On 2/1/2013 11:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I can't see that whole process taking more than 30 minutes.

See previous post re making custom tenons ... you hit the nail on the head.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/2/13 10:37 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)

The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and
making custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least
30% ...

Its the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would burn
time that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up machines to
rip, joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc., to relatively
tight consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if you make 100s or
1,000s of them in what otherwise would be down time it would be OK, and
cost effective, but in the middle of a job it strikes me as a time
burning distraction.

The operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose
tenons" notwithstanding:

For 1 1/2 x 1/4 x 2" loose tenons:

I can set the fence and rip a 1x2x8 board into TWO boards of 1/4' thick
stock in less than five minutes on the table saw, with setup ... and
that's being pokey.

I can easily make 8 roundover passes with the resultant two pieces on
the router table in less than ten minutes, with setup.

I can easily cut 2" tenons from that stock on the table saw/sled at a
rate of 12 tenons/minute, or approximately five seconds each, with setup
of the stop block on the sled.

And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
tenons for four complete chairs.

That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...

... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
operation, and just talking about it.


Wow, I guess my estimation was spot on. :-)

Now, figure out how long it would've taken to get on the computer, find
the best price, place the order and get back out to the shop to work.
Even if you could do it on the iPad in 15 minutes... now, you're waiting
for UPS.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 2/2/13 10:39 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/1/2013 11:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I can't see that whole process taking more than 30 minutes.

See previous post re making custom tenons ... you hit the nail on the head.


There ya go... I already replied to your previous post, before reading
this one.
Dare I say, "great minds?" :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:37:32 -0600, Swingman wrote:
That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Ok, maybe you can make them that quick. But, there's other factors to
consider too. Setup time, clean up time. However you want to lay it
out, there's always other things to consider too.

Your carpentry pays for your living and your time is often not just
leisure time. Making loose tenons compared to buying them is not as
simple a comparison as it sounds.

On 2/2/2013 12:09 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:37:32 -0600, Swingman wrote:
That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Ok, maybe you can make them that quick. But, there's other factors to
consider too. Setup time, clean up time. However you want to lay it
out, there's always other things to consider too.

If you had really read the post, you would have noticed that "setup
time" was included.

Your carpentry pays for your living and your time is often not just
leisure time. Making loose tenons compared to buying them is not as
simple a comparison as it sounds.

I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have
clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and
"custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY
addressing ONLY the time issue involved.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of shop
hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on future
jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose tenons for
four complete chairs.

That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long would
it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...

... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
operation, and just talking about it.

I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes even
more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on the very
low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more realistically probably
more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover labor, profit, and the fixed
and variable costs of having the shop and equipment [taxes, heat/cooling,
electric, interest, maintenance, insurance, holding costs of inventory,
depreciation, etc., etc.]). I have one associate whose commercial shop
costs him about $35K/year whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours
per week for 50 weeks per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover
the fixed costs!

That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts the
cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each (($100/2)/80)
plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison, the Rockler site
lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons, 8x22x50mm at $82 with $12
shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if you used two per joint and
charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than make when you take the cost of
the wood into account. Value engineering would ask if it makes sense to use
a "custom" size when functionally a "standard" size would do the job for
lower cost. In a commercial environment maintaining some inventory of
fasteners and adhesives is requisite when you take the opportunity costs of
"running to the store" or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for
inventory would not be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the
discretionary time available to many, if not most of us would be more
pleasantly spent on the primary project not on creating "standard"
fasteners... even at about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.

Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time
(money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost for
making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that time in
any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to buy them
rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you are taking
money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the situation through a
different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't spent time making things
that could be bought cheaper when all the opportunity costs are taken into
account. ;~)

John

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:04:33 -0600, Swingman wrote:
I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have
clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and
"custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY
addressing ONLY the time issue involved.

So, what was it for then? Maybe an exercise in what if?

In the real world, you make your living in the building trade. Time is
money. However you want to slice it using a multi-router or whatever,
making your own tenons compared to buying them is NOT an equal trade
off.

On 2/2/2013 2:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
tenons for four complete chairs.

That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...

... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with
an operation, and just talking about it.

I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on
the very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more
realistically probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover
labor, profit, and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and
equipment [taxes, heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance,
insurance, holding costs of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I
have one associate whose commercial shop costs him about $35K/year
whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks
per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!

