( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun, eh??
LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar with
the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let them do
it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their PopTarts,
and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of a
big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by just
how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a goodly
large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100% fulla****.
A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or google
Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and *visually
useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant, minimalist,
functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas GR510 gantry
mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can ****
get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of HIDING
dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who allowed
me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which I spread
throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We realized that you
had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that most choices would be
regretted. We realized that if going the granite et al route, a single
color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?
--
EA

On 2/21/2013 7:10 AM, Existential Angst wrote:

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar with
the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let them do
it. My fillings are already hurting....

Snicker... When I redid the kitchen in our 1974 home - took it down to
bare floors and stud walls - we stopped at Big Orange to get some ideas
(perchance to buy) on cabinetry and what was available, price, etc.

We were politely informed by the kitchen lady (who apparently had been
transferred over to that department from the now-closed for the season
garden shop) that before they could take an order, THEIR "specialist"
would have to come out and measure the kitchen to "insure you have the
proper measurements and are ordering the right cabinets"g

I still wanted to see what the brands out there had to offer so I played
along since we were already in the store. Sitting down with her and her
catalogs and magic computer (that's how they make them experts, you know
- a computer program that will amaze/amuse even a kindergartner)it
quickly became apparent from her "deer in the headlights" look every
time I asked a question that she had, indeed, come in from the garden
center where she was more comfortable with plants since her IQ matched
theirs.

After about the fifth, "Er, ah..." we got up and left basically telling
her there was no way in hell we had any confidence in their product
knowledge and would be buying elsewhere... and did.


The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?



This is the easy question, EZ. Haven't you seen that t-shirt? "If
Momma Ain't Happy, Ain't Nobody Happy!"

Don't sell her, let her take the lead and you just nod your head and
follow along. If nothing else, you'll have the satisfaction of saying
"I tried to tell you..." as she blames you for the problems with her new
kitchen.g

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:35:21 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:


Don't sell her, let her take the lead and you just nod your head and
follow along. If nothing else, you'll have the satisfaction of saying
"I tried to tell you..." as she blames you for the problems with her new
kitchen.g


Exactly. Then you simply ask, "Who was it who wanted to design a
kitchen around a cannister set?"
BTW, I gave my wife an expensive cannister set as a gift. Ceramic.
She oohed and aahed, displayed them empty on the counter for maybe 2
months, then stored them in the basement.
She's a professional chef.
BTW, about 12 years later we started to give them to a daughter but
found the "brass" hardware had corroded. Dumped them at Goodwill.
The hardware will collect grease even if it doesn't corrode.
As somebody else said, everything behind doors and flat surfaces makes
for much easy kitchen cleaning.

On 02/21/2013 06:29 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:35:21 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:


Don't sell her, let her take the lead and you just nod your head and
follow along. If nothing else, you'll have the satisfaction of saying
"I tried to tell you..." as she blames you for the problems with her new
kitchen.g


Exactly. Then you simply ask, "Who was it who wanted to design a
kitchen around a cannister set?"
BTW, I gave my wife an expensive cannister set as a gift. Ceramic.
She oohed and aahed, displayed them empty on the counter for maybe 2
months, then stored them in the basement.
She's a professional chef.
BTW, about 12 years later we started to give them to a daughter but
found the "brass" hardware had corroded. Dumped them at Goodwill.
The hardware will collect grease even if it doesn't corrode.
As somebody else said, everything behind doors and flat surfaces makes
for much easy kitchen cleaning.

Same thing goes for the shop. I used to have tools and such hanging on
pegboard. Now, I hung the cheapest HD cabinets over a 16' workbench/RAS
saw and have much more storage with much less dust.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

On Feb 21, 8:10*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
( RCM-ers.... *skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen.....
tit for tat, I spose.... *no pun intended.... *but an excellent pun, eh??
LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), *mostly to get familiar with
the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let them do
it. *My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... *'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. *I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their PopTarts,
and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: *alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... **gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of a
big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by just
how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... *a REAL kitchen??
* Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a goodly
large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100% fulla****.

