Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:12:41 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:


I wouldn't worry about that at all. you can just take it out of the
copper hard lines if you have to. (I'm assuming that you're referring
to corrugated flexible copper connectors above.)


Hi Nate,
Yes, I was referring to the corrugated flexible copper pipes connected to
the rigid galvanized steel pipes coming out of the wall near the garage
ceiling.

I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18
inches or so vertical.

But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in the
cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot
water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the
galvanized steel water pipes?

Donna

I wouldn't bother. If the installers can't deal with cutting your water
pipes shorter, you shouldn't let them install your heater (you have
galvanized water lines? how old is this house, anyway? Mine was built
in '48 and has copper.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more
even if it's the same efficiency factor?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Are you sure?

Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumb...er_energy.html

The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
kilowatt-hour of electricity".

If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

So, if I read that correctly, a 40-gallon water heater with an EF of .58
takes roughly about 2 KWH of power to heat once while a 50-gallon water
heater with the same EF would take EXACTLY the same amount of power to heat
all 50 gallons.

Can someone check my math on that web page and report back if I understand
incorrectly? If we turn off our brains, of course 40 gallons would cost
less to heat than 50 gallons; but if we think, it might not be so.

Can you help me think about this properly?
What does the Efficiency Factor say about costs for two different sized
tanks with the same efficiency factor?

Donna

Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
warranty:
$280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
$290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
$360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
$380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
$410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
$420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
$440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?



The only number that really matters to you is the capacity, get one close to
the original capacity and assuming you were happy with the performance
before, you should be with the new one. I recently replaced the water heater
in my mom's house with the last one on the list there, it was 20 bucks more
for double the warranty, seems like a no brainer. Can't advise much on the
labor cost as I've always done all that stuff myself.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message t...
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:
That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
concern, go with the first.

I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted
from
Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).

I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater
with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna


Call around and ask, there's only a few different companies that make these
things, others just stick their name on them. As far as I know, the
efficiency of gas water heaters doesn't vary much from one to the next
unless you go tankless.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
I've since given up on tankless for the retrofit costs. The labor at
Home Depot seems to be $309 to hook up the new hot water heater and
haul away the old one; plus $55 for earthquake straps; plus $50 for
permits; plus taxes of roughly 9% on the parts and service.

Earthquake straps? In the Bronx? What a rip-off. I haven't been able to find
an earthquake in that area larger than a 2.6 (roughly equivalent to closing
a drawer). You have to get to 4.0 before there's any damage that's even
noticable. (The WTC collapse registered 2.3.)

$50 permit? Call city hall and see if a permit is required.

As for charging you to haul the old one off, forget it. Just put the defunct
heater on the curb and the urban faries will scoop it up during the night
(they sell them to scrap metal places or make hinges for the doors on their
little Leprechaun houses, I forget which.).


Bite the bullet and take your lumps, the joys of being a home owner.
Here are the comparisons I can generate so far, based on what Home
Depot says at their Bronx New York Water Heater Servicing Center.

The prices below are installed but sans earthquake straps, permits, &
taxes. Note that the Home Depot water heater servicing center had no
figures for the BTUs (they said they weren't important). They mostly
pushed warranty but I did my comparison by cost per First Hour Rating.

Home Depot Water Heater Servicing Center (877-467-0542)
by price (installed), SKU, FHR, EF, BTU, volume, and warranty:
$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain
2x/year) $658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal
6-yr(drain 2x/year) $677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU
40gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF
??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning) $728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR
0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning) $783 SG50T12AVH/185-191
83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

Here are the best numbers I could find by going to the local Home
Depot. Notice the only way to get the all-important First Hour Rating
was to open each and every box which the floorperson balked at so I
don't know that or the Energy Factor.

Here is what was at the store by price, UPC, FHR, ER, BTU, volume, &
warranty:
$280, 514017, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 3yr
$290, 509501, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 36K, 40gal, 6yr
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$350, 431048, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 6yr
$360, 494272, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 6yr
$370, 551821, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 40gal, 9yr
$380, 569840, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 34K, 40gal, 6yr
$410, 431055, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 50gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
$420, 494302, 68gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 6yr
$440, 518435, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 40K, 50gal, 12yr

Do any of these choices seem most reasonable to replace my existing 65
gallon First Hour Rating, ??EF, 40 gallon, 35,000 BTU 50" tall by 18"
diameter gas-fired shelf-mounted earthquake-strapped hot water heater?

