On 15 Nov 2004 14:38:42 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
wrote:

What's the spin down time. If it isn't instant stop, a la Saw Stop, it seems
useless to me.

It's not about stopping it in an accident, it's about avoiding those
old heavyweight machines (chiefly bandsaws and spindle moulders with
iron heads) that carried on turning long after they'd been switched
off and gone quiet.

Here's a useful site:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm

and here's the relevant link
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis38.pdf

--
Smert' spamionam

Not to mention how much sawdust they raise, even at a distance, when they
wind up. Only thing that scares me worse is the molding cutter I once
owned.


"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Juergen Hannappel writes:

I'm not aware of any laws in the UK that restrict saw arbor length.
There's certainly no ban on the sale of dado saws. I wouldn't

AFAIK wobble dados are forbidden.

Well, hell, that even makes sense, but has zip to do with safety. They're
nasty
tools, hard to adjust, leaving a V shaped groove bottom, and they sound
awful.

Now, ask me how I feel about wobble dado sets.

Charlie Self
"If a politician found he had cannibals among his constituents, he would
promise them missionaries for dinner." H. L. Mencken

"Doug Brown" wrote in message
...
well I did a quick google search and all the "top handle chainsaws" I
found
seem to be one hand only - see
http://www.shindaiwa.com/products/chain_saws/ch357.html

That certainly appears to be a two handed saw to me. The black wrap around
handle on the left is where your left hand goes and the top red handle is
where your right hand goes. One, two.

and
http://www.asktooltalk.com/home/gene...g/solo/633.htm for
examples.

Same thing. In the few web sites I've seen since this discussion started,
I've not seen any mention of one handed operation.

Look at this link - there are two saws pictured. A top loader and a
standard configuration. Both have the same wrap around handle for the left
hand.
http://www.asktooltalk.com/cgi-local...olo/index.html

It would be ridiculously unsafte to operate a chain saw with one hand. I
can't imagine any manufacturer suggesting any such thing. One only has had
to operate a chainsaw one time to realize this.

--

-Mike-

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 03:16:58 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Are you quite sure about that Andy?

No, because there will always be some other design out there that I've
not seen. If there's room on the top of the case, then there could
well be space for another handle, or just more handroom in a longer
handle.

That would probably be even less safe - it encourages you to use it as
a two-handled saw, but really you're still only getting a single grip
on it. It's not the number of hands you're using, it's the distance
you can get between them.

--
Smert' spamionam

I looked at the other links that folks posted today and all of the saws I
saw (see saw....) were two handed models. I think you've mistaken the
design. The difference is that some have the handle for the right hand on
top instead of behind the saw. I can see the advantage of this design for
certain applications. For example, bucking up logs at waist height would be
easier with a top handle design than with a rear handle design. Both though
are two handed saws. Both will give plenty of stability and control. Seems
this one handed notion was founded on some mis-information.
--

-Mike-

"J" wrote in message
...
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 01:30:05 GMT, Lobby Dosser
wrote:

I see the top-handle as offering better control.

Then that's not a top-handle chainsaw.

All (?) chainsaws have a top handle. Most have a rear handle too. A
"top handle" saw _only_ has a top handle. You use it one-handed and
you don't have the rear handle to give you an extra couple to try and
control any kickback.


Here's where some confusion comes in. If you've never used a chainsaw, I
guess it's understandable. All chainsaws do not have a top handle.
Conventional design is for a rear handle and a left side handle. Your left
hand grabs the top of the handle, but it protrudes out of the left side and
gives control over the saw body. What they don't have is a top handle.

Top handle saws move the rear mounted right hand position up to the top
center of the saw - BUT, the left hand remains as in the case of the
conventional design. No chainsaw is designed to be used one handed.

Your right hand does not control kick back. Your left hand does. It's the
hand that exerts force downward. The right hand is not supposed to rock or
pivot against the tree dogs as a lot of people do. You certainly can do
that, but the saw is designed to cut straight down through a log. Pivoting
the saw is an indication of a dull chain or a novice user. Kick back occurs
one way and one way only. The very front of the bar has to come in contact
with something. The tip of it. Your left hand is what resists that
kickback should it occur. Pivoting the right hand can produce kickback if
the bar is burried in the tree, which is common with trees that are larger
in diameter than the saw bar. Pivot the bar past 90 degrees and you hit the
point where the tip of the bar is the contact point. Guaranteed kickback.
Not probably - guaranteed.


