ian field wrote:
"Ron Johnson" wrote in message
...
jakdedert wrote:
John E. wrote:
... and I never ever use rechargables in radio packs.
ROn(UK)
Why? [if you wouldn't mind a newbie question...]
See my multiple posts on the subject. For most presentation purposes,
the proven reliability of the good old alkaline--fresh out of the box--is
superior. One less thing to worry about in a complex and demanding
environment.

The cost of having a show 'go down' is much more than that of fresh
cells...especially if the cost is losing your job.

What he said. The risk just isn't worth it for the price of a few
batteries.
There`s also the factor that some low end radio mikes seem to object to
rechargable batteries (certainly nicads) It`s possibly the batteries
internal resistance changing as it discharges.
I`ve not really studied it, but when the rechargable discharges beyond a
certain point, the transmitters agc seems to get screwed up and unstable,
feedback is the result. Maybe someone with more technical understanding
can explain.

Ron(UK)

You don't need much technical understanding to know that NiCd & NiMh
batteries have a lower terminal voltage.


It`s not to do with the terminal voltage, it`s something to do with the
batteries internal resistance. Wireless packs are designed for
replacable batteries. The internal battery metering is calibrated for
Alkalines.

Remember the OP was talking 9v (PP3) batteries here, You're asking for
trouble using anything other than Procells or Energisers.

Ron

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:14:01 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

Then use the new type of NiMH, the pre-charged ones which don't lose
power sat on the shelf. Take them out the packet and they are as good as
alkalines. Only keep them for a fraction of their life if you want a
nice long charge, and put them in a trickle charger when not in use.


There are three problems with them. The first is that they are supplied
charged, but only about 80% charged.

I wasn't aware of that, although 80% sounds pretty good to me. You can always fill them before use (which is what we always used to do with the old type).

While they take longer to discharge
on their own, if they sit on the shelf for a year or so, they very well
may be flat.

The manufacturers claim they only lose 10% in a year.

The second is that they do not reach their full capacity when recharged
until they have been through 3 or 4 recharge cycles. I have found with
the ones I bought it took even longer, sometimes 10 cycles to get
any useful life out of them.

Odd, I've bought Eneloop and Hybrio and had nothing but perfection.

The third is that they have a higher internal resistance which limits their
output current. That is why the rechargeable alkelines that came out around
1995 never really took off. They were lower in capacity to the disposable
ones (about 80%) to allow room for expansion, and they did not put out
the current that nicads or regular alkelines did.

If you're using them in something that needs a high output current, I dread to think how much it's costing you in alkalines.

They also do not charge as fast. I charge mine in a 7 hour NiMH charger,
but have to do it twice. Using the little fixed rate charger that came
with a set, I have to charge then for at least 24 hours.

How long?!?!? I bought a Uniross FIFTEEN MINUTE charger. It charges them in 15 minutes *using a cooling fan) to 80%, then the final 20% in another 15 minutes.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

"Flashlights are tubular metal containers kept in a flight bag for the purpose of storing dead batteries."

DaveC wrote:

I want to keep some NiMH rechargeable 9v batteries in my tool bag (well, my
meter bag, actually). I am currently running a double loop of electrical tape
around the entire battery to insulate the terminals.

I'd like to use something more durable (one battery has had a terminal peek
through the tape) and was thinking about something like a battery terminal
connector but made of insulating material like nylon (probably of some
cheaper plastic).

Does such a thing exist? I did web searches, but maybe my terminology isn't
spot-on...

Ideas?

Thanks,

You mean something like this.

http://www.organize.com/storage-batt...FQhMGgodgG0uSw
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:56:44 -0000, jakdedert wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

snip

Then use the new type of NiMH, the pre-charged ones which don't lose power sat on the shelf. Take them out the packet and they are as good as alkalines. Only keep them for a fraction of their life if you want a nice long charge, and put them in a trickle charger when not in use.


In a word; no.

We don't have trickle chargers in the truck that takes them to the next
city; nor the time to monitor their health. A new Procell is a 'known'
resource. It always works, IME. It always lasts about the same amount
of time. When it's exhausted (actually long before) we discard it--or
switch it to less demanding tasks--and grab a new one (which will last
exactly as long as the last one did). I have a box of used ones right
across the room. Want some? They're great for kids toys, flashlights,
portable radios etc.