Donna

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message
I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18
inches or so vertical.

But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in
the
cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot
water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the
galvanized steel water pipes?

Donna

If you have galvanized water pipes you may run into additional cost. You
may want to consider re-plumbing the house too if that is what you have.

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 02:26:24 -0000, Gary Heston wrote:

That's mainly a function of BTUs, so the second of the two above will
be slightly better; of course, it'll burn a bit more gas. If that's a
concern, go with the first.


I'm still looking up ways to make a smart decision.
One thing I've noticed is that the efficiency factors I've been quoted from
Home Depot stink (basically 58 to 59 percent).

I called PG&E and they pointed me to a $30 rebate but only for residential
gas water heaters of an EF of 62% or greater.
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/gas_electric_storage/

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna

Rheem should have a few models that qualify, and they're a pretty common
brand. Also see if any State or Craftmaster models meet your needs;
AFAICT those three make up the vast majority of the water heater market;
many other brands are just relabels of those three. There's another one
that you can't buy direct (only sold to pros) but I can't recall the
name now.

BTW, you're getting all obsessive compulsive about this. I like you

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Feb 10, 6:29 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
The installation is $309 & it changes the warranty period in strange ways.

BTW, according to Consumer Reports, the MOST IMPORTANT figure, the "First
Hour Rating" (FHR) was MISSING at Home Depot. So was the second most
...
$350, 519005, ??gal FHR, .??EF, 38K, 40gal, 9yr
$420, 518411, ??gal FHR, .59EF, 40K, 40gal, 12yr
Do you know where I can get the FHR and EF ratings for the Home Depot water
heaters currently on sale? (I'll call the 800 number after this message.)

I'm not sure that the FHR is really all that essential. The hot water
available in the first hour is going to depend upon the following -
inlet water temp, burner BTU/hr input and efficiency, tank size,
outlet temp. Once you set a certain outlet temp (using the dial in the
front), you can get an idea of the FHR with the efficiency and
burner input. I see however that your table only has efficiency for
only 1 model, although it has burner BTU for all. I have the 9 yr 40
gal model, its efficiency rating is 0.59 per the label. I was able to
find a little more info on the net using the model number (not UPC).
The model number on mine is PG40T09AVH00. I believe the 12 yr model's
number starts with 'S'.

Oh, I just saw that you can get the efficiency and burner BTU numbers
at the HD web site. Put in your zip code, then it shows more models.

If you are getting the thing installed, and by HD, I wasn't aware you
could pick the model; they only offered me the 12 yr. IIRC, the
warranty lengths increase if they install it?

Oh, just to muddy things up a bit, I remember once I has bought and
installed the heater from HD, I had looked at the Sears site, and
found a minor advantage to buying there. I can't remember why.
However, models, etc. change quite often, so I don't think that
difference would be still valid.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!

Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.

Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to
operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to
operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
for both).

Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?

Donna

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:23:57 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:

The tank is "leaking" heat 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.
A well insulated tank will store the energy you used and
paid for. A poorly insulated tank will throw it away.

Another good point.

Does the Efficiency Factor take this heat leakage into account?
Or is the ONLY way to research the insulation thickness (which doesn't seem
to be on the energy star label).

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Donna

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:42:31 -0500, mc wrote:

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more
even if it's the same efficiency factor?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Are you sure?

Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumb...er_energy.html

The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
kilowatt-hour of electricity".

If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

Strange. Then it isn't a measure of efficiency.

I think it was MY MISTAKE to call it an efficiency factor.
It's actually an ENERGY FACTOR.
And, it seems to be independent of the capacity of the tank.
It's dependent on the "cycles".

So, it seems if a 50-gallon water heater has an EF of 0.50, then it takes
two kilowatt hours of power to "cycle" that water heater. Likewise, if a
100-gallon water heater has the same EF, then it takes the same amount of
power to "cycle" that water heater.

Now we have to figure out what a "cycle" is.
I can presume it is to heat up a stated amount of hot water, presumably the
capacity but I don't know that for sure.