They're basically dangerous and uncontrollable.

This is patently untrue.

They're only
justifiable if you're working up a tree and need one hand for yourself
- more an arborist's tool than a lumberman's.

Equally untrue. That would be the worst time for an ill managed saw. But
then again, these are not a design that is inherantly ill managed.

If you get a kickback,
the saw _will_ jump up, because you simply can't control it in one
hand. Your only hope of vaguely safe working is to reliably always
know that when it jumps, you aren't where it's going to be heading.
This requires skill and practice.

This is pure bull. The saw is always going to kick back in a consistent
direction. Unless you're a contortionist and a very strong one at that,
you'll not be able to get the saw in a position so that kickback is not
going to bring that saw directly back to you. Skill and practice have
absolutely nothing to do with it. Nobody learns how to control kickback and
put it to some useful purpose. Kickback is something that is avoided at all
costs. The only safe way to use a chainsaw is such that you are always in
the direct path of kickback, so you make it a practice to avoid kickback.


My, that looks a bit dangerous. With the throttle at the point of balance
of
the saw the grip is really just a pivot point. Given the choice I think
I'd
rather be taking the limbs off by hand.


The right hand is always just a pivot in that you use it to keep the saw
level. The saw does not look to be any more dangerous than a conventional
design and in fact appears that it could be an advantageous design for some
applications.

--

-Mike-

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:48:48 -0000, "SB"
wrote:

My CDT (woodwork) teacher told the class that we couldn't use the bandsaw
because you had to be over 18 and have a licence.

Here's one education authority's policy document on workshop hazards.
http://www.kirklees-ednet.org.uk/sub...technology.doc

The relevant chunk is on page 16, here's some highlights:


In general, woodworking machinery presents a variety of safety hazards
to the user, including entanglement, trapping etc. However, if
precautions are taken and relevant standards and guidance are
followed risks can be reduced to an acceptable level.

[...]

The school should decide which machinery is suitable for use by each
group of students. The decision should be based on pupil maturity and
competence, the level of supervision, local authority and national
guidelines.

However, no child of statutory school age would be expected to have
sufficient maturity and competence to use high-risk woodworking
machinery.

A young person (those above the statutory school age but below 18) may
during training use the machines if adequately supervised. After
training, adequate supervision must still be provided if the young
person is not sufficiently mature.

[High risk woodworking machinery] Includes any hand-fed woodworking
machinery, any sawing machine fitted with a circular blade or saw band,
planing machines when used for surfacing, and vertical spindle moulding machines
(spindle moulders should not be used in schools).

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:17:26 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Top handle saws move the rear mounted right hand position up to the top
center of the saw - BUT, the left hand remains as in the case of the
conventional design. No chainsaw is designed to be used one handed.

http://www.stihl.co.uk/html/default_...tegory=product

Here's the type of saw I'm talking about. Ask Stihl where the brake
controls are. You can work out the rest of the terminology yourself.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:17:26 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Top handle saws move the rear mounted right hand position up to the top
center of the saw - BUT, the left hand remains as in the case of the
conventional design. No chainsaw is designed to be used one handed.

http://www.stihl.co.uk/html/default_...tegory=product

Here's the type of saw I'm talking about. Ask Stihl where the brake
controls are. You can work out the rest of the terminology yourself.

I don't understand Andy. From the picture (I looked at the MS200T) it
certainly looks like there is a left hand grip wrapping down the left side
of the saw. The chain brake - unless there's something new that is not even
mentioned in the product description is not operated by the operator of the
saw. It's an automatic function if the chain breaks and starts to fly back
toward the operator. Unless you know something that is not highlighted in
the product brief on the web site, there are no brake controls. Clue me in?

--

-Mike-

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:17:26 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Top handle saws move the rear mounted right hand position up to the top
center of the saw - BUT, the left hand remains as in the case of the
conventional design. No chainsaw is designed to be used one handed.

http://www.stihl.co.uk/html/default_...tegory=product

Here's the type of saw I'm talking about. Ask Stihl where the brake
controls are. You can work out the rest of the terminology yourself.

