( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun, eh??
LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar with
the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let them do
it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their PopTarts,
and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of a
big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by just
how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a goodly
large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100% fulla****.
A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or google
Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and *visually
useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant, minimalist,
functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas GR510 gantry
mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can ****
get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of HIDING
dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who allowed
me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which I spread
throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We realized that you
had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that most choices would be
regretted. We realized that if going the granite et al route, a single
color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?
--
EA

On 2/21/2013 7:10 AM, Existential Angst wrote:

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar with
the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let them do
it. My fillings are already hurting....

Snicker... When I redid the kitchen in our 1974 home - took it down to
bare floors and stud walls - we stopped at Big Orange to get some ideas
(perchance to buy) on cabinetry and what was available, price, etc.

We were politely informed by the kitchen lady (who apparently had been
transferred over to that department from the now-closed for the season
garden shop) that before they could take an order, THEIR "specialist"
would have to come out and measure the kitchen to "insure you have the
proper measurements and are ordering the right cabinets"g

I still wanted to see what the brands out there had to offer so I played
along since we were already in the store. Sitting down with her and her
catalogs and magic computer (that's how they make them experts, you know
- a computer program that will amaze/amuse even a kindergartner)it
quickly became apparent from her "deer in the headlights" look every
time I asked a question that she had, indeed, come in from the garden
center where she was more comfortable with plants since her IQ matched
theirs.

After about the fifth, "Er, ah..." we got up and left basically telling
her there was no way in hell we had any confidence in their product
knowledge and would be buying elsewhere... and did.


The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?



This is the easy question, EZ. Haven't you seen that t-shirt? "If
Momma Ain't Happy, Ain't Nobody Happy!"

Don't sell her, let her take the lead and you just nod your head and
follow along. If nothing else, you'll have the satisfaction of saying
"I tried to tell you..." as she blames you for the problems with her new
kitchen.g

On Feb 21, 8:10*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
( RCM-ers.... *skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen.....
tit for tat, I spose.... *no pun intended.... *but an excellent pun, eh??
LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), *mostly to get familiar with
the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let them do
it. *My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... *'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. *I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their PopTarts,
and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: *alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... **gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of a
big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by just
how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... *a REAL kitchen??
* Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a goodly
large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100% fulla****.

Angst,

I'd not use shelves in a kitchen. Kitchen air has lots of dust and grease
in it. Put things in cabinets and drawers to keep them clean. Expect to
clean the cabinet surfaces fairly often, so stay away from ornate cabinets.
No opinion on stone countertops.

Dave M.
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood, deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an
excellent pun, eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their
PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and
pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of
a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by
just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of
HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which
I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite et
al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?
--
EA

On 2/21/2013 7:10 AM, Existential Angst wrote:

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?

The ONLY person who must be totally happy is the lady of the house ...
her approval is mandatory, upfront.

Build houses, and the kitchens that go in them.

Here is an excellent resource that will keep any lady busy for hours
with regard to kitchens and other remodeling plans/possibilities:

http://www.houzz.com/

(if you/she has an iPad, even better ... Houzz has an outstanding IOS app)

In the interest of your pocketbook, I find this calculator to be very
accurate, as it coincides with my own, home rolled Excel spreadsheet
which is based on my actual costs for the past decade of kitchen
building/remodeling:

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/page...s-countertops/

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Existential Angst wrote:

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

Logically, open for stuff that is used with great frequency, cabinets - or a
pantry - for the rest.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through
or translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice,
and can also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum
plate.

Undeniably, glass can be attractive. Also indeniably, it seems to be a
magnet for grease, streaks, dust and assorted crud.

My own feeling re a kitchen - or any workspace - are that it should minimize
the effort to use it. That means thought about where things are placed and
the amount of space between them. It also means easy accessibility to the
tools.

How many people will be working in it at the same time? If just one, you
need about 36" minimum for aisles; 42" is better, more than 48" and you are
wasting space. If more than one, I would think 60" or a bit more would be
about right.

The things that are used in a particular area need to be convenient to that
area; eg, pots/pans/skillets should be accesible to the stove area, not
require traipsing across the kitchen to get one. Dish cabinets should be
very near the sink or diswasher. I know that seems fundamental but I've
seen many instances of it not being considered.

Again personally, I don't like frame and panel cabinet doors in a kitchen
for the same reason I wouldn't like glass...the edges attract crud and are
hard to clean. When I built ours I made full overlay, solid wood doors.
The edges are rounded but no other profiles to catch dust.

Getting back to open shelves vs cabinets, I think a lot would depend upon
the people involved; if they are willing to dust/clean very frequently, open
shelves could be nice; if not - we are not - I would eschew them in favor of
cabinets.