You're not listening. Use them yourself if you want to. I value my job
and my reputation much higher than the price of a new battery...or a
thousand of them.

What will you do when they stop making them?

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

I had amnesia once -- or twice.

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:13:13 -0000, Ron Johnson wrote:

ian field wrote:
"Ron Johnson" wrote in message
...
jakdedert wrote:
John E. wrote:
... and I never ever use rechargables in radio packs.
ROn(UK)
Why? [if you wouldn't mind a newbie question...]
See my multiple posts on the subject. For most presentation purposes,
the proven reliability of the good old alkaline--fresh out of the box--is
superior. One less thing to worry about in a complex and demanding
environment.

The cost of having a show 'go down' is much more than that of fresh
cells...especially if the cost is losing your job.

What he said. The risk just isn't worth it for the price of a few
batteries.
There`s also the factor that some low end radio mikes seem to object to
rechargable batteries (certainly nicads) It`s possibly the batteries
internal resistance changing as it discharges.
I`ve not really studied it, but when the rechargable discharges beyond a
certain point, the transmitters agc seems to get screwed up and unstable,
feedback is the result. Maybe someone with more technical understanding
can explain.

Ron(UK)

You don't need much technical understanding to know that NiCd & NiMh
batteries have a lower terminal voltage.


It`s not to do with the terminal voltage, it`s something to do with the
batteries internal resistance. Wireless packs are designed for
replacable batteries. The internal battery metering is calibrated for
Alkalines.

Remember the OP was talking 9v (PP3) batteries here, You're asking for
trouble using anything other than Procells or Energisers.

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

A beautiful young girl is about to undergo a minor operation.
She's laid on a trolley bed by a lady in a white dress and brought to the corridor.
Before they enter the room she leaves her behind the theatre door to go in and check whether everything is ready.
A young man wearing a white coat approaches, takes the sheet away and starts examining her naked body.
He walks away and talks to another man in a white coat.
The second man comes over and does the same examinations.
When a third man starts examining her body so closely, she grows impatient and says:
"All these examinations are fine and appreciated, but when are you going to start the operation?"
The man in the white coat shrugged his shoulders: "I have no idea. We're just painting the corridor."

On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 06:44:03 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

BobW wrote:
Do you have any info that indicates that they can't put out as much current
and/or have higher internal resistance (over time) compared with alkalines?

Sorry, I said two different things in the same paragraph and may have created
some confusion.

First the slow self-discharge rechargable batteries have a higher internal
resistance and lower output current than the "regular" ones of the same
chemistry.

Therefore "slow" NiMH batteries have a higher internal resistance, lower
output current and longer recharge times than regual NiMH batteries.

Then how come I charge them in 15 minutes in a Uniross rapid charger?

"Slow" alkeline batteries have a higher internal resistance, lower
output current and longer recharge times than regular alkeline batteries.

What are slow alkaline batteries? No alkalines self discharge, so why ake slow ones?

I mentioned the alkeline ones as their high internal resistance was a
deal killer for me. I could not use on HT's (handheld radios). They worked
fine with 1 watt output (low power), but on high power (3-4 watts), they
failed.

Going back to the NiMH batteries, I can't say how well they will hold up
over time. I only use them on MP3 players that take a single AAA battery.
So far it has not been good, the first batch to almost 10 cycles to
have any usefull capacity. It may also have been my fault, because I
charged them with the included charger which needed 24 hours or more
to charge them.

The second batch has been charged only with a higher current charger and
they seem fine.

I once got a large batch of dud NiMHs. They were non-slow Uniross batteries. They functioned normally for about 3 weeks with a few charges, then started self discharging so rapidly I couldn't leave them on a shelf for 2 days!

Note that the players are low current devices, they discharge at about a
rate of 100ma or less.



I have been using the Hybrio hybrid batteries in a Canon SX100IS digital
camera for about a year now and I haven't noticed anything problematic about
them. They last a LONG time without any special conditioning. I use a Maha
MH-C401FS charger (set to 'slow').