Sorry - forgot to include in my other response, I didn't see any mention at
all of one handed operation. I think you're misinformed as to the one
handed intent of these saws.
--

-Mike-

Cheers Andy,

So that basically means that maybe he can't let us use it @ skl but there's
no reason not to use it at home, right?

SB



"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:48:48 -0000, "SB"
wrote:

My CDT (woodwork) teacher told the class that we couldn't use the bandsaw
because you had to be over 18 and have a licence.

Here's one education authority's policy document on workshop hazards.

http://www.kirklees-ednet.org.uk/sub...gntechnology.d
oc

The relevant chunk is on page 16, here's some highlights:


In general, woodworking machinery presents a variety of safety hazards
to the user, including entanglement, trapping etc. However, if
precautions are taken and relevant standards and guidance are
followed risks can be reduced to an acceptable level.

[...]

The school should decide which machinery is suitable for use by each
group of students. The decision should be based on pupil maturity and
competence, the level of supervision, local authority and national
guidelines.

However, no child of statutory school age would be expected to have
sufficient maturity and competence to use high-risk woodworking
machinery.

A young person (those above the statutory school age but below 18) may
during training use the machines if adequately supervised. After
training, adequate supervision must still be provided if the young
person is not sufficiently mature.

[High risk woodworking machinery] Includes any hand-fed woodworking
machinery, any sawing machine fitted with a circular blade or saw band,
planing machines when used for surfacing, and vertical spindle moulding
machines
(spindle moulders should not be used in schools).

Andy Dingley wrote:

There is _no_ UK law against dado sets. There is a law (part of PUWER
98) that requires a rapid stop. As this is awkward to achieve with a
heavy dado set (you'd need to fit electric braking, which is
expensive), the cheapest fix for new retail machines is to shorten the
arbor.

Andy, I'm a bit confused by this comment. The Freud dado set sold by
Machine Mart (p. 296) specifically states "NOT to be used on any machine
with electric braking".

Bob Martin

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:09:08 -0000, "SB"
wrote:

So that basically means that maybe he can't let us use it @ skl but there's
no reason not to use it at home, right?

I think it means it's a per-person decision.

I let under 16s use my bandsaw while I'm watching, and I let a few who
are familiar with using it use it without me watching them. But I'm
in a workshop with maybe two or three people in it, not a busy class.
I'd be very reluctant to let anyone use it, in a school class
environment, but lunchtime "woodwork clubs" and the like would be a
different situation.

Your best way to get bandsaw access is to behave yourself and show
that you can be trusted with the tools you are allowed to use.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 07:42:44 GMT, Bob Martin
wrote:

Andy, I'm a bit confused by this comment. The Freud dado set sold by
Machine Mart (p. 296) specifically states "NOT to be used on any machine
with electric braking".

That's the problem. Most saws (all retail size ?) use a left-handed
nut to lock the blade onto the arbor. With a heavy dado set, rapid
braking may cause this to unscrew.

Laws require moderately rapid braking.

Some saws use simple electric braking to achieve this, which is very
quick indeed.

Rapid braking is definitely unsafe with simple LH nuts.

Therefore you can't use a dado set on a simply made saw consistent
with most of the saws complying with PUWER.

You could achieve this safely with an extra arbor lock. If you have a
3 phase saw with a VFD (variable frequency drive) it's possible to
brake more gently at a controlled rate, which would be safe with dado
heads, rather than simple injection braking. Either of these
mechanisms add cost though and I don't know of machines that do it.

UK practice for a large production shop would be to use a moulding
head on a moulder or planer, rather than a dado head in a table saw.
--
Smert' spamionam

Brake's the same place, though I also wonder what that extra red toggle up
forward might be. Since the chain brake is designed to bring the chain to a
halt in the event of a kickback, it's located perpendicular to the kickback
vector and in front of the leading part of the operator.

The thing's a close-quarter saw, not a one-hand saw. Imagine the attorney
fees if they were to call it such?


"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:17:26 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Top handle saws move the rear mounted right hand position up to the top
center of the saw - BUT, the left hand remains as in the case of the
conventional design. No chainsaw is designed to be used one handed.

http://www.stihl.co.uk/html/default_...tegory=product

Here's the type of saw I'm talking about. Ask Stihl where the brake
controls are. You can work out the rest of the terminology yourself.