I'm pretty much with you on the granite but not with glass on top of
something else. My only experience with same was a glass covered dining
table in a rented apartment when we were living in Mexico. It was a
pain...any spilled liguid wicked underneath; assorted crumbs and crud
managed to find a way under.

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy spellings.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood, deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an
excellent pun, eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their
PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and
pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of
a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by
just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of
HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which
I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite et
al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?

Some people are serious about their kitchens, including renters:
http://gothamist.com/2010/02/24/ikea_couple.php

Not great pubicity for Ikea.... LOL
--
EA





--
EA

On Feb 21, 6:49*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:
Angst,

* *I'd not use shelves in a kitchen. Kitchen air has lots of dust and grease
in it. Put things in cabinets and drawers to keep them clean. Expect to
clean the cabinet surfaces fairly often, so stay away from ornate cabinets.
* *No opinion on stone countertops.

Dave M."Existential Angst" wrote in message

...



( RCM-ers.... *skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood, deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... *no pun intended.... *but an
excellent pun, eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), *mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. *My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... *'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. *I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their
PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and
pizza.....

Oh, and old news: *alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... **gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of
a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by
just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... *a REAL kitchen??
*Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...526&RN=204*(or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving *In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. *Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. *The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... *just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of
HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which
I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. *We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. *We realized that if going the granite et
al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. *Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. *If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. *And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. *The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... * LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?
--
EA

Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces.
Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Of the countertops we've lived with:
1. painted = NO WAY!
2. glass over painted - irritating deterioration occurs UNDER the
glass and don't sit anything really heavy or hot on it. Nice to be
able to put ANY paper patterning under the glass. However, the effect
we had looked cheap, amateur do-it-yourself looking.
3. formica - NO WAY! chemicals EAT right through the tops of formica
turning to white ANY color pattern and worse turning the surfaces into
mush, bleach will do this to formica.
4. tile - NO WAY! all those little cracks [grouting] to keep clean!
plus hairline cracks let liquid right through
5. stone - presently have patterned granite WOW! best surface EVER!
Kitchen always looks great, for example, the crumbs from slicing a
loaf of bread you can't even see them! [yes, one is stuck with the
pattern]

Note on the color of a counter top: presently the countertops are a
little darker than I like. I learned a long time ago that to make work
on a top easier keep the color light. The darker the countertop, the
more difficult it is to see what you're working on.

On 2/21/2013 9:08 AM, Robert Macy wrote:

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Nothing could be easier ... a spritz of WD40, and a paper towel, will
generally make a SS appliance look like brand new.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong...
EA

Except for Elegant that could describe a submarine's galley.
http://www.maritime.org/tour/cm-galley.php

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

SNIP
Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun, eh??
LOL

Wife designed our house layout. Great.Since we moved in I had to change the
following to her liking.
Close off one kitchen door. Move cabinets and add more cabinets. Then lower
cabinets so she could reach things better.
Move front door entry closet and close off another door. This involved
moving some of the hot water heat base board tubes.
Adding Drawers and enclosed shelving in entry way to attached garage. Make a
TV and audio electronic cabinet.
Built a custom computer table. Good thing I like to do these things. Some
day I MAY get to fixing up my shop. WW

clipped
So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

I had one kitchen that was quite large but had very little cabinet
space. I was also buying antiques at the time and had a 50" round oak
table, a bakers cabinet (sans flour sifter) with bin drawers and a pie
safe. I used decorated tins for storing food stuff; they were cheap and
sturdy. Glass cannisters (Walmart still carries the same style), and
glass jars with plastic seals for stuff like beans, rice. Food makes a
decent display theme and I like stuff at hand. That said, I would never
use open shelves in a kitchen unless it was for something used
daily...too dusty and greasy.

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of HIDING
dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I've never been a fan of granite...good old practical Formica is fine.
One mistake, in choosing a stone-pattern Formica was that it was hard to
tell when there were crumbs on it. Good disguise )

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who allowed
me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which I spread
throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We realized that you
had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that most choices would be
regretted. We realized that if going the granite et al route, a single
color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Anodized alum would probably scratch. Glass would be insane for
countertops. Out of necessity, we used it for backsplash above our
cooktop and I loved it...pressed pattern glass with the smooth side out
was super easy to clean, and solid laminate behind it. Could put any
pattern of laminate or ?wallpaper, or colored glass. No tile grout for
me. The backsplash was sealed all around so no gunk or steam behind it...

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

I have suddenly, in my old age, craved simplicity...not a lot of
decoration, smooth front cabinets that are easy to clean and DURABLE.
My cupboards are never arranged so I would want the contents visible.
If I had elegant dishes and glassware, and loads of space, maybe.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?


A lot depends on how you use the kitchen...cook three meals a day for a
family, eat out a lot, gourmet cooking, entertain a lot and want the
company in kitchen whilst cooking?

