In rec.sport.football.college trijcomm sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
On Sep 18, 6:03 pm, rich hammett wrote:
In rec.sport.football.college Edward M. Kennedy sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:





"trijcomm" wrote
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.

Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.

Do you know a anything about Iran? You probably think they are
Arabs too.

Public support for reform is strong -- see the previous president
who served two terms and was very popular, especially among the
women and youth. You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush clan.

Or you could read National Geographic's last article on the place.

There is a significant Islamic law faction, but it isn't so much
anti-West as anti-Israel and anti-America. Unfortunately they
got enough power to keep it -- they started keeping reformists
from running for office in 1994.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you spout off all this misnnformation about Iran and then dare
declare,
Feel to point some out.
"Do you know anything about Iran?" Your statement about "see
the previous president" to prove your point is extremely weak, since
they went ahead and elected an anti-Jewish Hitler who wants to destroy
Jews and is doing everything he can to get the job done. Oh, I'm sure
public reform is strong -- up in the hills and mountains where they
run and hide so they can wear their hair the way they want to. Let's
be clear -- wearing hair in an "anti-Islamic manner" is far, far from
"reform." We are talking institutionalized hate here that is bound and
determined to manifest itself by the destruction of an entire state
and its supporters. Your arguments are Larouchian.
Just because some Iranians want to wipe out Israel has nothing
to do with my original assertion:
"Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey."
Btw, you don't sound any better than Iran's president.

Iran is a complicated place. You are pretty close to completely
right, and your interlocutor is nearly entirely wrong. To the
point, in fact, that he sounds a lot like somebody trying to build
up anti-semitic hate early in the 3rd Reich.

There's a lot of bad in Iran right now. There are a lot of _other_
things going on in Iran, too, and it's very interesting to actually
discover, rather than reading ignorant, hate-filled diatribes.

Umm, the ugly, hate-filled diatribes are coming from Iran.

Many of them are. Others are coming from you.

rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ Barry Goldwater: "Every good Christian should line up
\ and kick Jerry Falwell's ass."

LongRodSilver wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:07:01 -0400, "Janet"
wrote:


"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:UZTHi.2118$oc2.1417@trnddc04...

"Janet" wrote in message
...
Interesting photos, thanks.

Although I completely oppose the idea of attacking Iran--and opposed
the
invasion of Iraq--I find the choice of musical accompaniment rather
interesting, since the convert-to-Islam version of Cat Stevens came
out
in
public support of the fatwa calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie.
Not
the action of a peace activist, hmmm?


Rushdie is still alive and making public appearances. The Fatwa was a
symbolic gesture. If they were serious, he would not have lasted a
day.
Britain has a great many Muslims and I'm sure one would have gotten the
job
done.

Paul

Rushdie lived in hiding for years, protected by the British government.

The fatwa was evil, and Cat Stevens showed just how vicious he was by
publicly supporting it.



But... islime is the religion of piece.. a piece of this country and
a piece of that country..

submit or die

Submit to the love of Christ or suffer the purification of the flames.

convert or die..

Convert to Christ and still die. Convert now before we kill you so that you
can enter the kingdom of God. But we're still going to kill you regardless.
That was once known as Christian compassion. Just as Montezuma.

So about as peaceful as Christianity, actually much more so when you
consider the millions of people and civilizations wiped out by the
Spaniards, the Inquisition (what a show) our own destruction of the native
populations to clear the land for the manifest destiny (aka God's will) of
Christian settlers and of course interfaith warfare just to name a couple.
Hardly a stellar record of peace and compassion. Ever see a protestant in
an Irish pub? No? There's a reason for that.

When you look at the scope of just the numbers, well Christianity has been
far more reaching, far more destructive and far more dangerous to the world.
An undeniable fact but one always forgotten by Christians.

Paul

In rec.sport.football.college Janet sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:UZTHi.2118$oc2.1417@trnddc04...

"Janet" wrote in message
...
Interesting photos, thanks.

Although I completely oppose the idea of attacking Iran--and opposed the
invasion of Iraq--I find the choice of musical accompaniment rather
interesting, since the convert-to-Islam version of Cat Stevens came out
in
public support of the fatwa calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie. Not
the action of a peace activist, hmmm?


Rushdie is still alive and making public appearances. The Fatwa was a
symbolic gesture. If they were serious, he would not have lasted a day.
Britain has a great many Muslims and I'm sure one would have gotten the
job
done.

Rushdie lived in hiding for years, protected by the British government.

The fatwa was evil, and Cat Stevens showed just how vicious he was by
publicly supporting it.

At least the Japanese translator of the Satanic Verses was killed
as part of that campaign.

It was a symbolic gesture in the same way as Bush declaring war
on terrorism was a symbolic gesture.

rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ Barry Goldwater: "Every good Christian should line up
\ and kick Jerry Falwell's ass."

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:09:32 GMT, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:


"Janet" wrote in message
...

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:UZTHi.2118$oc2.1417@trnddc04...

"Janet" wrote in message
...
Interesting photos, thanks.

Although I completely oppose the idea of attacking Iran--and opposed
the
invasion of Iraq--I find the choice of musical accompaniment rather
interesting, since the convert-to-Islam version of Cat Stevens came out
in
public support of the fatwa calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie.
Not
the action of a peace activist, hmmm?


Rushdie is still alive and making public appearances. The Fatwa was a
symbolic gesture. If they were serious, he would not have lasted a day.
Britain has a great many Muslims and I'm sure one would have gotten the
job
done.

Paul

Rushdie lived in hiding for years, protected by the British government.

True, but he managed to appear in public quite often at events that were
planned well in advance and that it was known he would appear at them.

The fatwa was evil, and Cat Stevens showed just how vicious he was by
publicly supporting it.

I'd like to know why he did it. To be a good Muslim he could still have
said nothing. This angle of it I am not sure about.

Paul





He's publicly addressed it. should be available on the web, I don't
remember enough details to talk about it.

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 12:07 pm, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"T" wrote in message

. ..





In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
roups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.

All rational assessments claim that Iran, if they wanted to, could not
produce a weapon for 5-10 years. And from what the sources who were
right
on Iraq are saying, they do not want to and there is no evidence that
they
are. What they are doing just happens to be legal as they are a
signatory
to the UN Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty. A treaty which Israel and
India
are not signatories yet we give them nuclear technology and now even
fuel.
There is every indication that a peaceful change of government could
occur.
Don't forget that on 9-11 millions of Iranians marched in the streets of
Tehran with signs saying "we are all Americans today." Great strides
had
been taken by the moderate, pro-western, government they had at the
time.
That was all thrown into the garbage with Bush's "axis of evil" speech.
Without that speech, quite likely the moderate voices would prevail
today.
As it was all we succeeded in doing was proving that we could not be
trusted
and that is all the radicals needed to regain control.

War is coming. Of that there is no doubt. Even if the spineless
democrats
wanted to, they'd not be able to stop it. And what will come of it will
be
of global reach and will cause vast pain and misery for a long, long
time.

Paul



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you are blaming the hatred of Jews by the Iranians on Bush's
speech? Come on! A.)

They don't hate Jews. They hate Israel for the genocide it has infliced on
the Palestinians and the US for its blanket support of Israel despite Israel
violating charter after charter regarding the treatment of the Palestinians.
That is why *all* the Arab states are anti-Israel.

"All rational assessments" = all of those you
agree with since the irrational ones, of course, are the ones with
much shorter time periods that you would rather not believe. B.)

