Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

Terry, has he been able to determine if he has a hot leg and a neutral leg?



"Terry" wrote in message
...
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

You can find out what I know by reading his comments to this thread

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...0356a9a4a064a6

He says no wire is hot at any box, and the light has never worked. He
is using an inductance pocket tester. I just learned he has phoned
the wires out in the past with a continuity tester.


On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:20:04 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

Terry, has he been able to determine if he has a hot leg and a neutral leg?



"Terry" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

Under the circumstances, I would abandon the circuit and run new cables to
each location


"Terry" wrote in message
...
You can find out what I know by reading his comments to this thread

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...0356a9a4a064a6

He says no wire is hot at any box, and the light has never worked. He
is using an inductance pocket tester. I just learned he has phoned
the wires out in the past with a continuity tester.


On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:20:04 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

Terry, has he been able to determine if he has a hot leg and a neutral
leg?



"Terry" wrote in message
. ..
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

You seem to have it figured correctly. From the postings, I am not sure
whether the OP is missing a hot feed to one of the switches or whether he is
missing a neutral feed to the light. These can be verified by connecting a
long wire to a hot or neutral in a known working circuit and testing for
power between the extension wire and the wires in the problem area.

One common problem with electrical troubleshooting for me is that people
tend to say they do or do not have power at or on a certain wire. Power
never is present at one wire, only between two wires and you need to know
which two wires are being checked. And, of course, using a DVM instead of a
test light just confuses the issue even more.

Don Young

On Feb 1, 10:45�pm, "Don Young" wrote:
"Terry" wrote in message

...



Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. �I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. �(knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. �That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. �Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

You seem to have it figured correctly. From the postings, I am not sure
whether the OP is missing a hot feed to one of the switches or whether he is
missing a neutral feed to the light. These can be verified by connecting a
long wire to a hot or neutral in a known working circuit and testing for
power between the extension wire and the wires in the problem area.

One common problem with electrical troubleshooting for me is that people
tend to say they do or do not have power at or on a certain wire. Power
never is present at one wire, only between two wires and you need to know
which two wires are being checked. And, of course, using a DVM instead of a
test light just confuses the issue even more.

Don Young- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

just replace all the wiring, running a new line back to the breaker box

Thanks Terry for starting this thread.

I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday.
Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able
to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a
flashlight.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
when I was working on it before. But I have to take one more board up to
access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that
today.

I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested --
start over and run a whole new circuit. But, since it's a puzzle right now,
I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and
try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.

To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
are removing now, though.

You might get lucky and find an easy fix. How have you been living?




On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote:

Thanks Terry for starting this thread.

I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday.
Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able
to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a
flashlight.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
when I was working on it before. But I have to take one more board up to
access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that
today.

I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested --
start over and run a whole new circuit. But, since it's a puzzle right now,
I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and
try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.

"Terry" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.

call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
it might bring a visit by the company but thats better than finding
out after a fire

On Feb 2, 9:36*pm, " wrote:
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
it might bring a visit by the company but thats better than finding
out after a fire

My homeowner's insurance company already knows I have knob and tube
wiring. It was listed on my application for insurance.

(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.


On Feb 2, 7:48*pm, Terry wrote:
Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.

To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
are removing now, though.

You might get lucky and find an easy fix. * How have you been living?




On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote:
Thanks Terry for starting this thread.

I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday.
Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able
to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a
flashlight.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
when I was working on it before. *But I have to take one more board up to
access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that
today.

I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- *
start over and run a whole new circuit. *But, since it's a puzzle right now,
I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and
try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.

"Terry" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. *I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. *(knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. *That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. *Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the
proper way to repair knob and tube. The more I read about it, the
less confident I feel about doing anything to it.

If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere
else then it sounds like the light can be fixed.

If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake
wiring the lights to begin with.

This sketch sounds like what you have.

http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg

You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light.
Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches
and the other wire from the other switch to the light.

Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a
better solution or point out a flaw in my logic.


On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:08:19 -0800 (PST), wrote:

(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.


On Feb 2, 7:48*pm, Terry wrote:
Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.

To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
are removing now, though.

You might get lucky and find an easy fix. * How have you been living?




On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote:
Thanks Terry for starting this thread.

I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday.
Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able
to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a
flashlight.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
when I was working on it before. *But I have to take one more board up to
access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that
today.

I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- *
start over and run a whole new circuit. *But, since it's a puzzle right now,
I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and
try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.

"Terry" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. *I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. *(knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. *That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. *Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Feb 3, 12:20�pm, Terry wrote:
I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the
proper way to repair knob and tube. �The more I read about it, the
less confident I feel about doing anything to it.

If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere
else then it sounds like the light can be fixed.

If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake
wiring the lights to begin with. �

This sketch sounds like what you have.

http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg

You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light.
Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches
and the other wire from the other switch to the light.

Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a
better solution or point out a flaw in my logic.



On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:08:19 -0800 (PST), wrote:
(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). �I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. �Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.

On Feb 2, 7:48�pm, Terry wrote:
Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.

To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
are removing now, though.

You might get lucky and find an easy fix. � How have you been living?


On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote:
Thanks Terry for starting this thread.

I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday.
Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able
to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a
flashlight.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
when I was working on it before. �But I have to take one more board up to
access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that
today.

I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- �
start over and run a whole new circuit. �But, since it's a puzzle right now,
I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and
try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.

"Terry" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. �I am assuming that at one time it
worked with what he has. �(knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. �That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. �Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it
exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for
liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure
homes with it.

a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100
years old.

how many appliances last a 100 years?

wrote:
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
....

If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.

--

wrote in message
...
On Feb 3, 12:20?pm, Terry wrote:
I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the
proper way to repair knob and tube. ?The more I read about it, the
less confident I feel about doing anything to it.

If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere
else then it sounds like the light can be fixed.

If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake
wiring the lights to begin with. ?

This sketch sounds like what you have.

http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg

You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light.
Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches
and the other wire from the other switch to the light.

Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a
better solution or point out a flaw in my logic.



On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:08:19 -0800 (PST), wrote:
(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). ?I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. ?Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.

On Feb 2, 7:48?pm, Terry wrote:
Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.

To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you
are removing now, though.

You might get lucky and find an easy fix. ? How have you been living?


On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote:
Thanks Terry for starting this thread.

I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on
Tuesday.
Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be
able
to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to
use a
flashlight.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already
up from
when I was working on it before. ?But I have to take one more board up
to
access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do
that
today.

I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have
suggested -- ?
start over and run a whole new circuit. ?But, since it's a puzzle
right now,
I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above,
and
try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle.

"Terry" wrote in message
.. .
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.

Here is what he says he has with no power on anything.

(Knob & Tube)
Light with 2 wires
S1 3-way with 3 wires
S2 3-way with 3 wires

I know nothing about knob and tube. ?I am assuming that at one time
it
worked with what he has. ?(knowing this may not be true)

So..........
The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere)
and
a wire coming from S2

S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1

S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be
coming
from a source (coming from anywhere)

Does this sound right?

I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire
going from the light to S2

So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2.

That leaves the third wire coming from S1. ?That wire should be the
one going to a power source.

http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg

This sketch is a common arrangement. ?Maybe you will have something
similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it
exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for
liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure
homes with it.

a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100
years old.

how many appliances last a 100 years?

Yea, that's it, it's kinda like a toaster, or maybe a percolator.... I get
it now

On Feb 3, 12:32�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...

...

If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.

--

today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some
people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then
insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay

wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:32�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
...

If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.

today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some
people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then
insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay

Unless the homeowner deliberately conceals a situation, there's no basis
for not paying the claim.

You've been afforded the opportunity to previously document a single
verifiable case of the above problem.

It is nothing but FUD.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:32?pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
...

