the payback time given the
difference between an EF of 0.59 and the EF of 0.62.

Do you think it's worth it to pay (how much) more and go to more trouble to
find a residential gas hot water heater with the EF of 0.62 (given my
current cost per therm of $1.33)?

Donna
PS I'm gonna try the math for FHR & ER payback calculations here
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...n?OpenDocument

On Mon 11 Feb 2008 15:28:47, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:17:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

We're getting closer!


It sounds like you are setting up something in your posting so that
others are invited to take part.


The nice thing about the site you recommended is it contains a
freeware payback calculator which we were missing up until now!
http://www.ho****er.com/products/payback.aspx

You guessed right the first time ~ it's not really freeware.


You enter in the cost per therm (e.g., $1.33/therm) and the gallons
per day and then it compares two models, given their cost, to
calculate how long the payback period is for the more expensive
one.

The only thing missing from this free payback calculator is the FHR
and ER calculations which it assumes because it only allows its
models to be compared.

Does anyone know of a freely available payback calculator that
allows all brands to be analyzed (i.e., it takes into account the
FHR and ER ratings which all water heaters must provide)?

We'd all benefit from your advice,
Donna

Donna, is there a freeware engineering tool for designing domestic hot
water heaters. Maybe there is one which links into a suppliers a bill
of material parts systems or their inventory system. That would be
useful for all of us.

Can you help us?

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:04:46 GMT, Franklin wrote:
Donna, is there a freeware engineering tool for designing domestic hot
water heaters. Maybe there is one which links into a suppliers a bill
of material parts systems or their inventory system. That would be
useful for all of us.

Can you help us?

Hi Franklin,

Thanks for asking for help. I did some research just for you and I think
the closest I can find to help you in a freeware section (since you are so
well known from the freeware side) is the GAMA Association of Applicance
Manufacturers web site - open and available to all.
http://www.gamanet.org

At that site, they provide links for both supplier and consumer
bill-of-material and inventory calculators, mostly for suppliers who wish
to design and deliver inventory to commercial and consumer.

For example, here's their section on product certification:
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...s?OpenDocument

Here is their section on government affairs:
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/govtaffa...s?OpenDocument

And, Franklin, here is their section on public information:
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/stats.ns...n?OpenDocument

I've run a few more searches for you and this is the best they have that I
can find to help you but I will try to see if I can write a PERL program
that does the FHV and ER calculations I need.

You can rest assured Franklin that I will post the results (if successful
and meaningful) back to the group but first, I'm asking the experts who
know much more than I do about the implications of the FHR and EF ratings
because I want the program to be correct. Don't you think that prudent?

As you know, I always help everyone I can and I always give back more than
ask for, and I summarize in the end so a newbie starts off where we left
.... so, you can rest assured, at least on the water heater topic, that I
will provide full telephone numbers, part numbers, product specifications,
prices installed, gotchas (like mandatory replacement of flex pipes and $77
plumber's inspection fees) and the like.

What else do you need Franklin?

Donna

According to Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator :
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:37:04 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:

First, don't leave it long but spend a few days doing your
homework. Do it today and you'll likely get talked into
something you'll regret.

This is what I was most worried about!
I didn't know if was going to explode or anything.
The sticker says it has a 300 psi pressure valve or something like that.
I dont' know what 300 psi looks like plastered all over my garage, but I'll
bet it isn't pretty!

A HWT tank explosion requires at least two things - the thermstat sticks
on, the overpressure valve seizes shut (and likely that you have a
non-return valve in the supply). A leak implies none of these.

An explosion is nothing to joke about. It _can_ completely demolish
a house. But that's _not_ a concern with a simple leak.

The hazard with a leak is that the leak may abruptly get bigger
and dump a lot more water a lot faster. It's probably not going
to do this any time soon, but you never know. So, don't leave
it long. You could turn off the inlet supply valve if you're away
for any protracted periods.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message
I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18
inches or so vertical.

But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in the
cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot
water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the
galvanized steel water pipes?

Donna

If you have galvanized water pipes you may run into additional cost. You may
want to consider re-plumbing the house too if that is what you have.

I wouldn't suggest that worry unless there is some problem with the existing
galvanized pipes. They last many, many years many places.

On Feb 11, 12:50*pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:24:20 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
I pay around $1.15 per therm,
I still remember when it was ... 33 cents.

I pay around $1.33 per therm.
I'm going to do the calculations today.