You learned someplace else, I guess.

Rocking the saw, actually tilting the nose up or down alternately, is a
tactic to cope with large logs so that the chain speed can be kept at or
near full. By tilting, less wood is in contact, chips are more easily
ejected, and the whole operation's safer.

The reason the handle mounts around left is for felling.

You'd probably have a cow watching a good woodsman plunge a veneer log to
prevent heart pull.


"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
link.net...
Your right hand does not control kick back. Your left hand does. It's
the
hand that exerts force downward. The right hand is not supposed to rock
or
pivot against the tree dogs as a lot of people do. You certainly can do
that, but the saw is designed to cut straight down through a log.
Pivoting
the saw is an indication of a dull chain or a novice user. Kick back
occurs
one way and one way only. The very front of the bar has to come in
contact
with something. The tip of it. Your left hand is what resists that
kickback should it occur. Pivoting the right hand can produce kickback if
the bar is burried in the tree, which is common with trees that are larger
in diameter than the saw bar. Pivot the bar past 90 degrees and you hit
the
point where the tip of the bar is the contact point. Guaranteed kickback.
Not probably - guaranteed.


They're basically dangerous and uncontrollable.

This is patently untrue.

They're only
justifiable if you're working up a tree and need one hand for yourself
- more an arborist's tool than a lumberman's.

Equally untrue. That would be the worst time for an ill managed saw. But
then again, these are not a design that is inherantly ill managed.

If you get a kickback,
the saw _will_ jump up, because you simply can't control it in one
hand. Your only hope of vaguely safe working is to reliably always
know that when it jumps, you aren't where it's going to be heading.
This requires skill and practice.

This is pure bull. The saw is always going to kick back in a consistent
direction. Unless you're a contortionist and a very strong one at that,
you'll not be able to get the saw in a position so that kickback is not
going to bring that saw directly back to you. Skill and practice have
absolutely nothing to do with it. Nobody learns how to control kickback
and
put it to some useful purpose. Kickback is something that is avoided at
all
costs. The only safe way to use a chainsaw is such that you are always in
the direct path of kickback, so you make it a practice to avoid kickback.


My, that looks a bit dangerous. With the throttle at the point of
balance
of
the saw the grip is really just a pivot point. Given the choice I think
I'd
rather be taking the limbs off by hand.


The right hand is always just a pivot in that you use it to keep the saw
level. The saw does not look to be any more dangerous than a conventional
design and in fact appears that it could be an advantageous design for
some
applications.

--

-Mike-

Andy Dingley wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 07:48:48 -0000, "SB"
wrote:

My CDT (woodwork) teacher told the class that we couldn't use the bandsaw
because you had to be over 18 and have a licence.

Here's one education authority's policy document on workshop hazards.
http://www.kirklees-ednet.org.uk/sub...technology.doc

The relevant chunk is on page 16, here's some highlights:


In general, woodworking machinery presents a variety of safety hazards
to the user, including entanglement, trapping etc. However, if
precautions are taken and relevant standards and guidance are
followed risks can be reduced to an acceptable level.

[...]

The school should decide which machinery is suitable for use by each
group of students. The decision should be based on pupil maturity and
competence, the level of supervision, local authority and national
guidelines.

However, no child of statutory school age would be expected to have
sufficient maturity and competence to use high-risk woodworking
machinery.

A young person (those above the statutory school age but below 18) may
during training use the machines if adequately supervised. After
training, adequate supervision must still be provided if the young
person is not sufficiently mature.

[High risk woodworking machinery] Includes any hand-fed woodworking
machinery, any sawing machine fitted with a circular blade or saw band,
planing machines when used for surfacing, and vertical spindle moulding machines
(spindle moulders should not be used in schools).

So, basically if you are 16 or younger you are allowed to use a
sander? Maybe a drill?

On 16 Nov 2004 06:45:24 -0800, (David Hall)
wrote:

So, basically if you are 16 or younger you are allowed to use a
sander? Maybe a drill?

I'm not familiar with CDT these days. But there was a time in the
early '80s when _everything_ was acrylic sheet, scrollsawn, drilled,
heated and bent over a hot-wire line bender, then shaped on big disk
sanders with quadrant guards. "Woodworking" as we think of it
hereabouts to generally involve a lot of solid timber just wasn't part
of it.

