google knob and tube fire risk to confirm I am right.

Homeowners insurance underwriters may refuse to cover it
As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny
coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new
homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or an
electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.

I have a ton of references if anyone is interested, it appears most
homeowners insurance companies today wouldnt insure a home with K&T

definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk

S. Barker wrote:
We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires,
replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the
carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or
pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check
and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do
to our automobiles.

But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. It's not a
viable argument.

Actually the automotive analogy is a good one *for* replacing K&T. Most
cloth covered auto wiring is no longer suitable for service and will
crumble if disturbed. Granted, that was being phased out by the
mid-50's but then again most K&T was installed prior to that. The only
thing making it not a perfect argument *for* replacing K&T is that an
automotive environment is much harsher on the insulation than is the
inside of a wall.

I'm not one to replace things for the sake of replacing them (I did
salvage the harness in my '55 STudebaker by judicious patching) but old
cloth covered auto harnesses are something to be concerned about. You
might find one that is still OK but I would bet that most that still
remain will not be so if one disturbs it significantly.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Again, Bull****. Show in writing ANY company that even asks about wiring.

s


wrote in message
...
google knob and tube fire risk to confirm I am right.

Homeowners insurance underwriters may refuse to cover it
As existing K&T wiring gets ever older, insurance companies may deny
coverage due to increased risk. Several companies will not write new
homeowners policies at all unless all K&T wiring is replaced or an
electrician has certified that the wiring is in good condition.

I have a ton of references if anyone is interested, it appears most
homeowners insurance companies today wouldnt insure a home with K&T

Bull**** again. Never been proven.

s


wrote in message
...
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
Bull**** again. Never been proven.

s
Aren't there currently hundreds of thousands of houses or more with K&T
wiring which are being bought and sold regularly? Considering that you NEED
insurance if you have a mortgage, if Haller had any credibility, they would
have all been rewired by now.


wrote in message
...
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk

Aren't there currently hundreds of thousands of houses or more with K&T
wiring which are being bought and sold regularly? Considering that you NEED
insurance if you have a mortgage, if Haller had any credibility, they would
have all been rewired by now.

homes remain in families sometimes for generations. takes a long time
to rewire every K&T install......

now since you havent bothered to goggle, too lazy i guess while you
just prooclaim you know..... check out this link it details homeowners
troubles with K&T and has many reports of being unable to get
insurance without rewiring...

please no futher comments till you do your homework

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...lover&ie=UTF-8

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...f08fc1bbc8d401...

heres a direct copy from just one of these links

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Posted by Jerry_in_OC_MD (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 16:55


We had the home inspection on the 1920 "Dutch Colonial Revival" that
we are in the process of purchasing.
The Inspector had a lot of concerns about the knob and tube wiring in
the house. Some, but not all of the electric is updated. He
recommended that we (or preferably the seller) have the wiring
inspected and safety tested by an licensed electrician before we take
possession of the house.

He mentioned that it might be tough to get a homeowners policy with
the electric in it's current state. Has anyone else had difficulty
getting an insurance policy for their home because of knob-and-tube?




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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 18:11

Here in Ontario, if you have an existing policy, most insurers will
cover a newly purchased home with knob & tube wiring, and give you
30-60 days to disconnect and replace it.
This is a fairly recent change, for a couple of years, it was nigh on
impossible to get insurance for any house with knob & tube unless it
was with a high risk company.

First time home buyers are having more luck these days, but it often
means wearing out your dialing finger. Having an electrical
certificate stating that the wiring is safe and adequate and also
advising what percentage of the wiring is knob & tube may help.

If you have home insurance now, check with your current broker to see
how your company deals with knob & tube issues.

Hope this helps.




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Posted by joed (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 19:00

Here in Ontario I know of at least one person who was forced to
replace their K&T or their insurance would not renew.



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Posted by homemaker (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 21:49

I should have been clearer. Most insurers here will not take on a home
with knob & tube, or keep an existing property with K & T unless it is
disconnected and replaced within 30-60 days.
The only exceptions I know of have been elderly folks who really don't
use much power and tend to have no computers, VCR's, microwaves, and
who live much more simply than those of us with all kinds of fancy
appliances and toys. Electrician's letters advising that the wiring is
safe and adequate for the senior have satisfied many insurance
companies. Makes it tough for those buying the house if it's sold
though.