I've used alkalines in several different cameras and have had horrible
results with them.

All alkelines have a higher internal resistance, which is probably why you
have the problem with them. If you are a camera buff, that was one of the
two differences between the Canon T-90 and EOS-1. The T-90 used AA batteries,
the EOS used lithium. Canon was unable to get the current they needed for
all of the electronics in the camera from AA batteries.

There are Lithium AAs.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

When is it ok for a man to hug another man?
A. If he's your father and at least one of you has a fatal disease.
B. If you're performing the Heimlich maneuver.
C. If you're a professional baseball player and a teammate hits a home run to win the World Series, you may hug him provided that:
(1) He is legally within the base path
(2) Both of you are wearing sufficient protection, and
(3) You also pound him fraternally with your fist hard enough to cause fractures.

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


--
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If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!

ian field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!


I forgot: A frozen parrot on a stick doesn't count.


--
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aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

ian field wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Peter Hucker wrote:

Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.


Show us some of your designs, troll.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......

Ow - my sides hurt!


I forgot: A frozen parrot on a stick doesn't count.


PHucker couldn't even design that!

Peter Hucker wrote:
There are Lithium AAs.

There are 1.5 volt lithium batteries, such as AA's. They are rare, and
have extremely long shelf life, but I have never seen specs for
discharge rate, etc.

The only ones I have ever seen were packed with a fan powered gas mask,
but I think you can get them if you shop around.

Considering the shelf life of alkeline batteries sold here is less than
a year, even the "name brands". It's almost a moot point. We no longer
get any batteries from west of us, they all come from Korea, "China"
(inside the PRC), Singapore or Hong Kong.

Even the Japanese brands (Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba) are made in China,
and so are the famous US brands (EverReady, DuraCell). The only one missing
is Ray-O-Vac.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

"Ron(UK)" wrote in
:

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street shop
level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For decades dull
black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on them, regardless of how
tacky they are, never has an industry blown its trumpet so loudly.

Do they use alkalines in space? In oil drilling gear that has to go down deep
in the earth and stand vibrations? In pacemakers? In aircraft black boxes?
Ok, maybe they do, sometimes, but there are lot of battery technologies
reached for when mission critical reliability is needed, and I bet most
industries don't reach for alkalines. Oil wells reach for lithium thionyl
chloride, for example. If long life primaries with extreme reliability are
important to people who are so up themselves with their 'reputation' and
their expensive hours that are worth SO many batteries, why not buy those?

Instead of clinging to one aging method that is highly polluting, use some
imagination and explore what REAL professionals with mission critical
requirements are up to. Compared to those, the industry that makes such a
song and dance of putting microphones in front of delegates at conferences is
like the hairdressers and telephone sanitisers that Douglas Adams whimsically
crashlanded on some planet along with a captain with a penchant for bathtubs
and rubber ducks. While we need entertainment and communication to make
life worth living, people used to get by till very recently without having to
use so many mics to feel important or get themselves heard.

Get a grip. This thread has wound its way round this silly circle for too
long, and I should never have got into it myself, but I have, and this is my
parting shot. I'll read the flames if I have the patience, but I will try not
to get further involved.

I admit to using a few alkalines at times, but either where laziness is more
attractive than performance, or where nothing else fits yet. If I could
change all to Li-ion or lithium thionyl chloride types, I would.
Specifically, the only time I justify an alkaline is when I need a PP3 that
is ready to use, between long periods of disuse. For anything else, I find
another way.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.


I used to have a badly damaged wireless mic that caught fire while in
use. If it hadn't been in a thick leather case the user would have had
third degree burns where the ni-cads failed. He got some first & second
degree burns as it was. The inside of the leather case was soaked with
the contents of the vented cells, which would have caused more damage.
The brand & model information was burnt off, along with most of the
circuitry. The man using it reportedly grabbed it from his chest & threw
it across the room before it could do more damage. When they showed it
to me they didn't know who made it, and the dealer they bought it from
was out of business.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

On Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:19:02 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:
There are Lithium AAs.

There are 1.5 volt lithium batteries, such as AA's. They are rare, and
have extremely long shelf life, but I have never seen specs for
discharge rate, etc.