If a "cycle" is the capacity, then it would actually cost LESS per gallon
for a 100 gallon water heater than a 50 gallon water heater assuming the
same Energy Factor.

Realistically, all the Home Depot water heaters have a 0.58 or 0.59 EF so
that would indicate, if my assumptions are correct, they the larger ones
(e.g., 50 or 60 gallons capacity) actually costs LESS to operate than the
smaller ones (e.g., 40 gallons capacity) for any given number of gallons
USEAGE.

Can my math possibly hold water?

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
is the same?

Donna


no larger heater costs no more to heat the same amount of water.

if you call a real plumbing store AO SMITH sells a 96% efficent
condensing hot water tank but i dont know the cost.........

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi Nate and others,
I appreciate the help.
One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the
same
efficiency?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

In article , "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:32:43 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi Nate and others,
I appreciate the help.
One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Nope.

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?

Yup.

The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
efficiency factor is the same.

The smaller heater will be cheaper to run -- but it may not
provide enough hot water when you need it.

But the difference (between 40 and 50 gal) isn't going to be
that great provided the heater has good insulation.

The energy factor tells you how well much of the gas is
converted into hot water. A low rating on a gas heater
means lots of therms (energy) are going up the flue.

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
is the same?

If your current heater is 40gal and meets your demands, I
see absolutely no reason to upgrade to a 50gal tank.

I'm in Northern CA and a 50 gal tank is just about adequate
for my home -- with 2500 sq ft, two adults and three kids.
We run a little low on hot water if everyone takes a shower
or bath in really quick succession while doing laundry.
It's a very minor problem about once a year. 99% of the
time, 50 gals is just fine.


--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

One thing that confuses me to no end is this EFFICIENCY thing.

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?


For the same water use, yes. Efficiency refers to non-electric heaters
(electrics are 100% efficient), and accounts for the heat loss up the vent pipe.
In other words, heat that doesn't heat the water.

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?


Not to heat the water, but over the lifetime, yes.

The reason I ask is I assumed they cost the same to operate but someone
said the smaller water heater will cost less to operate even if the
efficiency factor is the same.


True.

Can someone who understands this clarify if a larger heater truly costs
more to operate than a smaller volume heater even if the efficiency factor
is the same?

Although both units will use the same amount of energy to heat water, the larger
heater has a larger tank, which in turn means it has more surface exposed to the
outside. The greater the surface area, the greater the heat loss when you aren't
using water, which means the larger heater will use more energy to maintain the
hot water.

Now, if you live north of the Mason Dixon line and your water heater is inside
the house, then that isn't a total loss as you heat that escapes goes to warm
your house. It only becomes a problem when you want to run the A/C.

OTOH, if you live south of the Mason Dixon line or your water heater is in the
garage, then yes, you will pay a little more to run a 50 gal heater than a 40
gal. one. Is it significant? Look at the energy tag on the two heaters, but I
suspect the difference is less than $20/year. OTOH, you may find the larger unit
has better insulation, which may compensate.

"mc" wrote:

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
discussion. Oh wait! This is usenet...

Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

In article , "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What's really important, it seems, is the FHR and the EF.

At the risk of repeating myself... and the insulation.

Think about it. How many hours per day do you actually spend
with the hot water faucets turned on?

The tank is "leaking" heat 24 hours per day, 7 days a week.
A well insulated tank will store the energy you used and
paid for. A poorly insulated tank will throw it away.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

If both a 50 gallon and 40 gallon water heater has the same 59 percent
efficiency factor ... do they cost the SAME to heat?

Nope.

Yes they do. Basic physics says that it takes the same amount of energy to heat
the same water, regardless of the container size.


Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more even if it's the same
efficiency?

Yup.

But not because it takes more energy to heat the water, because the heat loss
from the tank is slightly higher.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message

Does anyone know where to find a 40gallon or 50gallon hot water heater
with
that efficiency rating at a major chain (sears or home depot or ???).
http://www.pge.com/res/rebates/

Donna

Why a major chain? They don't give very good service. Try a local plumber
and plumbing supply house for a better deal and usually better units.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message ...
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:10:47 -0500, mc wrote:

Or does the 50 gallon water heater actually cost more
even if it's the same efficiency factor?

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.

Are you sure?

