On 1/30/2014 7:01 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

For those of you not in snow country..
Some of you got dumped on..

It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
don't have it.

Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
you have a basement shop.

Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
of stuff.

Just an FYI..


I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.

Cut the amount of attic insulation to a minimum. The heat from the
house will melt the ice. No problem. There are some consequences of
going through an uninsulated winter, however.
mahalo,
jo4hn

On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment
in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up
enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it
rained here a couple of winters back and is currently collecting both
disability and unemployment.

Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I thought
that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.

As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These guys know
how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a professional skill on
their resumes.



The cant stand the heat, when it reaches 78F, and go back to where ever
they came from.

On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment
in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up
enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it
rained here a couple of winters back and is currently collecting both
disability and unemployment.

Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I thought
that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.

Hopefully not. You know what Ol' Mammy sez: mixing a dog turd in with
your ice cream doesn't make for a new and improved dog turd.

As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These guys know
how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a professional skill on
their resumes.

For a hangnail?!

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/30/2014 10:27 AM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/30/2014 11:25 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
woodchucker wrote:


Ok, you get to believe what you want.

I know that even a well insulated attic , well ventilated will still
damn.
The problem is the sun and air, it will melt the snow, and that will
refreeze at night if cold enough (usually is). Then the rethaw will
start the process over.... And that is where the problem occurs.

When my house was built, they did not have the glue down membranes in
use regularly. Now I believe they do. I am due for a new roof, but it
will likely be a second layer.. so not really ideal for a membrane.

Maybe, maybe not Jeff. You could strip back from the edge, down to the
deck. I would go at least twice what they recommend because I believe in
overkill. Went further on my own roof when I re-reoofed. But... lay
down
the membrane and shingle over it - even if you re-use the old shingles.
Then - proceed as if you were simply laying down a second layer over
the old
first layer. Though... I'm no believer in going over an existing
roof. I'm
kinda shocked that you are considering such a thing. Just does not seem
like the Jeff I see here. Oh hell - go for it - bring in a dumpster, pay
for the cheap labor and strip it right down to the deck like you
should. It
will look better and lay in better. You can do it Jeff...


Geez I'm speechless.

When I'm ready we'll see what the price difference is.
I like the metal roof look, would love to see how much that costs. But
when I had a house in VT I remember the rain, the sound was incredible,
but that was before they started insulating the roofs on the outside.


FWIW I had an Alcoa aluminum cedar shake metal roof installed on my
previous home. It was laid over the existing roof, but I suspect every
application and location may have different installation methods.
At the time, early 90's the aluminum roof was approximately 2.75 times
more expensive than composition.

Keep in mind also that insurance companies treat you differently with a
metal roof. Some will not insure you at all, some will charge more, and
if like mine I got a $200~300 discount for having a metal roof.

Our son bought that house in 2010 and the roof is holding up well to
this day. It came with a life time warranty and had I put up a
composition roof in the early 90's I would have had to of replaced it
already again.

Leon wrote:
On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

For those of you not in snow country..
Some of you got dumped on..

It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
southerners don't have it.

Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
if you have a basement shop.

Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
also rusted a lot of stuff.

Just an FYI..


I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.

They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have
to like that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow
sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.


That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not slide
off easily at all.

Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar shakes, or
anything else. I guess all things are relative but I thought that's what
everybody defined a metal roof to be.

--

-Mike-

On 1/30/2014 11:46 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand ice
and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect unemployment
in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work until it warms up
enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off the road when it
rained here a couple of winters back and is currently collecting both
disability and unemployment.

Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I thought
that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.

Hopefully not. You know what Ol' Mammy sez: mixing a dog turd in with
your ice cream doesn't make for a new and improved dog turd.

As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These guys
know
how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a professional
skill on
their resumes.

For a hangnail?!

You actually must be talking about the 24 year old cop who is collecting
disablity for life for a staple wound.

Ridiculous.

It does screw up the really hurt people. My BIL got hurt on the job, he
was a Capt. Fireman in Jersey City. The city denied benefits. They
parked a guy out at his house for about 8mos. They claimed he was faking.