That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts
the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each
(($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison,
the Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons,
8x22x50mm at $82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if
you used two per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than
make when you take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering
would ask if it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a
"standard" size would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial
environment maintaining some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is
requisite when you take the opportunity costs of "running to the store"
or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for inventory would not
be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the discretionary time
available to many, if not most of us would be more pleasantly spent on
the primary project not on creating "standard" fasteners... even at
about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.

Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time
(money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost
for making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that
time in any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to
buy them rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you
are taking money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the
situation through a different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't
spent time making things that could be bought cheaper when all the
opportunity costs are taken into account. ;~)

John
I totally agree for professionals, but not for the hobbiest. Most of us
spend a lot of time not doing projects, but doing small work. Consider
this a small work task that can be done just as efficiently and for no
real cost other than the cost of wood, which I think many of us have
strips of wood that would make the teonons cheap to make and use up some
of the off cuts we have.

--
Jeff

On 2/2/13 1:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
tenons for four complete chairs.

That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...

... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with
an operation, and just talking about it.

I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on
the very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more
realistically probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover
labor, profit, and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and
equipment [taxes, heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance,
insurance, holding costs of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I
have one associate whose commercial shop costs him about $35K/year
whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks
per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!

That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts
the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each
(($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison,
the Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons,
8x22x50mm at $82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if
you used two per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than
make when you take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering
would ask if it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a
"standard" size would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial
environment maintaining some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is
requisite when you take the opportunity costs of "running to the store"
or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for inventory would not
be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the discretionary time
available to many, if not most of us would be more pleasantly spent on
the primary project not on creating "standard" fasteners... even at
about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.

Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time
(money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost
for making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that
time in any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to
buy them rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you
are taking money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the
situation through a different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't
spent time making things that could be bought cheaper when all the
opportunity costs are taken into account. ;~)

John

I would venture a guess that both time and material for this were
already "paid for."

The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to size.
The time... all 30 minutes of it :-)... was probably "leftover" time
from waiting for something to cure/dry or that magic period between work
and a meal in which there's not enough time to start another
step/procedure. We've certainly all had 30 minutes in "wife-time" that
were spent looking for something to do while she takes "5 minutes"
to put her face on before going out to dinner. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Here's the bottom line for me on build vs buy: I'm a hobbyist and if I use 100 tenons in a year I will be surprised. Having said that, once I get my hands on what Jessem sends, I'm bound to try making my own.

Larry

woodchucker wrote in
:

What about cutting your own, just thickness on the bandsaw or tablesaw,
rip to width, route roundover then cut to length... certainly you can
make a few hundred in an hour. If you do it right.

Oh, easily. Initial setup is the big time consumer there. Once you've got the right thickness on
the planer, and the correct height on the router, producing tenon stock at the rate of nearly a
foot a minute is no problem at all.

On 2/2/2013 2:02 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's the bottom line for me on build vs buy: I'm a hobbyist and if I use 100 tenons in a year I will be surprised. Having said that, once I get my hands on what Jessem sends, I'm bound to try making my own.

Larry



FWIW, hobbyist or not, being able to cut mortises and use tenons more
quickly affords you the advantage of building "better more quickly".
If you are anything like me you will find that if the tool is worth
while and not a PIA to use you will use it more in place of other other
tools. You will find more reasons to use the this type joinery. Building
furniture with mortise and tenon joinery is a by far better than using
pocket hole screws and or biscuits.

Basically if you are not satisfied by the Jesem jig don't let that leave
you with a bad taste for mortise and tenon joinery.

"John Grossbohlin" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message ...

On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
tenons for four complete chairs.

That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...

... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
operation, and just talking about it.

I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on the
very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more realistically
probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover labor, profit,
and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and equipment [taxes,
heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance, insurance, holding costs
of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I have one associate whose
commercial shop costs him about $35K/year whether he makes anything or
not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks per year he needs to charge
$17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!

That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts
the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each
(($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison, the
Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons, 8x22x50mm at
$82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if you used two
per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than make when you
take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering would ask if
it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a "standard" size
would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial environment maintaining
some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is requisite when you take the
opportunity costs of "running to the store" or "making upon need" into
account so buying 600 for inventory would not be unreasonable. In a hobby
shop environment, the discretionary time available to many, if not most
of us would be more pleasantly spent on the primary project not on
creating "standard" fasteners... even at about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.

No, you are missing the point.