Angst,

I'd not use shelves in a kitchen. Kitchen air has lots of dust and grease
in it. Put things in cabinets and drawers to keep them clean. Expect to
clean the cabinet surfaces fairly often, so stay away from ornate cabinets.
No opinion on stone countertops.

Dave M.
"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood, deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an
excellent pun, eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their
PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and
pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of
a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by
just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of
HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which
I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite et
al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?
--
EA

On Feb 21, 6:49*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:
Angst,

* *I'd not use shelves in a kitchen. Kitchen air has lots of dust and grease
in it. Put things in cabinets and drawers to keep them clean. Expect to
clean the cabinet surfaces fairly often, so stay away from ornate cabinets.
* *No opinion on stone countertops.

Dave M."Existential Angst" wrote in message

...



( RCM-ers.... *skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood, deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... *no pun intended.... *but an
excellent pun, eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), *mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. *My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... *'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. *I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their
PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and
pizza.....

Oh, and old news: *alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... **gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of
a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by
just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... *a REAL kitchen??
*Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...526&RN=204*(or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving *In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. *Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. *The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... *just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of
HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which
I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. *We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. *We realized that if going the granite et
al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. *Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. *If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. *And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. *The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... * LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?
--
EA

Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces.
Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Of the countertops we've lived with:
1. painted = NO WAY!
2. glass over painted - irritating deterioration occurs UNDER the
glass and don't sit anything really heavy or hot on it. Nice to be
able to put ANY paper patterning under the glass. However, the effect
we had looked cheap, amateur do-it-yourself looking.
3. formica - NO WAY! chemicals EAT right through the tops of formica
turning to white ANY color pattern and worse turning the surfaces into
mush, bleach will do this to formica.
4. tile - NO WAY! all those little cracks [grouting] to keep clean!
plus hairline cracks let liquid right through
5. stone - presently have patterned granite WOW! best surface EVER!
Kitchen always looks great, for example, the crumbs from slicing a
loaf of bread you can't even see them! [yes, one is stuck with the
pattern]

Note on the color of a counter top: presently the countertops are a
little darker than I like. I learned a long time ago that to make work
on a top easier keep the color light. The darker the countertop, the
more difficult it is to see what you're working on.

On 2/21/2013 9:08 AM, Robert Macy wrote:

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Nothing could be easier ... a spritz of WD40, and a paper towel, will
generally make a SS appliance look like brand new.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:08:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Feb 21, 6:49*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:
Angst,

* *I'd not use shelves in a kitchen. Kitchen air has lots of dust and grease
in it. Put things in cabinets and drawers to keep them clean. Expect to
clean the cabinet surfaces fairly often, so stay away from ornate cabinets.
* *No opinion on stone countertops.

Dave M."Existential Angst" wrote in message

...



EA's illiterate rant snipped


Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces.
Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Glass doors are harder to keep clean than stainless appliances, which
you seem to hate (below).

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Not all stainless is the same. Our 'fridge is pretty easy to keep
clean. Other appliances (contractor stuff hasn't been replaced yet),
not so much.

Of the countertops we've lived with:
1. painted = NO WAY!

Agreed. No way is paint hard enough for a surface. We saw one house
that had a painted sink!

2. glass over painted - irritating deterioration occurs UNDER the
glass and don't sit anything really heavy or hot on it. Nice to be
able to put ANY paper patterning under the glass. However, the effect
we had looked cheap, amateur do-it-yourself looking.

Have never seen that. Sounds dangerous.

3. formica - NO WAY! chemicals EAT right through the tops of formica
turning to white ANY color pattern and worse turning the surfaces into
mush, bleach will do this to formica.

They're cheap (throw away).

4. tile - NO WAY! all those little cracks [grouting] to keep clean!
plus hairline cracks let liquid right through

Agreed.

