On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 09:20:13 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/6/2014 7:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.


A particular **** me right off thing! The other thing that ****es me right
off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.



Or your are going down the highway on cruise control and catch up with
the vehicle in the right lane, the same lane you are in. You pass him
and pull back over in front of him and a mile later he is back in front
of you and immediately slows down.


Or as you attempt to pass using cruise control, he speeds up.

That's the norm. There is a natural tendency to match the speed of
the cars around you. I often wonder if I'm the only one on the road
with cruise control.

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M. As
far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need for it
once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and keep the
equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.


Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to about 20F
and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless they stockpile salt
mixtures, they're screwed.

That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)

Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
keep the equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.


Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.

That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)

Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.

--

-Mike-

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
keep the equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.


Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.

That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)

Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.

Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
(doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
a bonus.

On 2/6/2014 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
keep the equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.


Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.

That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)

Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.

Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
(doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
a bonus.

Salt mixture is not sand and salt.
It's different types of salt.

Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.

--
Jeff

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 21:47:53 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 2/6/2014 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
keep the equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.


Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.

That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)

Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.

Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
(doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
a bonus.

Salt mixture is not sand and salt.
It's different types of salt.

They talked about using calcium but it's about 4x the cost. AFAIK,
never happened.

Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 21:47:53 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 2/6/2014 8:45 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 19:36:18 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014 08:37:52 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


They have thirty plows (or something like that) for a city of 4.5M.
As far as not knowing how to use it, well, if you only have a need
for it once every three to ten years, it's hard to remember (and
keep the equipment up).

The roads were ice, quite quickly. Salt would have fixed everything
but THERE IS NO SALT AND NOTHING TO SPREAD IT WITH.


Then there's also the point that salt is only effective down to
about 20F and is completely ineffective at 10F by itself. Unless
they stockpile salt mixtures, they're screwed.

That's rarely a problem in Atlanta. ;-)

Salt still provides traction, even at -10F. In Vermont, they'd use
straight salt all Winter. Sand turns to rock with any moisture and
needs to be picked up in the Spring. Salt doesn't.

Northeast regions usually use a salt mixture and not just salt.

Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
(doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
a bonus.

Salt mixture is not sand and salt.
It's different types of salt.

Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.
Been using beet juice and salt mix up here - with significant
improvement in cold weather melt. That's sugar beet.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:02:21 -0500, wrote:
Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.
I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

Can't say what type of salt they've been using, but here in Toronto
it's been as cold as -30°F lately and it does work as long as the snow
is not excessively deep.

wrote:


Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
(doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
a bonus.

Around here - in the rural areas, it's still mostly a mix of sand and salt
although I know they do use calcium chloride also, but I don't know how
much. On the interstates, they're using something else - it's green, but I
don't know what it is. You don't ever see a truck with pure salt in the box
anymore around here. Of course heated boxes go a long way to keeping things
from freezing up in the box. On the interstates - no sand in the mix, ,just
salt and whatever else. In the suburban areas - kind of the same. In the
rural areas - sand and salt and (probably) calcium chloride.

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 7 Feb 2014 07:59:49 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

wrote:


Usually but as you point out, salt doesn't work at low temperatures
(doesn't work at all a 0F). If there is any water in the sand the
salt will freeze solid in the salt sheds or on the trucks. Pure salt
is easier to use at these temperatures. No clean up in the Spring is
a bonus.

Around here - in the rural areas, it's still mostly a mix of sand and salt
although I know they do use calcium chloride also, but I don't know how
much. On the interstates, they're using something else - it's green, but I
don't know what it is. You don't ever see a truck with pure salt in the box
anymore around here. Of course heated boxes go a long way to keeping things
from freezing up in the box. On the interstates - no sand in the mix, ,just
salt and whatever else. In the suburban areas - kind of the same. In the
rural areas - sand and salt and (probably) calcium chloride.
Urea is also used quite a bit in some areas. However only Calcium
Chloride has a colder working range than NaCl - among the common
"salts"

Sodium Acetate is used on runways because it is non-corrosive and
works to zero F.. Sodium Formate is similar.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:02:21 -0500, wrote:

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

The brine is sprayed before it snows on the roads, leaving a coating
on the road.

Mark

wrote in message ...

Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

Around here they put brine on the roads well before it snows/sleets. The
brine dries and then when the moisture hits it liquefies again and keeps the
snow from sticking. Followed up with salt after there is some accumulation,
combined with traffic churning the slush and the ice doesn't have a chance
to form. The prophylactic application of salt brine seems to work really
well and saves money much like another type of prophylactic saves money on
child rearing... ;~)

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 03:38:44 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:02:21 -0500, wrote:
Lately they have been using Brine around the NY, NJ area.
I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

Can't say what type of salt they've been using, but here in Toronto
it's been as cold as -30°F lately and it does work as long as the snow
is not excessively deep.

Sodium salt will not lower the freezing point of water much below 0F
(the original set point for the Fahrenheit scale) and more is not
better. The eutectic point for Sodium brine is -6F and the curves
slope up quite fast on both sides. The eutectic point of Calcium
brine is -60F but the slope of its density to temperature curves are
even steeper. Add either too much salt (Sodium or Calcium) or too
little (or it melts ice) and the freezing temperature goes up quickly.