The judge appointed a neutral doctor.. the doctor confirmed that many
vertabrae were damaged and many disks were compressed. JC still offered
him only 40% of the normal disablity benefits. Then they refused to pay.
He had 3 or 4 surgeries so far, and is on a morphine drip (perm
machine inserted into him).

Then you have some idiot who collects with a staple wound. He was on
the radio, and he was told to put in for it by people in the state.



--
Jeff

On 1/30/2014 12:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

For those of you not in snow country..
Some of you got dumped on..

It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
southerners don't have it.

Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
if you have a basement shop.

Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
also rusted a lot of stuff.

Just an FYI..


I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.

They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have
to like that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow
sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.


That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not slide
off easily at all.

Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar shakes, or
anything else. I guess all things are relative but I thought that's what
everybody defined a metal roof to be.

You're talking standing seam metal roof, or corrugated Mike?


--
Jeff

Swingman wrote:
On 1/30/2014 10:42 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


Yep, go figure. Since southerners obviously don't know understand
ice and snow, one of our 'winter Texans'/"snowbirds" from the NE was
tasked with that job. You know, one of those who collect
unemployment in NJ in the winter, while coming down here to work
until it warms up enough to go back. Unfortunately, he skidded off
the road when it rained here a couple of winters back and is
currently collecting both disability and unemployment.

Wait a minute - you guys don't really have snowbirds, do you? I
thought that everyone who migrated down to Texas simply stayed there.

Hopefully not. You know what Ol' Mammy sez: mixing a dog turd in with
your ice cream doesn't make for a new and improved dog turd.

As for the displaced NJ employee - well hell - of course! These
guys know how to work those systems. Disability is listed as a
professional skill on their resumes.

For a hangnail?!

Damned Texans. They just don't understand Persistent Hangnail Syndrome.
Quite an affliction. Second only to ADHD and OMIDFW Syndrome (Oh My- I
Don't Feel Well). Scoff if you will, but this critical syndrome will
adversely affect how well one can put their hands in their pockets and
remove them without disabling painful effects. Can affect on-the-job
performance (State Highway Workers), as well as the more emotional impact on
one's personal life (standing cool at the bar). Freakin' Rednecks - just
don't understand these things...

--

-Mike-

On 1/30/2014 11:52 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

For those of you not in snow country..
Some of you got dumped on..

It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
southerners don't have it.

Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop
if you have a basement shop.

Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
also rusted a lot of stuff.

Just an FYI..


I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.

They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but you have
to like that look. And... you have to think about all of that snow
sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all that stuff.


That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not slide
off easily at all.

Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar shakes, or
anything else. I guess all things are relative but I thought that's what
everybody defined a metal roof to be.



We have the standing seam roofs here too, cowboy house style roofs. ;~)

woodchucker wrote:
On 1/30/2014 12:52 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/30/2014 10:18 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 13:59:18 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

For those of you not in snow country..
Some of you got dumped on..

It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a
snow rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you
southerners don't have it.

Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your
roofs cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or
your shop if you have a basement shop.

Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the
house and it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and
also rusted a lot of stuff.

Just an FYI..


I would not think that a properly vented roof would ice dam.

They sure do. All of the practices of creating venting, minimizing
heat loss, etc. are valid, but they do not stop ice damns under the
right conditions. That's why we use water and ice barriers in the
north country. Mine extends probably 3 times higher up my roof than
even the most cautious recommendations, and across my valleys as
well. Metal roofs do go a lot further to combat this problem but
you have to like that look. And... you have to think about all of
that snow sliding off your roof - unintended consequences and all
that stuff.

That might all depend on the type metal roof that you have. My last
house had a metal, aluminum, cedar shake roof. So snow may not
slide off easily at all.

Metal roofs up here are defined as sheet metal roofs. No cedar
shakes, or anything else. I guess all things are relative but I
thought that's what everybody defined a metal roof to be.

You're talking standing seam metal roof, or corrugated Mike?