I was at school through the '70s. I did a year of woodwork and learned
nothing. We didn't touch any machines. I did a full course of
metalwork (O level) and learned a reasonable bit, mainly turning. I
did far more of either at home, although not much wodworking.

I also heard one of the wisest comments from a teacher I've yet heard.
The metalwork teacher pointed out that almost none of us would end up
in hands-on engineering. Of those few that did, we'd be working 40
hour weeks as apprentices, doing nothing other than engineering.
Compared to an hour or two a week and this "O level" we'd acquired,
we'd do more in a few weeks apprenticeship than we'd done in our whole
school career. I was never an apprentice, but I did spend a few weeks
on a basic industry apprentice's metalworking course (so as to qualify
as a chartered engineer, although I was mainly a physicist). My
teacher was right.

--
Smert' spamionam

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
You learned someplace else, I guess.

From loggers.


Rocking the saw, actually tilting the nose up or down alternately, is a
tactic to cope with large logs so that the chain speed can be kept at or
near full. By tilting, less wood is in contact, chips are more easily
ejected, and the whole operation's safer.

Yes, like I said rocking is done by people, but with a well sharpened chain
there's no need to rock. Watch the real pro's (not a tree service)
sometime - they lay the saw on the log and let it do the cutting. When you
rock you tend to put more force on the saw - pushing it through the wood
instead of letting it cut through. You really need to look at your cuts if
you think that by rocking it you're putting less chain in contact with wood.
You are not. Anytime you force a tool the whole operation is not safer.
That is just a totally bad paragraph.


The reason the handle mounts around left is for felling.

That's the reason it wraps. It's primary reason is the grip that gives the
saw stability. There is no way you could stabilize the saw with just the
rear handle.


You'd probably have a cow watching a good woodsman plunge a veneer log to
prevent heart pull.

No, but he knows what chances he's taking. Go ask that "good woodsman" if
that is or is not the absolute best way to generate a kickback. Generally
when they plunge, they come in at the tip of the bar, but either just over
or just under the bar so that they are not plunging in with the tip.



"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
link.net...
Your right hand does not control kick back. Your left hand does. It's
the
hand that exerts force downward. The right hand is not supposed to rock
or
pivot against the tree dogs as a lot of people do. You certainly can do
that, but the saw is designed to cut straight down through a log.
Pivoting
the saw is an indication of a dull chain or a novice user. Kick back
occurs
one way and one way only. The very front of the bar has to come in
contact
with something. The tip of it. Your left hand is what resists that
kickback should it occur. Pivoting the right hand can produce kickback
if
the bar is burried in the tree, which is common with trees that are
larger
in diameter than the saw bar. Pivot the bar past 90 degrees and you hit
the
point where the tip of the bar is the contact point. Guaranteed
kickback.
Not probably - guaranteed.


They're basically dangerous and uncontrollable.

This is patently untrue.

They're only
justifiable if you're working up a tree and need one hand for
yourself
- more an arborist's tool than a lumberman's.

Equally untrue. That would be the worst time for an ill managed saw.
But
then again, these are not a design that is inherantly ill managed.

If you get a kickback,
the saw _will_ jump up, because you simply can't control it in one
hand. Your only hope of vaguely safe working is to reliably always
know that when it jumps, you aren't where it's going to be heading.
This requires skill and practice.

This is pure bull. The saw is always going to kick back in a consistent
direction. Unless you're a contortionist and a very strong one at that,
you'll not be able to get the saw in a position so that kickback is not
going to bring that saw directly back to you. Skill and practice have
absolutely nothing to do with it. Nobody learns how to control kickback
and
put it to some useful purpose. Kickback is something that is avoided at
all
costs. The only safe way to use a chainsaw is such that you are always
in
the direct path of kickback, so you make it a practice to avoid
kickback.


My, that looks a bit dangerous. With the throttle at the point of
balance
of
the saw the grip is really just a pivot point. Given the choice I
think
I'd
rather be taking the limbs off by hand.


The right hand is always just a pivot in that you use it to keep the saw
level. The saw does not look to be any more dangerous than a
conventional
design and in fact appears that it could be an advantageous design for
some
applications.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
k.net...

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
You learned someplace else, I guess.

From loggers.