Even our own CIA says years and not months. At the current rate of
enrichment they are years from achieving the quantity they need. Even our
own IA says there is more than enough time to work with them. And there is
every indication they want us to. The reason we have not is this: the US
has stated that before any substantive talks begin, they much give
everything up. So they have to give up their bargaining chip to begin
bargaining. You explain just how that works because I can't. Kind of like
going to Vegas and just giving the casinos all your money because you can't
win anyway.

Unfortunately, the Iranians themselves are contradicting your
statements regarding what they have and what their attentions are. I
know you would rather hide your head in the sand and hope it will all
go away, but the Iranian leadership has said many, many times that
they want to get rid of Israel.

Actually, no they have not said it in those terms. They have predicted
Israel will fall due to its own crimes against humanity They have also said
that Israel has brought it on themselves. That is not the same as them
saying they were going to wipe out Israel. They could not, they would have
to also fight the US, Britain, Australia and most of Europe who have signed
pacts to protect the country. Does Iran know this - yes they do.

Their philosophy calls for it and even
dictates their salvation in an apocalypse scenario. C.)

Israel has an estimated 60 nuclear bombs each 10 times more powerful than
the Hiroshima bomb. Who is the nuclear threat? Who can terrorize who? Do
you think Iranians are suicidal? Do you think they don't know all this?
They do. If they launch one feeble warhead, they will be literally
annihilated and they are not stupid, they know it.

Umm, are you
saying it's legal for them to make a nuclear bomb?

Every US and foreign agency in the busienss of knowing these things
including the IAEA has inspected their facilities and continues to do so and
has stated that there is no sign of any work being conducted to produce
weapons grade materials. Iran has allowed full and open inspections. These
are the same agencies that said Iraq had no nuclear program and no WMDs and
were correct. Who do you trust?

All "rational"
sources have said they are trying to get one.

Nope, exactly none. Well Bush, yes. But he's about it.

Why do you think the N.
Koreans are running around there? For the pleasant scenery? D.)

There is emerging info that N. Korea had no role in the allegations about
sales to Syria. It is looking like *all* that NK had was used up in their
botched test earlier. Which is why they are now giving it up. Why bomb
Iran and not NK? NK actually had material and technology yet we negotiated
a settlement. No oil. NK did not have oil. Just a coincidence, I am sure
that Iran - oh does.

Just
remember who elected their president in the first place.

Ahmadinajad is not a real president. He has exactly no power at all. He is
a figurehead. He gives speeches. He talks to the citizenry. He could not
start a war if he wanted to.

You've fallen for the rhetoric and the lies. Just like I am sure you did
with Iraq. Once again you are trusting the people that lied us into the
first mess and like deja vu all over again they are repeating it almost
verbatim. And it seems to be working if you are typical.

Paul

"Janet" wrote in message
...

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:Cx0Ii.7345$A72.1397@trnddc08...

LongRodSilver wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:07:01 -0400, "Janet"
wrote:


"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:UZTHi.2118$oc2.1417@trnddc04...

"Janet" wrote in message
...
Interesting photos, thanks.

Although I completely oppose the idea of attacking Iran--and
opposed
the
invasion of Iraq--I find the choice of musical accompaniment rather
interesting, since the convert-to-Islam version of Cat Stevens came
out
in
public support of the fatwa calling for the murder of Salman
Rushdie.
Not
the action of a peace activist, hmmm?


Rushdie is still alive and making public appearances. The Fatwa was
a
symbolic gesture. If they were serious, he would not have lasted a
day.
Britain has a great many Muslims and I'm sure one would have gotten
the
job
done.

Paul

Rushdie lived in hiding for years, protected by the British
government.

The fatwa was evil, and Cat Stevens showed just how vicious he was by
publicly supporting it.



But... islime is the religion of piece.. a piece of this country and
a piece of that country..

submit or die

Submit to the love of Christ or suffer the purification of the flames.

convert or die..

Convert to Christ and still die. Convert now before we kill you so that
you
can enter the kingdom of God. But we're still going to kill you
regardless.
That was once known as Christian compassion. Just as Montezuma.

So about as peaceful as Christianity, actually much more so when you
consider the millions of people and civilizations wiped out by the
Spaniards, the Inquisition (what a show) our own destruction of the
native
populations to clear the land for the manifest destiny (aka God's will)
of
Christian settlers and of course interfaith warfare just to name a
couple.
Hardly a stellar record of peace and compassion. Ever see a protestant
in
an Irish pub? No? There's a reason for that.

When you look at the scope of just the numbers, well Christianity has
been
far more reaching, far more destructive and far more dangerous to the
world.
An undeniable fact but one always forgotten by Christians.

Paul

Who said anything about Christianity? I'm not a Christian, and certainly
won't defend the numerous odious things that have been done in its name.

Pointing out that evil has been done in the name of other religions
doesn't
excuse the action of Cat Stevens or other fanatics of any stripe.


He may be a fanatic, I don't know. But it is absolutely unfair and also
impossible to examine the intentions of any people based on their religion
without looking inward to one's own. And in the US that would be
Christianity. You want peaceful religions look to the Buddhists and the
Hindu. They've had their moments, but it is miniscule compared to
Christianity's history. The Koran borrows much from the Torah - the two
are amazingly alike. A lot of the things allegedly evil about Islam are
also found in Judaism's writings. But we don't hold that against the Jews
as a matter of course, we judge them on a different level. If we held them
to the same standard as we do Islam well that would be refreshing. Israel
can be an awfully had country to like sometimes. Seems the old adage about
the oppressed eventually becoming the oppressor is alive and well.

Paul

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote





http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.

Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.

Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only exists to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear in mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had a taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we installed, so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that tune in an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all Shia Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or religious
strife to divide them.

The road to war is for the insane and that unfortunately is who we have in
the drivers seat.

Paul

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

. ..





In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a life not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.


What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote





http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.

Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only exists to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear in mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had a taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we installed, so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that tune in an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all Shia Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or religious
strife to divide them.

Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian. According to the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%

ALV


The road to war is for the insane and that unfortunately is who we have in
the drivers seat.

Paul

"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote





http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.

Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that tune in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or
religious
strife to divide them.

Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian. According to the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%


OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?

On Sep 18, 11:59 pm, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

...

In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a life not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.

What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So US = Western World? Well, one thing is for certain -- the US
certainly doesn't give the world Jewish hatred. As I recall, whenever
there is a huge catastrophe, the US is usually the first ones in to
offer whatever help the stricken nation will receive. And they poor
money into poor nations asking for nothing in return. The US is one of
the most generous nations on earth and they get very little back in
the form of gratitude. But they still do it anyway. And if the US
stopped doing it, you'd be the first one screaming about it and
defending Jew haters. Yep, sounds sensible to me. Yeah, right.

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote





http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that tune in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or
religious
strife to divide them.
Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian. According to the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%


OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?



Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish,
Christian, and Baha'i) 2%

ALV

On Sep 18, 9:07 pm, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:
Disculpa Senora trijcomm, pero did you really mime the following on
9/18/2007 9:59 PM???





On Sep 18, 5:19 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Do you know a anything about Iran? You probably think they are
Arabs too.
Public support for reform is strong -- see the previous president
who served two terms and was very popular, especially among the
women and youth. You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush clan.
Or you could read National Geographic's last article on the place.
There is a significant Islamic law faction, but it isn't so much
anti-West as anti-Israel and anti-America. Unfortunately they
got enough power to keep it -- they started keeping reformists
from running for office in 1994.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So you spout off all this misnnformation about Iran and then dare
declare,
Feel to point some out.

