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#161
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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#162
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Lou wrote:
snip And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid for also. According to http://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.html the median wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. Doesn't sound like a way to get rich quick. The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay ancillary personnel. A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to the town office and got the permit yourself? A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters littering the countryside. Also, access is a serious issue in many structures; and this applies equally to both removal and installation. I could easily replace the unit in my basement; but I once had a shop where the heater was mounted in the attic. That one would have required a couple of guys for a couple of hours to replace--involving ropes & pulleys, not to mention a significant amount of risk--in addition to the normal procedures. jak |
#163
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 15, 1:17�pm, jakdedert wrote:
Lou wrote: snip And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid for also. According tohttp://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.htmlthe median wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. �Assuming a 40 hour work week for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. �Doesn't sound like a way to get rich quick. The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are independent contractors. �Most work for larger concerns who also must pay ancillary personnel. A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to the town office and got the permit yourself? A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of the old water heater. �In some areas of this country, that can be substantial. �In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters littering the countryside. Also, access is a serious issue in many structures; and this applies equally to both removal and installation. �I could easily replace the unit in my basement; but I once had a shop where the heater was mounted in the attic. �That one would have required a couple of guys for a couple of hours to replace--involving ropes & pulleys, not to mention a significant amount of risk--in addition to the normal procedures. jak scrap steel has value everywhere, minimial but still a little money. so you haul the junk heater and get candy bar money. around here trash takes them but they often get picked up before that |
#164
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay ancillary personnel. I understand a business has to make money, but I don't, I have a fulltime job, I do this stuff as a favor for friends, hence the substantially lower price. A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters littering the countryside. Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there. |
#165
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
James Sweet wrote:
The wage to the technician is just a starting point, since few are independent contractors. Most work for larger concerns who also must pay ancillary personnel. I understand a business has to make money, but I don't, I have a fulltime job, I do this stuff as a favor for friends, hence the substantially lower price. I understand that, in your case. The thread had to do with commercial installers. If we all had a 'buddy named James' there would be no need for businesses which do this day in/out. In fact, that's the way most things were done, 'back when', but it's not the norm anymore. A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of the old water heater. In some areas of this country, that can be substantial. In others...well, I've seen a lot of old water heaters littering the countryside. Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there. That's because you have access to the recycler, know where it is, and have a vehicle suitable to transport...also the time. I know it's trivial to many--but monumental to others. I'd be hard-pressed to get a 50 gallon water heater in my old Corolla, although it could be done (it's a station wagon). I'd want to put in several layers of padding and some waterproofing. Many would not want to do so in their late model Whizzmobiles. Like I said, I've seen a lot of discarded water heaters.... jak |
#166
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Funny the title of this discussion was quick basic advice and now has
over 160 posts yep er quick and basic Lots of useful info!! |
#167
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Tony Hwang" wrote in message news:Nt6tj.40274$Ly.30911@pd7urf1no... Hi, EPA figure is based on sea level wht IDEAL driving condition, weather, road, wind, temp., etc. Considering that the EPA's National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory is located in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and that Ann Arbor is about 840 feet above sea level, and that the EPA conducts its own tests at this facility, I think your claim that the mileage figures are based on sea level conditions is suspect. Considering that starting in 2008 supplementary tests are conducted to estimate the effects of high speed (up to 80 mph), use of air conditioning, and cold temperatures (down to 20 degrees F), the claim that current figures represent ideal conditions also seem somewhat out of sync with the facts. |