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Posted by bas157 (My Page) on Tue, Nov 8, 05 at 22:06

When I bought my house, USAA (insurance company) wanted to see the
home inspection report, which pictured some knob and tube wiring. They
wanted it replaced until I showed them better pictures which clearly
show the wiring was just a few pieces and the knobs, obviously hooked
up.



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Posted by HappyCthulhu (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 12:09

We have knob and tube in our 1926 Tudor and never had any problems
with getting insurance.
We use State Farm.
They never asked to see the inspection either.
Knob and tube wireing is usually not a problem as long as it is in
good shape.




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Posted by kennf (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:21

Other than insurance, the other problem with K&T is that you aren't
supposed to insulate over it. So if you want to insulate the attic
better than 1920s standards, you may be out of luck.



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Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45

We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube
energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is through
Vermont Mutual.
VT




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Posted by sharon_sd (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 6:46

Our (Ontario)insurance company has not asked us to change out the knob
and tube that remains, and their rep has seen it. What they did
require was that we remove the line from our oil tank to the furnace
that ran under the concrete basement floor and replace it with a line
on top of the floor.



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Posted by NancyLouise (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 8:01

We have a 100 year old home. When we recently switched insurance
companies, during the inspection one of the first questions the
inspector asked was if there was any K & T wiring. Luckily there
wasn't. It is a very real safety concern. I believe it may be more
difficult to get insurance because of it. Perhaps you can have monies
taken off the asking price of the home to get the home's wiring up to
code. It can't hurt to ask. NancyLouise



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Posted by Mom1993 (My Page) on Thu, Nov 10, 05 at 15:00

We own a 1920's house, had all original K&T wiring. Amica (who we have
used for 15 years) wouldn't insure the house - Fireman's fund would.
We are replacing almost all of the original electrical...Good luck!

Terry wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud--
wrote:

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.

Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?

Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
the lamp off)
..
What grounded surfaces are there near the screwshell?


I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
light and make a proper 3-way connection.

If you find the splices, you have probably found the bad connection. The
way I read your post you want to make the K&T circuit a 'proper' 3-way.


The
circuit could also be rewired with Romex as several have suggested.

Life is a series of trade-offs.

--
bud--

wrote:
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) a
http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/200408250...2003-13680.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.

Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.

I eagerly await your reply.

--
bud--

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:29:33 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud--
wrote:

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.

Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?

Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
the lamp off)
.
What grounded surfaces are there near the screwshell?


I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
light and make a proper 3-way connection.

If you find the splices, you have probably found the bad connection. The
way I read your post you want to make the K&T circuit a 'proper' 3-way.


The
circuit could also be rewired with Romex as several have suggested.



I am really just beating a dead horse now. The suggestion to replace
it is, of course, the best solution.

From what I have read in the last couple of days, you can repair an
existing K&T circuit if it met the code requirements at the time. So
if BETA had a "proper" 3-way switching arrangement and a broken hot
wire, the way I see it, he could just butt splice a new piece of wire
in it's place. You can still use K&T to repair K&T.

I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was
ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.

One other thing BETA should consider is that the neutral wire could
still be in use. And splicing a neutral together that is still in use
can cause dancing.

Excellent point. I have actually bought 2 in the last year that had K&T and
although i rewired them, i was never even asked about the wiring. And yes,
they did ask when they were built.

s

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
Bull**** again. Never been proven.

s
Aren't there currently hundreds of thousands of houses or more with K&T
wiring which are being bought and sold regularly? Considering that you
NEED insurance if you have a mortgage, if Haller had any credibility, they
would have all been rewired by now.


wrote in message
...
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk

Ok, I will do some reading of those links. BUT, i don't really see where
that changes my experience of having never been asked about wiring. Sounds
like the people being hassled by insurance companies about K&T wiring need
to find a new better reputable company.

s


Oh, and BTW, i'll comment all i feel like.


wrote in message
...

Aren't there currently hundreds of thousands of houses or more with K&T
wiring which are being bought and sold regularly? Considering that you
NEED
insurance if you have a mortgage, if Haller had any credibility, they
would
have all been rewired by now.

homes remain in families sometimes for generations. takes a long time
to rewire every K&T install......

now since you havent bothered to goggle, too lazy i guess while you
just prooclaim you know..... check out this link it details homeowners
troubles with K&T and has many reports of being unable to get
insurance without rewiring...

please no futher comments till you do your homework

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...lover&ie=UTF-8

On Feb 6, 2:15 pm, "S. Barker" wrote:
Ok, I will do some reading of those links. BUT, i don't really see where
that changes my experience of having never been asked about wiring. Sounds
like the people being hassled by insurance companies about K&T wiring need
to find a new better reputable company.