My present kitchen is small but very well organized and easy to work in.
I have crocks on the counter for utensils and measuring spoons and
stuff. Corner lazy susan is a must. Window above sink, very bright
during day but lousy lighting at night...hate cfl bulbs.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:10:46 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:

( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun,
eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall
beautiful, 'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving),
I'll bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are
actually used to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat
1.25" granite all over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and
toaster-up their PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving
yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile
of a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was
struck by just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional
and very funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving. Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found
them to be all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like)
alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks
good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer
eyes are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns,
which actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job
of HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble,
which I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite
et al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever
breaks, cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design
potential there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and
can also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL Thoughts, idears,
experiences?

Our kitchen counters are all tile. If we're holding a hot pot and we say
"I need to put this thing down NOW!!! WTF can I put this thing?" the
answer is always "anywhere that's flat". And I mean anywhere in the
whole kitchen, because the whole kitchen counter is tile.

You cannot imagine the convenience of that until you've lived it. That's
one thing that stone would give you. I'd suggest that if you use glass,
use tempered glass and test a sheet of it with a pot roast fresh from the
oven. I would be suspicious of aluminum -- it'd spread the heat both
down into the underlying glue and across the counter to whatever is close
by (like, say, your hand).

The tile is patterned, but it's much less aggressive than granite, and
it's light colored. It's also textured, which is a pain if you're
kneading bread -- marble would solve that problem, though, and still
provide the "everywhere is a hot pad" goodness.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 2/21/2013 10:30 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:10:46 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:

( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun,
eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall
beautiful, 'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving),
I'll bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are
actually used to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat
1.25" granite all over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and
toaster-up their PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving
yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile
of a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was
struck by just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional
and very funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving. Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found
them to be all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like)
alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks
good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer
eyes are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns,
which actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job
of HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble,
which I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite
et al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever
breaks, cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design
potential there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and
can also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL Thoughts, idears,
experiences?

Our kitchen counters are all tile. If we're holding a hot pot and we say
"I need to put this thing down NOW!!! WTF can I put this thing?" the
answer is always "anywhere that's flat". And I mean anywhere in the
whole kitchen, because the whole kitchen counter is tile.

You cannot imagine the convenience of that until you've lived it. That's
one thing that stone would give you. I'd suggest that if you use glass,
use tempered glass and test a sheet of it with a pot roast fresh from the
oven. I would be suspicious of aluminum -- it'd spread the heat both
down into the underlying glue and across the counter to whatever is close
by (like, say, your hand).

The tile is patterned, but it's much less aggressive than granite, and
it's light colored. It's also textured, which is a pain if you're
kneading bread -- marble would solve that problem, though, and still
provide the "everywhere is a hot pad" goodness.


i used granite tiles set abutting. grout is a minimal 1/16" or less.

i wouldn't use tempered glass, unless it was 1" thick or more. at that
thickness, you're looking at granite costs and weight.

On Feb 21, 8:32*am, "dadiOH" wrote:

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy spellings.

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost
urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure
what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through
all that crap.

I got this far because I saw that you and Karl responded....

Robert

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message news:Kf-

Our kitchen counters are all tile. If we're holding a hot pot and
we say
"I need to put this thing down NOW!!! WTF can I put this thing?"
the
answer is always "anywhere that's flat". And I mean anywhere in the
whole kitchen, because the whole kitchen counter is tile.

Tim Wescott

In the winter I cook on the woodstove in the shop. "anywhere that's
flat" for hot pans is the milling machine table.

wrote in message
...
On Feb 21, 8:32 am, "dadiOH" wrote:

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy
spellings.

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost
urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure
what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through
all that crap.
=================================================

Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer too
stupid to figger out "what I want", and yet somehow you know it's not
inneresting enough to read.....
Typical non-sequitur of the bitchily ignerint....

Oh, yeah, of course.... here ya go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
Study hard.
--
EA



I got this far because I saw that you and Karl responded....

Robert

Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say based on
the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is... you.

and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not interesting
enough to read through.


--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say based on
the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is... you.

and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not interesting
enough to read through.

You too?? Jeez......
--
EA




--

-Mike-

Existential Angst wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say
based on the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is...
you.
and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not
interesting enough to read through.

You too?? Jeez......


Not trying to pick on you, but Robert didn't really say anything in his
comments that warranted your comments back to him. Your writing style is
cumbersome - at least for some, and the result is that those people won't
bother with it, regardless of whether it contains something of value.

--

-Mike-

On 2/21/2013 3:44 PM, Existential Angst wrote:

You too?? Jeez......

Did try to reply with some information you might be able to use, but I
gave up also ... simply too hard to follow.