#168
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message ... EPA figure is based on sea level wht IDEAL driving condition, weather, road, wind, temp., etc. EPA numbers are bogus the worst were on vehicles like PRIUS. tests always favor the manufacturer.......... According to the EPA's fuel economy guide for 2008, the Prius is rated at 48/45 for city/highway. The 2008 model year isn't very far advanced and there's only 23 2008 models listed in the shared fuel economy estimates, but those drivers claim actual mileage of 35 to 56 mpg, with an average of 43.5, I'd say the estimates aren't that bad. The best driver claims an average of 56.2 mpg for 38% stop and go and 62% highway driving - that car is driven in Arizona. The worst driver claims a mere 35.1 for a car driven in California - no percentages for city/highway are given. |
#169
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote in message ... "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message t... "Vic Smith" wrote in message Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." The news 2008 figures take real life into consideration and are much closer to reality. Previous figures were ideal lab conditions. It all points down to the fact that average Joe citizen can't tell the difference unless he can find out exactly how they take all these measurements (The method used and exactly what figures) that each company used and how (If they did) manipulated those figures to get the result as they publish. The main thing that the Government is interested in is a standard across the relevant industry so everyone can make a comparison. Justy. Anyone with access to the web can look up how the tests are done. The testing protocols are federally mandated, everyone must use the same test, 10%-15% of the tests are confirmed by the EPA, and the only mileage figures the manufacturers can advertise are the ones coming out of the tests. Vehicles weighing over 8500 pounds (vehicle, all fluids, maximum carrying capacity) are exempt from testing. |
#170
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message ... On Feb 15, 10:33 am, wrote: On Feb 15, 8:43 am, " wrote: - The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures and standards. ? It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. ? Same thing for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text - no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to look as good as possible Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. But trying to change the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish. well everyone knew the old tests werent valid yet it took many years to get them changed Yes, they weren't valid - the numbers they gave were to low - my mileage was always better than the EPA estimates. |
#171
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of
the oldwaterheater. Cost? I get money for the old units at the recycler, it's an insignificant amount, but probably enough to cover the fuel spent getting it there. Somewhere I saw the cost as 10 dollars at Home Depot for removal of the old heater. That's of course if you pay the 400 dollars for installation in the first place. Otherwise, the cost is to leave it outside for a week until someone with a pickup takes it to the recyclers for you. |
#172
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Lou wrote:
snip Considering that starting in 2008 supplementary tests are conducted to estimate the effects of high speed (up to 80 mph), use of air conditioning, and cold temperatures (down to 20 degrees F), the claim that current figures represent ideal conditions also seem somewhat out of sync with the facts. 20 degrees F cold? It is high time that automotive design and testing accommodate the northern climates where cars last about as long as a snowflake on a hot radiator. Test in International Falls in February on a track laden with salt and urea at minus 20 degrees F. Michael |
#173
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:15:51 -0500, "Lou"
wrote: wrote in message ... On Feb 15, 10:33 am, wrote: On Feb 15, 8:43 am, " wrote: - The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures and standards. ? It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. ? Same thing for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text - no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to look as good as possible Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. But trying to change the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish. well everyone knew the old tests werent valid yet it took many years to get them changed Yes, they weren't valid - the numbers they gave were to low - my mileage was always better than the EPA estimates. Well, they got farther from your experience. They now say your highway mileage is even lower. --Vic |
#174
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:34:01 -0800 (PST), N8N