In Ontario, some insurance companies make a big deal out of K&T,
others are more reasonable.

The Electrical Safety Authority is the responsible agency and has
published a lot of information regarding K&T wiring in response to
insurance company actions within the province.

A favourable inspection by ESA carries a lot of weight with the more
reasonable insurers.

Google ESA.

On Feb 6, 1:01�pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) ahttp://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/200408250...ine.gov/pfr/in...
� orhttp://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.

Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.

I eagerly await your reply.

--
bud--

well heres the real world discussion of K&T
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...lover&ie=UTF-8

why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
this topic

wrote in message
...
On Feb 6, 1:01?pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk

The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro)
ahttp://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/200408250...ine.gov/pfr/in...
? orhttp://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.

Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.

I eagerly await your reply.

--
bud--

well heres the real world discussion of K&T
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...lover&ie=UTF-8

why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
this topic

We try to stay out of the twilight zone

Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.

Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.

I eagerly await your reply.

--
bud--

do tell? if the originally werent concerned with overheating why run
wires thru tubes?

have you read the pastes i posted from others who couldnt get
insurance?

wrote in message
...

Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.

Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.

I eagerly await your reply.

--
bud--

do tell? if the originally werent concerned with overheating why run
wires thru tubes?

They ran it on insulators, exposed. Tubes and loom were used where it went
through wood or needed protection. I'm sure many people who couldn't get
insurance had K&T that was screwed with over the years and deemed unsafe.
That doesn't mean that ALL K&T is in poor condition... Except in your mind




have you read the pastes i posted from others who couldnt get
insurance?

to prevent chaffing. just like why we have to staple romex within a certain
number of inches from a box. Both rediculous unnecessary rules. I guess
frequent earthquakes could rub the wires over a couple centuries.

s


wrote in message
...

do tell? if the originally werent concerned with overheating why run
wires thru tubes?

have you read the pastes i posted from others who couldnt get
insurance?

Ok, so i've read the first 10 links on the AOL search you linked me to.
Only ONE (1) sited an insurance company by name. The rest only speculated
that "some" insurance companies "may" refuse coverage on K&T. One other
link stated a state farm user that wasn't questioned about the wiring. So,
i guess there's still no documented proof that "insurance companies deny
coverage on K&T wired homes". I can't imagine the other 90 hits being any
different than the 10 most popular.

but thanks for playing.



steve

In article ,
says...
to prevent chaffing. just like why we have to staple romex within a certain
number of inches from a box. Both rediculous unnecessary rules. I guess
frequent earthquakes could rub the wires over a couple centuries.

Earthquakes are much too large a movement to worry about. Ordinary
mechanical vibration can be enough to cause long runs of wire or pipe to
chafe, e.g. the regular shaking from a washing machine's spin cycle.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

On Feb 6, 9:30�pm, "S. Barker" wrote:
Ok, so i've read the first 10 links on the AOL search you linked me to.
Only ONE (1) sited an insurance company by name. �The rest only speculated
that "some" insurance companies "may" refuse coverage on K&T. �One other
link stated a state farm user that wasn't questioned about the wiring. �So,
i guess there's still no documented proof that "insurance companies deny
coverage on K&T wired homes". �I can't imagine the other 90 hits being any
different than the 10 most popular.

but thanks for playing.

steve

geez are you incapable of just calling state farm and ask?

I pasted the reports of people who couldnt get homeowners because of
K&T yet you ignore these posts.

just HOW EXACTLY does one prove wiring which has been almost totally
buried in walls for a 100 years is in good condition? a electrician
would have to open walls to check the condition of the wiring.

one more little thing, notice its called knob and tube, the wires go
thru the tubes when wires have to pass thru framing. specifically
ceramic insulators

this was done to prevent overheating of wires to cause a fire,

now doesnt it make sense that insulation could also cause a fire?

i bet you have K&T covered with insulation..........

and are burying your head in the sand over this as a known hazard

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Posted by Vermonster (My Page) on Wed, Nov 9, 05 at 14:45


We were unable to get homeowners insurance with knob and tube
energized. Agreed to de-energize circuit and update. Policy is
through
Vermont Mutual.
VT

In article ,
says...
Ok, so i've read the first 10 links on the AOL search you linked me to.
Only ONE (1) sited an insurance company by name. The rest only speculated
that "some" insurance companies "may" refuse coverage on K&T. One other
link stated a state farm user that wasn't questioned about the wiring. So,
i guess there's still no documented proof that "insurance companies deny
coverage on K&T wired homes".