5. stone - presently have patterned granite WOW! best surface EVER!
Kitchen always looks great, for example, the crumbs from slicing a
loaf of bread you can't even see them! [yes, one is stuck with the
pattern]

With you 100%. Granite is the end-all kitchen surface. It's great
for baking, too. ;-)

Note on the color of a counter top: presently the countertops are a
little darker than I like. I learned a long time ago that to make work
on a top easier keep the color light. The darker the countertop, the
more difficult it is to see what you're working on.

Yep, I didn't much like the speckled top in our last house but it
doesn't show *any* dirt. The counter in this house is darker (brown,
about the color of toast, really) but still isn't bad. We'll never
have kitchen counter tops other than granite, again. We'll probably
change all the bathrooms to granite over the next couple of years.

On Feb 21, 6:12*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:08:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
...snip...
Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces.
Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Glass doors are harder to keep clean than stainless appliances, which
you seem to hate (below).

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Not all stainless is the same. *Our 'fridge is pretty easy to keep
clean. *Other appliances (contractor stuff hasn't been replaced yet),
not so much.
... snip....

After fighting with various commercially available compounds, my wife
discovered that the best cleaner for stainless steel of almost all
types was ...Dial sanitizing liquid hand soap. Rubbed on and wiped dry
actually polished to a sparkling beautiful finish. But alas someone
changed the product and it doesn't work well now.

She gave up cleaning any glass surface. Windex streaked and streaked
and streaked. However, I found Walmart brand of glass cleaner provides
a great sprayer at $1.88 and the product cleans well and doesn't
streak. Unless dries before removal. And of course, use cheap paper
towels, else there are usually some type of lotion or such in them
that streaks too. To check if a paper towel has 'additives' in it?
Simply pour bleach on it. If it gets warm, or hot enough to burn you,
it has additives that will streak when you clean.

After fighting SS cleaners, my wife has delegated me to be the
custodian of all the glass and stainless steel cleaning in our home. I
finally found the BEST cleaner ever! Clean well then ONLY clean with
distilled water and cheap paper towels. Squeegee the bathroom mirrors
in 20 seconds DONE! Inside/outside windows? Take about a minute each.
I tell you distilled water is a MIRACLE product. Alas, it 'almost'
works on SS kitchen apliances. Front surfaces stay cleaned for about a
month. But, the fridge doors are a constant battle. We don't touch the
SS with hands to prevent human oil blotting their surfaces, but even
that doesn't work well. Have to clean that !@#@$#%^@$ !!!! fridge
almost everyday. Shouldn't say clean, mean polish.

The manufacturers have solved the countertop problem with granite -
robust and hides crumbs. But, they really need to work on finding a
surface for appliances. Probably find some aerospace material works,
like carbon composite with laminated granite?

clipped

The manufacturers have solved the countertop problem with granite -
robust and hides crumbs. But, they really need to work on finding a
surface for appliances. Probably find some aerospace material works,
like carbon composite with laminated granite?


The Chinese have solved the problem for appliances...plastic, engineered
to not last long enough to get dirty. Last time I went shopping, I
tried to find something NOT made in China...all I could come up with was
a picture frame made in Mexico.

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 06:52:28 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Feb 21, 6:12*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:08:59 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
...snip...
Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces.
Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Glass doors are harder to keep clean than stainless appliances, which
you seem to hate (below).

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP
CLEAN LOOKING.

Not all stainless is the same. *Our 'fridge is pretty easy to keep
clean. *Other appliances (contractor stuff hasn't been replaced yet),
not so much.
... snip....

After fighting with various commercially available compounds, my wife
discovered that the best cleaner for stainless steel of almost all
types was ...Dial sanitizing liquid hand soap. Rubbed on and wiped dry
actually polished to a sparkling beautiful finish. But alas someone
changed the product and it doesn't work well now.