If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.

today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some
people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then
insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay

Unless the homeowner deliberately conceals a situation, there's no basis
for not paying the claim.

You've been afforded the opportunity to previously document a single
verifiable case of the above problem.

It is nothing but FUD.

--Of course, this is the same nonsense from a guy who compares an
insulated copper wire to a car. " How old is your car" and other silliness

On Feb 3, 11:52Â*pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 3, 12:32�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
...

If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap.

today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some
people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then
insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay

Unless the homeowner deliberately conceals a situation, there's no basis
for not paying the claim.

You've been afforded the opportunity to previously document a single
verifiable case of the above problem.

It is nothing but FUD.

--

shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, so
insurance companies now call it flood damage and refuse to pay, saying
the flood that went with the storm did the real damage..........

even 10 years ago insurance was dependable, pay the premium, relax
they pay.

in my immediate neighborhood a main water line burst, nearly washing
away a home. took out basement walls, etc. nearly totaled the home.

the water companies insurance refused to pay because water was shut
off within a half hour.

water company is a muncipality, so it cant be sued.

homeowners refused to pay too.

the whole mess is in court, the family had to borrow money from family
and friends to stabiilize their home.

years ago such stuff didnt occur..........

now why defend K&T its obsolete, undersized, lacks grounding a basic
safety issue,,,,, geez its likely a 100 years old.

in that time how many times has the home got?

a new roof?

been repainted?

new carpeting?

new furnace?

new hot water tank?

how many new cars have owners of that home bought since K&T was new?

whats it cost to replace all the K&T? perhaps 5 grand?

now compare that 5 grand with one new roof............

you know no one really owns a home, since they tend to outlive people.

we are really stewards of probably the most expensive thing we will
ever buy.

and homes wear out, and need continious repairs and upgrades.

so why fight new wiring?

perhaps your home is the worst on the street? with broken side walks,
roof patched with tarps, and the interior a shambles?

while you proudly say its fine?

maintaing upgrading and taking care of your home pays off big time at
home resale time, in faster sale and much more money.

replacing K&T isnt money wasted, its money invested........

wrote:
....

shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...

No. (No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)

--

On Feb 4, 9:36�am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...

No. �(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)

--

that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does
whatever it can to avoid paying claims.

I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.

why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets
replaced on a regular basis?

wrote:
On Feb 4, 9:36�am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...
No. �(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)

--

that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does
whatever it can to avoid paying claims.

Insurance pays for what is covered -- what isn't covered isn't paid for.
Some insurers are easier to work with than others--just as any other
area of human interaction.

I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.

Because they had nothing to do w/ the initial complaint and are a common
tactic of the weak argument -- when no recourse on the subject at hand,
bring in another.

why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets
replaced on a regular basis?

Again, nothing to do w/ the question at hand...

--

wrote:
(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.


If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4.
In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral.
When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is
off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but
3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was
ever code compliant?]

Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be
further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.

-------------
You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T.

--
bud--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
wrote:
On Feb 4, 9:36?am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...
No. ?(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)

--

that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does
whatever it can to avoid paying claims.

Insurance pays for what is covered -- what isn't covered isn't paid for.
Some insurers are easier to work with than others--just as any other area
of human interaction.

I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.

Because they had nothing to do w/ the initial complaint and are a common
tactic of the weak argument -- when no recourse on the subject at hand,
bring in another.

why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets
replaced on a regular basis?

Again, nothing to do w/ the question at hand...

Every time I read his rediculous posts, my computer plays Twilight Zone
music, I don't get it




--

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
wrote:

If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In
operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When
both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is
not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes
were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?]

Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further
away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.


Thanks. I'm going to a little more tomorrow to see what I can figure out.
At this point, it's just a game -- a puzzle that I want to see if I can
figure out.

In the end, I do plan on rewiring the entire house -- either with me doing
some (cutting holes and pulling wires) and an electrician doing all of the
rest, or with an electrician doing the whole thing.