Not all insurance companies deny coverage to all K&T wiring, but many
insurance companies do prohibit all K&T wiring. It's more commonly
prohibited in newer areas where only a small fraction of the housing
suppy is old enough to have K&T.

Underwriting guides are generally confidential company documents, you
probably won't find them posted on line, and I'm certainly not about to
violate any contracts by posting excerpts, but I assure you, they do
exist, and many insurance companies really do prohibit insuring homes
with K&T wiring, enough that it has become a serious problem in some
markets.

On the other hand, many insurance companies rely on agents to report
whether a house has K&T or other prohibited conditions, and if the post-
insurance inspection doesn't catch it, a house with K&T can get insured
despite the prohibitions.

Once it's insured, the policy generally won't have an exclusion for
damage caused by K&T wiring, it's an underwriting issue, not a coverage
issue.

DISCLAIMER: I am not your insurance agent.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

On Feb 6, 10:27�pm, wrote:
In article ,
says...

Ok, so i've read the first 10 links on the AOL search you linked me to.
Only ONE (1) sited an insurance company by name. �The rest only speculated
that "some" insurance companies "may" refuse coverage on K&T. �One other
link stated a state farm user that wasn't questioned about the wiring. �So,
i guess there's still no documented proof that "insurance companies deny
coverage on K&T wired homes". �

Not all insurance companies deny coverage to all K&T wiring, but many
insurance companies do prohibit all K&T wiring. �It's more commonly
prohibited in newer areas where only a small fraction of the housing
suppy is old enough to have K&T.

Underwriting guides are generally confidential company documents, you
probably won't find them posted on line, and I'm certainly not about to
violate any contracts by posting excerpts, but I assure you, they do
exist, and many insurance companies really do prohibit insuring homes
with K&T wiring, enough that it has become a serious problem in some
markets.

On the other hand, many insurance companies rely on agents to report
whether a house has K&T or other prohibited conditions, and if the post-
insurance inspection doesn't catch it, a house with K&T can get insured
despite the prohibitions. �

Once it's insured, the policy generally won't have an exclusion for
damage caused by K&T wiring, it's an underwriting issue, not a coverage
issue.

DISCLAIMER: I am not your insurance agent.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. �See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

hey thanks!!!

do you agree insurance companies are more pickey today about home
condition?

like poor sidewalk trip hazards, bad roofs, rotted porches, lack of
railings on public steps leading to homes.

if i were a insurance company i wouldnt want to insure something that
was a obvious hazard.

thats akin to insuring a repeat DUI driver. if they get coverage it
naturally costs a lot more

wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:01�pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk
The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) ahttp://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/200408250...ine.gov/pfr/in...
� orhttp://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.

Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.

I eagerly await your reply.


well heres the real world discussion of K&T
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...lover&ie=UTF-8

why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
this topic

Repeating:
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation?
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring?

I looked at a few links and didn't find either. Just some opinions based
on who knows what.

Where is insurance actuarial data on fires caused by K&T. The insurance
company in Maine didn't produce any.

IMHO insurance limitations on K&T are just the latest form of redlining.

Why are electricians on this newsgroup far less paranoid about K&T than
you are?

--
bud--

Terry wrote:
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:29:33 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud--
wrote:

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.

Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?

Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
the lamp off)
.
What grounded surfaces are there near the screwshell?

I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
light and make a proper 3-way connection.

If you find the splices, you have probably found the bad connection. The
way I read your post you want to make the K&T circuit a 'proper' 3-way.


The
circuit could also be rewired with Romex as several have suggested.



I am really just beating a dead horse now. The suggestion to replace
it is, of course, the best solution.

From what I have read in the last couple of days, you can repair an
existing K&T circuit if it met the code requirements at the time. So
if BETA had a "proper" 3-way switching arrangement and a broken hot
wire, the way I see it, he could just butt splice a new piece of wire
in it's place. You can still use K&T to repair K&T.