wrote: I still post there occasionally, but a lot of the intelligent regulars have left and a lot of idiots and trolls have moved in The Impala is a company provided vehicle, I don't have any MoPars at the moment as my old Dart was a complete beater and not worth restoring, and prices of good ones are rising. I do have a Porsche 944 that I bought as a daily beater before I got a job with a company car, and my "real" car is a '55 Studebaker - just as bulletproof as a MoPar, but apparently not as collectible yet, so prices are still reasonable. Of course, it's still somewhat apart after I lost my mind after a simple gasket replacement turned into a drivetrain replacement... nate BTW, I found that the Impala never came with a 3.1. It's a 3.4 or 3.8. --Vic |
#175
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:16:27 -0600, jakdedert
wrote: That's because you have access to the recycler, know where it is, and have a vehicle suitable to transport...also the time. I know it's trivial to many--but monumental to others. I'd be hard-pressed to get a 50 gallon water heater in my old Corolla, although it could be done (it's a station wagon). I'd want to put in several layers of padding and some waterproofing. Many would not want to do so in their late model Whizzmobiles. Like I said, I've seen a lot of discarded water heaters.... All depends on locale. I replaced mine last year and the old one was gone in a couple hours. Night before garbage pickup the scavengers tour this area. My Corsica sedan isn't much bigger than your car, and I tied the new one to the roof to get it home, saving 50 bucks delivery. I use blankets on the roof and lots of rope sideways and fore and aft when I do that, so it's a bit of a hassle. But I don't want another vehicle for hauling, since I seldom do it. Don't have space for a trailer. If I lived where I had to haul away the old tank, I might just pay for the install and avoid the hassle. --Vic |
#176
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 06:34:01 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote: I still post there occasionally, but a lot of the intelligent regulars have left and a lot of idiots and trolls have moved in The Impala is a company provided vehicle, I don't have any MoPars at the moment as my old Dart was a complete beater and not worth restoring, and prices of good ones are rising. I do have a Porsche 944 that I bought as a daily beater before I got a job with a company car, and my "real" car is a '55 Studebaker - just as bulletproof as a MoPar, but apparently not as collectible yet, so prices are still reasonable. Of course, it's still somewhat apart after I lost my mind after a simple gasket replacement turned into a drivetrain replacement... nate BTW, I found that the Impala never came with a 3.1. It's a 3.4 or 3.8. --Vic Duh, brain fart on my part. It is indeed a 3.4, which is a 2.8/3.1 based engine. Same basic engine, but larger displacement. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#177
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
N8N wrote:
On Feb 14, 11:16 pm, Vic Smith wrote: On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:53:12 -0500, "Lou" wrote: Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." Think you said you had an Impala, and the 3.1 engine coupled with the GM lockup trans is an efficient combo. I consistently get 30-31 mpg highway with mine ('97 Lumina) over a long stretch of varied terrain. Measured by actual gas pumped into the tank over many thousands of miles. My '88 Celebrity with the 2.8 did about 28 mpg, but always had a heavier passenger load. --Vic It is HEAVILY dependent on driving style. In daily commuting (DC traffic, lots of accelerating/slowing down) I get horrible mileage but I too was getting about 30 MPG over the holidays, driving back and forth to visit my parents (90% highway) same drivetrain as you, '05 Impala, 3.1/auto. Wholly agree! my principal motor is an '02 Ford Focus 1.8 diesel - yes, I know you don't have that across The Pond. It has just turned 125k miles today and during that time has done 43.3 miles to the US gallon - close to the brochure figure though I can't remember the exact number at this moment. It's been a cracking good motor with little to complain about. If it lives up to the performance of the two Fiesta diesels I've had, it should be good for 250k before I either send it to its maker in the sky or sell it for peanuts. I gather from recent press comments here in Europe that you are about to be exposed to high quality diesel motors from Europe soon. They are good and do not have the air quality problems that you might associate with diesel trucks. Have you noticed the tightening emission standards for them - both in the US and Europe? Done me proud with shares in Johnson Matthey! Diesel needs less refining than gas and therefore less energy in production, emits less CO2 per gallon and has higher mpg, plus in real life has more grunt than petrol (gas) units. Go for it! They also display less variation in mpg between the urban and long distance figures. In case you think I'm grossly biased, I also run a Peugeot 306 petrol and an 07 Peugeot 206cc diesel - now that's a little monster in sheep's clothing - either 115 or 125 bhp in a shopping trolley. Great fun and approx. 45 mp USg. Little too early to call having only done less than 3000 miles as yet. PS I log all fuel and average over the entire life of the unit. |