The only ones I have ever seen were packed with a fan powered gas mask,
but I think you can get them if you shop around.

http://www.farnell.co.uk

Search for lithium aa

There are loads of name brands.

Considering the shelf life of alkeline batteries sold here is less than
a year, even the "name brands". It's almost a moot point. We no longer
get any batteries from west of us, they all come from Korea, "China"
(inside the PRC), Singapore or Hong Kong.

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4 or 5 years in the future.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

In light of the Madrid bombing, France has raised its terror alert level from "run" to "hide."
The only two higher levels in France are "surrender" and "collaborate."

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:28:09 -0000, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:19:14 +0000, the renowned "Ron(UK)"
wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:


Designing anything for alkalines only in ths day and age is absurd.

In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use quality
replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


P.S. rechargeables have LESS internal resistance. Try shorting a rechargeable and see how hot it gets.

Try shorting a 9 volt Procell! stand well back tho...

Ron

John W. measured something like 90A from a shorted rechargeable (NiCd,
IIRC) 9V battery. Enough to cause a real explosion.

Duracell quote PP3 9v internal resistance as 1.7ohm, which makes the Short circuit current 5.29 Amps - not nearly as much as a NiCd!
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/new/MN1604_US_CT.pdf

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

(
))
(((
))))
(((((
/`-./\.-'\
\ / \ /
) (
\ /
%%%%%%
%%%%
%%%%
%%%%
%%%%
`--'

Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:09:02 -0000, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.

The only batteries I see leaking are Zinc Carbons, and Alkalines that were bought over 5 years ago. It seems strange you are getting such crap quality cells. I mostly get Duracell and some other lesser known brands.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

|
--====|====--
|
.-"""""-.
.'_________'.
/_/_|__|__|_\_\
;'-._ _.-';
,--------------------| `-. .-' |--------------------,
``""--..__ ___ ; ' ; ___ __..--""``
`"-// \\.._\ /_..// \\-"`
\\_// '._ _.' \\_//
`"` ``---`` `"`

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.


An awful lot of the 'Duracells' you'll find in discount places,
markets, etc. are chinese fakes. A genuine Procell PP3 has six
cylindrical cells which look like a small AAA cell. The ripoffs I`ve
seen have flat cells. You can barely tell the difference from external
appearances alone - the price should be your guide.

Ron(UK)

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:20:08 -0000, Ron(UK) wrote:

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.


An awful lot of the 'Duracells' you'll find in discount places,
markets, etc. are chinese fakes. A genuine Procell PP3 has six
cylindrical cells which look like a small AAA cell. The ripoffs I`ve
seen have flat cells. You can barely tell the difference from external
appearances alone - the price should be your guide.

I've never bought any at a market, as they are cheaper in bulk from places like Rapid Electronics.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Why do Italians hate Jehovah's Witnesses?
Italians hate ALL witnesses.

Peter Hucker wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:20:08 -0000, Ron(UK) wrote:

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.

So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.

An awful lot of the 'Duracells' you'll find in discount places,
markets, etc. are chinese fakes. A genuine Procell PP3 has six
cylindrical cells which look like a small AAA cell. The ripoffs I`ve
seen have flat cells. You can barely tell the difference from external
appearances alone - the price should be your guide.

I've never bought any at a market, as they are cheaper in bulk from places like Rapid Electronics.

CPC are pretty good, discounted AND two boxes for the price of one.

Ron

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:42:56 -0000, Ron(UK) wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 17:20:08 -0000, Ron(UK) wrote:

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.

So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.

An awful lot of the 'Duracells' you'll find in discount places,
markets, etc. are chinese fakes. A genuine Procell PP3 has six
cylindrical cells which look like a small AAA cell. The ripoffs I`ve
seen have flat cells. You can barely tell the difference from external
appearances alone - the price should be your guide.

I've never bought any at a market, as they are cheaper in bulk from places like Rapid Electronics.

CPC are pretty good, discounted AND two boxes for the price of one.

It may have been Farnell (same company as CPC) I got them from. I use both Farnell and Rapid, whichever is cheaper. Rapid are good for NiMH.

2 packs of 10? That sounds familiar actually.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

Does a pedometer detect child molesters?