Problems are likely to be at soldered joints. I have seen 2 failed
solder joints (one in K&T) - both were "cold joints" - defective when made.


I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was
ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.

I have seen the Carter circuit a couple of times and it seems to come up
occasionally on this newsgroup. I suspect it was once compliant, but I
don't know. Wiring practice has changed a lot. No one has ever said
definitively it was or wasn't once compliant. Anyone know any really old
electricians?

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
...
Terry wrote:
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:29:33 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud--
wrote:

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.

Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?

Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
the lamp off)
.
What grounded surfaces are there near the screwshell?

I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
light and make a proper 3-way connection.

If you find the splices, you have probably found the bad connection. The
way I read your post you want to make the K&T circuit a 'proper' 3-way.

The circuit could also be rewired with Romex as several have suggested.



I am really just beating a dead horse now. The suggestion to replace
it is, of course, the best solution.

From what I have read in the last couple of days, you can repair an
existing K&T circuit if it met the code requirements at the time. So
if BETA had a "proper" 3-way switching arrangement and a broken hot
wire, the way I see it, he could just butt splice a new piece of wire
in it's place. You can still use K&T to repair K&T.

Problems are likely to be at soldered joints. I have seen 2 failed solder
joints (one in K&T) - both were "cold joints" - defective when made.


I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was
ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.

I have seen the Carter circuit a couple of times and it seems to come up
occasionally on this newsgroup. I suspect it was once compliant, but I
don't know. Wiring practice has changed a lot. No one has ever said
definitively it was or wasn't once compliant. Anyone know any really old
electricians?

It was first made illegal in 1920 Nec 380.2 which required three way and
four way switching to be done only in the ungrounded conductor, but of
course it continued to be used to save $$$

--
bud--

On Feb 7, 4:31Â*am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:01�pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk
The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) ahttp://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)

http://web.archive.org/web/200408250...ine.gov/pfr/in...
� orhttp://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".

Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.

Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.

I eagerly await your reply.

well heres the real world discussion of K&T
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...f08fc1bbc8d401....

why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
this topic

Repeating:
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation?
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring?

I looked at a few links and didn't find either. Just some opinions based
on who knows what.

Where is insurance actuarial data on fires caused by K&T. The insurance
company in Maine didn't produce any.

IMHO insurance limitations on K&T are just the latest form of redlining.

Why are electricians on this newsgroup far less paranoid about K&T than
you are?

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.

exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?

a bad solder joint could be about to start a fire but be invisible
buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the
hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.

my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.

typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of
extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real
hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......

wrote:
On Feb 7, 4:31 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:01�pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
definetely never insulate anywhere near it, thats a real fire risk
The only links I remember on K&T (originally posted by Phil Munro) ahttp://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190
is a report to the Illinois Department of Commerce and Community Affairs
on adding building insulation around existing K&T wiring. No record of
hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that had
insulation added around them. (Larry Seekon, whose comments are quoted
was head electrical inspector in Minneapolis.)
http://web.archive.org/web/200408250...ine.gov/pfr/in...
� orhttp://tinyurl.com/297uk7
is the record of a complaint to the Maine state Bureau of Insurance by a
homeowner against an insurance company. The insurance company denied
renewal of a policy based on K&T wiring. The insurance company was
ordered to renew the policy because the insurance company "provided no
justification for its position that knob and tube wiring per se
automatically provides grounds for nonrenewal".
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation? The Illinois investigation couldn't find a hazard but you
must have better information than Illinois had.
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring? The
insurance company in Maine couldn't produce evidence of a hazard, but
you must have better information than the insurance company had.
I eagerly await your reply.
well heres the real world discussion of K&T
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?...f08fc1bbc8d401...
why does no one follow the link I poted earlier, or even the
discussion of a bunch of people reporting real worlds experiences on
this topic
Repeating:
Where are your links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with
insulation?
Where are your links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring?

I looked at a few links and didn't find either. Just some opinions based
on who knows what.

Where is insurance actuarial data on fires caused by K&T. The insurance
company in Maine didn't produce any.

IMHO insurance limitations on K&T are just the latest form of redlining.

Why are electricians on this newsgroup far less paranoid about K&T than
you are?

--
bud--

it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.

exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?

a bad solder joint could be about to start a fire but be invisible
buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the
hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.

More FUD. Where is your data on fires started by K&T.


my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.

There may or may not be boxes. I presume underpowering means not enough
outlets.

typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of
extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real
hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......