Skimmed it as best I could, but I have to say it was indeed hard to get
to the pith of your intent.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Existential Angst wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru
it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had
to say
based on the way you post. The one showing his stupid
here is...
you.
and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is
not
interesting enough to read through.

You too?? Jeez......


WTF? Do you want people to respond or waste time trying to
deciper what the **** you're asking?
Post your ? *clearly* without the BS and attitude.
Pretty simple concept to me.

ChairMan wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in
message
...
Existential Angst wrote:

Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru
it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",
Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had
to say
based on the way you post. The one showing his stupid
here is...
you.
and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....
Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is
not
interesting enough to read through.
You too?? Jeez......

WTF? Do you want people to respond or waste time trying to
deciper what the **** you're asking?
Post your ? *clearly* without the BS and attitude.
Pretty simple concept to me.


Near as I could figure, the question concerned: "Wall space: Shelves
versus drawers".
I went back to the post 3 times, and never honestly made it all the way
to the end--but its time
we get to the bottom of it! I restricted my reply to rec.woodworking.

Bill

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:10:46 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

It's too bad you can't write worth crap.

illiterate rant snipped

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:08:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Feb 21, 6:49*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:
Angst,

* *I'd not use shelves in a kitchen. Kitchen air has lots of dust and grease
in it. Put things in cabinets and drawers to keep them clean. Expect to
clean the cabinet surfaces fairly often, so stay away from ornate cabinets.
* *No opinion on stone countertops.

Dave M."Existential Angst" wrote in message

...



EA's illiterate rant snipped


Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces.
Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Glass doors are harder to keep clean than stainless appliances, which
you seem to hate (below).

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Not all stainless is the same. Our 'fridge is pretty easy to keep
clean. Other appliances (contractor stuff hasn't been replaced yet),
not so much.

Of the countertops we've lived with:
1. painted = NO WAY!

Agreed. No way is paint hard enough for a surface. We saw one house
that had a painted sink!

2. glass over painted - irritating deterioration occurs UNDER the
glass and don't sit anything really heavy or hot on it. Nice to be
able to put ANY paper patterning under the glass. However, the effect
we had looked cheap, amateur do-it-yourself looking.

Have never seen that. Sounds dangerous.

3. formica - NO WAY! chemicals EAT right through the tops of formica
turning to white ANY color pattern and worse turning the surfaces into
mush, bleach will do this to formica.

They're cheap (throw away).

4. tile - NO WAY! all those little cracks [grouting] to keep clean!
plus hairline cracks let liquid right through

Agreed.

5. stone - presently have patterned granite WOW! best surface EVER!
Kitchen always looks great, for example, the crumbs from slicing a
loaf of bread you can't even see them! [yes, one is stuck with the
pattern]

With you 100%. Granite is the end-all kitchen surface. It's great
for baking, too. ;-)

Note on the color of a counter top: presently the countertops are a
little darker than I like. I learned a long time ago that to make work
on a top easier keep the color light. The darker the countertop, the
more difficult it is to see what you're working on.

Yep, I didn't much like the speckled top in our last house but it
doesn't show *any* dirt. The counter in this house is darker (brown,
about the color of toast, really) but still isn't bad. We'll never
have kitchen counter tops other than granite, again. We'll probably
change all the bathrooms to granite over the next couple of years.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:35:21 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:


Don't sell her, let her take the lead and you just nod your head and
follow along. If nothing else, you'll have the satisfaction of saying
"I tried to tell you..." as she blames you for the problems with her new
kitchen.g


Exactly. Then you simply ask, "Who was it who wanted to design a
kitchen around a cannister set?"
BTW, I gave my wife an expensive cannister set as a gift. Ceramic.
She oohed and aahed, displayed them empty on the counter for maybe 2
months, then stored them in the basement.
She's a professional chef.
BTW, about 12 years later we started to give them to a daughter but
found the "brass" hardware had corroded. Dumped them at Goodwill.
The hardware will collect grease even if it doesn't corrode.
As somebody else said, everything behind doors and flat surfaces makes
for much easy kitchen cleaning.

On 02/21/2013 06:29 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:35:21 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:


Don't sell her, let her take the lead and you just nod your head and
follow along. If nothing else, you'll have the satisfaction of saying
"I tried to tell you..." as she blames you for the problems with her new
kitchen.g


Exactly. Then you simply ask, "Who was it who wanted to design a
kitchen around a cannister set?"
BTW, I gave my wife an expensive cannister set as a gift. Ceramic.
She oohed and aahed, displayed them empty on the counter for maybe 2
months, then stored them in the basement.
She's a professional chef.
BTW, about 12 years later we started to give them to a daughter but
found the "brass" hardware had corroded. Dumped them at Goodwill.
The hardware will collect grease even if it doesn't corrode.
As somebody else said, everything behind doors and flat surfaces makes
for much easy kitchen cleaning.