Around here now - mostly standing seam.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:


No Kidding Man! That's one of the bigger issues with metal. Those
cute little snow stops are about useless - ask anyone who has shared
your experience. Plus - if you do have to get up on that roof (say
to... oh,... maybe clean a chimney...), wel, you can imagine...

*snip*

I thought about putting a couple of them up over a Morton Building door.
Shut the door and whoosh! snow all over. I've been wondering if it'd be
worth the effort...

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 1/30/2014 4:39 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:


No Kidding Man! That's one of the bigger issues with metal. Those
cute little snow stops are about useless - ask anyone who has shared
your experience. Plus - if you do have to get up on that roof (say
to... oh,... maybe clean a chimney...), wel, you can imagine...

*snip*

I thought about putting a couple of them up over a Morton Building door.
Shut the door and whoosh! snow all over. I've been wondering if it'd be
worth the effort...

Puckdropper

I think the snow bars... where they are bars that go across might work
out better.

--
Jeff

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 23:38:57 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 14:51:27 -0500, FrozenNorth
Yep, I have never worried about it in Canada is the 17 years I have been
in this house, never a problem. Those in the deep south do not need to
worry, it will all be melted in a couple days anyway.

What kind of roof do you have that you don't have to worry about ice
dams?

Keep the roof at a constant temperature and you won't get ice dams.
The problem arises then ice melts in the center of the roof and
refreezes at the soffits, where it's cooler. The idea is to ventilate
the roof so that it stays the same temperature across the span, as
over the soffits.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 17:54:25 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 12:54:45 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 1/29/2014 12:52 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/29/2014 2:34 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
On 1/29/2014 11:59 AM, woodchucker wrote:
For those of you not in snow country..
Some of you got dumped on..

It pays to get the snow off the 1st 2 feet of the roof. I have a snow
rake and get about 4 feet off. But assuming most of you southerners
don't have it.

Take a broom and try to get the 2 feet at the bottom of your roofs
cleared. It may save you lots of money in rotted wood, or your shop if
you have a basement shop.

Years ago the ice damn caused a lot of water to run inside the house and
it travelled the joists and soaked a lot of wood and also rusted a lot
of stuff.

Your roof isn't constructed right. If it was, what you describe
wouldn't happen.

Really. Ice damning is a normal occurrence.

So what? If a roof is constructed properly, ice damming will not cause
water to do what you describe. There are millions of properly
constructed roofs to prove it.
Built for southern conditions, then hit with snow, could conseivably
cause ide dam problems. We build differently in snow zones.

A "properly constructed" roof in Atlanta or New Orleans would not be
built to handle snow and freeze-thaw cycles.

I see no difference in the (new home) roof construction here, compared
to the construction in Vermont. Roofs on newer homes tend to be
steeper, here, in fact. No idea why.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 16:32:46 -0600, basilisk
wrote:

On 01/29/2014 03:59 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:28:32 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 1/29/2014 2:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
...

I have never seen an ice dam form in AL. usually or snow events last for
10 hours or so and melt completely in a day or so.

If we have a mini ice age, I'll heed your warning.

What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
thousands. I don't understand it.

I don't claim any great driving skill but I managed to drive 150 plus
miles in the same mess without any problems. (in a two wheel drive pickup)

The primary problem is they simply won't slow down sufficiently enough
to even have a half-chance when they do lose it when either

a) somebody in front loses it,
b) they try to pass on icy lane and lose it,
c) they try to stop themselves

I found exactly the opposite, yesterday. People were so scared they
wouldn't move. They drove too *slow* (as in stopped) and the snow
under them turned to ice. There wasn't a chance to blow lanes clear
of pack the snow before it turned to ice. People stopped at the
bottom of hills. They're probably still there.

Yep, got behind one going so slow that there was no way they were going
to make it over the next hill, I found a nice place to pull over and
waited until they were out of the picture before going on.