Not enough outlets is not unique to K&T. If there are not enough outlets
add more.

Still missing:
Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.

--
bud--

RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
...
Terry wrote:
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:29:33 -0600, bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud--
wrote:

So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan"
switching arrangement)

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg
Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires
read a few ohms max.

Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching
arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to
neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it?

Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell
of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with
the lamp off)
.
What grounded surfaces are there near the screwshell?

I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the
travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the
light and make a proper 3-way connection.

If you find the splices, you have probably found the bad connection. The
way I read your post you want to make the K&T circuit a 'proper' 3-way.

The circuit could also be rewired with Romex as several have suggested.


I am really just beating a dead horse now. The suggestion to replace
it is, of course, the best solution.

From what I have read in the last couple of days, you can repair an
existing K&T circuit if it met the code requirements at the time. So
if BETA had a "proper" 3-way switching arrangement and a broken hot
wire, the way I see it, he could just butt splice a new piece of wire
in it's place. You can still use K&T to repair K&T.
Problems are likely to be at soldered joints. I have seen 2 failed solder
joints (one in K&T) - both were "cold joints" - defective when made.

I don't think the switching arrangement we are assuming BETA has was
ever code compliant so it would not be legal to repair it.
I have seen the Carter circuit a couple of times and it seems to come up
occasionally on this newsgroup. I suspect it was once compliant, but I
don't know. Wiring practice has changed a lot. No one has ever said
definitively it was or wasn't once compliant. Anyone know any really old
electricians?

It was first made illegal in 1920 Nec 380.2 which required three way and
four way switching to be done only in the ungrounded conductor, but of
course it continued to be used to save $$$

How interesting.

The other question, I suppose, is whether the NEC was adopted in a
jurisdiction when a house was built. It was common for jurisdictions to
have their own codes. I looked up an article in an IEEE newsletter that
said heavy pressure to adopt the NEC (and one of the major building
codes) came in the 1960s.

But the 1920 date for the NEC should be an early landmark. Thanks.

--
bud--

On Feb 7, 11:46�am, wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:34:12 -0600, bud--
wrote:

it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.

exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?

All connections in properly installed K&T are accessible.



just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not
because connections were generally made in walls and latheand
plastered
over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........

and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters
troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls
looking for a bad connection.

Still missing:
Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.

http://www.executive-homeinspections.com/?D=40- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

hey cool, heres a quote paste from this site

More importantly perhaps, some insurance companies are now refusing to
provide home owners insurance on houses with existing knob & tube
wiring.

It can not be run in or under insulation. This often happens when
outside walls or attics are insulated. Old wiring was installed in
open spaces so that it would stay cool. The insulation around the
wires was made of rubber that burns at a relatively low temperature.
If surrounded by house insulation, the wires will not cool and could
heat up enough to burn. It is important that if an old house is to be
insulated that any knob and tube wiring be re-wired first.

On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:50:37 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


Still missing:
Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.

http://www.executive-homeinspections.com/?D=40- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

hey cool, heres a quote paste from this site

More importantly perhaps, some insurance companies are now refusing to
provide home owners insurance on houses with existing knob & tube
wiring.

It can not be run in or under insulation. This often happens when
outside walls or attics are insulated. Old wiring was installed in
open spaces so that it would stay cool. The insulation around the
wires was made of rubber that burns at a relatively low temperature.
If surrounded by house insulation, the wires will not cool and could
heat up enough to burn. It is important that if an old house is to be
insulated that any knob and tube wiring be re-wired first.


I think everyone here agrees that K&T should be replaced. Just not
TODAY, like you seem to indicate.

The points you make about the problems with K&T are valid and anyone
buying/selling a house should be aware of them. We get it.

Thanks

On Feb 7, 1:02�pm, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:47:45 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Feb 7, 11:46?am, wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:34:12 -0600, bud--
wrote:

it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.

exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?

All connections in properly installed K&T are accessible.

just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not
because connections were generally made in walls and latheand
plastered
over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........

and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters
troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls
looking for a bad connection.

I did say "properly installed" knob and tube wiring. �

I had a beach house with "properly installed" knob and tube wiring and
all connections were easily accessible.