Same thing goes for the shop. I used to have tools and such hanging on
pegboard. Now, I hung the cheapest HD cabinets over a 16' workbench/RAS
saw and have much more storage with much less dust.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen....

You have a shop. Build your cupboards. Look around. There will be someone
in the area making custom doors. The boxes are easy.

"ChairMan" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say
based on the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is...
you.
and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not
interesting enough to read through.

You too?? Jeez......


WTF? Do you want people to respond or waste time trying to deciper what
the **** you're asking?
Post your ? *clearly* without the BS and attitude.
Pretty simple concept to me.


Methinks y'all need better respirators or sumpn, mebbe better ventilation??
If you think any of that needed deciphering, might I suggest
http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/
They're all over the country. There's also evening adult ed in most
community (2-yr, associates degree) colleges -- you know,
subject-object-predicate......

See, part of the problem is y'all's inability to *abstract* and
contextualize.
True, the Q was preceded by a bit of a pre-amble, some context, if you will,
and I'm sorry that preamble threw you all for such a fukn loop, into such a
fukn tizzy.

So let me rephrase for the sawdust-addled and slow-witted:

I'm questioning the whole zeitgeist (no, not ghetto slang, for the
nailshooter asshole.... he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist )
of the HGTV notion of kitchen design, vividly illustrated by the article on
the home kitchen of the prof'l chef I mentioned.
Obviously, most of you complaining assholes have bought into the HGTV
mind****..... and I'm not saying that the HGTV mind**** is necessarily a
BAD or incorrect mind****, just querying alternatives.
And I'm speculating that alternatives are not being provided, for obvious
commercial reasons.

I appreciate most of the other responses (obviously they don't have your
reading comprehension problems, and/or are able to appreciate the general
design issue), and some of those responses helped clarify a few things, such
as the wicking problem with glass, the discussion of various surfaces, the
grease issue of shelving, etc.

To the other slow-wits, mebbe y'all should find sumpn to punctuate....
yourselves, mebbe??

OH, OH..... he said "mebbe"..... TWICE!!!!
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "sumpn".....
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "y'all".....
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

Oh, don't say I never gave you anything:
http://faculty.washington.edu/heager...trunkWhite.pdf
Strunk & White, Elements of Style -- guar-own-teed curriculum in a 4 year
school, mebbe not in adult ed.
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "guar-own-teed"......
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH
--
EA

Existential Angst wrote:


See, part of the problem is y'all's inability to *abstract* and
contextualize.
True, the Q was preceded by a bit of a pre-amble, some context, if
you will, and I'm sorry that preamble threw you all for such a fukn
loop, into such a fukn tizzy.

It really didn't. No tizzy, no loop. Just didn't want to bother with it
given all the *abstractions*. It was just a case of moving on to the next
post.


So let me rephrase for the sawdust-addled and slow-witted:

I'm questioning the whole zeitgeist (no, not ghetto slang, for the
nailshooter asshole.... he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist ) of
the HGTV notion of kitchen design, vividly illustrated by the
article on the home kitchen of the prof'l chef I mentioned.
Obviously, most of you complaining assholes have bought into the HGTV
mind****..... and I'm not saying that the HGTV mind**** is
necessarily a BAD or incorrect mind****, just querying alternatives.
And I'm speculating that alternatives are not being provided, for
obvious commercial reasons.

I appreciate most of the other responses (obviously they don't have
your reading comprehension problems, and/or are able to appreciate
the general design issue), and some of those responses helped clarify
a few things, such as the wicking problem with glass, the discussion
of various surfaces, the grease issue of shelving, etc.


Well then - it worked for you. Some here didn't mind your posting style and
responded, which resulted in the dialog expanding, and you benefited in
that. Others didn't. No need to go on about it as if you are personally
insulted that they didn't.

--

-Mike-

Existential Angst wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Feb 21, 8:32 am, "dadiOH" wrote:

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy
spellings.

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost
urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure
what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through
all that crap.
=================================================

Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want", and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....
Typical non-sequitur of the bitchily ignerint....

Oh, yeah, of course.... here ya go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
Study hard.

Temper, temper. Maybe a nap would help

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 2/22/2013 4:40 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"ChairMan" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say
based on the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is...
you.
and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not
interesting enough to read through.

You too?? Jeez......


WTF? Do you want people to respond or waste time trying to deciper what
the **** you're asking?
Post your ? *clearly* without the BS and attitude.
Pretty simple concept to me.


Methinks y'all need better respirators or sumpn, mebbe better ventilation??
If you think any of that needed deciphering, might I suggest
http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/
They're all over the country. There's also evening adult ed in most
community (2-yr, associates degree) colleges -- you know,
subject-object-predicate......

See, part of the problem is y'all's inability to *abstract* and
contextualize.
True, the Q was preceded by a bit of a pre-amble, some context, if you will,
and I'm sorry that preamble threw you all for such a fukn loop, into such a
fukn tizzy.