My wife found some wipes that work really well on stainless. They're
expensive but I was amazed how well they polished the sink (I lived in
the house six months before she moved - she gets the honors now ;-).

She gave up cleaning any glass surface. Windex streaked and streaked
and streaked. However, I found Walmart brand of glass cleaner provides
a great sprayer at $1.88 and the product cleans well and doesn't
streak. Unless dries before removal. And of course, use cheap paper
towels, else there are usually some type of lotion or such in them
that streaks too. To check if a paper towel has 'additives' in it?
Simply pour bleach on it. If it gets warm, or hot enough to burn you,
it has additives that will streak when you clean.

I don't have a problem with Windex but it does have to be taken off
before it dries. A last swipe with a little Windex on a paper towel
takes the last bit of streaks off. Watch the paper towels, though.
Some of the pretty printing dissolves in Windex and makes a mess of
paint. DAMHIKT.

After fighting SS cleaners, my wife has delegated me to be the
custodian of all the glass and stainless steel cleaning in our home. I
finally found the BEST cleaner ever! Clean well then ONLY clean with
distilled water and cheap paper towels. Squeegee the bathroom mirrors
in 20 seconds DONE! Inside/outside windows? Take about a minute each.
I tell you distilled water is a MIRACLE product. Alas, it 'almost'
works on SS kitchen apliances. Front surfaces stay cleaned for about a
month. But, the fridge doors are a constant battle. We don't touch the
SS with hands to prevent human oil blotting their surfaces, but even
that doesn't work well. Have to clean that !@#@$#%^@$ !!!! fridge
almost everyday. Shouldn't say clean, mean polish.

Interesting. I'll have to try it. It does make sense.

The manufacturers have solved the countertop problem with granite -
robust and hides crumbs. But, they really need to work on finding a
surface for appliances. Probably find some aerospace material works,
like carbon composite with laminated granite?

Like I said, our appliances don't show finger prints at all. There
seems to be an oleophobic coating on them (the non-contractor grade
ones).

Robert Macy wrote:

She gave up cleaning any glass surface. Windex streaked and streaked
and streaked. However, I found Walmart brand of glass cleaner provides
a great sprayer at $1.88 and the product cleans well and doesn't
streak. Unless dries before removal. And of course, use cheap paper
towels, else there are usually some type of lotion or such in them
that streaks too. To check if a paper towel has 'additives' in it?
Simply pour bleach on it. If it gets warm, or hot enough to burn you,
it has additives that will streak when you clean.

There are oodles of home-made glass cleaning formulas on the web. It's cheap
enough to try them one after another 'til you find the concoction that meets
your needs.

On 2/21/2013 7:10 AM, Existential Angst wrote:

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?

The ONLY person who must be totally happy is the lady of the house ...
her approval is mandatory, upfront.

Build houses, and the kitchens that go in them.

Here is an excellent resource that will keep any lady busy for hours
with regard to kitchens and other remodeling plans/possibilities:

http://www.houzz.com/

(if you/she has an iPad, even better ... Houzz has an outstanding IOS app)

In the interest of your pocketbook, I find this calculator to be very
accurate, as it coincides with my own, home rolled Excel spreadsheet
which is based on my actual costs for the past decade of kitchen
building/remodeling:

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/page...s-countertops/

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Existential Angst wrote:

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

Logically, open for stuff that is used with great frequency, cabinets - or a
pantry - for the rest.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through
or translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice,
and can also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum
plate.

Undeniably, glass can be attractive. Also indeniably, it seems to be a
magnet for grease, streaks, dust and assorted crud.

My own feeling re a kitchen - or any workspace - are that it should minimize
the effort to use it. That means thought about where things are placed and
the amount of space between them. It also means easy accessibility to the
tools.

How many people will be working in it at the same time? If just one, you
need about 36" minimum for aisles; 42" is better, more than 48" and you are
wasting space. If more than one, I would think 60" or a bit more would be
about right.