I'll stack our UP cutters with the best. The guy who taught me to fell and
cut took a Maple and a polar with a pickup jammed between them down one
night without a twig falling on the two pinned occupants or we two medics.
Good friend in more ways than one! The vehicle moved more from the jaws
than the trees.



Rocking the saw, actually tilting the nose up or down alternately, is a
tactic to cope with large logs so that the chain speed can be kept at or
near full. By tilting, less wood is in contact, chips are more easily
ejected, and the whole operation's safer.

Yes, like I said rocking is done by people, but with a well sharpened
chain
there's no need to rock. Watch the real pro's (not a tree service)
sometime - they lay the saw on the log and let it do the cutting. When
you
rock you tend to put more force on the saw - pushing it through the wood
instead of letting it cut through. You really need to look at your cuts
if
you think that by rocking it you're putting less chain in contact with
wood.
You are not. Anytime you force a tool the whole operation is not safer.
That is just a totally bad paragraph.


Sorry, go back to your geometry book. Any secant is shorter than the
diameter. And I said "tilt."
How do you force a saw without pushing? Aren't you presuming?


The reason the handle mounts around left is for felling.

That's the reason it wraps. It's primary reason is the grip that gives
the
saw stability. There is no way you could stabilize the saw with just the
rear handle.


You'd probably have a cow watching a good woodsman plunge a veneer log
to
prevent heart pull.

No, but he knows what chances he's taking. Go ask that "good woodsman" if
that is or is not the absolute best way to generate a kickback. Generally
when they plunge, they come in at the tip of the bar, but either just over
or just under the bar so that they are not plunging in with the tip.

He's making money. A heart pull is hundreds of bucks.

"George" george@least wrote in message
...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
k.net...

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
You learned someplace else, I guess.

From loggers.

I'll stack our UP cutters with the best. The guy who taught me to fell
and
cut took a Maple and a polar with a pickup jammed between them down one
night without a twig falling on the two pinned occupants or we two medics.
Good friend in more ways than one! The vehicle moved more from the jaws
than the trees.

I'm sure of that. We have some of the best in the Adirondacks also - well,
we used to. I don't doubt for a minute what you say about this fellow, but
I'd invite you to show him my comments and ask him if he takes exception
with them.




Rocking the saw, actually tilting the nose up or down alternately, is
a
tactic to cope with large logs so that the chain speed can be kept at
or
near full. By tilting, less wood is in contact, chips are more easily
ejected, and the whole operation's safer.

Yes, like I said rocking is done by people, but with a well sharpened
chain
there's no need to rock. Watch the real pro's (not a tree service)
sometime - they lay the saw on the log and let it do the cutting. When
you
rock you tend to put more force on the saw - pushing it through the wood
instead of letting it cut through. You really need to look at your cuts
if
you think that by rocking it you're putting less chain in contact with
wood.
You are not. Anytime you force a tool the whole operation is not safer.
That is just a totally bad paragraph.


Sorry, go back to your geometry book. Any secant is shorter than the
diameter. And I said "tilt."
How do you force a saw without pushing? Aren't you presuming?

Me - presume???? Banish the thought. 99% of the people who tilt a saw do
not lift either the front or the back while they tilt the saw in order to
lift part of the chain out of the wood. They rock the saw against the dogs
and pry the saw. That results in full chain contact all the time. If you
did lift, you're cutting less wood - takes more time to cut. Keep your
chain sharp and cut straight through and that's the fastest way as well as
the way that strains the saw the least. Neither one of us probably has the
luxurey of getting out and watching the loggers these days, but watch the
logger games on TV. When they cut the butts cuts for time, look at those
saws - straight down through and straight up through the wood. If your saw
needs lifting to keep the rpm's up it's underpowered, the chain is dull, or
you're horsing the saw way too much.


--

-Mike-

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:48:11 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

He's making money. A heart pull is hundreds of bucks.

He said, demonstrating his ignorance for the world to see, "Can anybody, in
simple terms, tell me what a 'heart pull' is????"


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

Under powered? THAT we can agree on. I'm using a Farm boss with a 20"
Oregon, and 20" of maple is more than I should be working. Makes nice
bowls, though. Especially if you tilt the saw when ripping for shaving
clearance.