So let me rephrase for the sawdust-addled and slow-witted:

I'm questioning the whole zeitgeist (no, not ghetto slang, for the
nailshooter asshole.... he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist )
of the HGTV notion of kitchen design, vividly illustrated by the article on
the home kitchen of the prof'l chef I mentioned.
Obviously, most of you complaining assholes have bought into the HGTV
mind****..... and I'm not saying that the HGTV mind**** is necessarily a
BAD or incorrect mind****, just querying alternatives.
And I'm speculating that alternatives are not being provided, for obvious
commercial reasons.

I appreciate most of the other responses (obviously they don't have your
reading comprehension problems, and/or are able to appreciate the general
design issue), and some of those responses helped clarify a few things, such
as the wicking problem with glass, the discussion of various surfaces, the
grease issue of shelving, etc.

To the other slow-wits, mebbe y'all should find sumpn to punctuate....
yourselves, mebbe??

OH, OH..... he said "mebbe"..... TWICE!!!!
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "sumpn".....
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "y'all".....
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

Oh, don't say I never gave you anything:
http://faculty.washington.edu/heager...trunkWhite.pdf
Strunk & White, Elements of Style -- guar-own-teed curriculum in a 4 year
school, mebbe not in adult ed.
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "guar-own-teed"......
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH


LOL............didn't bother me nearly as much as hearing McCain/Graham
blathering on in their latest outrage of political posturing. McCain is
an angry old fart who cares more about getting re-elected than about
keeping the military intact during a time of ****ing war. How about
'dem Chineeze?

And, yes, **** granite )

Existential Angst wrote:
To the other slow-wits, mebbe y'all should find sumpn to punctuate....
yourselves, mebbe??

OH, OH..... he said "mebbe"..... TWICE!!!!
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "sumpn".....
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "y'all".....
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

Oh, don't say I never gave you anything:
http://faculty.washington.edu/heager...trunkWhite.pdf
Strunk & White, Elements of Style -- guar-own-teed curriculum in a 4
year school, mebbe not in adult ed.
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "guar-own-teed"......
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

How arrogant.

About the only person here who needs a treatise on the elements of style is
you. Oh, wait...are your cutesy spellings an attempt at a distinctive
writing style? An attempt to separate yourself from the herd? To lift
yourself from the depths of mediocrity? Doesn't work.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 05:38:13 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

It really didn't. No tizzy, no loop. Just didn't want to bother with it
given all the *abstractions*. It was just a case of moving on to the next
post.

Agreed. I'd compare it to text that had irregular usage of capitals
and lower case or text that was all in capitals, or text without any
paragraphs. You *can* read and understand it if you take the time, but
why? It's just so much easier to skip it and go onto the next message.

On 2/22/2013 7:20 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:
To the other slow-wits, mebbe y'all should find sumpn to punctuate....
yourselves, mebbe??

OH, OH..... he said "mebbe"..... TWICE!!!!
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "sumpn".....
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "y'all".....
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

Oh, don't say I never gave you anything:
http://faculty.washington.edu/heager...trunkWhite.pdf
Strunk & White, Elements of Style -- guar-own-teed curriculum in a 4
year school, mebbe not in adult ed.
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "guar-own-teed"......
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

How arrogant.

About the only person here who needs a treatise on the elements of style is
you. Oh, wait...are your cutesy spellings an attempt at a distinctive
writing style? An attempt to separate yourself from the herd? To lift
yourself from the depths of mediocrity? Doesn't work.


I have to think he was mainly trying to draw us a picture of
"Existential Angst"--not that it belongs here. That over, lets move on
and waste no more.

Bill

"Norminn" wrote in message
...
On 2/22/2013 4:40 AM, Existential Angst wrote:
"ChairMan" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say
based on the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is...
you.
and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not
interesting enough to read through.

You too?? Jeez......


WTF? Do you want people to respond or waste time trying to deciper what
the **** you're asking?
Post your ? *clearly* without the BS and attitude.
Pretty simple concept to me.


Methinks y'all need better respirators or sumpn, mebbe better
ventilation??
If you think any of that needed deciphering, might I suggest
http://tutoring.sylvanlearning.com/
They're all over the country. There's also evening adult ed in most
community (2-yr, associates degree) colleges -- you know,
subject-object-predicate......

See, part of the problem is y'all's inability to *abstract* and
contextualize.
True, the Q was preceded by a bit of a pre-amble, some context, if you
will,
and I'm sorry that preamble threw you all for such a fukn loop, into such
a
fukn tizzy.