There are 1.5 volt lithium batteries, such as AA's. They are rare,
and have extremely long shelf life, but I have never seen specs
for discharge rate, etc.

Eveready sells litium 1.5V AAs. They're most-commonly available in camera
stores. They have two or three times the capacity of your ordinary alkaline,
I believe, particularly in high-drain applications.

On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 18:20:41 -0000, William Sommerwerck wrote:

There are 1.5 volt lithium batteries, such as AA's. They are rare,
and have extremely long shelf life, but I have never seen specs
for discharge rate, etc.

Eveready sells litium 1.5V AAs. They're most-commonly available in camera
stores. They have two or three times the capacity of your ordinary alkaline,
I believe, particularly in high-drain applications.

I've heard SIX times.

--
http://www.petersparrots.com http://www.insanevideoclips.com http://www.petersphotos.com

,-.
/ ( °
* _.--'! '--._
,' ''.
° |! \
_.' O ___ ! \
(_.-^, __..-'' ''''--. )
/,' ° _.' /
° * .-'' |
(..--^. '
| /
'

Ron(UK) wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.


An awful lot of the 'Duracells' you'll find in discount places, markets,
etc. are chinese fakes. A genuine Procell PP3 has six cylindrical cells
which look like a small AAA cell. The ripoffs I`ve seen have flat cells.
You can barely tell the difference from external appearances alone - the
price should be your guide.

Ron(UK)

They are actually AAAA cells.....

jak

In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:
In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use
quality replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street
shop level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For
decades dull black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on
them, regardless of how tacky they are, never has an industry blown its
trumpet so loudly.

Err, we're talking radio mics here. And pro ones are in a different league
to the low end stuff. They have to be rugged - and possible to fix if
damaged.

Do they use alkalines in space?

That's a stupid comparison - you'd have to take all those needed with you.
Plus the fact that 'space' has easy and constant access to a source of
power - the sun. Unheard of in the UK. ;-)

In oil drilling gear that has to go down deep in the earth and stand
vibrations?

They use PP3s there? Or AAs? AAAs?

In pacemakers?

Cost almost certainly doesn't matter there.

In aircraft black boxes?

Any battery used in that will be a backup.

Ok, maybe they do, sometimes, but there are lot of battery technologies
reached for when mission critical reliability is needed, and I bet most
industries don't reach for alkalines.

Their requirements are likely different. With radio mics you need a
cost/performance/reliability compromise.

Oil wells reach for lithium thionyl chloride, for
example. If long life primaries with extreme reliability are important
to people who are so up themselves with their 'reputation' and their
expensive hours that are worth SO many batteries, why not buy those?

I can give a reason. Very high capacity (and cost) primary cells might be
ok where you can log the usage. Unfortunately in the film etc world this
isn't always possible - one person might be looking after dozens of the
things. So fitting brand new ones with a reasonable life is simply more
convenient - you change them all at natural break times. That might be
once a day - or twice. With some, three times. Most give a life of at
least 5 hours.

Instead of clinging to one aging method that is highly polluting, use
some imagination and explore what REAL professionals with mission
critical requirements are up to. Compared to those, the industry that
makes such a song and dance of putting microphones in front of
delegates at conferences is like the hairdressers and telephone
sanitisers that Douglas Adams whimsically crashlanded on some planet
along with a captain with a penchant for bathtubs and rubber ducks.
While we need entertainment and communication to make life worth
living, people used to get by till very recently without having to use
so many mics to feel important or get themselves heard.

Thanks for showing you don't have any understanding of this industry.

Think I met you once in the form of a large middle aged lady. I was
working on a live TV current affairs program. Went to clip a mic on her
and she said 'I don't need that, I have a perfectly good voice'

Get a grip. This thread has wound its way round this silly circle for
too long, and I should never have got into it myself, but I have, and
this is my parting shot. I'll read the flames if I have the patience,
but I will try not to get further involved.

It's as well to understand the problems in an individual industry before
trying to apply fixes from another. TV is full of kids just out of college
trying to do just that - and failing miserably. I've seen hundreds come
and go...