Once again ... I do custom work, I have the capability to dimension the
tenon for maximum strength, I cut "custom sized" tenons, I have used that
term repeatedly since my original post in this thread, I can't buy "custom
sized" tenons at Rockler and refuse to use "standard, one size fits all to
the possible detriment of the integrity of the project joinery.

You took it upon yourself to reply to my post flatly stating that this
practice was a waste of time, and a "burning distraction", obviously
without any experience to back it up.

You are totally wrong in that statement, and in your assumption, for that
is what it is, an assumption, based on nothing but conjecture.

I'll ask you the same question asked of Dave ... Where does one buy "custom
sized" tenons in order to forego this imagined waste of time and money of
yours?

Let me hear a reply based on experience ... enough assumption and
conjecture.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

Dave wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:04:33 -0600, Swingman wrote:
I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have
clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and
"custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY
addressing ONLY the time issue involved.

So, what was it for then? Maybe an exercise in what if?

In the real world, you make your living in the building trade. Time is
money. However you want to slice it using a multi-router or whatever,
making your own tenons compared to buying them is NOT an equal trade
off.

So tell, where do I buy "customer sized" tenons?

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

-MIKE- wrote:


I would venture a guess that both time and material for this were
already "paid for."

The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to
size.

I'll say this... as people have speculated that Karl may be using cutoffs
for his tennons, it has elevated the stack of kindling sitting over in the
corner to a new level. I might just run some of that stuff through the saw,
then the router, and stuff the finished product into a coffee can for future
use.

--

-Mike-

On 2/2/13 3:50 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/2/2013 2:02 PM, Gramp's shop wrote:
Here's the bottom line for me on build vs buy: I'm a hobbyist and if I
use 100 tenons in a year I will be surprised. Having said that, once
I get my hands on what Jessem sends, I'm bound to try making my own.

Larry



FWIW, hobbyist or not, being able to cut mortises and use tenons more
quickly affords you the advantage of building "better more quickly". If
you are anything like me you will find that if the tool is worth while
and not a PIA to use you will use it more in place of other other tools.
You will find more reasons to use the this type joinery. Building
furniture with mortise and tenon joinery is a by far better than using
pocket hole screws and or biscuits.

Basically if you are not satisfied by the Jesem jig don't let that leave
you with a bad taste for mortise and tenon joinery.


I optimistically think the opposite would happen.
As with pocket holes, even an awkward, simple jig that requires extra
steps and time in order to make lots of joints allows you to fall in
love with the use of pocket holes. I've never upgraded by simple little
jig, but I use a ton of those joints. I think whenever i do upgrade to
one with integrated tables, clamps, dust vac exhaust, etc., it'll be a
wonderful luxury, but I'm not going to stop using pocket holes any time
soon, simple because my little Kreg can be awkward.

I'm in the same position with my current doweling jig that is pretty
awkward and slow to use. I've developed steps and processes to make
things go more quickly, but I still see the advantage of dowels and can
easily see how loose tenon joinery (especially the Domino) will be a
great improvement. I look forward to owning and using a Domino, but I'm
still going to make lots of joints using dowels (round loose tenons).


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
On 2/2/13 1:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
tenons for four complete chairs.

That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...

... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with
an operation, and just talking about it.

I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes
even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on

The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to size.
The time... all 30 minutes of it :-)... was probably "leftover" time
from waiting for something to cure/dry or that magic period between work
and a meal in which there's not enough time to start another
step/procedure. We've certainly all had 30 minutes in "wife-time" that
were spent looking for something to do while she takes "5 minutes"
to put her face on before going out to dinner. :-)

You're right about project cutoffs being used when possible.

What is being discounted in this little 'Tete a Tete' is the fact that
correctly sizing mortise and tenon joints is dependent upon very specific
parameters, both regarding material dimensions, and the job of the
particular joint.

These traditional parameters are based on practices that have "stood the
test of time", and are ignored at your own peril.

While the original Domino is quite adequate for most tasks, the above is
the main reason why I did not rush to replace my Multi-Router with the
original Domino.

To argue in favor of purchasing "standard" size loose tenons, versus taking
the negligible time to make "custom sized", and without regard to time
tested methods of properly sizing the joinery ... and to use the rationale
that "time is money" for that argument, is simply an indication of a lack
of experience in the operation.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:37:32 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)

The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and
making custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least
30% ...

It’s the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would burn
time that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up machines to
rip, joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc., to relatively
tight consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if you make 100s or
1,000s of them in what otherwise would be down time it would be OK, and
cost effective, but in the middle of a job it strikes me as a time
burning distraction.

The operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose
tenons" notwithstanding:

For 1 1/2 x 1/4 x 2" loose tenons:

I can set the fence and rip a 1x2x8 board into TWO boards of 1/4' thick
stock in less than five minutes on the table saw, with setup ... and
that's being pokey.

I can easily make 8 roundover passes with the resultant two pieces on
the router table in less than ten minutes, with setup.

I can easily cut 2" tenons from that stock on the table saw/sled at a
rate of 12 tenons/minute, or approximately five seconds each, with setup
of the stop block on the sled.

And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of
shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on
future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose
tenons for four complete chairs.

That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long
would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?

Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...

... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an
operation, and just talking about it.

If you can cut the tenons in 30 minutes then in most cases it would be
cheaper and more time effecient. You can't get in your vehicle and
go anywere and back to buy supplies in 30 minutes. In addition you
don't have to deal with the fools on the road or in the stores.

Mike M

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 15:51:17 -0600, Swingman wrote:
So tell, where do I buy "customer sized" tenons?

Mea Culpa. Obviously, I missed that fact.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

"John Grossbohlin" wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

You took it upon yourself to reply to my post flatly stating that this
practice was a waste of time, and a "burning distraction", obviously
without any experience to back it up.

You are totally wrong in that statement, and in your assumption, for that
is what it is, an assumption, based on nothing but conjecture.

I'll ask you the same question asked of Dave ... Where does one buy "custom
sized" tenons in order to forego this imagined waste of time and money of
yours?

Let me hear a reply based on experience ... enough assumption and
conjecture.

I often wonder how threads on the rec spin out of control... There was
nothing in my posts that should have gotten you all hot and bothered. The
first one about "time" had an exclamation point no less! Thus there was no
need for personal attacks about experience, skill, or anything else. That
said, my experience and skills are adequate to have gleaned me a box full of
woodworking awards from multiple shows and have kept me on the
lecture/instructor schedule for the past decade or so. I've lost actual
count of both... My experience as a management professor and project manager
never let me stray far from cost/benefit analysis.

Being treasurer for the Northeastern Woodworkers Association's Mid-Hudson
Chapter for about 9-10 years has afforded me the opportunity to see a lot of
work, a lot of shops, and meet a lot of professional woodworkers (all kinds
from local to the internationally famous), writers and editors. TV
woodworkers too... Abram, Marks, Underhill--I originally met him while I was
working at Colonial Williamsburg, VA when he was the master housewright. As
such, I've got a pretty good idea how things work and fully appreciate that
there are often myriad ways in which a task could be completed. Thus I was
making an informed observation about time.

All that said, I generally use mortise and tenon and/or hand cut dovetails
in my solid wood work. For the one off furniture and cabinet work I do
there hasn't been a time where mortise and tenons were a problem. My solid
wood casework and drawers are typically done with hand cut dovetails with
some frame and panel pieces thrown in too. Splines, loose tenons, biscuits,
nails/screws and glue show up in some works depending on the fineness of the
work and the intended use.

I am reminded of a dinner discussion the Saturday evening of Woodworkers
Showcase 2008 with Doug Stowe, Peter Korn, Wayne Barton and others. Chris
Schwarz had made other plans for that evening that included drinking beer...
;~) During the discussion a comment was made by Peter that amateurs will
continue to do the best work as professionals do not have time to do so and
make a living. That theme permeates most of the discussions I have had with
professional woodworkers... they need to get the job done as quickly,
efficiently and workmanlike as possible in order to make a decent living.
There are only a few professionals whom I know who work in the
museum/gallery markets who command prices high enough to strive for
perfection in their work--I wouldn't call any of them rich. The "production
shops" (that do jobs like built ins and interior trim for hotels, banks,
churches, hospitals, etc.) seem to be more acutely aware of the time costs
than the others as 5-10 minutes per unit adds up to hours and even weeks of
shop time on big jobs. This time cost is less visible in one off work but
still impacts the income surplus at the end of the year.

John

On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:43:41 -0600, Swingman wrote:
To argue in favor of purchasing "standard" size loose tenons, versus taking
the negligible time to make "custom sized", and without regard to time
tested methods of properly sizing the joinery ... and to use the rationale
that "time is money" for that argument, is simply an indication of a lack
of experience in the operation.