Look at what this energy page says about the Efficiency Factor:
http://www.friendlyplumber.com/plumb...er_energy.html

The "energy factor [is the] number of cycles that can be completed w/ one
kilowatt-hour of electricity".

If that's true, then it's independent of the VOLUME of the water heater.

Strange. Then it isn't a measure of efficiency.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!

Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.

Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to
operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to
operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
for both).

Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?

Not exactly. There are two types of heat use/loss in a water heater: One is the
heat used to heat the water you are actively using. The other is to reheat the
water that's sitting in the tank all day when you aren't using it.

Both tanks will use the same amount of energy to heat the water you are using
directly. If both tanks have the same efficiency and the same insulation, the
smaller tank will lose less energy to the outside air and thus be slightly less
expensive to operate over the course of a year.

The actual difference in cost is probably not that much. Look at the estimated
annual cost of the two heaters on the yellow energy tag. They normalize for all
that. If one say $180 and the other says $200, that's a rough idea of the
difference in operating costs.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

On Feb 10, 9:38*pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

Good point ... dead capacity vs active usage!

Darn. I wish I understood this EF thing better, especially given two
identical situations where the *only* difference is the CAPACITY.

Based on what you implied, if I inferred correctly, if the USAGE was
exactly the same for two water heaters with the same EF, then the costs to
operate a 50-gallon water heater would be EXACTLY the same as the costs to
operate a 100-gallon water heater (if the Efficiency Factor were the same
for both).

Did I understand the math (and your point) correctly?

Donna

Donna:

Get a heater with the same gallons as you currently have, and as high
an efficiency rating as possible, go for at least a 5-year warranty.
Get a unit that is exactly the same outside dimensions so the piping
does not have to be changed and find a reasonably handy neighbor to
put the new tank in. It should take less than 30 minutes to do the
entire switch-out if the old and new tanks are the exact same size.
Compare prices on a cost per year of warranty coverage, I have seen a
lot of heaters that go bad within a year or so of the expiration of
the warranty, so cost per year of coverage is a good comparison
criteria. If you have the room, adding a fibre-glass water heater
cover over the new tank will improve the heat loss and thus raise the
efficiency. Don't obcess(SP?) about this, it isn't worth the time and
effort.

H. R.(Bob) Hofmann

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Are you sure?

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?
That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Donna

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What does the Efficiency Factor say about costs for two different sized
tanks with the same efficiency factor?

EF allows you to compare different heaters. It takes into account insulation and
other factors. Details he
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=13000

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:11:54 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
$783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

For the record, this reference, pointed to me by someone on this thread, is
FANTASTIC for helping a consumer figure out which gas water heater to buy!

http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...s?OpenDocument

The actual document for a gas water heater is
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

I'm reading it now to learn more.
A lot of what people said is right but a lot is wrong.
It's so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

But I'm trying!
Donna

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Are you sure?


Yes

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?

Yes.

That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:10:33 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
A lot of what people said is right but a lot is wrong.
It's so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Nobody mentioned the payback calculation yet.
I'm trying to run the calculations in the invaluable Dec. 2007 document
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Given current PG&E cost per therm in my area
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/GRS.SHTML#GRS
of between $1.21 to $1.44 per therm
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

For those calculations, does an average cost per therm in my area of $1.33
seem reasonable to you?

Donna

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

Hi Rick,
I don't wish to argue ... just to understand ... so please bear with me.

I've said a lot that is wrong (e.g., I called the EF an "efficiency"
factor) and at first I was choosing by size and warranty (which is about as
opposite of the true selection process as is possible) ... so I'm learning
from all you guys and trying to truly understand how to properly select a
real water heater out of the real selections and choices truly available
today in my area.

It seems like I'm not the only one confused as some people said to buy a
water heater by CAPACITY (which seems nearly meaningless except for overall
mechanical size reasons) instead of by FHR, for example.

The web site you recommended was better for FHR than those I tried:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=12990

As that web site CLEARLY said the FHR is the most important VOLUME number.
"To properly size a storage water heater ... use the water heater's first
hour rating (FHR). The first hour rating is the amount of hot water in
gallons the heater can supply per hour (starting with a tank full of hot
water). It depends on the tank capacity, source of heat (burner or
element), and the size of the burner or element."