The things that are used in a particular area need to be convenient to that
area; eg, pots/pans/skillets should be accesible to the stove area, not
require traipsing across the kitchen to get one. Dish cabinets should be
very near the sink or diswasher. I know that seems fundamental but I've
seen many instances of it not being considered.

Again personally, I don't like frame and panel cabinet doors in a kitchen
for the same reason I wouldn't like glass...the edges attract crud and are
hard to clean. When I built ours I made full overlay, solid wood doors.
The edges are rounded but no other profiles to catch dust.

Getting back to open shelves vs cabinets, I think a lot would depend upon
the people involved; if they are willing to dust/clean very frequently, open
shelves could be nice; if not - we are not - I would eschew them in favor of
cabinets.

I'm pretty much with you on the granite but not with glass on top of
something else. My only experience with same was a glass covered dining
table in a rented apartment when we were living in Mexico. It was a
pain...any spilled liguid wicked underneath; assorted crumbs and crud
managed to find a way under.

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy spellings.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Feb 21, 8:32*am, "dadiOH" wrote:

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy spellings.

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost
urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure
what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through
all that crap.

I got this far because I saw that you and Karl responded....

Robert

wrote in message
...
On Feb 21, 8:32 am, "dadiOH" wrote:

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy
spellings.

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost
urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure
what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through
all that crap.
=================================================

Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer too
stupid to figger out "what I want", and yet somehow you know it's not
inneresting enough to read.....
Typical non-sequitur of the bitchily ignerint....

Oh, yeah, of course.... here ya go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
Study hard.
--
EA



I got this far because I saw that you and Karl responded....

Robert

Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say based on
the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is... you.

and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not interesting
enough to read through.


--

-Mike-

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:


Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want",

Read what he said - he was not interested in what you had to say based on
the way you post. The one showing his stupid here is... you.

and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....

Easy conclusion to arrive at. Your manner of writing is not interesting
enough to read through.

You too?? Jeez......
--
EA




--

-Mike-

Existential Angst wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Feb 21, 8:32 am, "dadiOH" wrote:

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy
spellings.

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost
urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure
what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through
all that crap.
=================================================

Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer
too stupid to figger out "what I want", and yet somehow you know it's
not inneresting enough to read.....
Typical non-sequitur of the bitchily ignerint....

Oh, yeah, of course.... here ya go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
Study hard.

Temper, temper. Maybe a nap would help

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

wrote in message
...
On Feb 21, 8:32 am, "dadiOH" wrote:

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy
spellings.

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost
urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure
what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through
all that crap.

I got this far because I saw that you and Karl responded....

Robert

================================================== ===========

BRAIN EXERCISES

If you can read this OUT LOUD, you have a strong mind. And better than that:
Alzheimer's is a long, long, way down the road before it ever gets anywhere
near you.





If you can read the following paragraph, forward it to your friends and the
person who sent it to you with 'Yes' in the subject line. Only very good
minds can read this. This is weird, but interesting!

7H15 M3554G3
53RV35 7O PR0V3
H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
17 WA5 H4RD BU7
N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
Y0UR M1ND 1S
R34D1NG 17
4U70M471C4LLY
W17H 0U7 3V3N
7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
B3 PROUD! 0NLY
C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
R3AD 7H15.
PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
U C4N R34D 7H15.




If you can read this, you are one of the 55 people out of 100 who can.





I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The
phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde
Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the
olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit
pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a
pboerlm. This is bcuseaethe huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef,
but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was
ipmorantt! If you can raed this forwrad it

================================================== ===

Since fuknNailShooter cain't read *my* simple ****, Alzheimers is proly
right around the corner for dat asshole.

--

EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

If you can read this, you are one of the 55 people out of 100 who
can.

YOU

CAN

READ

THIS

,

BUT

DO

YOU

WANT

TO

?