"Do you know anything about Iran?" Your statement about "see
the previous president" to prove your point is extremely weak, since
they went ahead and elected an anti-Jewish Hitler who wants to destroy
Jews and is doing everything he can to get the job done. Oh, I'm sure
public reform is strong -- up in the hills and mountains where they
run and hide so they can wear their hair the way they want to. Let's
be clear -- wearing hair in an "anti-Islamic manner" is far, far from
"reform." We are talking institutionalized hate here that is bound and
determined to manifest itself by the destruction of an entire state
and its supporters. Your arguments are Larouchian.
Just because some Iranians want to wipe out Israel has nothing
to do with my original assertion:

"Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey."

Btw, you don't sound any better than Iran's president.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are sadly, sadly mistaken. These people got what they want. You
don't seem to understand the culture of the Iranians.

Just out of curiosity, how many Iranians have you actually met or spoken
to? And please enlighten us - what exactly is this "culture of the
Iranians" that you refer to?

--
I'm so hip I have trouble seeing over my pelvis.
I'm so cool you can keep a side of meat in me for months.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As a matter of fact, I have spoken to several who were fortunate
enough to get out of Dodge. As for the culture, I don't think the West
has any idea of how important religion is to the Muslim world because
the West sees it in a very, very minor role in their lives. Thing is,
religion is the biggest thing in the lives of Muslims such as the
Iranians. They may walk around with the haircuts, music and watch
movies, but they are bowing to Mecca five times a day. Until you can
grasp the importance of religion in the lives of Iran today and until
you can understand how it is THE overwhelming force in Iran, then you
have no idea of what you are talking about. The Iranians don't see
life as the West sees it. You just don't understand why the Iranians
go ballistic when somebody draws a caricature of Mohammad, or how they
stone people for committing adultery, or how they would kill any
Muslim who converts to Christianity. Until you understand that, you
are lost.

"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote





http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that tune
in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or
religious
strife to divide them.
Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian. According to
the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%


OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?



Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish,
Christian, and Baha'i) 2%


I'd say with 51 guaranteed in the bag and the other 49% being filled from
the Shia majority alone (Persians not withstanding), that my money is on
extreme national unity in a time of crisis. They may not all be Persians,
they may not all be Shia, but I think they see themselves as all Iranians.
From what I know, they seem to get along pretty well considering the part of
the world they are in.

In short, they'd be a very hard force to deal with and certainly one
impossible to contain seeing as how we can't even secure a 2 mile road in
Baghdad.

Paul

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:59 pm, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

...

In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a life not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the
separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.

What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So US = Western World? Well, one thing is for certain -- the US
certainly doesn't give the world Jewish hatred. As I recall, whenever
there is a huge catastrophe, the US is usually the first ones in to
offer whatever help the stricken nation will receive. And they poor
money into poor nations asking for nothing in return. The US is one of
the most generous nations on earth and they get very little back in
the form of gratitude. But they still do it anyway. And if the US
stopped doing it, you'd be the first one screaming about it and
defending Jew haters. Yep, sounds sensible to me. Yeah, right.


OK, are you aware of how many people in this country think the Holocaust is
a myth? I'll give you a hint, it is more than the whole population of Iran.

And as for generosity, nope. Looked at as a percentage of per capita
income, or ever GDP, the US is far down the list. Canada, France, GB,
Japan - all higher than the US.

Paul

On Sep 19, 12:24 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message

...





Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that tune
in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or
religious
strife to divide them.
Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian. According to
the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%

OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?

Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish,
Christian, and Baha'i) 2%

I'd say with 51 guaranteed in the bag and the other 49% being filled from
the Shia majority alone (Persians not withstanding), that my money is on
extreme national unity in a time of crisis. They may not all be Persians,
they may not all be Shia, but I think they see themselves as all Iranians.
From what I know, they seem to get along pretty well considering the part of
the world they are in.

In short, they'd be a very hard force to deal with and certainly one
impossible to contain seeing as how we can't even secure a 2 mile road in
Baghdad.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Seeing that the US has contained something like 15 of the 18 provinces
in Iraq, I beg to differ. And there are some parts of the US where
authorities can't secure a two-mile road. So what's your point?

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 3:05 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote





http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.

Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And so they went out and elected who they did as their president. I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.

Do you know a anything about Iran? You probably think they are
Arabs too.

Public support for reform is strong -- see the previous president
who served two terms and was very popular, especially among the
women and youth. You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush clan.

Or you could read National Geographic's last article on the place.

There is a significant Islamic law faction, but it isn't so much
anti-West as anti-Israel and anti-America. Unfortunately they
got enough power to keep it -- they started keeping reformists
from running for office in 1994.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you spout off all this misnnformation about Iran and then dare
declare, "Do you know anything about Iran?" Your statement about "see
the previous president" to prove your point is extremely weak, since
they went ahead and elected an anti-Jewish Hitler who wants to destroy
Jews and is doing everything he can to get the job done. Oh, I'm sure
public reform is strong -- up in the hills and mountains where they
run and hide so they can wear their hair the way they want to. Let's
be clear -- wearing hair in an "anti-Islamic manner" is far, far from
"reform." We are talking institutionalized hate here that is bound and
determined to manifest itself by the destruction of an entire state
and its supporters. Your arguments are Larouchian.


You can't seem to tell a Jew from a Zionist. I rather think you need to
work on some shortcomings in the knowledge area.

So you'd drop nukes on a country so people could wear their hair freely? Is
that the US's gift to the world? Did it ever occur to you that the whole
world has its own values ands that what is a value in one place is seen as
immoral someplace else? You'd have us inflict our own lifestyle on the
entire world, at the point of a gun or threat of complete devastation?

Doesn't that sound a tad, oh I dunno - imperialistic?

Paul

On Sep 19, 12:28 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 18, 11:59 pm, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

...

In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a life not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the
separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.

What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So US = Western World? Well, one thing is for certain -- the US
certainly doesn't give the world Jewish hatred. As I recall, whenever
there is a huge catastrophe, the US is usually the first ones in to
offer whatever help the stricken nation will receive. And they poor
money into poor nations asking for nothing in return. The US is one of
the most generous nations on earth and they get very little back in
the form of gratitude. But they still do it anyway. And if the US
stopped doing it, you'd be the first one screaming about it and
defending Jew haters. Yep, sounds sensible to me. Yeah, right.

OK, are you aware of how many people in this country think the Holocaust is
a myth? I'll give you a hint, it is more than the whole population of Iran.

And as for generosity, nope. Looked at as a percentage of per capita
income, or ever GDP, the US is far down the list. Canada, France, GB,
Japan - all higher than the US.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What country are you talking about where they believe the Holocaust is
a myth? That means nothing since the Flat Earth Society is still
around. Big difference, though -- people in the US who believe the
Holocaust is a myth are crackpots who never would get elected to
office. That isn't the case in Iran. As far as the GDP goes, for that
matter, I'm sure Sri Lanka and Bangladesh rank up there as well. But
when it comes to money and boots on the ground, the US is always
there. Even for Iran when they go through a disaster.

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 19, 12:24 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message

...





Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under
him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only
exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear
in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had
a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we
installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that
tune
in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even
be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all
Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or
religious
strife to divide them.
Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian. According
to
the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%

OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?

Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish,
Christian, and Baha'i) 2%

I'd say with 51 guaranteed in the bag and the other 49% being filled
from
the Shia majority alone (Persians not withstanding), that my money is on
extreme national unity in a time of crisis. They may not all be
Persians,
they may not all be Shia, but I think they see themselves as all
Iranians.
From what I know, they seem to get along pretty well considering the
part of
the world they are in.