I admit to using a few alkalines at times, but either where laziness is
more attractive than performance, or where nothing else fits yet. If I
could change all to Li-ion or lithium thionyl chloride types, I would.
Specifically, the only time I justify an alkaline is when I need a PP3
that is ready to use, between long periods of disuse. For anything
else, I find another way.

One of the most important things with some RMs is size - if they have to
be concealed on the body. Better batteries allow smaller units. But good
RMs are extremely expensive and none will junk good ones just for this.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.


Are you storing them in an oven? I have used Alkaline cells that
were over six years old.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Think I met you once in the form of a large middle aged lady. I was
working on a live TV current affairs program. Went to clip a mic on her
and she said 'I don't need that, I have a perfectly good voice'


I would have told her that the audience was miles away, and her voice
wouldn't carry that far. Then I would hint that I would have the Cyron
operator put up a message that she had refused to use a microphone
because 'I don't need that, I have a perfectly good voice' and see how
fast she changed her mind.

I had one of the power supply boards in a RCA TK 46 studio camera
start to fail while on air. I was in the process of rebuilding every
board of that type and had just finished one so I slipped into the rear
door of the studio & got that camera operator's attention. He used his
intercom headset to inform the control room & director so I could repair
the camera between shots. I had just finished when the preacher on
camera called out to me to join him in singing some southern gospel, on
live TV. I politely refused, because my singing voice is registered as a
lethal weapon.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.


Are you storing them in an oven? I have used Alkaline cells that
were over six years old.

Are those times for cells that have been stored in unused condition,
or for cells that are in a device which is in occasional use?

I believe that the former (shelf life when fully charged) is often a
good deal better than the latter (lifetime once partially discharged).
I've read that even a modest partial discharge of an alkaline cell
starts an electrochemical reaction that can lead to corrosion of the
case after a year or so.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Are you storing them in an oven? I have used Alkaline cells that
were over six years old.

I think it has more to do with who makes the batteries and where
than how they are stored. We get lots of things from Hong Kong,
Singapore and mainland China.

If you think the people who put melanine in powdered milk, or used lead
paint on toys are the only ones who produce cheap junk and label it
has high priced well known brands, you are mistaken.

Here, were most UK and US brands are not officially sold, and grey market
goods are perfectly legal, you never know what you are buying, even if you
buy it in a well known store.

I expect that it's now the same way elsewhere, except that the name
brands usually are really what you think you are getting.

For example, last Christmas one of the major UK retailers sold a DVD player
for 10 quid. In the box was a remote and I assume batteries. How much did
those batteries cost, and how many of them surfaced with "brand names" on
them?

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM

In article ,
Dave Platt wrote:
Are you storing them in an oven? I have used Alkaline cells that
were over six years old.

Are those times for cells that have been stored in unused condition,
or for cells that are in a device which is in occasional use?

I believe that the former (shelf life when fully charged) is often a
good deal better than the latter (lifetime once partially discharged).
I've read that even a modest partial discharge of an alkaline cell
starts an electrochemical reaction that can lead to corrosion of the
case after a year or so.

I'd say you need to change your brand.

--
*Two many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Are you storing them in an oven? I have used Alkaline cells that
were over six years old.

I think it has more to do with who makes the batteries and where
than how they are stored. We get lots of things from Hong Kong,
Singapore and mainland China.

If you think the people who put melanine in powdered milk, or used lead
paint on toys are the only ones who produce cheap junk and label it
has high priced well known brands, you are mistaken.

Here, were most UK and US brands are not officially sold, and grey market
goods are perfectly legal, you never know what you are buying, even if you
buy it in a well known store.

I expect that it's now the same way elsewhere, except that the name
brands usually are really what you think you are getting.

For example, last Christmas one of the major UK retailers sold a DVD player
for 10 quid. In the box was a remote and I assume batteries. How much did
those batteries cost, and how many of them surfaced with "brand names" on
them?


I'm in the US, so quid is meaningless to me. Most remotes here seem
to be shipped with crappy carbon zinc, or no name alkaline cells. Some
are so bad they leak before the item is sold.

Right now you can buy a DVD player for US $14 after a $5 rebate. I
saw plenty of them in the 19 to 29 dollar range through the year.