Same thing happened tonight on the way home (two days after the snow).
Some moron got stuck on the same hill and cops had the road blocked
off. I had to drive ~10Mi around. There is still a lot of ice
around, where the sun couldn't get at it.

The other big problem is that there are no Winter tires here (myself
included) and many are running slicks.

I do have good mud/snow tires, it helps.

I don't. It's a new truck so has new tires but it does get a little
goosy going up slick hills. My wife has been stuck at home since
Monday and is about to go over the wall. I went into work at noon and
called back to tell her to forget it.

...

"basilisk" wrote in message
...


What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an inch
on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow over some
pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the tens of
thousands. I don't understand it.

Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad tracks
just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the car shortly
after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow truck was needed to
pull the car out of the front of the train and we had a 2 hour 20 minute
delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide
parking lots that went on for mile after mile! Glad we skirted most of the
problems... ran into some closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned
that they were blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

John Grossbohlin wrote:
"basilisk" wrote in message
...


What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an
inch on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow
over some pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the
tens of thousands. I don't understand it.

Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem to
be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.

--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message ...

John Grossbohlin wrote:

Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem
to be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.

From the Atlanta area news, as well as some "in the know" folks I was
visiting, they have equipment but don't know how to use it. I found it
rather funny that they weren't putting the sand/salt on the road "because
there were too many cars on the roads." They also didn't react soon enough.

More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock brakes,
stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks an
unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading to lost
skills...

On 2/5/2014 8:58 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock
brakes, stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks
an unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading
to lost skills...

Tailgating is something you used to rarely see on the roads around here,
now it's epidemic.

When schools used to actually teach it, driver's ed classes had a simple
formula for estimating a safe distance between you and the car in front
of you: one car length for every ten mph of speed on a dry road, add 1
or 1 for other road conditions.

My youngest daughter was instead taught the ‘Two Second Rule’ when she
took DE.

Problem is ‘The Two Second Rule’ requires more math skills to calculate
.... and schools no longer teach math skills.

The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you and
the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.

IOW, I'll go with the "stupider" theory...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 23:34:55 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

John Grossbohlin wrote:
"basilisk" wrote in message
...


What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an
inch on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow
over some pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the
tens of thousands. I don't understand it.

Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem to
be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.

+1

When I was in Detroit last month I saw exactly the same stupid
behavior that the Northerners are whining at the Southerners about.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 09:58:16 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message ...

John Grossbohlin wrote:

Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem
to be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.

From the Atlanta area news, as well as some "in the know" folks I was
visiting, they have equipment but don't know how to use it. I found it
rather funny that they weren't putting the sand/salt on the road "because
there were too many cars on the roads." They also didn't react soon enough.

They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.

More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock brakes,
stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks an
unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading to lost
skills...

Nonsense. People have lost all sorts of skills in all areas of life.
They're simply not being educated.

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 10:32:58 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/5/2014 8:58 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

More of an observation than a opinion: Four wheel drive, anti-lock
brakes, stability control, improvements in tires, etc. have given folks
an unwarranted sense of confidence. Another case of technology leading
to lost skills...

Tailgating is something you used to rarely see on the roads around here,
now it's epidemic.

Well, turn signals have gone the other way. Now you see THEM rarely.
When schools used to actually teach it, driver's ed classes had a simple
formula for estimating a safe distance between you and the car in front
of you: one car length for every ten mph of speed on a dry road, add 1
or 1 for other road conditions.

With the congestion, today, there aren't the roads to maintain that
distance. Sad, but a fact of life.

My youngest daughter was instead taught the ‘Two Second Rule’ when she
took DE.

Problem is ‘The Two Second Rule’ requires more math skills to calculate
... and schools no longer teach math skills.

The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you and
the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.

See above. ;-)

IOW, I'll go with the "stupider" theory...

Yep.

On 2/5/2014 11:59 AM, wrote:

With the congestion, today, there aren't the roads to maintain that
distance. Sad, but a fact of life.

Only at certain times of the day, and then mainly only in alternating
directions, is that true around here.