I just called Sears Kenmore (actually AO SMith State Industries makes all
the Kenmore brands) asking for their highest-efficiency consumer hot water
heater models.
- Sears Kenmore Home Water Heater Department: 1-800-877-6420

Here's the summary from Sears for the 40-gallon 12/1 year water heater:
- $420/$853 #33144 FHR 81 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K,
- 58" tall, 20.5" diameter, 63.5" tall with diverter

Here's the summary from Sears for the 50-gallon 12/1 year water heater:
- $450/$885 #33154 FHR 97 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K,
- 59.5" tall, 22" diameter, 65" tall with diverter

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps *$68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

I still have to do the calculations to see if the EF makes any real
difference at a cost per therm of $1.33 particularly since the "average"
water heater at HD was 0.58 or 0.59 EF, but I could special order a HD one
with 0.62 EF but I could get from Sears one with an EF of 0.63.

I wonder how much exactly it all matters ... for that ... I need to build
the calculations.

I think I have enough now - certainly more than I ever thought I needed to
know - to make a reasonable not-dumb decision on replacing my home water
heater that started leaking yesterday morning.

Please let me know if you have any calculators on the web which can COMPARE
two home water heaters given the specs we have posted in this thread!

Thanks,
Donna

If you plan on flushing the tank and inspecting the anode annually
from here on out, I would expect that the higher efficiency model will
be your better buy unless the price is *significantly* higher. Proper
maintenance could make the tank last 30 years or more, it's just that
few people actually do it.

I write the flush/inspection dates right on the side of the tank in
Sharpie, that reminds me when it's time to do it again.

nate

lets assume a 300 buck a year operating cost and it sounds like you
might save 4% on a more efficent model.

4% of $300 is $12 bucks a year, thats no biggie.

now the 90+ tanks might cut your water heating bill by nearly half,
but purchase cost will be a lot more

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:31:40 -0800 (PST), beecrofter wrote:

If you won't listen to your husband about waiting, why would you pay
any attention to us?

I make my own informed decisions.

I listen to anyone who has something to offer.

And, most important, I always give back more than I ask for, even taking
the pains to explain and clarify until all agree - and even supplying
phone
numbers and even the sequence of buttons to press.

In addition, I ask for help to find things that don't seem to exist yet,
like a free payback calculator ... which I'm confident we'll find and then
we all can benefit.

Especially the poor schmuck who in a year or two runs into the same
problem
yet benefits from all the wonderful discussions we have archived here.

Isn't that what the USENET is all about?

Donna

Donna,

Thanks so much for this thread. You are doing Great.

I did want to read more, and not sure if I saw it or not, but why the quick
Nay to the tankless design?

Did anyone provide a credible counter-argument?

(I'm just looking to get more hot water into the house. I have a 30 gallon
and 5 people. So, instead of getting a larger capacity, figured I'd just add
tankless. Of course, I'd wait until the telltale drips of a rotting tank,
like you did.... !)

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too?

Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. The flex pipe should be
replaced with every installation though.

On Feb 11, 10:53�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message



The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps �$68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too?

Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. �The flex pipe should be
replaced with every installation though.

or a local handyman, tanks are easy to change, few DIYers get permits

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:53:59 -0500, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

If you shut the water off, you do not have to shut the gas off as long as
you keep water in the tank.

Hi Edwin,

Thank you for this home water heater gas line shut off tidbit as it's not
obvious to me the heater can have no water coming in but the gas can be
left running - but it makes it easier for me so I'm glad to know that.

Doing this can cause drips at the safety valve, since water expands when heated,
and the inlet pipe may be the direction the pressure thus developed is normally
relieved.

On Feb 11, 10:53*pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message



The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps *$68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too?

Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. *The flex pipe should be
replaced with every installation though.

What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
course on the area.

wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-


The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused


What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
course on the area.


The total is in the $680 range for most options. Start with he basic $300
charge. Double what a local guy may charge. Permits can very , but probably
closer to $25 if you actually get one. I'd not get one. What about that $80
trip charge? Sears will hose you no matter what. Last place I'd go.

On Feb 12, 4:02*pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused
What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
from a local plumber? * *They all seem within reason, depending of
course on the area.

The total is in the $680 range for most options.


Install 300
Disposal 10
Permit 77
Flex Pipe 46

That's $433 plus tax for a straightforward typical job. You may be
able to get it done for less, but it's not an outrageous price either.