#178
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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#179
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
on hot water tanks, in pennsylvania theres no sales tax on a installed
tank, but 7% if you take home and install yourself. $28 on a 400 buck tank. that taken off install price can make doing it yourself not worth the effort. sales tax has lots of wierd rules |
#180
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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#181
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:30:25 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote: Vic Smith wrote: BTW, I found that the Impala never came with a 3.1. It's a 3.4 or 3.8. --Vic Duh, brain fart on my part. It is indeed a 3.4, which is a 2.8/3.1 based engine. Same basic engine, but larger displacement. I was thinking about an Impala as my next used car, but have to check out the 3.4 first. Might go for a Malibu which I can get with a 3.1. In 2005 I rented a Malibu with 2.2 for a Florida trip and got 34mpg highway. Seemed less thirsty in the city than a six, and had plenty of power for me. I was surprised when I checked the oil before the trip, and found it was a 2.2. A lot different than the 2.2 I have in the '90 Corsica. Much quieter and more powerful. --Vic |
#182
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message well everyone knew the old tests werent valid yet it took many years to get them changed Valid in the manner they were tested. A real auto enthusiast knew they were not real life accurate but they were consistent. If Brand A said 25 mpg and brand B was rated at 30 mpg, you knew brand A was a realistic 21 mpg and the other was a realistic 25. The trouble comes from the people that actually believed the numbers and were disappointed when they could not achieve them. A for getting them changed, it was a lose/win situation. Marketing would lose because they could not brag about the high mileage cars they sold, but the dealer would have to win with fewer complaints about not getting what the sticker said they'd get. |
#183
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message ... on hot water tanks, in pennsylvania theres no sales tax on a installed tank, but 7% if you take home and install yourself. $28 on a 400 buck tank. that taken off install price can make doing it yourself not worth the effort. sales tax has lots of wierd rules But the state got their tax from the installer when he bought it to resell to you. |
#184
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 15, 11:18�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message ... on hot water tanks, in pennsylvania theres no sales tax on a installed tank, but 7% if you take home and install yourself. $28 on a 400 buck tank. that taken off install price can make doing it yourself not worth the effort. sales tax has lots of wierd rules But the state got their tax from the installer when he bought it to resell to you. no when a business buys something for resale theres no sales tax, in pennsylvania theres no tax on clothes, cold food no tax, hot food taxable...... |
#185
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message to you. no when a business buys something for resale theres no sales tax, Not true. I had a business in PA and when I bought material to install it, I had to pay the tax. I did not have to charge the customer tax on either the merchandise or my labor. In my other business, I was a reseller and charged the tax I would then file a tax exemption and not pay to my supplier, but I had to collect and forward the tax to the state. If you look at the tax exemption form, certain items are exempt, such as material used in manufacturing. Office supplies are taxable, as are computers, etc. If sales tax is not due, use tax is. Businesses are audited on a regular basis. As a consumer, you may avoid the tax on mail order buys, but a business will be caught faster than the home consumer. PA Form 1220 spells out the exemptions. Manufacturing, mining, farming, shipbuilding, and specificaly points out no exemption for property used in contructing, repairing, remodeling. in pennsylvania theres no tax on clothes, cold food no tax, hot food taxable...... The differentiantion is not hot or cold, it is ingredient versus prepared foods, be they hot or cold. That cold sandwich is still taxable. |
#186
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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#187
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,sci.electronics.repair
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:33:41 GMT, Bob Shuman wrote:
If you pay someone to install, then warranty may not be as important, I've learned that I agree with you. The warranty is for the fire-and-forget type of homeowner. The one who doesn't flush twice yearly, who doesn't add the second anode, who doesn't replace the anode after a few years, who doesn't add the ball valve, etc. Even then, the owner with the warranty has to bring the soaking wet heater in the back of their car in to the manufacturer after their 1-year is up on their supposed 12-year warranty - or else pay as much for the plumber to visit ($400) as the heater cost in the first place ($400) to obtain the 'free' heater. Some deal, that 12-year warranty! Or am I reading it wrong? |
