Knob and Tube BETA-33
Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working.
Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
Terry, has he been able to determine if he has a hot leg and a neutral leg?
"Terry" wrote in message ... Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
You can find out what I know by reading his comments to this thread
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...0356a9a4a064a6 He says no wire is hot at any box, and the light has never worked. He is using an inductance pocket tester. I just learned he has phoned the wires out in the past with a continuity tester. On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:20:04 -0500, "RBM" wrote: Terry, has he been able to determine if he has a hot leg and a neutral leg? "Terry" wrote in message .. . Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
Under the circumstances, I would abandon the circuit and run new cables to
each location "Terry" wrote in message ... You can find out what I know by reading his comments to this thread http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...0356a9a4a064a6 He says no wire is hot at any box, and the light has never worked. He is using an inductance pocket tester. I just learned he has phoned the wires out in the past with a continuity tester. On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:20:04 -0500, "RBM" wrote: Terry, has he been able to determine if he has a hot leg and a neutral leg? "Terry" wrote in message . .. Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
"Terry" wrote in message ... Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. You seem to have it figured correctly. From the postings, I am not sure whether the OP is missing a hot feed to one of the switches or whether he is missing a neutral feed to the light. These can be verified by connecting a long wire to a hot or neutral in a known working circuit and testing for power between the extension wire and the wires in the problem area. One common problem with electrical troubleshooting for me is that people tend to say they do or do not have power at or on a certain wire. Power never is present at one wire, only between two wires and you need to know which two wires are being checked. And, of course, using a DVM instead of a test light just confuses the issue even more. Don Young |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 1, 10:45�pm, "Don Young" wrote:
"Terry" wrote in message ... Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. �I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. �(knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. �That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. �Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. You seem to have it figured correctly. From the postings, I am not sure whether the OP is missing a hot feed to one of the switches or whether he is missing a neutral feed to the light. These can be verified by connecting a long wire to a hot or neutral in a known working circuit and testing for power between the extension wire and the wires in the problem area. One common problem with electrical troubleshooting for me is that people tend to say they do or do not have power at or on a certain wire. Power never is present at one wire, only between two wires and you need to know which two wires are being checked. And, of course, using a DVM instead of a test light just confuses the issue even more. Don Young- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - just replace all the wiring, running a new line back to the breaker box |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
Thanks Terry for starting this thread.
I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday. Between now and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a flashlight. I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from when I was working on it before. But I have to take one more board up to access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that today. I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- start over and run a whole new circuit. But, since it's a puzzle right now, I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle. "Terry" wrote in message ... Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too.
To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you are removing now, though. You might get lucky and find an easy fix. How have you been living? :) On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote: Thanks Terry for starting this thread. I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday. Between now and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a flashlight. I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from when I was working on it before. But I have to take one more board up to access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that today. I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- start over and run a whole new circuit. But, since it's a puzzle right now, I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle. "Terry" wrote in message .. . Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. (knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring...