In short, they'd be a very hard force to deal with and certainly one
impossible to contain seeing as how we can't even secure a 2 mile road
in
Baghdad.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Seeing that the US has contained something like 15 of the 18 provinces
in Iraq, I beg to differ. And there are some parts of the US where
authorities can't secure a two-mile road. So what's your point?


Where'd you get that number from? The latest count is that the only secure
areas are in the Kurdish north, where the Kurds are taking care of
themselves. The rest is completely out of control.

Did you know what happened top Petraeus's office in Anbar when he was away
delivering his speech? It was blown to smithereens.

Paul

"trijcomm" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 19, 12:28 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 18, 11:59 pm, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

...

In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a life
not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the
separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies
you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.

What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So US = Western World? Well, one thing is for certain -- the US
certainly doesn't give the world Jewish hatred. As I recall, whenever
there is a huge catastrophe, the US is usually the first ones in to
offer whatever help the stricken nation will receive. And they poor
money into poor nations asking for nothing in return. The US is one of
the most generous nations on earth and they get very little back in
the form of gratitude. But they still do it anyway. And if the US
stopped doing it, you'd be the first one screaming about it and
defending Jew haters. Yep, sounds sensible to me. Yeah, right.

OK, are you aware of how many people in this country think the Holocaust
is
a myth? I'll give you a hint, it is more than the whole population of
Iran.

And as for generosity, nope. Looked at as a percentage of per capita
income, or ever GDP, the US is far down the list. Canada, France, GB,
Japan - all higher than the US.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What country are you talking about where they believe the Holocaust is
a myth? That means nothing since the Flat Earth Society is still
around. Big difference, though -- people in the US who believe the
Holocaust is a myth are crackpots who never would get elected to
office. That isn't the case in Iran. As far as the GDP goes, for that
matter, I'm sure Sri Lanka and Bangladesh rank up there as well. But
when it comes to money and boots on the ground, the US is always
there. Even for Iran when they go through a disaster.


The percentage of people in this country that do not believe the Holocaust
happened is about 35%. That means we are talking about 105 million people.
Iran has a population of 71 million and I wager most of them are not
deniers.

Thailand tsunami - US 15 million dollars in relief money. What was needed
was 2 billion dollars. Where did it come from? Not the US.

Paul

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 9:07 pm, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:
Disculpa Senora trijcomm, pero did you really mime the following on
9/18/2007 9:59 PM???





On Sep 18, 5:19 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Do you know a anything about Iran? You probably think they are
Arabs too.
Public support for reform is strong -- see the previous president
who served two terms and was very popular, especially among the
women and youth. You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush clan.
Or you could read National Geographic's last article on the place.
There is a significant Islamic law faction, but it isn't so much
anti-West as anti-Israel and anti-America. Unfortunately they
got enough power to keep it -- they started keeping reformists
from running for office in 1994.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So you spout off all this misnnformation about Iran and then dare
declare,
Feel to point some out.

"Do you know anything about Iran?" Your statement about "see
the previous president" to prove your point is extremely weak, since
they went ahead and elected an anti-Jewish Hitler who wants to
destroy
Jews and is doing everything he can to get the job done. Oh, I'm
sure
public reform is strong -- up in the hills and mountains where they
run and hide so they can wear their hair the way they want to. Let's
be clear -- wearing hair in an "anti-Islamic manner" is far, far
from
"reform." We are talking institutionalized hate here that is bound
and
determined to manifest itself by the destruction of an entire state
and its supporters. Your arguments are Larouchian.
Just because some Iranians want to wipe out Israel has nothing
to do with my original assertion:

"Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey."

Btw, you don't sound any better than Iran's president.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are sadly, sadly mistaken. These people got what they want. You
don't seem to understand the culture of the Iranians.

Just out of curiosity, how many Iranians have you actually met or spoken
to? And please enlighten us - what exactly is this "culture of the
Iranians" that you refer to?

--
I'm so hip I have trouble seeing over my pelvis.
I'm so cool you can keep a side of meat in me for months.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

As a matter of fact, I have spoken to several who were fortunate
enough to get out of Dodge. As for the culture, I don't think the West
has any idea of how important religion is to the Muslim world because
the West sees it in a very, very minor role in their lives. Thing is,
religion is the biggest thing in the lives of Muslims such as the
Iranians. They may walk around with the haircuts, music and watch
movies, but they are bowing to Mecca five times a day. Until you can
grasp the importance of religion in the lives of Iran today and until
you can understand how it is THE overwhelming force in Iran, then you
have no idea of what you are talking about. The Iranians don't see
life as the West sees it. You just don't understand why the Iranians
go ballistic when somebody draws a caricature of Mohammad, or how they
stone people for committing adultery, or how they would kill any
Muslim who converts to Christianity. Until you understand that, you
are lost.


You know the bible calls for the death of people who eat shellfish, right.
It also calls for the death of a woman who prepares food during her period.
It allows you to sell you daughter and you can even sleep with her if your
wife won't put out. How about the part where working on a Sunday is a crime
punishable by death? How about a lot of things the Bible demands and nobody
does? You think you'd like living under Biblical "law?" Guess again.

Great porn in the Bible. Well I should say erotica. You know, the stuff
you've been told is a sin? Even between a married couple? I mean that
Solomon stuff - whew! I am getting the vapors just thinking about it.

Honey ??????????????? You awake?

Paul

On Sep 19, 12:50 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 19, 12:24 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message

...

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"T" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under
him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only
exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government. The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular. Bear
in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have had
a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we
installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that
tune
in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot even
be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all
Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic or
religious
strife to divide them.
Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian. According
to
the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%

OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?

Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian, Jewish,
Christian, and Baha'i) 2%

I'd say with 51 guaranteed in the bag and the other 49% being filled
from
the Shia majority alone (Persians not withstanding), that my money is on
extreme national unity in a time of crisis. They may not all be
Persians,
they may not all be Shia, but I think they see themselves as all
Iranians.
From what I know, they seem to get along pretty well considering the
part of
the world they are in.

In short, they'd be a very hard force to deal with and certainly one
impossible to contain seeing as how we can't even secure a 2 mile road
in
Baghdad.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Seeing that the US has contained something like 15 of the 18 provinces
in Iraq, I beg to differ. And there are some parts of the US where
authorities can't secure a two-mile road. So what's your point?

Where'd you get that number from? The latest count is that the only secure
areas are in the Kurdish north, where the Kurds are taking care of
themselves. The rest is completely out of control.

Did you know what happened top Petraeus's office in Anbar when he was away
delivering his speech? It was blown to smithereens.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Frank Pallone, congressman from NJ, says 14 of 18. US Dept. of Defense
says 15. Take your pick. Now, I suppose you would argue that none of
them are secure because a shooting or robbery took place took place. I
guess that means the city of Las Vegas is not secured either.

On Sep 19, 12:57 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

oups.com...





On Sep 19, 12:28 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Sep 18, 11:59 pm, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

...

In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a life
not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the
separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies
you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.

What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So US = Western World? Well, one thing is for certain -- the US
certainly doesn't give the world Jewish hatred. As I recall, whenever
there is a huge catastrophe, the US is usually the first ones in to
offer whatever help the stricken nation will receive. And they poor
money into poor nations asking for nothing in return. The US is one of
the most generous nations on earth and they get very little back in
the form of gratitude. But they still do it anyway. And if the US
stopped doing it, you'd be the first one screaming about it and
defending Jew haters. Yep, sounds sensible to me. Yeah, right.