So, I now know that the volume (e.g., 40 gallon or 50 gallon is a nearly
meaningless number when the actual FHR is known).

But, I'm still confused about the EF.

That same web site:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/.../mytopic=13000

Says "the energy factor (EF) indicates a water heater's overall energy
efficiency based on the amount of hot water produced per unit of fuel
consumed over a typical day. This includes ... how efficiently the heat
from the energy source is transferred to the water ... the percentage of
heat loss per hour from the stored water compared to the heat content of
the water ... [and] the loss of heat as the water circulates through a
water heater tank, and/or inlet and outlet pipes."

So, if I understand it correctly, all we need is the EF and the FHR and the
actual size (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, or 60 gallons) is meaningless
from the standpoint of how much hot water it delivers or how much it costs
to operate.

This seems so counterintuitive that no wonder a lot of people are confused,
even me. But then, like countersteering on a bicycle, sometimes you do turn
left to go right.

At the moment, it seems that the actual capacity of the tank is a nearly
meaningless number (except for dimensional reasons) - as is the warranty -
based on that web page (since both the FHR and ER already take into account
the tanks' size).

Donna

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

I thought MORE about what you wrote and you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

The insulation was suggested by someone else (not me). I agree with you,
the thickness of the insulation, in and of itself, is as meaningless as the
volume of the tank, in and of itself.

What seems meaningful isn't the warranty.
It's not the volume of the tank.
It's not the thickness of the insulation.
It's not even the total energy costs (since they make assumptions which
might not be true).

What seems meaningful is the ER and the FHR which take into account ALL
those factors (and more).

So my conclusion (open for discussion) is that what matters is:
- Get the desired FHR needed (e.g., 65 to 75 gallons is fine for me
- Get the desired ER (I wish I could find a .62 instead of .59 ERs)
- Get the right PHYSICAL SIZE (e.g., a 40-gallon tank is 50 inches tall)

Some other factors which _might_ be interesting a
- Your article said try to get an ELECTRONIC flame igniter
- The Home Depot guy tried to sell me on the maintenance-free ones
(He said they had a fan that stirred up the sediment)
- Some folks recommended "better" valves for cleaning out the sediment

Donna

For those calculations, does an average cost per therm in my area of $1.33
seem reasonable to you?



Look at your utility bill, it should say exactly what the cost per therm is,
they may call it CCF. That number sounds a little high, but then it varies
by area and the cost has multiplied by several times in the last 10-15
years. I pay around $1.15 per therm, I still remember when it was closer to
33 cents.

I had Home Depot install a new water heater. Came out a few hours
after I made the call. Also got a lifetime warranty on the heater
free. It's a GE unit and is Fine.




On Feb 10, 1:13*pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:32:59 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote:
by "bottom" if you mean "bottom of tank" then yes, it needs to be
replaced.

I read in Consumer Reports that sometimes the pressure-relief valve leaks
but that is on top and it's dry as a bone. The water is pooling in a slow
drip (I'd guess an ounce an hour or so) somewhere in the back of the bottom
of the unit. There is nothing dripping out the top where the two curly
pipes for the water seem to come in and out.

Depends on your exact situation. *There's resources online to help you
select the proper sized water heater. *Do you have any issues with
your old one? *

The current model "40HMEV" ho****er heater was fine at 40 gallons, FHR of
65, 34,000 BTUs. I can't read the Energy Efficiency (EF) rating because
it's behind the earthquake straps.

Tankless WH's have a much higher BTU/hr rating than tank
tyle and therefore use gas at a much higher rate. *You have to both
feed and exhaust it properly (kind of like hot-rodding a car.)

I think that's too complicated for me so I'm giving up quickly on the
tankless. I'll try to find a good price for a good tank installed today. I
see Home Depot is deprecated so I might have to go to Sears. I hope they do
same-day install.

Can I just throw the old one in the trash or does it have recycling toxics?

just to muddy the water a little more.............

the hotter you keep the water the greater the energy loss. often
people try to compensate for a too small tank by keeping water very
hot.

this has 2 bad effects, greater standby losses, so operating costs are
higher.

plus the higher temperature is harder on the tank, leading to a
shorter overall life.

now put a llarger tank in such a situation and the operating costs can
actually be less for a larger tank if you turn down its temperature

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:19:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I had Home Depot install a new water heater. Came out a few hours
after I made the call. Also got a lifetime warranty on the heater
free. It's a GE unit and is Fine.