it might bring a visit by the company but thats better than finding out after a fire |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 2, 9:36*pm, " wrote:
call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring... it might bring a visit by the company but thats better than finding out after a fire My homeowner's insurance company already knows I have knob and tube wiring. It was listed on my application for insurance. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
(From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups -
yuck) This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found: I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket. At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1, 2, and 3. At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the upstairs 3-way as number 4. At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch. On Feb 2, 7:48*pm, Terry wrote: Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too. To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you are removing now, though. You might get lucky and find an easy fix. * How have you been living? :) On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote: Thanks Terry for starting this thread. I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday. Between now and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a flashlight. I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from when I was working on it before. *But I have to take one more board up to access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that today. I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- * start over and run a whole new circuit. *But, since it's a puzzle right now, I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle. "Terry" wrote in message .. . Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. *I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. *(knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. *That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. *Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 3, 12:20�pm, Terry wrote:
I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the proper way to repair knob and tube. �The more I read about it, the less confident I feel about doing anything to it. If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere else then it sounds like the light can be fixed. If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake wiring the lights to begin with. � This sketch sounds like what you have. http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light. Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches and the other wire from the other switch to the light. Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a better solution or point out a flaw in my logic. On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:08:19 -0800 (PST), wrote: (From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups - yuck) This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found: I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket. At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1, 2, and 3. At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). �I numbered the third wire on the upstairs 3-way as number 4. At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. �Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch. On Feb 2, 7:48�pm, Terry wrote: Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too. To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you are removing now, though. You might get lucky and find an easy fix. � How have you been living? :) On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote: Thanks Terry for starting this thread. I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday. Between now and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a flashlight. I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from when I was working on it before. �But I have to take one more board up to access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that today. I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- � start over and run a whole new circuit. �But, since it's a puzzle right now, I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle. "Terry" wrote in message .. . Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. �I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. �(knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. �That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. �Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure homes with it. a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100 years old. how many appliances last a 100 years? |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
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Knob and Tube BETA-33
wrote in message ... On Feb 3, 12:20?pm, Terry wrote: I was trying to find some guidelines by searching the web on the proper way to repair knob and tube. ?The more I read about it, the less confident I feel about doing anything to it. If you can safety get a hot and a neutral to the light from somewhere else then it sounds like the light can be fixed. If your readings are correct, then the electrician made a mistake wiring the lights to begin with. ? This sketch sounds like what you have. http://i26.tinypic.com/nvysuc.jpg You should connect the (new) neutral to the screw shell of the light. Connect the (new) hot to one of the wires going to one of the switches and the other wire from the other switch to the light. Maybe someone with some real K&T experience can jump in and offer a better solution or point out a flaw in my logic. On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 07:08:19 -0800 (PST), wrote: (From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups - yuck) This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found: I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket. At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1, 2, and 3. At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). ?I numbered the third wire on the upstairs 3-way as number 4. At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. ?Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch. On Feb 2, 7:48?pm, Terry wrote: Yeah I think a whole new circuit sounds best too. To run a new circuit, you may still have to remove the same boards you are removing now, though. You might get lucky and find an easy fix. ? How have you been living? :) On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:15:45 -0500, "BETA-33" wrote: Thanks Terry for starting this thread. I'll have to check the various suggestions out a little more on Tuesday. Between now and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside, and I want to be able to see everything with and without the power on, and without having to use a flashlight. I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from when I was working on it before. ?But I have to take one more board up to access directly above the light fixture, and I didn't have time to do that today. I have a hunch that I'm going to end up doing as some have suggested -- ? start over and run a whole new circuit. ?But, since it's a puzzle right now, I want to get better access to the light fixture from the attic above, and try to see if I can find a solution to the puzzle. "Terry" wrote in message .. . Anyone care to help BETA-33 get his hallway light working. Here is what he says he has with no power on anything. (Knob & Tube) Light with 2 wires S1 3-way with 3 wires S2 3-way with 3 wires I know nothing about knob and tube. ?I am assuming that at one time it worked with what he has. ?