OK, are you aware of how many people in this country think the Holocaust
is
a myth? I'll give you a hint, it is more than the whole population of
Iran.

And as for generosity, nope. Looked at as a percentage of per capita
income, or ever GDP, the US is far down the list. Canada, France, GB,
Japan - all higher than the US.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What country are you talking about where they believe the Holocaust is
a myth? That means nothing since the Flat Earth Society is still
around. Big difference, though -- people in the US who believe the
Holocaust is a myth are crackpots who never would get elected to
office. That isn't the case in Iran. As far as the GDP goes, for that
matter, I'm sure Sri Lanka and Bangladesh rank up there as well. But
when it comes to money and boots on the ground, the US is always
there. Even for Iran when they go through a disaster.

The percentage of people in this country that do not believe the Holocaust
happened is about 35%. That means we are talking about 105 million people.
Iran has a population of 71 million and I wager most of them are not
deniers.

Thailand tsunami - US 15 million dollars in relief money. What was needed
was 2 billion dollars. Where did it come from? Not the US.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pretty irrelevant since no Holocaust denier would even be elected as a
dogcatcher in the US. Can't say the same about Iran, though. As for
US giving, see:
http://www.jewishresearch.org/PDFs/MegaGiving_05.pdf

I suppose that's a "hard-right site" as well. Yeah, right.

On Sep 19, 1:07 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 18, 9:07 pm, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:
Disculpa Senora trijcomm, pero did you really mime the following on
9/18/2007 9:59 PM???

On Sep 18, 5:19 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Do you know a anything about Iran? You probably think they are
Arabs too.
Public support for reform is strong -- see the previous president
who served two terms and was very popular, especially among the
women and youth. You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush clan.
Or you could read National Geographic's last article on the place.
There is a significant Islamic law faction, but it isn't so much
anti-West as anti-Israel and anti-America. Unfortunately they
got enough power to keep it -- they started keeping reformists
from running for office in 1994.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So you spout off all this misnnformation about Iran and then dare
declare,
Feel to point some out.

"Do you know anything about Iran?" Your statement about "see
the previous president" to prove your point is extremely weak, since
they went ahead and elected an anti-Jewish Hitler who wants to
destroy
Jews and is doing everything he can to get the job done. Oh, I'm
sure
public reform is strong -- up in the hills and mountains where they
run and hide so they can wear their hair the way they want to. Let's
be clear -- wearing hair in an "anti-Islamic manner" is far, far
from
"reform." We are talking institutionalized hate here that is bound
and
determined to manifest itself by the destruction of an entire state
and its supporters. Your arguments are Larouchian.
Just because some Iranians want to wipe out Israel has nothing
to do with my original assertion:

"Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey."

Btw, you don't sound any better than Iran's president.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are sadly, sadly mistaken. These people got what they want. You
don't seem to understand the culture of the Iranians.

Just out of curiosity, how many Iranians have you actually met or spoken
to? And please enlighten us - what exactly is this "culture of the
Iranians" that you refer to?

--
I'm so hip I have trouble seeing over my pelvis.
I'm so cool you can keep a side of meat in me for months.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

As a matter of fact, I have spoken to several who were fortunate
enough to get out of Dodge. As for the culture, I don't think the West
has any idea of how important religion is to the Muslim world because
the West sees it in a very, very minor role in their lives. Thing is,
religion is the biggest thing in the lives of Muslims such as the
Iranians. They may walk around with the haircuts, music and watch
movies, but they are bowing to Mecca five times a day. Until you can
grasp the importance of religion in the lives of Iran today and until
you can understand how it is THE overwhelming force in Iran, then you
have no idea of what you are talking about. The Iranians don't see
life as the West sees it. You just don't understand why the Iranians
go ballistic when somebody draws a caricature of Mohammad, or how they
stone people for committing adultery, or how they would kill any
Muslim who converts to Christianity. Until you understand that, you
are lost.

You know the bible calls for the death of people who eat shellfish, right.
It also calls for the death of a woman who prepares food during her period.
It allows you to sell you daughter and you can even sleep with her if your
wife won't put out. How about the part where working on a Sunday is a crime
punishable by death? How about a lot of things the Bible demands and nobody
does? You think you'd like living under Biblical "law?" Guess again.

Great porn in the Bible. Well I should say erotica. You know, the stuff
you've been told is a sin? Even between a married couple? I mean that
Solomon stuff - whew! I am getting the vapors just thinking about it.

Honey ??????????????? You awake?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmm ... weren't you the one who asked me to research what the Koran
said about the Jews? Now you are taking a completely different tact.
Fact is, like I said before, Iranian Muslims take their religion
seriously. Connect the dots.

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 19, 12:50 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 19, 12:24 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message

...

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy"
wrote:
"T" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is
the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the
Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never
think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is
changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under
him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their
president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and
hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before
WWII.
Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He only
exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government.
The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular.
Bear
in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have
had
a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They
don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we
installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change that
tune
in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot
even
be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all
Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no ethnic
or
religious
strife to divide them.
Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian.
According
to
the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%

OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?

Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian,
Jewish,
Christian, and Baha'i) 2%

I'd say with 51 guaranteed in the bag and the other 49% being filled
from
the Shia majority alone (Persians not withstanding), that my money is
on
extreme national unity in a time of crisis. They may not all be
Persians,
they may not all be Shia, but I think they see themselves as all
Iranians.
From what I know, they seem to get along pretty well considering the
part of
the world they are in.

In short, they'd be a very hard force to deal with and certainly one
impossible to contain seeing as how we can't even secure a 2 mile
road
in
Baghdad.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Seeing that the US has contained something like 15 of the 18 provinces
in Iraq, I beg to differ. And there are some parts of the US where
authorities can't secure a two-mile road. So what's your point?

Where'd you get that number from? The latest count is that the only
secure
areas are in the Kurdish north, where the Kurds are taking care of
themselves. The rest is completely out of control.

Did you know what happened top Petraeus's office in Anbar when he was
away
delivering his speech? It was blown to smithereens.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Frank Pallone, congressman from NJ, says 14 of 18. US Dept. of Defense
says 15. Take your pick. Now, I suppose you would argue that none of
them are secure because a shooting or robbery took place took place. I
guess that means the city of Las Vegas is not secured either.

OK, how about Petraeus's boss, Admiral Fallon. He says it's all BS. What
does he know?

Paul

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Sep 19, 1:07 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 18, 9:07 pm, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:
Disculpa Senora trijcomm, pero did you really mime the following on
9/18/2007 9:59 PM???

On Sep 18, 5:19 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the
Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never
think
about it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is
changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under
him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their
president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Do you know a anything about Iran? You probably think they are
Arabs too.
Public support for reform is strong -- see the previous
president
who served two terms and was very popular, especially among the
women and youth. You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush
clan.
Or you could read National Geographic's last article on the
place.
There is a significant Islamic law faction, but it isn't so much
anti-West as anti-Israel and anti-America. Unfortunately they
got enough power to keep it -- they started keeping reformists
from running for office in 1994.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So you spout off all this misnnformation about Iran and then dare
declare,
Feel to point some out.

"Do you know anything about Iran?" Your statement about "see
the previous president" to prove your point is extremely weak,
since
they went ahead and elected an anti-Jewish Hitler who wants to
destroy
Jews and is doing everything he can to get the job done. Oh, I'm
sure
public reform is strong -- up in the hills and mountains where
they
run and hide so they can wear their hair the way they want to.
Let's
be clear -- wearing hair in an "anti-Islamic manner" is far, far
from
"reform." We are talking institutionalized hate here that is
bound
and
determined to manifest itself by the destruction of an entire
state
and its supporters. Your arguments are Larouchian.
Just because some Iranians want to wipe out Israel has nothing
to do with my original assertion:

"Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey."