When I was in Vermont, I found the Calcium worked much better because,
unlike Sodium salt the pellets melted pits in the ice at just about
any temperature. The pits or holes were good traction, even if it
refroze. Calcium also doesn't track in the house and destroy cars.
It's *lot* more expensive, though.

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:42:51 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:02:21 -0500, wrote:

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

The brine is sprayed before it snows on the roads, leaving a coating
on the road.

If it's sodium salt brine, it will help "black ice" or in the first
hour or so of a snowstorm. At very low temperatures, it's not going
to do anything at all. Well, it will make the roads slick as snot as
it freezes into a nice uniform layer. ;-)

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 19:08:13 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:42:51 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:02:21 -0500, wrote:

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

The brine is sprayed before it snows on the roads, leaving a coating
on the road.

If it's sodium salt brine, it will help "black ice" or in the first
hour or so of a snowstorm. At very low temperatures, it's not going
to do anything at all. Well, it will make the roads slick as snot as
it freezes into a nice uniform layer. ;-)

Do not know what the mix is but it is not just sodium chloride. Your
in theory work is not need actually, as IDOT here seems to have done
the work and it works.

On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 07:20:04 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 19:08:13 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:42:51 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:02:21 -0500, wrote:

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

The brine is sprayed before it snows on the roads, leaving a coating
on the road.

If it's sodium salt brine, it will help "black ice" or in the first
hour or so of a snowstorm. At very low temperatures, it's not going
to do anything at all. Well, it will make the roads slick as snot as
it freezes into a nice uniform layer. ;-)

Do not know what the mix is but it is not just sodium chloride. Your
in theory work is not need actually, as IDOT here seems to have done
the work and it works.
Brining the road helps keep the snow/ice from sticking to the
pavement, making ploughing easier, and also helps prevent icing before
snow accumulates.

I watched a show on my Sat unit - the salt in the north is
different than in the south - different 'salt' not sodium-cloride
calcium..... They showed tall stacks of a brownish 'salt' (a large
family of chemicals) and stated they normally served the western states
as needed but now since the supplies were short in the East, they were
looking for rail cars to haul the salt to the East in the volume they need.

Learned there is a good ole bunch of chemical sets used.

Martin

On 2/8/2014 1:07 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 07:20:04 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 19:08:13 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:42:51 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 22:02:21 -0500, wrote:

I've heard that but brine is just water and salt. Not sure what the
advantage of that when it's too cold for salt to work at all.

The brine is sprayed before it snows on the roads, leaving a coating
on the road.

If it's sodium salt brine, it will help "black ice" or in the first
hour or so of a snowstorm. At very low temperatures, it's not going
to do anything at all. Well, it will make the roads slick as snot as
it freezes into a nice uniform layer. ;-)

Do not know what the mix is but it is not just sodium chloride. Your
in theory work is not need actually, as IDOT here seems to have done
the work and it works.
Brining the road helps keep the snow/ice from sticking to the
pavement, making ploughing easier, and also helps prevent icing before
snow accumulates.

On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 21:48:57 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

I watched a show on my Sat unit - the salt in the north is
different than in the south - different 'salt' not sodium-cloride
calcium..... They showed tall stacks of a brownish 'salt' (a large
family of chemicals) and stated they normally served the western states
as needed but now since the supplies were short in the East, they were
looking for rail cars to haul the salt to the East in the volume they need.

"Salt", as used on roads, in the East at least, *is* Sodium Chloride.
There are huge mines under the Great Lakes, pulling trainloads of it
out constantly. Alternative "salts" are quite expensive.

Learned there is a good ole bunch of chemical sets used.

Used, certainly, but good old "table salt" is used in vast quantities.

...

On 2/6/2014 6:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.


A particular **** me right off thing! The other thing that ****es me right
off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane. In the
right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate. Behind
him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed of the
truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of you
to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on his
bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.


That's when you wish you were driving an M60.

http://tinyurl.com/kx4perz

On 2/14/2014 10:28 PM, Max wrote:
On 2/6/2014 6:33 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


The other problem is that if you do keep a safe distance between you
and the car in front of you, some Asshat will immediately occupy it.


A particular **** me right off thing! The other thing that ****es me
right
off is when you're on the interstate and traveling in the left lane.
In the
right lane is a truck that you are overtaking at a pretty good rate.
Behind
him is a car that is going somewhere between your speed and the speed
of the
truck. As you are just getting to the truck, the car pulls in front of
you
to pass the truck at his current rate of speed - because he simply can't
kick off his cruise control until you pass. Never fails - it happens just
as you are getting right up on the two of them. So now you're right on
his
bumper and he's continuing at his previous speed.


That's when you wish you were driving an M60.

http://tinyurl.com/kx4perz


WHO THE HELL SETS CRUISE CONTROL IN RAIN OR SNOW???

Fools

Richard wrote:


WHO THE HELL SETS CRUISE CONTROL IN RAIN OR SNOW???

Fools

Well it does depend on how hard it is raining or how much snow there is. If
stability is a concern under the conditions, I don't use cruise, for the
obvious reasons. In the case of the pet peeve you replied to though, the
thread kinda wandered from its origins to a more simple pet peeve statement.

--

-Mike-