*Start with he basic $300
charge. Double what a local guy may charge.

$300 is a typical price here in NJ.


*Permits can very , but probably
closer to $25 if you actually get one. *I'd not get one.

Any decent licensed plumber is going to get a permit, if one is
required. It's not a customer option, either you need one or you
don't. Now $77 may be a bit high, but with the way all kinds of fees
and permit charges have been jacked up here and in many other parts of
the country, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it could cost that
much. How about the plumber's time in going and getting it?


What about that $80
trip charge? *Sears will hose you no matter what. *Last place I'd go.


What $80 trip charge? That was IF SERVICE IS REFUSED. Meaning they
make a wasted trip and are locked out, etc.

On Feb 12, 4:42�pm, wrote:
On Feb 12, 4:02�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:





wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused
What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
from a local plumber? � �They all seem within reason, depending of
course on the area.

The total is in the $680 range for most options.

Install � 300
Disposal �10
Permit � 77
Flex Pipe �46

That's $433 plus tax for a straightforward typical job. �You may be
able to get it done for less, but it's not an outrageous price either.

�Start with he basic $300

charge. Double what a local guy may charge.

$300 is a typical price here in NJ.

�Permits can very , but probably

closer to $25 if you actually get one. �I'd not get one.

Any decent licensed plumber is going to get a permit, if one is
required. �It's not a customer option, either you need one or you
don't. � Now $77 may be a bit high, but with the way all kinds of fees
and permit charges have been jacked up here and in many other parts of
the country, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it could cost that
much. �How about the plumber's time in going and getting it?

What about that $80

trip charge? �Sears will hose you no matter what. �Last place I'd go.

What $80 trip charge? � That was IF SERVICE IS REFUSED. �Meaning they
make a wasted trip and are locked out, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

sears charges a trip charge for travel.

as a matter of fact if you get your furnance with air serviced they
charge a trip charge twice, then discount the second trip charge by
half.........

sears is a rip off that deserves to go into the dustbin of retail
history

wrote in message
...
On Feb 11, 10:53 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote
in
message



The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too?

Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. The flex pipe should be
replaced with every installation though.

What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
course on the area.

It's been better than a couple of decades since I bought a new water heater,
and that one was electric, but...

the installation fee seems high - enough to double the cost of the
appliance.
sales tax on the heater? - I seem to remember that something that becomes
part of real property is sales tax exempt, if you file the proper
certificate, in NJ anyway
earthquake straps?

The one time I had to replace the water heater, I bought it from Sears - the
installed price was better than an independent plumber, the service was fast
(called in the morning, heater was in that afternoon) and the installer was
pleasant and informative. A lot can change in 20+ years, but if/when I
again need a new heater, I'll at least see what they have to say.

Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller
heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved -
take a look at the energy guide label. When I pick a 30 gallon heater and a
50 gallon heater at random and compare the estimated annual operating cost,
the difference is $7.00 a year in favor of the smaller heater. Your actual
operating costs will depend on the cost of fuel in your area and your actual
usage, but while I don't advocate getting a larger heater than you need, the
annual operating cost difference doesn't seem like a reason to get something
smaller than you could use.

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.

You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.

The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420

What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation?

Donna

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:12:51 -0500, Lou wrote:
Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller
heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved -
take a look at the energy guide

It turns out a lot of people were dead wrong on efficiency, including me.
According to the www.gamanet.org web site, operating a 40-gallon hot-water
heater is no more or less efficient than operating a 50-gallon hot-water
heater.

The only thing that matters for efficiency is the Energy Factor (EF) which
takes into account the tank size, insulation, and burner BTU.
Reference site: http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf

So, if a 40 gallon hot-water heater has an EF of, say, 0.63 while a
50-gallon hot-water heater has an equal EF of 0.63, then the costs are
EXACTLY the same to operate the two heaters!

The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and let me know if my new
conclusions that size doesn't matter has any flaws in it as I publically
state that all that matters is the EF (based on my reading ten times of
that document).

Donna

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and check my calculations

PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!

Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which
are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
intelligently.

For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)

Here are my calculations.
PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!

0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
(based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)

For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59

Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!

1. Determine your peak requirements:
20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
-----
TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating

2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)

3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
and average-use assumption.

For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
energy rates.

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)

4. Determine payback period:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)

5. Determine overall savings:
The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.

Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
more expensive yet more economical heater would be:

(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall

6. Choose the correct water heater:

Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
prices and average usage.

Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water heaters;
here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
document I refer to.

If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair FAQ
for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
those details).

Donna

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.
Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
discussion.
Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

It turns out Rick is right.

The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is
nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period.

The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for
purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take
into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even
bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons).

Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home
water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor
warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot)
provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by
Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor).

Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy by
the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless
figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the
truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm.

I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but I'm
glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with
your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost
comparisons given any two home heaters.

Thanks!

Donna

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
= X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

Hi James,
You're right.

I guess what I meant was I can "solve for X" without looking at the
sticker. I can call Sears, Home Depot, or Lowes and just ask for FHR & ER
and, from that (and my known cost/therm), I can compare two heaters side by
side:

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

But, you are right. If I were in the store, I could basically double the
annual operating costs shown and I'd be in the ballpark.

Thanks! We learned a lot in this thread, didn't we!

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:40:11 -0800 (PST), wrote:

lets assume a 300 buck a year operating cost and it sounds like you
might save 4% on a more efficent model.

Actually, the cost savings for a more efficient model is as follows:
CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)

The overall savings over the average lifetime of a home water heater is:
(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190

Donna

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.

The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in performance
but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.

For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).

Donna

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.

You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.

The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420

What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation?

Donna

Jeez.

I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks to
install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do
this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour,
it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent.

Best way to find out what a plumber charges is to call one.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message t...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to
operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.

The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in
performance
but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.

For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).

Donna

It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
= X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:

It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
= X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

Hi James,
In running your calculations, I realized the EF is NOT shown on the energy
sticker! But, it can be derived. Is my match below correct?

Given an EnergyGuide sticker that says:
"This Model Uses 240 therms/year".

I think we can calculate the ER.
Does this calculation look right to you?

240 therms/year * 1 year/41,045,000 btu * 100,000 btu/1 therm = .58

The part of the math that escapes me is why this calculation uses 1,000
times the BTUs per year than the previous calculations. Any idea?

Donna

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and check my calculations

PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!

Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which
are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
intelligently.

For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)

Here are my calculations.
PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!

0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
(based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)

For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59

Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!

1. Determine your peak requirements:
20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
-----
TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating

2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)

3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
and average-use assumption.

For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
energy rates.

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)

4. Determine payback period:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)

5. Determine overall savings:
The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.

Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
more expensive yet more economical heater would be:

(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall

6. Choose the correct water heater:

Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
prices and average usage.

Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water
heaters;
here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
document I refer to.

If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair
FAQ
for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
those details).

Donna

This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as
stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that
suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.
Justy.

On Feb 13, 6:14�am, "Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
...





On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...ntLaunch/C2AAF...

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and check my calculations

PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!

Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
referenced PDF and charts atwww.gamanet.orgexcept the energy costs which
are courtesy of PG&E athttp://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
intelligently.

For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same..
0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)

Here are my calculations.
PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!

0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
(based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)

For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59

Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!

1. Determine your peak requirements:
20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
-----
TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating

2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)

3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
and average-use assumption.

For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
energy rates.

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)

4. Determine payback period:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = �65 months (5.4 years)

5. Determine overall savings:
The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.

Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
more expensive yet more economical heater would be:

(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall

6. Choose the correct water heater:

Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
prices and average usage.

Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water
heaters;
here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
document I refer to.

If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair
FAQ
for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
those details).

Donna

This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as
stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that
suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.
Justy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other
differences are minor,

operating costs warranty etc,

over the life of the heater, they in any form arent deal breakers. a
little shorter life, a little more cost, and as the last poster
pointed out manufacturers massage numbers, to make themselves look
good. small differences dont matter much

as long as you buy a decent tank you will be satisfied.

The FHR is largely dependent on burner size. the 75K BTU tanks cost
more but in the end what everyone wants is enough hot water. no
running out please......

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote:
This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.

Hi Only Just,

I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going
by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have.

The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that these
FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose
numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...RAL_R EGISTER

Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of Cortland,
New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program
administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for
conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis
mine).

If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units as
their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers.

Donna

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:34:49 -0800 (PST), wrote:
bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other
differences are minor,

Hi Hallerb,

I agree the whole point is to buy a "large enough heater"; the only thing
I'm saying about that is "large enough" has almost nothing directly to do
with tank size. Certainly it has nothing to do with warranty.