Btw, you don't sound any better than Iran's president.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are sadly, sadly mistaken. These people got what they want. You
don't seem to understand the culture of the Iranians.

Just out of curiosity, how many Iranians have you actually met or
spoken
to? And please enlighten us - what exactly is this "culture of the
Iranians" that you refer to?

--
I'm so hip I have trouble seeing over my pelvis.
I'm so cool you can keep a side of meat in me for months.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

As a matter of fact, I have spoken to several who were fortunate
enough to get out of Dodge. As for the culture, I don't think the West
has any idea of how important religion is to the Muslim world because
the West sees it in a very, very minor role in their lives. Thing is,
religion is the biggest thing in the lives of Muslims such as the
Iranians. They may walk around with the haircuts, music and watch
movies, but they are bowing to Mecca five times a day. Until you can
grasp the importance of religion in the lives of Iran today and until
you can understand how it is THE overwhelming force in Iran, then you
have no idea of what you are talking about. The Iranians don't see
life as the West sees it. You just don't understand why the Iranians
go ballistic when somebody draws a caricature of Mohammad, or how they
stone people for committing adultery, or how they would kill any
Muslim who converts to Christianity. Until you understand that, you
are lost.

You know the bible calls for the death of people who eat shellfish,
right.
It also calls for the death of a woman who prepares food during her
period.
It allows you to sell you daughter and you can even sleep with her if
your
wife won't put out. How about the part where working on a Sunday is a
crime
punishable by death? How about a lot of things the Bible demands and
nobody
does? You think you'd like living under Biblical "law?" Guess again.

Great porn in the Bible. Well I should say erotica. You know, the stuff
you've been told is a sin? Even between a married couple? I mean that
Solomon stuff - whew! I am getting the vapors just thinking about it.

Honey ??????????????? You awake?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmm ... weren't you the one who asked me to research what the Koran
said about the Jews? Now you are taking a completely different tact.
Fact is, like I said before, Iranian Muslims take their religion
seriously. Connect the dots.


Nope, completely the same. You have 2 standards. One for you, the rest for
Iran. You simply have no idea what you are saying. You act like you are
coming from a position of superiority but what you are proposing is nothing
less than genocide to support the belief that Jesus will not return until
Israel dominates the Middle East. At that point Armageddon will be waged
and Jesus will call the faithful home via the rapture. It is calld he "end
times" philosophy and it is hat you are discussing.

The funny thing is, you don't even know this is what you are saying. And I
don't mean funny as in ha ha.

Paul

T wrote:

You missed the point. Government funding of faith based initiatives is
wrong and should never have been allowed to happen.

I'll play: why is it wrong? Certainly not in the results, the costs, or
acceptance by those affected.

Given these criteria: cost, results, and approval, which works better: The
Salvation Army or FEMA?

In article , LongRodSilver
says...
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:23:19 -0000, rich hammett
wrote:

In rec.sport.football.college T sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
In article om,
says...
On Sep 18, 7:04 pm, T wrote:

We may have freedom of religion in the U.S. but it's the freedom FROM
religion that has me more concerned.

Yea. Them Lutherans always screamin' CONVERT OR DIE! while the
streets run red with blood.

You missed the point. Government funding of faith based initiatives is
wrong and should never have been allowed to happen.

Tom doesn't mind stealing your money to give to wealthy people
that go to church every week, it's poor people he doesn't want
to give your money to.

rich


Or drug dealing idiots that stand on the corner pushing **** to
kids.. while collecting from the gubmint..


Please cite a case where this is proven. In most cases the drug dealers
I've run across have been denied benefits and so deal to support
themselves.

Paul M. Cook wrote:


You can't seem to tell a Jew from a Zionist. I rather think you need
to work on some shortcomings in the knowledge area.

So you'd drop nukes on a country so people could wear their hair
freely? Is that the US's gift to the world? Did it ever occur to
you that the whole world has its own values ands that what is a value
in one place is seen as immoral someplace else? You'd have us
inflict our own lifestyle on the entire world, at the point of a gun
or threat of complete devastation?

Of course not. First, we don't have enough nukes. Secondly, the whole world
is not trying to kill us. For those who think our values are "immoral" and
are driven to impose THEIR values, well, that's what nukes are for.


Doesn't that sound a tad, oh I dunno - imperialistic?


Sure.

There was a time, not so very long ago, when with every tolling of the hour
by Big Ben, the British Ensign was being raised at dawn somewhere in the
world.

Today, with every tick of the atomic clock at the National Bureau of
Standards, Microsoft Windows is being booted on a computer somewhere (often
for the fourth time since dawn).

There's nothing wrong with imperialism - it's simply the survival of the
fittest. For those that think all cultures are equivalent, I have only one
word:

Dentistry.

In article x03Ii.2485$oc2.78@trnddc04,
says...

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 9:07 pm, Zaphod Beeblebrox
wrote:
Disculpa Senora trijcomm, pero did you really mime the following on
9/18/2007 9:59 PM???





On Sep 18, 5:19 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran
and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think
about it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before WWII.
Do you know a anything about Iran? You probably think they are
Arabs too.
Public support for reform is strong -- see the previous president
who served two terms and was very popular, especially among the
women and youth. You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush clan.
Or you could read National Geographic's last article on the place.
There is a significant Islamic law faction, but it isn't so much
anti-West as anti-Israel and anti-America. Unfortunately they
got enough power to keep it -- they started keeping reformists
from running for office in 1994.
--Tedward- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
So you spout off all this misnnformation about Iran and then dare
declare,
Feel to point some out.

"Do you know anything about Iran?" Your statement about "see
the previous president" to prove your point is extremely weak, since
they went ahead and elected an anti-Jewish Hitler who wants to
destroy
Jews and is doing everything he can to get the job done. Oh, I'm
sure
public reform is strong -- up in the hills and mountains where they
run and hide so they can wear their hair the way they want to. Let's
be clear -- wearing hair in an "anti-Islamic manner" is far, far
from
"reform." We are talking institutionalized hate here that is bound
and
determined to manifest itself by the destruction of an entire state
and its supporters. Your arguments are Larouchian.
Just because some Iranians want to wipe out Israel has nothing
to do with my original assertion:

"Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey."

Btw, you don't sound any better than Iran's president.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are sadly, sadly mistaken. These people got what they want. You
don't seem to understand the culture of the Iranians.

Just out of curiosity, how many Iranians have you actually met or spoken
to? And please enlighten us - what exactly is this "culture of the
Iranians" that you refer to?

--
I'm so hip I have trouble seeing over my pelvis.
I'm so cool you can keep a side of meat in me for months.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

As a matter of fact, I have spoken to several who were fortunate
enough to get out of Dodge. As for the culture, I don't think the West
has any idea of how important religion is to the Muslim world because
the West sees it in a very, very minor role in their lives. Thing is,
religion is the biggest thing in the lives of Muslims such as the
Iranians. They may walk around with the haircuts, music and watch
movies, but they are bowing to Mecca five times a day. Until you can
grasp the importance of religion in the lives of Iran today and until
you can understand how it is THE overwhelming force in Iran, then you
have no idea of what you are talking about. The Iranians don't see
life as the West sees it. You just don't understand why the Iranians
go ballistic when somebody draws a caricature of Mohammad, or how they
stone people for committing adultery, or how they would kill any
Muslim who converts to Christianity. Until you understand that, you
are lost.