(knowing this may not be true) So.......... The light would have to contain the neutral (coming from anywhere) and a wire coming from S2 S2 will have the wire going to the light and 2 wires coming from S1 S1 will have 2 wires going to S2 and a dead wire that should be coming from a source (coming from anywhere) Does this sound right? I would think he could look in the attic and be able to see the wire going from the light to S2 So he should also be able to see the two wires going from S1 to S2. That leaves the third wire coming from S1. ?That wire should be the one going to a power source. http://i29.tinypic.com/draz9h.jpg This sketch is a common arrangement. ?Maybe you will have something similar and can tell where the red wire is going.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - K&T is best replaced few DIYers have the tools and expertise to do it exactly right, and few electricians will do anything to it for liability reasons, plus many insurance companies dont want to insure homes with it. a electrical system is really a appliance, thats now probably a 100 years old. how many appliances last a 100 years? Yea, that's it, it's kinda like a toaster, or maybe a percolator.... I get it now |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 3, 12:32�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote: call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring... ... If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap. -- today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay |
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Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 3, 11:52Â*pm, dpb wrote:
wrote: On Feb 3, 12:32�pm, dpb wrote: wrote: call your homeowners insurance company see if they cover K&T wiring... ... If they wrote the policy, they cover it...quit the d---'d FUD crap. today insurance companies go out of their way to not pay off, and some people dont inform their insurers of risks till a fire occurs, then insurance researches the owners activities, and occasionally doesnt pay Unless the homeowner deliberately conceals a situation, there's no basis for not paying the claim. You've been afforded the opportunity to previously document a single verifiable case of the above problem. It is nothing but FUD. -- shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, so insurance companies now call it flood damage and refuse to pay, saying the flood that went with the storm did the real damage.......... even 10 years ago insurance was dependable, pay the premium, relax they pay. in my immediate neighborhood a main water line burst, nearly washing away a home. took out basement walls, etc. nearly totaled the home. the water companies insurance refused to pay because water was shut off within a half hour. water company is a muncipality, so it cant be sued. homeowners refused to pay too. the whole mess is in court, the family had to borrow money from family and friends to stabiilize their home. years ago such stuff didnt occur.......... now why defend K&T its obsolete, undersized, lacks grounding a basic safety issue,,,,, geez its likely a 100 years old. in that time how many times has the home got? a new roof? been repainted? new carpeting? new furnace? new hot water tank? how many new cars have owners of that home bought since K&T was new? whats it cost to replace all the K&T? perhaps 5 grand? now compare that 5 grand with one new roof............ you know no one really owns a home, since they tend to outlive people. we are really stewards of probably the most expensive thing we will ever buy. and homes wear out, and need continious repairs and upgrades. so why fight new wiring? perhaps your home is the worst on the street? with broken side walks, roof patched with tarps, and the interior a shambles? while you proudly say its fine? maintaing upgrading and taking care of your home pays off big time at home resale time, in faster sale and much more money. replacing K&T isnt money wasted, its money invested........ |
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Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 4, 9:36�am, dpb wrote:
wrote: ... shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ... No. �(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.) -- that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does whatever it can to avoid paying claims. I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised. why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets replaced on a regular basis? |
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Knob and Tube BETA-33
"dpb" wrote in message ... wrote: On Feb 4, 9:36?am, dpb wrote: wrote: ... shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ... No. ?(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.) -- that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does whatever it can to avoid paying claims. Insurance pays for what is covered -- what isn't covered isn't paid for. Some insurers are easier to work with than others--just as any other area of human interaction. I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised. Because they had nothing to do w/ the initial complaint and are a common tactic of the weak argument -- when no recourse on the subject at hand, bring in another. why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets replaced on a regular basis? Again, nothing to do w/ the question at hand... Every time I read his rediculous posts, my computer plays Twilight Zone music, I don't get it -- |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
"bud--" wrote in message
.. . wrote: If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?] Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways. Thanks. I'm going to a little more tomorrow to see what I can figure out. At this point, it's just a game -- a puzzle that I want to see if I can figure out. In the end, I do plan on rewiring the entire house -- either with me doing some (cutting holes and pulling wires) and an electrician doing all of the rest, or with an electrician doing the whole thing. But, for now, I'm having a good time trying to see if I can find where the disconnect is in the hallway light setup. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
RBM wrote:
.... Every time I read his rediculous posts, my computer plays Twilight Zone music, I don't get it Maybe you need a new roll of tin foil... -- |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:55:08 -0600, bud--