#188
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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#189
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:17:48 -0600, jakdedert wrote:
A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of the old water heater. Home depot hauls away the old water heater as part of the cost of the installation. |
#190
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:37:35 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote:
I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply. The bottom line here is you certainly know more than enough to make an informed choice. Hi Bob, My husband returns tomorrow. I'll give him all your information and then tell him what choice to make! Donna |
#191
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:55:22 -0800 (PST), wrote:
sales tax has lots of wierd rules Home depot told me there was sales tax on everything except the permit. They tax the heater at 8.75%, they tax the $400 service at the same rate so just the tax is about $70 USD (assuming a $400 heater + $400 service). Given the permit is a tax of its own kind, I'm kind'a surprised they don't tax the tax out here. |
#192
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:37:20 -0800 (PST), wrote:
in pennsylvania theres no tax on clothes, cold food no tax, hot food taxable...... In California, the only thing they don't tax is death and taxes. |
#193
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:17:48 -0600, jakdedert wrote: A cost that nobody seems to have factored in, is removal and disposal of the old water heater. Home depot hauls away the old water heater as part of the cost of the installation. I figured that. I was referring to the uncounted costs of doing it oneself. jak |
#194
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Donna,
Why should a water heater be any different then any other purchasing decision? (Referring to your telling your husband what to do on this...) Bob "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message t... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:37:35 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote: I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply. The bottom line here is you certainly know more than enough to make an informed choice. Hi Bob, My husband returns tomorrow. I'll give him all your information and then tell him what choice to make! Donna |
#195
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:30:25 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote: Vic Smith wrote: BTW, I found that the Impala never came with a 3.1. It's a 3.4 or 3.8. --Vic Duh, brain fart on my part. It is indeed a 3.4, which is a 2.8/3.1 based engine. Same basic engine, but larger displacement. I was thinking about an Impala as my next used car, but have to check out the 3.4 first. Might go for a Malibu which I can get with a 3.1. In 2005 I rented a Malibu with 2.2 for a Florida trip and got 34mpg highway. Seemed less thirsty in the city than a six, and had plenty of power for me. I was surprised when I checked the oil before the trip, and found it was a 2.2. A lot different than the 2.2 I have in the '90 Corsica. Much quieter and more powerful. --Vic I'm not particularly enamored of the Impala to be perfectly honest with you... it's a little underpowered, doesn't handle well, is very loud inside, and has lots of little ergonomic glitches. Plus I've heard the 3800 is the engine to get, not the 3.4. The newer (06-up) cars have a 3.5 as the base engine and at least one of my complaints (awful door handles that eat your fingernails) has been fixed, although I haven't driven one...) Of course, I may be biased as my previous two daily drivers were a Porsche 944 and a VW GTI 1.8T, so I may be slightly spoiled by good cars... nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#196
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:33:41 GMT, Bob Shuman wrote: If you pay someone to install, then warranty may not be as important, I've learned that I agree with you. The warranty is for the fire-and-forget type of homeowner. The one who doesn't flush twice yearly, who doesn't add the second anode, who doesn't replace the anode after a few years, who doesn't add the ball valve, etc. Even then, the owner with the warranty has to bring the soaking wet heater in the back of their car in to the manufacturer after their 1-year is up on their supposed 12-year warranty - or else pay as much for the plumber to visit ($400) as the heater cost in the first place ($400) to obtain the 'free' heater. Some deal, that 12-year warranty! Or am I reading it wrong? You're pretty much right, although you still might find that within a particular model line there are some quality/efficiency/construction differences between the 6-year and 12-year models. you'll have to evaluate those on a case by case basis though. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#197