I get to go to the woods with cruisers, piececutters, and even my former
ambulance partner's husband, who has a few million in automatic harvesting
equipment to play with.

Sometimes I get to go to the woods to pick up those idiots who file the
depth gages off their chains so they can cut faster.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
hlink.net...

I'm sure of that. We have some of the best in the Adirondacks also -
well,
we used to. I don't doubt for a minute what you say about this fellow,
but
I'd invite you to show him my comments and ask him if he takes exception
with them.

If you
did lift, you're cutting less wood - takes more time to cut. Keep your
chain sharp and cut straight through and that's the fastest way as well as
the way that strains the saw the least. Neither one of us probably has
the
luxurey of getting out and watching the loggers these days, but watch the
logger games on TV. When they cut the butts cuts for time, look at those
saws - straight down through and straight up through the wood. If your
saw
needs lifting to keep the rpm's up it's underpowered, the chain is dull,
or
you're horsing the saw way too much.

The heartwood of even an otherwise sound tree is sometimes weak. The feller
will plunge the saw into the center of the tree, sweeping the nose left and
right so that the stress of falling won't leave a couple feet of fractured
heartwood standing proud of the rest of the cut.

These folks call it stump pull.
http://web.cocc.edu/logging/szlinks/stump_pull.htm

"Tom Veatch" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:48:11 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

He's making money. A heart pull is hundreds of bucks.

He said, demonstrating his ignorance for the world to see, "Can anybody,
in
simple terms, tell me what a 'heart pull' is????"


Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 16:02:22 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

The heartwood of even an otherwise sound tree is sometimes weak. The feller
will plunge the saw into the center of the tree, sweeping the nose left and
right so that the stress of falling won't leave a couple feet of fractured
heartwood standing proud of the rest of the cut.

These folks call it stump pull.
http://web.cocc.edu/logging/szlinks/stump_pull.htm

Thank you, sir. A cogent, easily understood explanation. Aware of the
phenomenon, but not familiar with the term.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS USA

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
Under powered? THAT we can agree on. I'm using a Farm boss with a 20"
Oregon, and 20" of maple is more than I should be working. Makes nice
bowls, though. Especially if you tilt the saw when ripping for shaving
clearance.

034 here with an 18 inch bar. I had a an 040-something with a 22 inch bar
which was way overkill. Got rid of it and got the 034. When I was putting
up 22 cords of wood a year it was a great saw. Now I use it for smaller
work and I wish I had one of those 020-something saws. The amount of tree
that I get into these days that really requires an 034 just isn't that much.
But... it's been a good saw and I'll keep it forever, I'm sure.


I get to go to the woods with cruisers, piececutters, and even my former
ambulance partner's husband, who has a few million in automatic harvesting
equipment to play with.

Another point in common. I was a Cardiac/Trauma Medic for 12 years. Both
vol and paid.


Sometimes I get to go to the woods to pick up those idiots who file the
depth gages off their chains so they can cut faster.

Ummmmm.... errrrrrrr.... I have to admit I've done that before. Cutting
down the rakers makes for a very fast cut, but man oh man, hang on to that
saw. I actually did it because the chippers had been filed away enough that
the rakers were keeping them from cutting. Smart people go buy a new chain
at that point, but I just had to get all the mileage I could out of my
chain. Never really had a problem besides having to develop a much tighter
grip on the saw, but at some point I really did get smarter and started
buying new chains when they got to that point. You actually can file them
down a bit and not cause any problems, but it just isn't worth it. Chains
aren't that expensive.

--

-Mike-

George wrote:

Sometimes I get to go to the woods to pick up those idiots who file
the depth gages off their chains so they can cut faster.

I did that once, umm, summer of 1977. When the chain was sharp you could
bog down and kill the McC. when going through a pine log. Extremely fast
cutting.

What's the danger? The tip was free so there was never any kickback. I had
to hold the saw up somewhat or the engine would die. The volume of sawdust
around my right foot was incredible.

-- Mark

Limbers often have poor body position, and sometimes even forget their leg
is on the other side of the piece as they reach, and even brace themselves
against the cut. They lose a touch of footing, and the saw's through and
beyond.

As the practice here was to pay by the piece, there were a lot of shortcuts
taken.