wrote: wrote: (From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups - yuck) This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found: I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket. At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1, 2, and 3. At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the upstairs 3-way as number 4. At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch. If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?] Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways. ------------- You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T. So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan" switching arrangement) http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between each switch. I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at either switch or at the light. I am starting to get a K&T fetish. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 4, 12:02�pm, "BETA-33" wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message .. . wrote: If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?] Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways. Thanks. �I'm going to a little more tomorrow to see what I can figure out. At this point, it's just a game -- a puzzle that I want to see if I can figure out. In the end, I do plan on rewiring the entire house -- either with me doing some (cutting holes and pulling wires) and an electrician doing all of the rest, or with an electrician doing the whole thing. But, for now, I'm having a good time trying to see if I can find where the disconnect is in the hallway light setup. I suspect the problem is a switch rather than a wiring connection failure. but with the connections soldered, buried in the walls it will be hard to find and may be a sign of a lareger problem.......... if a soldered connection failed perhaps more will, and the next one may overheat and cause a fire........ to the naysayersa of replace the K&T I gather you dont believe in maintaing your home. come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
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Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 4, 5:23�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote: ... come time to sell and it may be impossible for the buyer to get homeowners insurance and thus no mortage, effectively killing the sale. But it's going to have burned down by tonight, anyway, so what's the difference? Get off the BS, crap..._IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big if") and when an insurance company refuses to write coverage, it can be fixed then. �Despite your BS claims, I've yet to find any indication of any major underwriter that will not write for K&T as a blanket prohibition. � They _might_ require an inspection. I've done enough retrofits from antebellum to WWII boom time frame I've lost count and K&T wiring has _NEVER_ been an inhibition to a sale. -- My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new policies for homes with K&T..... so you wait till home sale time and K&T kills the sale? plus you may not have the bucks to rewire your entire home or pay more...... planned in advance makes rewiring more manegable. plus rewiring requires access holes in walls and cielings, so you fix up your home, K&T becomes a deal breaker, then you get to fix your home twice..... |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
Even if he has a Carter three way, he still has to have a hot leg somewhere
in the system. If he's tested with an inductive tester, that he knows is working, and gets no light, he's got an open hot leg. He should be able to check for a grounded leg using a grounded pipe or extension cord and continuity tester. Once he finds the leg that's grounded, he should be able to determine which leg should be hot, and backtrack from there "Terry" wrote in message ... On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:55:08 -0600, bud-- wrote: wrote: (From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups - yuck) This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found: I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket. At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1, 2, and 3. At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the upstairs 3-way as number 4. At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch. If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?] Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways. ------------- You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T. So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan" switching arrangement) http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between each switch. I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at either switch or at the light. I am starting to get a K&T fetish. |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
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Knob and Tube BETA-33
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Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 4, 6:43�pm, dpb wrote:
wrote: ... My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new policies for homes with K&T..... My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense corroborated no such thing... -- call a agent and ask........... please report back and remember others here have reported they couldnt get homeowners or had 6 months to replace it, or lose coverage |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires,
replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do to our automobiles. But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. It's not a viable argument. s wrote in message ... On Feb 4, 9:36?am, dpb wrote: wrote: ... shall we discuss how insurance is supposed to cover storm damage, ... No. ?(No bearing on previous FUD, but a different one.) -- that did indeed make the news not long ago, today insurance does whatever it can to avoid paying claims. I noted you made no comment on all the other related issues i raised. why should K&T last forever while everything else in the home gets replaced on a regular basis? |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
I've never even heard of one requiring an inspection. And I've bought many
houses, and most of them have at least some K&T wiring. I wasn't even asked about the wiring. I believe these phantom insurance company stories are just that, stories. s "dpb" wrote in message ... Get off the BS, crap..._IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big if") and when an insurance company refuses to write coverage, it can be fixed then. Despite your BS claims, I've yet to find any indication of any major underwriter that will not write for K&T as a blanket prohibition. They _might_ require an inspection. I've done enough retrofits from antebellum to WWII boom time frame I've lost count and K&T wiring has _NEVER_ been an inhibition to a sale. -- |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
And they won't. Because there is no such criteria from them.