So let me rephrase for the sawdust-addled and slow-witted:

I'm questioning the whole zeitgeist (no, not ghetto slang, for the
nailshooter asshole.... he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist )
of the HGTV notion of kitchen design, vividly illustrated by the article
on
the home kitchen of the prof'l chef I mentioned.
Obviously, most of you complaining assholes have bought into the HGTV
mind****..... and I'm not saying that the HGTV mind**** is necessarily a
BAD or incorrect mind****, just querying alternatives.
And I'm speculating that alternatives are not being provided, for obvious
commercial reasons.

I appreciate most of the other responses (obviously they don't have your
reading comprehension problems, and/or are able to appreciate the general
design issue), and some of those responses helped clarify a few things,
such
as the wicking problem with glass, the discussion of various surfaces,
the
grease issue of shelving, etc.

To the other slow-wits, mebbe y'all should find sumpn to punctuate....
yourselves, mebbe??

OH, OH..... he said "mebbe"..... TWICE!!!!
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "sumpn".....
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "y'all".....
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

Oh, don't say I never gave you anything:
http://faculty.washington.edu/heager...trunkWhite.pdf
Strunk & White, Elements of Style -- guar-own-teed curriculum in a 4 year
school, mebbe not in adult ed.
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "guar-own-teed"......
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH


LOL............didn't bother me nearly as much as hearing McCain/Graham
blathering on in their latest outrage of political posturing. McCain is
an angry old fart who cares more about getting re-elected than about
keeping the military intact during a time of ****ing war. How about 'dem
Chineeze?

And, yes, **** granite )

FINALLY!!!!
Someone who gets it, has a sense of humuh.
OH!!!

Actually, what the petty li'l nannies (ninnies??) on RW don't get is the
phonetic parody (poor as it might be) of the INCREDIBLE ilitiricy 'cross all
of fuknMerka.

POP QUIZ, boyzngerlz:
1. Just WHO introduced MERKA into the lexicon??? HINT #1, boyzngerlz (and
that asshole Nailshooter): He was a DUI RePube who liked to blow up frogs
with M80s.... Hint #2: the black guy kicked his ass....
2.. WHO (all 550 of them) has "legitimized" '"nookyooler"???).
3. How many of the assholes on RW say "nookyooler"???
4. But when Angst SPELLS nookyooler, he's an asshole, right?? Whazzup wit
DAT???

Here's another li'l hint:
If y'all are annoyed by """"my style"""", OK, cuz, well, sheeit, just ax
the Wife about annoyed.... lol
But, if anyone REALLY had trouble reading or """"deciphering"""" the op,
man, you REALLY need to contact Sylvan, cuz yer reading level is likely
sub-4th grade, and you cain't handle the NYTimes -- some the assholes here
proly even read that NYTimes ditty on that chef's kitchen, and STILL don't
get it....

See, to boost reading comprehension, a woodworker has to (in addition to
wearing a good brain-approved respirator) read more than the assembly
instruction from the latest build-it-yerself project from Practical
Woodworker.

And if assholes here REALLY think Moi is ilitirit..... hooboy, swoosh on
them....

OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH........ He's still doin it.... He
said "ilitirit".......

I tell you, what scares me more than anything is being judged by a jury of
12..... and these assholes on RW illustrate this perfectly. Peers my
fuknass.....
--
EA

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


See, part of the problem is y'all's inability to *abstract* and
contextualize.
True, the Q was preceded by a bit of a pre-amble, some context, if
you will, and I'm sorry that preamble threw you all for such a fukn
loop, into such a fukn tizzy.

It really didn't. No tizzy, no loop. Just didn't want to bother with it
given all the *abstractions*. It was just a case of moving on to the next
post.


So let me rephrase for the sawdust-addled and slow-witted:

I'm questioning the whole zeitgeist (no, not ghetto slang, for the
nailshooter asshole.... he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist )
of the HGTV notion of kitchen design, vividly illustrated by the
article on the home kitchen of the prof'l chef I mentioned.
Obviously, most of you complaining assholes have bought into the HGTV
mind****..... and I'm not saying that the HGTV mind**** is
necessarily a BAD or incorrect mind****, just querying alternatives.
And I'm speculating that alternatives are not being provided, for
obvious commercial reasons.

I appreciate most of the other responses (obviously they don't have
your reading comprehension problems, and/or are able to appreciate
the general design issue), and some of those responses helped clarify
a few things, such as the wicking problem with glass, the discussion
of various surfaces, the grease issue of shelving, etc.


Well then - it worked for you. Some here didn't mind your posting style
and responded, which resulted in the dialog expanding, and you benefited
in that. Others didn't. No need to go on about it as if you are
personally insulted that they didn't.

Hey, ahm just tryna help people, and promote world peace.
After all, I DID provide a bevy of useful, helpful links, right?
Altho admittedly, Sylvan is a li'l 'spensive.......