Existential Angst wrote:

If you can read the following paragraph, forward it to your friends
and the person who sent it to you with 'Yes' in the subject line.
Only very good minds can read this. This is weird, but interesting!

7H15 M3554G3
53RV35 7O PR0V3
H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
17 WA5 H4RD BU7
N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
Y0UR M1ND 1S
R34D1NG 17
4U70M471C4LLY
W17H 0U7 3V3N
7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
B3 PROUD! 0NLY
C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
R3AD 7H15.
PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
U C4N R34D 7H15.

It isn't all that hard to read but why bother? What's the point when one
can write it properly? And that is the whole point of those who disliked
your original post...you wanted feedback from readers so why not just post
your question/problem succinctly using reasonable English?

IOW, it isn't a problem of being unable to read your "simple ****", it's
just a matter of "why bother".

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:

If you can read the following paragraph, forward it to your friends
and the person who sent it to you with 'Yes' in the subject line.
Only very good minds can read this. This is weird, but interesting!

7H15 M3554G3
53RV35 7O PR0V3
H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
17 WA5 H4RD BU7
N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
Y0UR M1ND 1S
R34D1NG 17
4U70M471C4LLY
W17H 0U7 3V3N
7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
B3 PROUD! 0NLY
C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
R3AD 7H15.
PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
U C4N R34D 7H15.

It isn't all that hard to read but why bother? What's the point when one
can write it properly? And that is the whole point of those who disliked
your original post...you wanted feedback from readers so why not just post
your question/problem succinctly using reasonable English?

It was quite reasonable. What in particular is your grouse?

Heh, yer gonna miss my unreasonable Englich, when they have you speaking
Reasonable Spanich....
Been in HD lately?? goodgawd....


IOW, it isn't a problem of being unable to read your "simple ****", it's
just a matter of "why bother".

Which is usually the bleat of the simple mind, esp. overly-entitled *gangs*
of simple minds.

Exactly what was so troublesome about the op? What part of "gratuitous
complexity" don't y'all understand?
--
EA



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:

Existential Angst wrote:

If you can read the following paragraph, forward it to your friends
and the person who sent it to you with 'Yes' in the subject line.
Only very good minds can read this. This is weird, but interesting!

7H15 M3554G3
53RV35 7O PR0V3
H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
17 WA5 H4RD BU7
N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
Y0UR M1ND 1S
R34D1NG 17
4U70M471C4LLY
W17H 0U7 3V3N
7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
B3 PROUD! 0NLY
C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
R3AD 7H15.
PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
U C4N R34D 7H15.

It isn't all that hard to read but why bother? What's the point when one
can write it properly? And that is the whole point of those who disliked
your original post...you wanted feedback from readers so why not just post
your question/problem succinctly using reasonable English?

IOW, it isn't a problem of being unable to read your "simple ****", it's
just a matter of "why bother".


That's why so many just kill file the fool.

On Feb 22, 9:55*am, "Existential Angst" wrote:
...snip....

================================================== ===========

BRAIN EXERCISES

If you can read this OUT LOUD, you have a strong mind. And better than that:
Alzheimer's is a long, long, way down the road before it ever gets anywhere
near you.

If you can read the following paragraph, forward it to your friends and the
person who sent it to you with 'Yes' in the subject line. Only very good
minds can read this. This is weird, but interesting!

7H15 M3554G3
53RV35 7O PR0V3
H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
17 WA5 H4RD BU7
N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
Y0UR M1ND 1S
R34D1NG 17
4U70M471C4LLY
W17H 0U7 3V3N
7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
B3 PROUD! 0NLY
C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
R3AD 7H15.
PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
U C4N R34D 7H15.

If you can read this, you are one of the 55 people out of 100 who can.

I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The
phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde
Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in what oerdr the ltteres in a word are, the
olny iproamtnt tihng is that the frsit and last ltteer be in the rghit
pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it whotuit a
pboerlm. This is bcuseaethe huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef,
but the word as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was
ipmorantt! If you can raed this forwrad it

================================================== ===
...snip...