Kickback is unaffected by filing, as far as I know. Saw doesn't kick when
it's cutting, just when it's not. Only accident more gruesome than a kick
was the result of drop starting with the throttle lock on. Like we all
haven't done it, right? Lose your grip on the rope and the bar rotates
downward around mid-tibia.

"Mark Jerde" wrote in message
news:vgxmd.5509$h15.5202@trnddc07...
George wrote:

Sometimes I get to go to the woods to pick up those idiots who file
the depth gages off their chains so they can cut faster.

I did that once, umm, summer of 1977. When the chain was sharp you could
bog down and kill the McC. when going through a pine log. Extremely fast
cutting.

What's the danger? The tip was free so there was never any kickback. I
had
to hold the saw up somewhat or the engine would die. The volume of
sawdust
around my right foot was incredible.

-- Mark

I miss my 032, but when his magneto went out, I was able to swap him and
$150 for the farm boss. I don't cut in the woods now, so the "homeowner"
grade doesn't bother me. My wood arrives every year by truck. Ten full
cords, and cash only keeps the price down, and the driver makes sure he's
got enough outsize and oddballs to keep me in turnings.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
k.net...

034 here with an 18 inch bar. I had a an 040-something with a 22 inch bar
which was way overkill. Got rid of it and got the 034. When I was
putting
up 22 cords of wood a year it was a great saw. Now I use it for smaller
work and I wish I had one of those 020-something saws. The amount of tree
that I get into these days that really requires an 034 just isn't that
much.
But... it's been a good saw and I'll keep it forever, I'm sure.

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:30:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Sometimes I get to go to the woods to pick up those idiots who file the
depth gages off their chains so they can cut faster.

Ummmmm.... errrrrrrr.... I have to admit I've done that before. Cutting
down the rakers makes for a very fast cut, but man oh man, hang on to that
saw. I actually did it because the chippers had been filed away enough that
the rakers were keeping them from cutting. Smart people go buy a new chain
at that point, but I just had to get all the mileage I could out of my
chain. Never really had a problem besides having to develop a much tighter
grip on the saw, but at some point I really did get smarter and started
buying new chains when they got to that point. You actually can file them
down a bit and not cause any problems, but it just isn't worth it. Chains
aren't that expensive.


you can do it right and take off the same amount as you take from the
tooth, but to be really consistent about it you'll need a machine...

George wrote:

Only accident more gruesome
than a kick was the result of drop starting with the throttle lock
on. Like we all haven't done it, right? Lose your grip on the rope
and the bar rotates downward around mid-tibia.

BT, DT, got blood on the tee shirt... I learned to ONLY start the saw on
the ground!

-- Mark

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 00:30:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

Sometimes I get to go to the woods to pick up those idiots who file the
depth gages off their chains so they can cut faster.

Ummmmm.... errrrrrrr.... I have to admit I've done that before. Cutting
down the rakers makes for a very fast cut, but man oh man, hang on to
that
saw. I actually did it because the chippers had been filed away enough
that
the rakers were keeping them from cutting. Smart people go buy a new
chain
at that point, but I just had to get all the mileage I could out of my
chain. Never really had a problem besides having to develop a much
tighter
grip on the saw, but at some point I really did get smarter and started
buying new chains when they got to that point. You actually can file
them
down a bit and not cause any problems, but it just isn't worth it.
Chains
aren't that expensive.


you can do it right and take off the same amount as you take from the
tooth, but to be really consistent about it you'll need a machine...

Yup. I've got the file guide that rides on top of the cutter so that you
don't over file the raker, but I didn't have it back then and since then
I've just gone to replacing my chain when it gets down that far.

--

-Mike-

"George" george@least wrote in :

That Solo even _looks_ dangerous. Appears that these actually have
two hand-holds at right angles, however. I'm sure most people use
both simultaneously. Guy who sold me my first saw years ago used to
show the left hand - less index finger - and say "when you're holding
both handles, it can't happen."

Oh yes, never drop-start your chainsaw with the throttle lock engaged.

"Doug Brown" wrote in message
...
well I did a quick google search and all the "top handle chainsaws" I
found
seem to be one hand only - see
http://www.shindaiwa.com/products/chain_saws/ch357.html and
http://www.asktooltalk.com/home/gene...g/solo/633.htm
for examples.



Drop starting a chain saw makes about as much sense as quick drawing and
cocking a .45.
Hank