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:37:35 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote: I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply. The bottom line here is you certainly know more than enough to make an informed choice. Hi Bob, My husband returns tomorrow. I'll give him all your information and then tell him what choice to make! Donna Please don't do that when I'm drinking coffee... my nose is burning now... Somehow I seriously doubt you're related to SWMBO but you certainly sound like you could be! nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#198
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 16, 7:13�am, Nate Nagel wrote:
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote: On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:33:41 GMT, Bob Shuman wrote: If you pay someone to install, then warranty may not be as important, I've learned that I agree with you. The warranty is for the fire-and-forget type of homeowner. The one who doesn't flush twice yearly, who doesn't add the second anode, who doesn't replace the anode after a few years, who doesn't add the ball valve, etc. Even then, the owner with the warranty has to bring the soaking wet heater in the back of their car in to the manufacturer after their 1-year is up on their supposed 12-year warranty - or else pay as much for the plumber to visit ($400) as the heater cost in the first place ($400) to obtain the 'free' heater. Some deal, that 12-year warranty! Or am I reading it wrong? You're pretty much right, although you still might find that within a particular model line there are some quality/efficiency/construction differences between the 6-year and 12-year models. �you'll have to evaluate those on a case by case basis though. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - more expensive heater tend to have better materials, like brass drain valves rater than plastic ones. plastics only job is to drain once at end of life.. helped a buddy his plastic valves stem snapped off trying to open it..... we pushed the heater over on its side, and drained thru the fill lines and T&P valve a full 50 gallon tank is heavy,,,,, 400 pounds of water and at least a couple hundred for tank |
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:53:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:53:00 -0800 (PST), wrote: But it still doesn't say where the "magic" 41,045 BTU comes from. Whatever magic it is, googling for 41045 BTU gets *lots* of related PDFs! Residential ACM Manual: Water Heating Calculation Method, page 8 http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/200...ACM_APP_RG.PDF The standard energy in the hot water delivered, 41,045 Btu/day. Comments on Energy Star Ratings of Home Water Heaters, Page 5 http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partner...nergy_corp.pdf Using the formula: 41,045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365 ENERGY STAR Residential Water Heaters: Analysis, page 10 http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partner...iaAnalysis.pdf Energy consumption estimated using the DOE test procedure. Based on the following formula: (41,045 BTU/EF x 365)/100,000 LIFE CYCLE COSTS AND SAVINGS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 3 http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/us...info_sheet.pdf The annual delivered energy is 14.98 MMBtu (41045 Btu/day). OPERATING GUIDELINES AND STANDARDS FOR WATER HEATING SYSTEMS, page 32 http://www.solar-rating.org/standard...OG300SEP02.pdf Total Energy Draw 43.302 MJ (41,045 Btu) Consumers Directory of Home Water Heater Ratings, page http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/BA8B7EB0CFA8AFEF85256E9000609F9A/$FILE/12-07-oil-rwh.pdf Using the formula: 41045 Btu/EF($/Btu)*365 Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...ater_cost.html You need to know the unit cost of fuel 365 × 41045/EF × fuel cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation 365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation Review of hot water heaters http://www.consumersearch.com/www/ho...rs/review.html 365 X 41045/EF X Fuel Cost (BTU) = estimated annual cost of operation 365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation On-demand water heaters, page 8 http://www.naffainc.com/PDF-Files/on...r%20heater.pdf ..41045 x cost per therm of gas x 365 / EF = yearly cost to operate etc. I would guess any engineer should be able to tell us what this 41,045 magic number really is. |
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:57:32 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote: I would guess any engineer should be able to tell us what this 41,045 magic number really is. I'm surprised a chemist or engineer isn't on this group. I think this is the fundamental answer! page 11, Water Heating Calculations http://www.green-trust.org/2000/solar/solar.pdf 43,302 kJ/day is 41,045 Btu/day is the energy delivered to the hot water load per day And, this one says most plumbers don't understand the efficiency factor for home water heaters Residential Gas Water Heating: Program Design & Specification Considerations, page 6 http://www.cee1.org/cee/mtg/09-07ppt...%20heating.ppt Annual Savings (Therms/year) is based on the DOE Test Procedu (41,045 Btu/EF*365)/100,000 |
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