My personal experience after spending frustrating hours on the
hot-water-heater specialists lines at Home Depot (877-467-0542), Lowes
(877-465-6937), and Sears (800-877-6420) is that these chains try very hard
to force me to buy by tank size and warranty. Extremely hard. That tells me
a lot.

You and I know very well that most water heaters are made by about 4
different companies and they are largely similar (given any class of EF and
FHR ratings).

Even knowing that, I can't tell you how many times I told the box stores I
didn't care one bit about the tank size nor the warranty ... only to have
them go right back to comparing all their heaters by tank size and
warranty, trying to sell me on the little widget that stirs up the sediment
at the bottom of the tank or the "lifetime" warranty that's really a 1-year
labor warranty and a one-shot on lifetime.

Even after I told them comparing water heaters by tank size (instead of
performance) and meaningless warranties (they're all one-year labor) was
like comparing all automobiles by engine size (instead of performance) and
the meaningless color of paint, they *still* insisted on describing their
home water heaters by tank size and warranty! That says a lot in and of
itself!

I was shocked Lowe's so-called hot water heater specialists didn't even
have the FHR for their offering (I had to call the store and have a guy
read it off the stickers!).

When someone who is selling you something is trying so very hard to make
you look elsewhere from the actual facts, that tells us a lot. Basically,
once you have sized by FHR and priced by total costs (taking into account
EF and your local cost/therm) ... the rest is irrelevant!

Thanks for helping enlighten me and put meat into this thread!
Donna

On Feb 13, 6:14*am, "Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
...





On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...ntLaunch/C2AAF...

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and check my calculations

PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!

Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
referenced PDF and charts atwww.gamanet.orgexcept the energy costs which
are courtesy of PG&E athttp://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
intelligently.

For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same..
0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)

Here are my calculations.
PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!

0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
(based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)

For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59

Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!

1. Determine your peak requirements:
20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
-----
TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating

2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)

3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
and average-use assumption.

For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
energy rates.

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)

4. Determine payback period:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = *65 months (5.4 years)

5. Determine overall savings:
The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.

Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
more expensive yet more economical heater would be:

(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall

6. Choose the correct water heater:

Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
prices and average usage.

Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water
heaters;
here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
document I refer to.

If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair
FAQ
for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
those details).

Donna

This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as
stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that
suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.
Justy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, the tests are done per EPA rules and specs by an independent
testing lab.

Now, on the other hand, those tests are performed under a certain set
of criteria based on an estimate of how the water heater would
actually be used. I would say the difference in how someone will
actually uses it in practice as compared to how it was tested, could
easily outweigh small differences in the recorded test data under the
controlled conditions. I would bet that a heater rated at an eff of .
61 vs one at .58 could easily be a wash or even upside down in actual
use. Same thing for the first hour rating.

In other words, over analyzing this whole thing is likely a waste of
time. Even the above payback analysis is flawed, because it ignores
the time value of money. Laying out $135 today and getting it back
over the next 6 years doesn't account for the fact that the money
could be earning a return. Or if you put the heater on a credit card
and pay interest, even for a short time, and the perceived savings are
gone. Take any of that into account and the difference between these
heaters shrinks.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:37 -0800 (PST), wrote:
the tests are done per EPA rules and specs by an independent
testing lab.

I agree. Intertek Testing Services is supposedly independent. If anyone has
information otherwise, please post.

In other words, over analyzing this whole thing is likely a waste of
time. Even the above payback analysis is flawed, because it ignores
the time value of money.

Very good point.

Here are the original calculations I posted for inspection:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)
e. Overall savings = (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190

How would we change these to take into account the time value of money?
As always, I'll hazard my math to see if it stands up to scrutiny.

Using the compound interest calculator here ...
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator...calculator.htm
that $135 at 5% compounded monthly over the 5.4 years payback period
actually costs $176.75 at the 65-month point.

You're right. That's a big difference! (I don't use credit cards so I won't
factor in the additional, but huge, credit-card costs if paid on
installment!)

Conversly, the annual savings over that same 65-month period is also
increased, from $25/year to $26.28 per year using the same 5% interest rate
compounded monthly.

This more accurate payback-period calculation then becomes $177 / $26 * 365
/ 30 = 83 months (6.9 years).

The overall savings now shrinks a whopping 16% from $190 when not taking
into account the time value of money, to (13 years - 6.9 years) * $26/year
= $159

Thanks for testing the math. Please let me know what you think of the new,
more realistic calculations which take into account the time value of
money.

Donna
PS Can someone in the field write a calculator to do all this math for us?