Why would you have ANY connections inside a sealed wall unless they
were at the site of an outlet? Are you some sort of hack who splices
together short lengths of scrap wire to save a small amount of money
on materials while wasting an enormous amount of money on labor to do
it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have seen homes wired with K&T where connections were some distance
from lights and outlets. fact is to provide spacing K&T uses they cant
be right together, their typical distance must be 6 inches.

so the wires to the device are soldered on near a knob, but no easy
way to see the solder job.......

my house is mostly BX it was built in 1950. in the middle of the night
i turned the light on to find my lost pillow and got a shower of
sparks from the fixture right on the bed. scared me a lot.

upon disection found the insulation to the light socket failed
touching a grounded fixture.

needless to say all those fixtures were replaced, this about 10 years
ago.

wrote in message
news
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:34:12 -0600, bud--
wrote:


it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.

exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?


All connections in properly installed K&T are accessible.


a bad solder joint could be about to start a fire but be invisible
buried behind plaster wall........ the electrician could be on the
hook for fire costs, having said it was safe.

More FUD. Where is your data on fires started by K&T.


my big issue with K&T is the lack of boxes, and underpowering.

There may or may not be boxes. I presume underpowering means not enough
outlets.

typically K&T had one outlet per bedroom. today that leads to tons of
extension cords, and they are a definite hazard. I have seen some real
hack jobs with extension cords in such rooms......

Not enough outlets is not unique to K&T. If there are not enough outlets
add more.

Still missing:
Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.

http://www.executive-homeinspections.com/?D=40

There was no requirement for K&T splices to be accessible, only that they
be made by solder wrapped with tape, or K&T connectors, and supports were
required near each splice. The idea was that a bad splice wouldn't be up
against a wood beam, so a bad connection wouldn't make fire eminent, except
of course in the mind of Hallerb

I've never found ANY connections that weren't in an attic or basement. In
fact, there would be no reason to make a connection in a wall behind plaster
and lath, any more than there's a reason to do it with romex.

s


wrote in message
...
On Feb 7, 11:46?am, wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:34:12 -0600, bud--
wrote:

it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.

exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?

All connections in properly installed K&T are accessible.



just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not
because connections were generally made in walls and latheand
plastered
over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........

and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters
troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls
looking for a bad connection.

if they are properly fused, there's no heat . So one cannot blame the
insulation. One can only blame over fusing or no fusing. And in these
cases, they'll overheat and burst into flames with or without insulation.
And as a matter of fact, with fire retardant cellulose, they'd probably be
safer, because they wouldn't have access to oxygen.

s


wrote in message
...

Still missing:
Links that show a hazard of K&T wiring in contact with insulation.
Links that show the fire hazard of K&T wiring.

http://www.executive-homeinspections.com/?D=40- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

hey cool, heres a quote paste from this site

More importantly perhaps, some insurance companies are now refusing to
provide home owners insurance on houses with existing knob & tube
wiring.

It can not be run in or under insulation. This often happens when
outside walls or attics are insulated. Old wiring was installed in
open spaces so that it would stay cool. The insulation around the
wires was made of rubber that burns at a relatively low temperature.
If surrounded by house insulation, the wires will not cool and could
heat up enough to burn. It is important that if an old house is to be
insulated that any knob and tube wiring be re-wired first.

No, i've removed it from the rentals we have and rewired them. As for my
own place, it was built in 1877 but not wired until the early fifties. All
cloth covered romex. I've removed all that also. Believe me, I have a big
pile of it in the back waiting to be burned.

s


wrote in message
...

i bet you have K&T covered with insulation..........

and are burying your head in the sand over this as a known hazard

How often were you tearing down walls looking for them?

It was comon for splices to be in the walls. Unless you were tearing
the walls down how would you know?


On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:42:11 -0600, "S. Barker"
wrote:

I've never found ANY connections that weren't in an attic or basement. In
fact, there would be no reason to make a connection in a wall behind plaster
and lath, any more than there's a reason to do it with romex.

s


wrote in message
...
On Feb 7, 11:46?am, wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 10:34:12 -0600, bud--
wrote:

it would be interesting to try to hire the electricians here to
inspect K&T.

exactly how does someone inspect something they cant see?

All connections in properly installed K&T are accessible.



just how, have you ever wqorked on or around K&T apparently not
because connections were generally made in walls and latheand
plastered
over. no boxes at connections in most cases.........

and before you claim i dont know, do note one of the posters
troubleshooting this problem reported making a buch of holes in walls
looking for a bad connection.