But, for now, I'm having a good time trying to see if I can find where the
disconnect is in the hallway light setup.

RBM wrote:
....

Every time I read his rediculous posts, my computer plays Twilight Zone
music, I don't get it

Maybe you need a new roll of tin foil...

--

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:55:08 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.


If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4.
In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral.
When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is
off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but
3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was
ever code compliant?]

Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be
further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.

-------------
You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T.

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg

So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between
each switch.

I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used
an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at
either switch or at the light.

I am starting to get a K&T fetish.

On Feb 4, 12:02�pm, "BETA-33" wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message

.. .

wrote:

If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In
operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When
both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is
not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes
were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?]

Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further
away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.

Thanks. �I'm going to a little more tomorrow to see what I can figure out.
At this point, it's just a game -- a puzzle that I want to see if I can
figure out.

In the end, I do plan on rewiring the entire house -- either with me doing
some (cutting holes and pulling wires) and an electrician doing all of the
rest, or with an electrician doing the whole thing.

But, for now, I'm having a good time trying to see if I can find where the
disconnect is in the hallway light setup.

I suspect the problem is a switch rather than a wiring connection
failure. but with the connections soldered, buried in the walls it
will be hard to find and may be a sign of a lareger problem..........

if a soldered connection failed perhaps more will, and the next one
may overheat and cause a fire........

to the naysayersa of replace the K&T I gather you dont believe in
maintaing your home.

come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get
homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale.

wrote:
....
come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get
homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale.

But it's going to have burned down by tonight, anyway, so what's the
difference?

Get off the BS, crap..._IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big if") and
when an insurance company refuses to write coverage, it can be fixed
then. Despite your BS claims, I've yet to find any indication of any
major underwriter that will not write for K&T as a blanket prohibition.
They _might_ require an inspection.

I've done enough retrofits from antebellum to WWII boom time frame I've
lost count and K&T wiring has _NEVER_ been an inhibition to a sale.

--

On Feb 4, 5:23�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get
homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale.

But it's going to have burned down by tonight, anyway, so what's the
difference?

Get off the BS, crap..._IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big if") and
when an insurance company refuses to write coverage, it can be fixed
then. �Despite your BS claims, I've yet to find any indication of any
major underwriter that will not write for K&T as a blanket prohibition.
� They _might_ require an inspection.

I've done enough retrofits from antebellum to WWII boom time frame I've
lost count and K&T wiring has _NEVER_ been an inhibition to a sale.

--

My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new
policies for homes with K&T.....

so you wait till home sale time and K&T kills the sale? plus you may
not have the bucks to rewire your entire home or pay more......

planned in advance makes rewiring more manegable.

plus rewiring requires access holes in walls and cielings, so you fix
up your home, K&T becomes a deal breaker, then you get to fix your
home twice.....

Even if he has a Carter three way, he still has to have a hot leg somewhere
in the system. If he's tested with an inductive tester, that he knows is
working, and gets no light, he's got an open hot leg. He should be able to
check for a grounded leg using a grounded pipe or extension cord and
continuity tester. Once he finds the leg that's grounded, he should be able
to determine which leg should be hot, and backtrack from there




"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:55:08 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.


If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4.
In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral.
When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is
off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but
3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was
ever code compliant?]

Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be
further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.

-------------
You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T.

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg

So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between
each switch.

I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used
an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at
either switch or at the light.

I am starting to get a K&T fetish.

wrote:
....

My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new
policies for homes with K&T.....

My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense
corroborated no such thing...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
wrote:
...

My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new
policies for homes with K&T.....

My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense
corroborated no such thing...

The last time he spewed this nonsense, I contacted my State Farm agent to
find out what the company policy was. His answer, as expected was that the
older a building is, the more it's scrutinized for defects and violations
and if they determine the electrical system to be in dangerous condition,
they won't write a policy, but they DON'T deny a policy solely due to the
presents of K&T--

On Feb 4, 6:43�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new
policies for homes with K&T.....