I don't want to burst anyone's bubble but realize that it's a ONE TIME
lifetime warranty that Home Depot offers! That's fine as long as you
realize it won't be the last water heater you'll ever replace.

For example, say that, in five years, the first water heater goes kaput.
They will come out and replace it (if they installed it - otherwise you
have to bring it to them - soaking wet in the back seat of your Lexus) ...
but ... that's it!

Your lifetime is up. They will NOT replace the second water heater if it
goes out, say, in another five years.

This isn't to say that the first water heater didn't have a lifetime
warranty; it's just to remonstrate that the lifetimes is a one-shot deal.

Just to clarify,
Donna

In article , wrote:

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

It depends on your usage. EF assumes typical usage patterns,
whatever that is.

If your usage is above typical, go for the better burner.
If your usage is below typical, go for the better insulation.

EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a
fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the
EF calculation.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donna,

I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain
for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum in my
gas HWH tank. I am fortunate enough to have a floor drain there in my
basement so this is fairly easy to do.

Also, if you can find a tank with the exact same dimension (Height x Width)
and that has the gas inlet, exhaust flue, cold water inlet, and hot water
outlet all located in exactly the same position/heights (or as near as
possible), then it makes the installation much simpler.

I also agree with the suggestion of installing the fiberglass "blanket"
insulation regardless of which model you choose to make it as efficient as
possible.

Good luck!

Bob

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in
message . ..
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

- The Home Depot guy tried to sell me on the maintenance-free ones
(He said they had a fan that stirred up the sediment)
- Some folks recommended "better" valves for cleaning out the sediment

Donna

The good news is that, in the future, if YOUR water heater needs
replacement, you'll read this thread and know that the FIRST article I
recommend, one who went through the hoops for a day, is this one!

BTW, this was meant for the newbie (like I am) who researches their water
heater, not Nexus (who already knows his stuff).

The hope is that we pump enough real-world useful information into this
thread so that the archives are available to us and others in the future.

Otherwise, the next person will be duped into buying a water heater by tank
size and warranty and sedimention patents - which is just what the
manufacturers want you to do.

It seems they don't want you concentrating on the "real" items that matter,
which seem more and more to boil down to the calculations inherent in the
FHR and ER numbers which I'm struggling through now.

What it seems to boil down to, for me, is to buy by:
- FHR (65 to 75 gallons in an hour seem appropriate for me)
- ER (I'd really like to get a 0.62 or better but have NOT found any yet)
- PRICE (I have plenty of money but I don't want to waste it needlessly)
- SERVICE (I want to trust that the plumber does the job well)

Donna

On Feb 10, 11:43*pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote:
At the moment, it seems that the actual capacity of the tank is a nearly
meaningless number (except for dimensional reasons) - as is the warranty -
based on that web page (since both the FHR and ER already take into account
the tanks' size).

Depends on how you look at it. The tank size is a basic number. It
won't change, the tank is what it is. The FHR is a number calculated
with certain assumptions. It may be that these assumptions are not
applicable to you, but since most consumer heaters are rated for the
real world, FHR is meaningful to most people. By the same token
however, heaters of different tank sizes are sold in the real world
too, and no one is going to push say a 200 gal heater for home use; so
as I had mentioned earlier, using just the tank and burner sizes (and
ER to a lesser extent, since they aren't that different unless you pay
a heck of a lot more) is sufficient.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:17:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html

We're getting closer!

The nice thing about the site you recommended is it contains a freeware
payback calculator which we were missing up until now!

http://www.ho****er.com/products/payback.aspx

You enter in the cost per therm (e.g., $1.33/therm) and the gallons per day
and then it compares two models, given their cost, to calculate how long
the payback period is for the more expensive one.

The only thing missing from this free payback calculator is the FHR and ER
calculations which it assumes because it only allows its models to be
compared.

Does anyone know of a freely available payback calculator that allows all
brands to be analyzed (i.e., it takes into account the FHR and ER ratings
which all water heaters must provide)?

We'd all benefit from your advice,
Donna

If you won't listen to your husband about waiting, why would you pay
any attention to us?