The worst part of rading that message is that as you read it, it
actually starts to become looking 'normal' and speed of reading picks
up!

Communication only needs to be unique. Conculsion is reinforced by the
experiences of meeting a wheelchair stricken man when we moved into
our flat. MS? or something as debilitating. He greeted my "Good
morning" to him with an unintelligible response of high pitched vowels
only. His attending care provider 'interpreted' what he said. Within a
year of continually seeing this gentleman in the lift and conversing
briefly; I could actually hold a conversation discussing weather,
events, etc. without the need of interpretation from his attending
care provider. Learned a lot from thse interactions.

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood, deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an
excellent pun, eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall beautiful,
'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll
bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used
to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all
over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their
PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and
pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of
a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by
just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very
funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving.
Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be
all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of
HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which
I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite et
al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?

Some people are serious about their kitchens, including renters:
http://gothamist.com/2010/02/24/ikea_couple.php

Not great pubicity for Ikea.... LOL
--
EA





--
EA

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong...
EA

Except for Elegant that could describe a submarine's galley.
http://www.maritime.org/tour/cm-galley.php

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...

SNIP
Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun, eh??
LOL

Wife designed our house layout. Great.Since we moved in I had to change the
following to her liking.
Close off one kitchen door. Move cabinets and add more cabinets. Then lower
cabinets so she could reach things better.
Move front door entry closet and close off another door. This involved
moving some of the hot water heat base board tubes.
Adding Drawers and enclosed shelving in entry way to attached garage. Make a
TV and audio electronic cabinet.
Built a custom computer table. Good thing I like to do these things. Some
day I MAY get to fixing up my shop. WW

clipped
So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

I had one kitchen that was quite large but had very little cabinet
space. I was also buying antiques at the time and had a 50" round oak
table, a bakers cabinet (sans flour sifter) with bin drawers and a pie
safe. I used decorated tins for storing food stuff; they were cheap and
sturdy. Glass cannisters (Walmart still carries the same style), and
glass jars with plastic seals for stuff like beans, rice. Food makes a
decent display theme and I like stuff at hand. That said, I would never
use open shelves in a kitchen unless it was for something used
daily...too dusty and greasy.

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes
are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which
actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of HIDING
dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I've never been a fan of granite...good old practical Formica is fine.
One mistake, in choosing a stone-pattern Formica was that it was hard to
tell when there were crumbs on it. Good disguise )

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who allowed
me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which I spread
throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We realized that you
had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that most choices would be
regretted. We realized that if going the granite et al route, a single
color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks,
cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential
there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Anodized alum would probably scratch. Glass would be insane for
countertops. Out of necessity, we used it for backsplash above our
cooktop and I loved it...pressed pattern glass with the smooth side out
was super easy to clean, and solid laminate behind it. Could put any
pattern of laminate or ?wallpaper, or colored glass. No tile grout for
me. The backsplash was sealed all around so no gunk or steam behind it...

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can
also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

I have suddenly, in my old age, craved simplicity...not a lot of
decoration, smooth front cabinets that are easy to clean and DURABLE.
My cupboards are never arranged so I would want the contents visible.
If I had elegant dishes and glassware, and loads of space, maybe.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL
Thoughts, idears, experiences?


A lot depends on how you use the kitchen...cook three meals a day for a
family, eat out a lot, gourmet cooking, entertain a lot and want the
company in kitchen whilst cooking?

My present kitchen is small but very well organized and easy to work in.
I have crocks on the counter for utensils and measuring spoons and
stuff. Corner lazy susan is a must. Window above sink, very bright
during day but lousy lighting at night...hate cfl bulbs.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:10:46 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:

( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun,
eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall
beautiful, 'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving),
I'll bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are
actually used to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat
1.25" granite all over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and
toaster-up their PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving
yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile
of a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was
struck by just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional
and very funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving. Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found
them to be all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like)
alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks
good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer
eyes are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns,
which actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job
of HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble,
which I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite
et al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever
breaks, cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design
potential there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and
can also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL Thoughts, idears,
experiences?