OH, OH, OH, OH, there he goes again.....
--
EA


--

-Mike-

On Feb 21, 6:12*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:08:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
...snip...
Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces.
Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Glass doors are harder to keep clean than stainless appliances, which
you seem to hate (below).

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Not all stainless is the same. *Our 'fridge is pretty easy to keep
clean. *Other appliances (contractor stuff hasn't been replaced yet),
not so much.
... snip....

After fighting with various commercially available compounds, my wife
discovered that the best cleaner for stainless steel of almost all
types was ...Dial sanitizing liquid hand soap. Rubbed on and wiped dry
actually polished to a sparkling beautiful finish. But alas someone
changed the product and it doesn't work well now.

She gave up cleaning any glass surface. Windex streaked and streaked
and streaked. However, I found Walmart brand of glass cleaner provides
a great sprayer at $1.88 and the product cleans well and doesn't
streak. Unless dries before removal. And of course, use cheap paper
towels, else there are usually some type of lotion or such in them
that streaks too. To check if a paper towel has 'additives' in it?
Simply pour bleach on it. If it gets warm, or hot enough to burn you,
it has additives that will streak when you clean.

After fighting SS cleaners, my wife has delegated me to be the
custodian of all the glass and stainless steel cleaning in our home. I
finally found the BEST cleaner ever! Clean well then ONLY clean with
distilled water and cheap paper towels. Squeegee the bathroom mirrors
in 20 seconds DONE! Inside/outside windows? Take about a minute each.
I tell you distilled water is a MIRACLE product. Alas, it 'almost'
works on SS kitchen apliances. Front surfaces stay cleaned for about a
month. But, the fridge doors are a constant battle. We don't touch the
SS with hands to prevent human oil blotting their surfaces, but even
that doesn't work well. Have to clean that !@#@$#%^@$ !!!! fridge
almost everyday. Shouldn't say clean, mean polish.

The manufacturers have solved the countertop problem with granite -
robust and hides crumbs. But, they really need to work on finding a
surface for appliances. Probably find some aerospace material works,
like carbon composite with laminated granite?

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
To the other slow-wits, mebbe y'all should find sumpn to punctuate....
yourselves, mebbe??

OH, OH..... he said "mebbe"..... TWICE!!!!
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "sumpn".....
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "y'all".....
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

Oh, don't say I never gave you anything:
http://faculty.washington.edu/heager...trunkWhite.pdf
Strunk & White, Elements of Style -- guar-own-teed curriculum in a 4
year school, mebbe not in adult ed.
OH, OH, OH, OH..... he said "guar-own-teed"......
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH

How arrogant.

About the only person here who needs a treatise on the elements of style
is you.

Hmmmm...... might I be even more arrogant and correck your syntax?
Elements of Style WAS the treatise -- albeit a short, succinct one.

What you SHOULD have said -- and I'm sure you meant to -- was:
"About the only person here who needs a treatise on style......."

Oh, wait...are your cutesy spellings an attempt at a distinctive writing
style? An attempt to separate yourself from the herd? To lift yourself
from the depths of mediocrity? Doesn't work.

Dood...... it's fukn USENET..... give it a break, already.
Dayum.... and I thought you were one of the normal ones.....

And where's the gratitude??
Moi had to PAY for that goddamm StrunknWhite.... and ahm giving it away for
free....

Ackshooly, I never really agreed with ole Strunk.... yeah, **** has to be
standardized, but goddamm, there's standardization and there's stifling.
**** granite, and **** stifling.

ANOTHER POP QUIZ, boyzngerlz.....

WHO was the White in Strunk'n'White??

No matter, y'all are going to cheat anyway, and look it up.....
He was EB White, who wrote Charlotte's Web, Stuart Little, and a bunch of
other children's classics, and a longtime contributor/editor in The
N'Yawker. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._B._White
Proly one of THE most :"decorated" writers. No Nobel Prize, but dat dudn't
mean **** anyway.... they wasted one on Hemmingway..... and even worser,
one on Herman Hesse.... GOODGAWD!!!!!!!!!!

But y'all litirits KNEW that, right??
Yeah, riiiiight.....

Here's what ahm thinkin:

All those who had so much trouble deciphering the op, get copies of Stuart
Little and Charlotte's Web, and work on yer comprehension...... EB White
knew what he was doing, and y'all's reading comprehension should jump by at
least two grades when you finish them. Proly you can find Cliff's Notes on
them, as well, iffin you need help.

And WHERE did the adventures of Stuart Little take place?? Why, in the
Central Park Pond, in.... N'Yawk....

OH, OH, OH, OH, OH..... He did it AGAIN!!!! He said "N'Yawk" instead of
New York........ TWICE!!!
OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH OH, OH, OH, OH
--
EA



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

Methinks y'all need better respirators or sumpn, mebbe better
ventilation??

Your affected style might be cute if you had any real talent.