s "dpb" wrote in message ... wrote: ... My local state farm agent reports state farm will write no new policies for homes with K&T..... My search of State Farm the last time you spouted this nonsense corroborated no such thing... -- |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Feb 4, 9:55�pm, "S. Barker" wrote:
We balance tires, rotate tires, change oil, grease, tune up, replace tires, replace brake pads, replace light bulbs, wax the exterior, vacuum the carpet, replace wiper blades, replace the windshield when it gets broken or pitted, change air filter, change oil filter, replenish wiper fluid, check and change automatic trans fluid, and probably a hundred other things we do to our automobiles. But, i've never heard of re-wiring one just because it got old. �It's not a viable argument. some friends got caught up, insurance required replacing K&T, rebuilding a front porch, replacing some bad sections of sidewalk, and installing a railing on outside steps. its nice you service your vehicles, do you ever replace them? do you know anyone with a vehicle as old as K&T??????? like i said would some others call state farm and ask? homeowners insurance has changed a lot in the last 10 years and those of you with K&T at home resale time you can remember this discussion when you cant sell your home........... |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
Terry wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 09:55:08 -0600, bud-- wrote: wrote: (From Beta-33,34,35 -- from a different computer using Google Groups - yuck) This probably doesn't help, but when I did the continuity check a long time ago, this is what I found: I tested for continuity with all wires disconnected at both 3-way switches and with the hallway lightbulb not in the socket. At the 3-way switch at the bottom of the steps, I numbered the 3 wires as 1, 2, and 3. At the 3-way switch at the top of the stairs, I found wires with continuity with two of the downstairs wires, and numbered them as 1 and 2 (the wires they connect with downstairs). I numbered the third wire on the upstairs 3-way as number 4. At the hallway light, I numbered the wires as 3 and 4. Number 3 has continuity with number 3 on the downstairs 3-way switch, and number 4 has continuity with number 4 on the upstairs 3-way switch. If measured right, some 3-ways were connected as your measurements indicate. Either 1 or 2 is the neutral, the other is the hot (the blue wires on Terry's diagram). The odd color on the switch goes to 3 and 4. In operation each side of the light is switched between hot and neutral. When both sides of the light were neutral, or both hot, the light is off. It is not code compliant to wire a new light this way now, but 3-ways sometimes were wired this way long ago. [Anyone know if it was ever code compliant?] Probably harder to troubleshoot because the open connection may be further away - it affects the hot feed to both 3-ways. ------------- You may have noticed halerb has a fethish about K&T. So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan" switching arrangement) http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires read a few ohms max. So he should be looking for a splice in the two wires that go between each switch. But not between the switches. A bad connection from a hot to the wiring connecting the switches. I don't know how close you have been following the thread, but he used an inductance pocket tester and has verified that no wire is hot at either switch or at the light. I believe the voltage tester uses capacitance coupling to the wire. *IF* the tester is sensitive enough to provide an indication when 3 or 4 inches from a hot wire, BETA might be able to trace the wire with the voltage tester. That requires making the dead wire hot. Kill any circuit that may possibly have originally fed the light. Bring power to the switch location with an extension cord. Connect a small light bulb (like with a pigtail socket) to the extension cord hot. Connect the other side the light bulb to wire 1 then 2. The light bulb should light up when connected to the neutral (an alternate method of finding the neutral to RBM's post). Connect the light bulb to the other wire, which should be the wire that no longer connects to the building hot. Trace the wire through the walls with the voltage tester. This has worked for me on occasion. But don't try it unless you understand how it works and the significant safety issues. And check that the voltage tester is sensitive enough (in ceilings you may need more than 4 inch sensitivity). For one K&T problem I cut at least 6 holes in a ceiling so I could insert a voltage tester and mirror to follow the wire. K&T can be a pain. I am starting to get a K&T fetish. Geez - you and hallerb could start a club. -- bud-- |
Knob and Tube BETA-33
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:40:53 -0600, bud--
wrote: So what you are saying is he could have this: (The "Lazy Susan" switching arrangement) http://i29.tinypic.com/2ebs4ck.jpg Yup. The continuity measurements fit that circuit assuming all wires read a few ohms max. Lets say we have enough information to say that this is the switching arrangement he has. (finding continuity from one of the travelers to neutral would verify this) Should he try to repair it? Having a 3-way switching arrangement like this causes the screw shell of the light fixture to be hot in two of the 4 positions. (even with the lamp off) I think the only acceptable fix would be to find the splices in the travelers and disconnect them. Then run a new hot and neutral to the light and make a proper 3-way connection. |
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