You know the bible calls for the death of people who eat shellfish, right.
It also calls for the death of a woman who prepares food during her period.
It allows you to sell you daughter and you can even sleep with her if your
wife won't put out. How about the part where working on a Sunday is a crime
punishable by death? How about a lot of things the Bible demands and nobody
does? You think you'd like living under Biblical "law?" Guess again.

Great porn in the Bible. Well I should say erotica. You know, the stuff
you've been told is a sin? Even between a married couple? I mean that
Solomon stuff - whew! I am getting the vapors just thinking about it.

Honey ??????????????? You awake?

Paul




http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

And there's also:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

And best of all whack job religious bull****:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm

In article .com,
says...
On Sep 18, 6:04 pm, T wrote:
In article . com,
says...

On Sep 18, 3:05 pm, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote

You might as well claim America is a bible
thumping nation just because we elected Reagan and the Bush clan.

This is an unbelieveably simplistic and erroneous statement. You
should hang your head in shame that you compare a nation that has
freedom of religion to a rogue nation of goons that hate Jews -- and
has publicly stated so, by the way -- and has an institutionalized
system that has led to stonings of those who violate its tenets, not
to mention its attempt to destroy a nation that believes differently.

We may have freedom of religion in the U.S. but it's the freedom FROM
religion that has me more concerned.

There's a lot more freedom from religion being lived right now than
freedom of religion and that indeed has me concerned.



Why is that? Would you like to see your narrow religious views imposed
on everyone else?

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:6T5Ii.16190$mk2.1625@trnddc07...

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 19, 12:50 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 19, 12:24 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message

...

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Andrew Venor" wrote in message
...
Paul M. Cook wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Sep 18, 11:07 am, "Edward M. Kennedy"
wrote:
"T" wrote

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html
Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.
The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is
the
clerical
class.
Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the
Ayatollah's
trump
even him.
A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never
think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.
More to the point, the sentiment among the people is
changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country. So
we
could see change sooner than later.
Iranians hate the Shah but miss the lifestyle they had under
him.
The people want a situation more like Turkey.

--Tedward- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
And so they went out and elected who they did as their
president.
I
think your statements here are more wishful thinking and
hoping
than
anything else -- much like the German sympathizers before
WWII.
Their president is a powerless figurehead. That's it. He
only
exists
to
give the appearance of a parliamentary system of government.
The
council of
Mullahs controls the country. And they are very unpopular.
Bear
in
mind
the majority of the population was born after 1980. They have
had
a
taste
of Western life and they would like a whole lot more. They
don't
remember
life under the Shah, a bloody and ruthless dictator that we
installed,
so
they only see the happy side, if you will of the West.

Drop nukes on them, and all 71 million of them will change
that
tune
in
an
instant and you will see a backlash the likes of which cannot
even
be
imagined. One thing about Iran, they are all Persians and all
Shia
Muslims
(well those who are not Christians anyway). There is no
ethnic or
religious
strife to divide them.
Actually Iranian population is only about 1/2 Persian.
According
to
the
CIA's World Factbook the ethnic breakdown of Iran is as
follows.

Persian: 51%
Azeri 24%
Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%
Kurd 7%
Arab 3%
Lur 2%
Baloch 2%
Turkmen 2%
Other 1%

OK, good info. What is their religious breakdown?

Muslim 98% (Shi'a 89%, Sunni 9%), other (includes Zoroastrian,
Jewish,
Christian, and Baha'i) 2%

I'd say with 51 guaranteed in the bag and the other 49% being filled
from
the Shia majority alone (Persians not withstanding), that my money
is on
extreme national unity in a time of crisis. They may not all be
Persians,
they may not all be Shia, but I think they see themselves as all
Iranians.
From what I know, they seem to get along pretty well considering the
part of
the world they are in.

In short, they'd be a very hard force to deal with and certainly one
impossible to contain seeing as how we can't even secure a 2 mile
road
in
Baghdad.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Seeing that the US has contained something like 15 of the 18 provinces
in Iraq, I beg to differ. And there are some parts of the US where
authorities can't secure a two-mile road. So what's your point?

Where'd you get that number from? The latest count is that the only
secure
areas are in the Kurdish north, where the Kurds are taking care of
themselves. The rest is completely out of control.

Did you know what happened top Petraeus's office in Anbar when he was
away
delivering his speech? It was blown to smithereens.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Frank Pallone, congressman from NJ, says 14 of 18. US Dept. of Defense
says 15. Take your pick. Now, I suppose you would argue that none of
them are secure because a shooting or robbery took place took place. I
guess that means the city of Las Vegas is not secured either.

OK, how about Petraeus's boss, Admiral Fallon. He says it's all BS. What
does he know?

How to cash a Democrat paycheck?

LG
--
“We’re not always able to give them what they’re looking for, but in this
culture, as long as they see that you’re making a strong effort they feel
like they’re being taken care of.” - Capt. William Parker on the Iraqi
citizens

In article , LongRodSilver
says...
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:10:50 -0400, T
wrote:

In article om,
says...
On Sep 18, 7:04 pm, T wrote:

We may have freedom of religion in the U.S. but it's the freedom FROM
religion that has me more concerned.

Yea. Them Lutherans always screamin' CONVERT OR DIE! while the
streets run red with blood.

-Tom Enright



You missed the point. Government funding of faith based initiatives is
wrong and should never have been allowed to happen.



So the Government should never have rebuilt those black churches that
the ministers burnt down? They shouldn't be building places for
muslims to pray, and giving tax write offs to mosques either?


Why is it when someone complains about religion.. what they are
really referring to is CHRISTIANITY.. not islam, judaism,
buddhist..anything else???


Because by and large, it's Christians that try to tell me how I should
live my life. Why don't they just crawl back into the woodwork where
they belong.

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:gBTHi.2116$oc2.650@trnddc04...

"T" wrote in message
. ..
In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html


Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.




The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.

All rational assessments claim that Iran, if they wanted to, could not
produce a weapon for 5-10 years. And from what the sources who were right
on Iraq are saying, they do not want to and there is no evidence that they
are. What they are doing just happens to be legal as they are a signatory
to the UN Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty. A treaty which Israel and
India
are not signatories yet we give them nuclear technology and now even fuel.
There is every indication that a peaceful change of government could
occur.
Don't forget that on 9-11 millions of Iranians marched in the streets of
Tehran with signs saying "we are all Americans today." Great strides had
been taken by the moderate, pro-western, government they had at the time.
That was all thrown into the garbage with Bush's "axis of evil" speech.

Ahh, you're a nut. Got it...

LG
--
Freedom, by its nature, cannot be imposed -- it must be chosen. From Beirut
to Baghdad, people are making the choice for freedom. - George W. Bush

Paul M. Cook wrote:

Israel has an estimated 60 nuclear bombs each 10 times more powerful
than the Hiroshima bomb. Who is the nuclear threat? Who can
terrorize who? Do you think Iranians are suicidal? Do you think
they don't know all this? They do. If they launch one feeble
warhead, they will be literally annihilated and they are not stupid,
they know it.

Um, owning a nuclear device and being a nuclear threat are not equivalent.
France has more nuclear bombs than Israel and the UK has more than France.
Does quantity determine the terror factor? If so, we should be very afraid
of the Anglo-Franco connection. Conversely, North Korea and Iran have fewer
nuclear devices than Israel but virtually everyone considers these two
countries more problematic.