The rest of the time that, as an excuse for tailgating, doesn't hold water.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 4 Feb 2014 23:34:55 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

John Grossbohlin wrote:
"basilisk" wrote in message
...


What most southerners could really benefit from is rudimentary
driving lessons, for instance yesterday there was a little over an
inch on the roads, it's cold enough that it is a dry blowing snow
over some pack ice on the roads. People drove in the ditches by the
tens of thousands. I don't understand it.

Last Wednesday morning one of those drivers got stuck on the railroad
tracks just north of Gainesville... the AMTRAK train I was on hit the
car shortly after the driver abandoned it. Net result was a tow
truck was needed to pull the car out of the front of the train and we
had a 2 hour 20 minute delay... I saw thousands of abandoned and
trapped cars... 3-5 lane wide parking lots that went on for mile
after mile! Glad we skirted most of the problems... ran into some
closed roads though as so many cars were abandoned that they were
blocked to further traffic. Crazy!

I've seen similar types of congestion in the south where they just don't
have the equipment to deal with this kind of storm. To be honest, our
drivers up north are getting more and more stupid as the years go by. We
see way more foolish stuff that people up here should just simply be aware
of, but seemingly are not. I guess it just owes to the dumbing down of
people. We don't see the same kind of problems since we are in the snow
country and we at least do have the equipment to deal with it but we seem to
be growing a newer and newer crop of stupidity.
Well, I was supposed to go out to the airport for my weekly "hangar
lunch" at noon, but the white crap was coming down pretty good - and
it was that grainy crap - not nice soft flakes - which made the roads
slippery as goose ****. The pick-em-up has snows and posi - but trying
to get around the corner from Weber Street to Columbia in Waterloo
the truck wanted to go straight ahead whether I had the brakes or the
gas on, and regardless which way I had the wheels turned. The snow
bank stopped me. Then I had to stop again when there were about a
dozen vehicles trying to make it up the grade in 6 inches of snow - I
went all the way up the hill crosswise, and decided to just go home
(another 2 blocks on the level) instead of another 10 miles of country
hills and curves.

Sometimes it's all about knowing when to quit!!!

wrote in message ...


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.

There was an immediate and significant difference in the condition of the
roads when we crossed into Cobb County... they had been salted. Within the
city some main roads that had been salted. I've experienced sand, sand/salt
mix, salt, and brine applications over the years around here and there is a
difference... I'd find it very hard to believe that salt was not what they
spread... Some of the stores had applied a LOT of salt around their walks
and entries. The Perimeter and other major highways were not touched and
were parking lots...

The Monday Morning Quarterbacking in the press was amusing. I got to laugh
about the Atlanta storm and they got to laugh about NY politics. We all got
to laugh! ;~)

On Wed, 5 Feb 2014 14:23:20 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

wrote in message ...


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.

There was an immediate and significant difference in the condition of the
roads when we crossed into Cobb County... they had been salted. Within the
city some main roads that had been salted. I've experienced sand, sand/salt
mix, salt, and brine applications over the years around here and there is a
difference... I'd find it very hard to believe that salt was not what they
spread... Some of the stores had applied a LOT of salt around their walks
and entries. The Perimeter and other major highways were not touched and
were parking lots...

I live on the SW side, where the snow/ice was heavier. There was
never any attempt to salt or sand anything (except perhaps a sand
wich, somewhere).

The Perimeter is a parking lot every afternoon.

The Monday Morning Quarterbacking in the press was amusing. I got to laugh
about the Atlanta storm and they got to laugh about NY politics. We all got
to laugh! ;~)

I love ATL politics, too. Loons, all. I particularly loved it when
they tried blaming the local meteorologist.

Swingman wrote:


The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.


A particular **** me right off thing! The other thing that ****es me right
off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.

--

-Mike-

wrote:


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.


Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to about 20F
and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless they stockpile salt
mixtures, they're screwed.

--

-Mike-

On 02/05/2014 09:32 AM, Swingman wrote:

The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you and
the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.