My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense
corroborated no such thing...

--

call a agent and ask...........

please report back and remember others here have reported they couldnt
get homeowners or had 6 months to replace it, or lose coverage

We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires,
replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the
carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or
pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check
and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do
to our automobiles.

But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. It's not a
viable argument.


s


wrote in message
...
On Feb 4, 9:36?am, dpb wrote:
wrote:

...

shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ...

No. ?(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.)

--

that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does
whatever it can to avoid paying claims.

I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised.

why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets
replaced on a regular basis?

I've never even heard of one requiring an inspection. And I've bought many
houses, and most of them have at least some K&T wiring. I wasn't even asked
about the wiring. I believe these phantom insurance company stories are
just that, stories.


s


"dpb" wrote in message ...

Get off the BS, crap..._IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big if") and when
an insurance company refuses to write coverage, it can be fixed then.
Despite your BS claims, I've yet to find any indication of any major
underwriter that will not write for K&T as a blanket prohibition. They
_might_ require an inspection.

I've done enough retrofits from antebellum to WWII boom time frame I've
lost count and K&T wiring has _NEVER_ been an inhibition to a sale.

--

And they won't. Because there is no such criteria from them.


s


"dpb" wrote in message ...
wrote:
...

My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new
policies for homes with K&T.....

My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense
corroborated no such thing...

--

On Feb 4, 9:55�pm, "S. Barker" wrote:
We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires,
replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the
carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or
pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check
and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do
to our automobiles.

But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. �It's not a
viable argument.


some friends got caught up, insurance required replacing K&T,
rebuilding a front porch, replacing some bad sections of sidewalk, and
installing a railing on outside steps.

its nice you service your vehicles, do you ever replace them?

do you know anyone with a vehicle as old as K&T???????

like i said would some others call state farm and ask?

homeowners insurance has changed a lot in the last 10 years

and those of you with K&T at home resale time you can remember this
discussion when you cant sell your home...........

Terry wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:55:08 -0600, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck)

This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long
time
ago, this is what I found:

I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way
switches
and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket.

At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires
as 1,
2, and 3.

At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with
continuity
with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the
wires
they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the
upstairs
3-way as number 4.

At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has
continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4
has
continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch.

If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements
indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue
wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4.
In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral.
When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is
off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but
3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was
ever code compliant?]

Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be
further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways.

-------------
You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T.

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg

Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.


So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between
each switch.

But not between the switches. A bad connection from a hot to the wiring
connecting the switches.


I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used
an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at
either switch or at the light.

I believe the voltage tester uses capacitance coupling to the wire.

*IF* the tester is sensitive enough to provide an indication when 3 or 4
inches from a hot wire, BETA might be able to trace the wire with the
voltage tester. That requires making the dead wire hot. Kill any circuit
that may possibly have originally fed the light. Bring power to the
switch location with an extension cord. Connect a small light bulb (like
with a pigtail socket) to the extension cord hot. Connect the other side
the light bulb to wire 1 then 2. The light bulb should light up when
connected to the neutral (an alternate method of finding the neutral to
RBM's post). Connect the light bulb to the other wire, which should be
the wire that no longer connects to the building hot. Trace the wire
through the walls with the voltage tester. This has worked for me on
occasion. But don't try it unless you understand how it works and the
significant safety issues. And check that the voltage tester is
sensitive enough (in ceilings you may need more than 4 inch sensitivity).

For one K&T problem I cut at least 6 holes in a ceiling so I could
insert a voltage tester and mirror to follow the wire. K&T can be a pain.


I am starting to get a K&T fetish.


Geez - you and hallerb could start a club.

--
bud--

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud--
wrote:


So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg

Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.

Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?

Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
the lamp off)

I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
light and make a proper 3-way connection.