Our kitchen counters are all tile. If we're holding a hot pot and we say
"I need to put this thing down NOW!!! WTF can I put this thing?" the
answer is always "anywhere that's flat". And I mean anywhere in the
whole kitchen, because the whole kitchen counter is tile.

You cannot imagine the convenience of that until you've lived it. That's
one thing that stone would give you. I'd suggest that if you use glass,
use tempered glass and test a sheet of it with a pot roast fresh from the
oven. I would be suspicious of aluminum -- it'd spread the heat both
down into the underlying glue and across the counter to whatever is close
by (like, say, your hand).

The tile is patterned, but it's much less aggressive than granite, and
it's light colored. It's also textured, which is a pain if you're
kneading bread -- marble would solve that problem, though, and still
provide the "everywhere is a hot pad" goodness.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

On 2/21/2013 10:30 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:10:46 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:

( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's
anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen....
tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun,
eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD
kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar
with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let
them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall
beautiful, 'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving),
I'll bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are
actually used to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat
1.25" granite all over the place, the ****ty li'l brats run in and
toaster-up their PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving
yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladis**** is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously*
expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile
of a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was
struck by just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional
and very funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen??
Nothing matched in it, none of this bull**** HGTV ""design"", altho he
was
blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a
goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fulla**** changed to 100%
fulla****. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open
shelving. Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found
them to be all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/prod...3572526&RN=204 (or
google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and
*visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc.
These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many
kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the
dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have
actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant,
minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas
GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well.
This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to
being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins.
These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can
**** get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a
variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like)
alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage?
Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no
do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang.
One thing I learnt with all this granite bull**** is that what looks
good
in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer
eyes are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns,
which actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job
of HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who
allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble,
which I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We
realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that
most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite
et al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate
countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter,
butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever
breaks, cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design
potential there. And economy.
**** Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or
translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and
can also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this.
Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL Thoughts, idears,
experiences?

Our kitchen counters are all tile. If we're holding a hot pot and we say
"I need to put this thing down NOW!!! WTF can I put this thing?" the
answer is always "anywhere that's flat". And I mean anywhere in the
whole kitchen, because the whole kitchen counter is tile.

You cannot imagine the convenience of that until you've lived it. That's
one thing that stone would give you. I'd suggest that if you use glass,
use tempered glass and test a sheet of it with a pot roast fresh from the
oven. I would be suspicious of aluminum -- it'd spread the heat both
down into the underlying glue and across the counter to whatever is close
by (like, say, your hand).

The tile is patterned, but it's much less aggressive than granite, and
it's light colored. It's also textured, which is a pain if you're
kneading bread -- marble would solve that problem, though, and still
provide the "everywhere is a hot pad" goodness.


i used granite tiles set abutting. grout is a minimal 1/16" or less.

i wouldn't use tempered glass, unless it was 1" thick or more. at that
thickness, you're looking at granite costs and weight.

"Tim Wescott" wrote in message news:Kf-

Our kitchen counters are all tile. If we're holding a hot pot and
we say
"I need to put this thing down NOW!!! WTF can I put this thing?"
the
answer is always "anywhere that's flat". And I mean anywhere in the
whole kitchen, because the whole kitchen counter is tile.

Tim Wescott

In the winter I cook on the woodstove in the shop. "anywhere that's
flat" for hot pans is the milling machine table.

On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:10:46 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section)
(RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's anti-wood,
deal with it)

Awl --

It's too bad you can't write worth crap.

illiterate rant snipped

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her
kitchen....

You have a shop. Build your cupboards. Look around. There will be someone
in the area making custom doors. The boxes are easy.