I buy only name brand US made cells when I can. I keep a good
supply on hand for power outages, flashlights & hurricane season. I use
my oldest stock between seasons, and some got quite old. They were well
past the use by dates, but all were still good.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I'm in the US, so quid is meaningless to me.

Bit like 'buck', then, to the rest of the world. ;-)

Quid is slang for 1 gbp.

The way things are going 1 gbp = 1$ = 1 Euro. At least it will make
foreign holiday calculations easy. Except no one can afford them.

--
*All generalizations are false.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I'm in the US, so quid is meaningless to me.

Bit like 'buck', then, to the rest of the world. ;-)


A young buck or an old buck?


Quid is slang for 1 gbp.

The way things are going 1 gbp = 1$ = 1 Euro. At least it will make
foreign holiday calculations easy.


Thanks. It wasn't worth the time to look up the exchange rate over a
cheap commodity item.


Except no one can afford them.


I spent less than $50 on Christmas this year. Being disabled, I don't
put up a tree or lights since I have trouble with ladders.


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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in
:

I spent less than $50 on Christmas this year. Being disabled, I don't
put up a tree or lights since I have trouble with ladders.



Likewise, near enough (I haven't looked it up either). Not disabled, exactly,
but two broken bones from running and a subsequent fall haven't helped. But I
intend to get the best damn box of apples money can buy. That will improve my
mood.

jakdedert wrote:
Ron(UK) wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Peter Hucker wrote:

LESS THAN A YEAR?!?!?! I have Duracells with a use by date of about 4
or 5 years in the future.


So do I. They rarely last more than a year before they leak, and some
brands even less. Before they changed from some anonymous Chinese
manufacturer to GPT, the Office Depot brand sold here lasted 3-4 months.


An awful lot of the 'Duracells' you'll find in discount places,
markets, etc. are chinese fakes. A genuine Procell PP3 has six
cylindrical cells which look like a small AAA cell. The ripoffs I`ve
seen have flat cells. You can barely tell the difference from external
appearances alone - the price should be your guide.

Ron(UK)

They are actually AAAA cells.....

Same in an Energizer, the difference is that the cells in a Procell
are connected by spotwelded on flat metal strips
In an Energizer, pressure alone connects the cells to the top terminals
and bottom conductors. That might explain why they sometimes
inexplicably fail after a few minutes.

Ron(UK)

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I spent less than $50 on Christmas this year. Being disabled, I don't
put up a tree or lights since I have trouble with ladders.

I'm afraid we now use one of the fibre-optic "trees". It's around 18" tall
and sits on small table near the front window. A rotating filter above the
light in the base gives changing colours. We think it's quite attractive
and it's minimum fuss and effort.

We never had "real" trees anyway, my wife used to hate the job of
hoovering up the dropped needles every day.

--
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:

Ron wrote:
In your opinion maybe. Professionals in the sound industry use
quality replaceable batteries, they are reliable - reliability means
_everything_ when a show (or your job) is at stake.


Lame. I keep hearing this silly excuse. This is consumer high-street
shop level thinking. The whole audio industry is riddled with it. For
decades dull black boxes have been shifted with the letters PRO on
them, regardless of how tacky they are, never has an industry blown its
trumpet so loudly.

Err, we're talking radio mics here. And pro ones are in a different league
to the low end stuff. They have to be rugged - and possible to fix if
damaged.

In an industry where possibly 40 or 50, radio packs may be used nightly
on a single live show, do you really think they would use the more
expensive solution of using replacable batteries without good reason if
they could get away with using rechargables and saving money?
One microphone failure on a West End or Broadway show could cost a lot
of money and someone his or her job.

Ron(UK)

Are those times for cells that have been stored in unused condition,
or for cells that are in a device which is in occasional use?

Unused, of course. Using the cell, even "occasionally", drains it.


I believe that the former (shelf life when fully charged) is often a
good deal better than the latter (lifetime once partially discharged).
I've read that even a modest partial discharge of an alkaline cell
starts an electrochemical reaction that can lead to corrosion of the
case after a year or so.

I've never seen this. Sounds like another myth started by someone who
doesn't understand.

The electrochemical reactions in batteries continue at all time, whether
they are "new" or used.