You've fallen for the rhetoric and the lies. Just like I am sure you
did with Iraq. Once again you are trusting the people that lied us
into the first mess and like deja vu all over again they are
repeating it almost verbatim. And it seems to be working if you are
typical.


I think you fail to see the big picture. We support Israel because we need
them to support us!

As we speak, Israel has about 13,000 "lifers" in the military plus about
100,000 conscripts doing their two-to-three year compulsory service.
Alltogether, about 120,000 soldiers in uniform.

That number can be increased to 650,000 troops deployed in combat on three
fronts in 72 hours, with the first quarter-million coming on line in ONE
day. Israel can field 18 divisions of infantry and armor. This is 50% bigger
than the authorized strength of all US ground combat forces (10 Army and 2
Marine divisions).

Israel can put into the air almost 700 strike aircraft. This is larger than
the United States Air Force. (If you add the US Navy, the US can launch more
planes than Israel.)

No, we want Israel on our side - for the obvious reasons.

In article 212Ii.2437$oc2.1995@trnddc04,
says...

"trijcomm" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

. ..





In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the Ayatollah's trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into Tehran and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never think about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is changing. The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the country. So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a life not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.


What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul




Technology, or more to the point, computer chips.

In article ,
says...
T wrote:

You missed the point. Government funding of faith based initiatives is
wrong and should never have been allowed to happen.

I'll play: why is it wrong? Certainly not in the results, the costs, or
acceptance by those affected.

Given these criteria: cost, results, and approval, which works better: The
Salvation Army or FEMA?




When both have been hijacked by idologues neither.

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:lT2Ii.2471$oc2.515@trnddc04...

"trijcomm" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 19, 12:28 am, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Sep 18, 11:59 pm, "Paul M. Cook"
wrote:
"trijcomm" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Sep 18, 3:28 pm, "Pete D" wrote:
"T" wrote in message

...

In article 46ef9364$0$32457$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
01.iinet.net.au, says...

"Jim34" wrote in message
groups.com...
http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html

Bout time the Iranian people spoke to the idiots in their
government
then.

The problem in Iran isn't so much the government as it is the
clerical
class.

Ahmadenijad has very little power in Iran, but the
Ayatollah's
trump
even him.

A while back there was a British journalist who went into
Tehran
and
it
was a bit disconcerting to me. It was one of those never
think
about
it
issues but it's a modern city.

More to the point, the sentiment among the people is
changing.
The
Ayatollah's don't hold much power over the youth in the
country.
So we
could see change sooner than later.

I guess Lebanon is similar in many ways, most people lead a
life
not
that
far removed from many in the "Western World" but sadly the
separation of
Church and State does not occur.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you interpret the "Western World" lifestyle as -- hou? Music?
Hairstyle? It doesn't matter how you wear your hair, what movies
you
watch or what kind of music you listen to when it comes to
institutionalized hate.

What else does the US give to the world other than pop culture,
entertainment, hair styles and fast food? What?

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So US = Western World? Well, one thing is for certain -- the US
certainly doesn't give the world Jewish hatred. As I recall, whenever
there is a huge catastrophe, the US is usually the first ones in to
offer whatever help the stricken nation will receive. And they poor
money into poor nations asking for nothing in return. The US is one
of
the most generous nations on earth and they get very little back in
the form of gratitude. But they still do it anyway. And if the US
stopped doing it, you'd be the first one screaming about it and
defending Jew haters. Yep, sounds sensible to me. Yeah, right.

OK, are you aware of how many people in this country think the
Holocaust
is
a myth? I'll give you a hint, it is more than the whole population of
Iran.

And as for generosity, nope. Looked at as a percentage of per capita
income, or ever GDP, the US is far down the list. Canada, France, GB,
Japan - all higher than the US.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What country are you talking about where they believe the Holocaust is
a myth? That means nothing since the Flat Earth Society is still
around. Big difference, though -- people in the US who believe the
Holocaust is a myth are crackpots who never would get elected to
office. That isn't the case in Iran. As far as the GDP goes, for that
matter, I'm sure Sri Lanka and Bangladesh rank up there as well. But
when it comes to money and boots on the ground, the US is always
there. Even for Iran when they go through a disaster.


The percentage of people in this country that do not believe the Holocaust
happened is about 35%. That means we are talking about 105 million
people.
Iran has a population of 71 million and I wager most of them are not
deniers.

Thailand tsunami - US 15 million dollars in relief money. What was needed
was 2 billion dollars. Where did it come from? Not the US.

Some sort of proof of these numbers you keep pulling out of your ass would
be just peachy.

LG
--
"The United States is like a giant boiler. When the fire is finally lighted
under it, there is no limit to the power it can generate." - Winston
Churchill

On 19-Sep-2007, "Paul M. Cook" wrote:

You know the bible calls for the death of people who eat shellfish, right.
It also calls for the death of a woman who prepares food during her
period.
It allows you to sell you daughter and you can even sleep with her if your
wife won't put out. How about the part where working on a Sunday is a
crime
punishable by death? How about a lot of things the Bible demands and
nobody
does? You think you'd like living under Biblical "law?" Guess again.

Basically, those who refer to the Christian reference manual are just on a
shopping spree like they were at WalMart. They just pick and choose what
they want.

"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:Cx0Ii.7345$A72.1397@trnddc08...

LongRodSilver wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:07:01 -0400, "Janet"
wrote:


"Paul M. Cook" wrote in message
news:UZTHi.2118$oc2.1417@trnddc04...

"Janet" wrote in message
...
Interesting photos, thanks.

Although I completely oppose the idea of attacking Iran--and opposed
the
invasion of Iraq--I find the choice of musical accompaniment rather
interesting, since the convert-to-Islam version of Cat Stevens came
out
in
public support of the fatwa calling for the murder of Salman Rushdie.
Not
the action of a peace activist, hmmm?


Rushdie is still alive and making public appearances. The Fatwa was a
symbolic gesture. If they were serious, he would not have lasted a
day.
Britain has a great many Muslims and I'm sure one would have gotten
the
job
done.

Paul

Rushdie lived in hiding for years, protected by the British government.

The fatwa was evil, and Cat Stevens showed just how vicious he was by
publicly supporting it.



But... islime is the religion of piece.. a piece of this country and
a piece of that country..

submit or die

Submit to the love of Christ or suffer the purification of the flames.

convert or die..

Convert to Christ and still die. Convert now before we kill you so that
you
can enter the kingdom of God. But we're still going to kill you
regardless.
That was once known as Christian compassion. Just as Montezuma.

So about as peaceful as Christianity, actually much more so when you
consider the millions of people and civilizations wiped out by the
Spaniards, the Inquisition (what a show) our own destruction of the native
populations to clear the land for the manifest destiny (aka God's will) of
Christian settlers and of course interfaith warfare just to name a couple.
Hardly a stellar record of peace and compassion. Ever see a protestant in
an Irish pub? No? There's a reason for that.

When you look at the scope of just the numbers, well Christianity has
been
far more reaching, far more destructive and far more dangerous to the
world.
An undeniable fact but one always forgotten by Christians.

The point, you inbred jackass, is that Christians have moved beyond that
and, much like you would apparently like to go back in time and annihilate
all Christians and probably Jesus himself, we would like to stop the
extemeists of our time. You can sit there ****ing and moaning about all the
bad things that have ever happened and feel your pathetic guilt about it, or
you can support those working to make things better today.

I choose the latter.

LG
--
The attacks were meant to bring us to our knees, and they did, but not in
the way the terrorists intended. Americans united in prayer, came to the aid
of neighbors in need, and resolved that our enemies would not have the last
word. - George W. Bush