This one in particular ****es me off, especially when towing my 5th
wheel and that ass-hat dives in and hits his brakes! It's a real
vocabulary expander...

--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On 2/6/2014 7:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.


A particular **** me right off thing! The other thing that ****es me right
off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.



Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
of you and immediately slows down.


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

Leon wrote:


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

Isn't that one just a jewel? You have to believe that you caught them
asleep at the wheel, and once they realized they were getting passed, they
react.

--

-Mike-

On 2/6/2014 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:


Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
of you and immediately slows down.


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

You are not the only one getting PO'd at that.

My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23
years. I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at
least twice a week.

One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him
wait until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by
me and 100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.

On 2/6/2014 10:15 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

Isn't that one just a jewel? You have to believe that you caught them
asleep at the wheel, and once they realized they were getting passed, they
react.



It all seems to work around the common denominator of not being behind
"ME". LOL

On 2/6/2014 11:03 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/6/2014 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:


Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
of you and immediately slows down.


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

You are not the only one getting PO'd at that.

My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23
years. I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at
least twice a week.

One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him
wait until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by
me and 100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.


Yeah!

No one is in a hurry to get out and pass in the left lane until you do
so, and then every one wants to get out there and GO FAST!

I'm with you, If I am doing at least the speed limit I'm not going to
speed up as long as I am passing slower traffic.

On 2/6/2014 8:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.


A particular **** me right off thing! The other thing that ****es me right
off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.


You must have a listening device listening to me as I curse those
*******s out.... Just took a trip up to drop some stuff off at my sons
apartment and hit that repeatedly.

--
Jeff

On 2/6/2014 12:03 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/6/2014 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:


Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
of you and immediately slows down.


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

You are not the only one getting PO'd at that.

My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23
years. I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at
least twice a week.

One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him
wait until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by
me and 100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.
That was you????
Get out of the left lane at 70.....!!!!!

Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle launcher.

On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of the
time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get the F
out of my way at 70

--
Jeff

On 2/6/2014 1:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:

That was you????
Get out of the left lane at 70.....!!!!!

Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle
launcher.

On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of the
time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get the F
out of my way at 70


I've driven thousands of miles in Jersey at speeds much higher than 70.
Going to work though, I see radar a couple of times a week in the 10
mile stretch to the state line. Once past the last trap spot, I
increase to 75 to the state line, then there is a valley with good
visibility and never a cop. Depending on traffic, I run 85 to 95 for
about a mile. According to my GPS, my top is 123. Then back to 75.

On 2/6/2014 2:47 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 2/6/2014 1:21 PM, woodchucker wrote:

That was you????
Get out of the left lane at 70.....!!!!!

Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle
launcher.

On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of the
time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get the F
out of my way at 70


I've driven thousands of miles in Jersey at speeds much higher than 70.
Going to work though, I see radar a couple of times a week in the 10
mile stretch to the state line. Once past the last trap spot, I
increase to 75 to the state line, then there is a valley with good
visibility and never a cop. Depending on traffic, I run 85 to 95 for
about a mile. According to my GPS, my top is 123. Then back to 75.
Ok, ok...
Glad to hear you are not a left lane dick.

--
Jeff

woodchucker wrote:


Seriously in NJ 70 in the left is slow. Normal left lane speed is 80.
When a guy sits in the left lane at 70, I just wish I had a missle
launcher.
On the back roads though, I pretty much travel like a farmer most of
the time... I slow down and smell the roses... but on the highway get
the F out of my way at 70

Preach it brother! Same thing in NY.

--

-Mike-

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...


My best story though is when I was in the left lane passing. I'm on the
same 10 mile stretch of highway I've been using to go to work for 23 years.
I set the cruise at 70 and just go, passing a radar trap at least twice a
week.

One day I'm in the left lane at 70 slowly passing a line of cars in the
right lane. A guy gets on my tail and is very impatient. I made him wait
until I passed the other cars, then moved to the right. He flew by me and
100 yards later was pulled over by the State Police with radar.

I refer to that as "bear hunting..." One day I got two! LOL

John