I think you do have to agree though, that between the Domino 500 and
the new XL700, a large variety of tenon sizes are covered. I'd suggest
to you that you could take double the time to make your specialized
tenons and have even a better fit.

But, even you have a cut off time where you determine that it's not
worth further time and effort. The phrase "time is money" is not as
useless a rationale as your statement above would suggest.

On 2/2/2013 7:31 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message

I'll ask you the same question asked of Dave ... Where does one buy
"custom sized" tenons in order to forego this imagined waste of time
and money of yours?

Let me hear a reply based on experience ... enough assumption and
conjecture.

I often wonder how threads on the rec spin out of control...

Easy ... do as you did: introduce pure conjecture into a discussion
based on hands on experience and then unilaterally decree it a waste of
time and a "burning distraction".

else. That said, my experience and skills are adequate to have gleaned
me a box full of woodworking awards from multiple shows and have kept me
on the lecture/instructor schedule for the past decade or so. I've lost
actual count of both... My experience as a management professor and
project manager never let me stray far from cost/benefit analysis.

Despite all the horn tooting/name dropping, a simple question, asked of
you regarding a position that _you_ alone took upon _yourself_ to
interject into a conversation, remains totally ignored and unanswered.

Maybe this one is easier for you:

Just how many loose tenons does a "management professor" have to cut
before he takes it upon himself to unilaterally decree it a waste of
time and a "burning distraction"?

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/2/2013 7:42 PM, Dave wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:43:41 -0600, Swingman wrote:

To argue in favor of purchasing "standard" size loose tenons, versus taking
the negligible time to make "custom sized", and without regard to time
tested methods of properly sizing the joinery ... and to use the rationale
that "time is money" for that argument, is simply an indication of a lack
of experience in the operation.

I think you do have to agree though, that between the Domino 500 and
the new XL700, a large variety of tenon sizes are covered. I'd suggest
to you that you could take double the time to make your specialized
tenons and have even a better fit.

Huh?

But, even you have a cut off time where you determine that it's not
worth further time and effort. The phrase "time is money" is not as
useless a rationale as your statement above would suggest.

Dave, what are you talking about? For the life of me, I can't see how
your above can be remotely considered germane to my quote without a
large leap in imagination/supposition?

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 2/2/2013 7:07 PM, Mike M wrote:

If you can cut the tenons in 30 minutes then in most cases it would be
cheaper and more time effecient. You can't get in your vehicle and
go anywere and back to buy supplies in 30 minutes. In addition you
don't have to deal with the fools on the road or in the stores.

Yep, and as long as we're talking "ifs" ... don't forget "if" you could
even find them to buy ... which you can't.

Sorta the main (but one of a few others) reason for making them
yourself, you reckon?

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Mike Marlow" wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:


I would venture a guess that both time and material for this were
already "paid for."

The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to
size.

I'll say this... as people have speculated that Karl may be using cutoffs
for his tennons, it has elevated the stack of kindling sitting over in the
corner to a new level. I might just run some of that stuff through the saw,
then the router, and stuff the finished product into a coffee can for future
use.

LMAO ... A coffee can, and coffee box, are just the thing:

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ST...205:17:36%20PM

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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 00:20:03 -0600, Swingman wrote:
Dave, what are you talking about? For the life of me, I can't see how
your above can be remotely considered germane to my quote without a
large leap in imagination/supposition?

That response was before I found out you were talking about odd sized
tenons. When I replied I thought you were making loose tenons
comparably sized to regular Domino tenons.

There has to be a cut off point where it's cheaper time wise to buy
the tenons instead of making them. After all, you do have other things
to do besides just making loose tenons.

All of this is a moot point anyway. If you need some Domino sized
tenons, you can invite your buddy over for dinner and ask him to bring
some tenons with him.

Swingman wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote:


I'll say this... as people have speculated that Karl may be using
cutoffs for his tennons, it has elevated the stack of kindling
sitting over in the corner to a new level. I might just run some of
that stuff through the saw, then the router, and stuff the finished
product into a coffee can for future use.

LMAO ... A coffee can, and coffee box, are just the thing:


I was just thinking about this very thing recently. I was contemplating
using mortise and tenon joinery on a very small project - mostly because I
wanted to, not because I needed to. I nixed the idea based on one single
thought - I just did not want to dick around with cutting tenons in the
midst of the project. Lame excuse, I know - but that's the way it was. I
just didn't want to take the time to set up both the saw and the router to
monkey around, all for the sake of 2 tenons. I could have cut conventional
tenons on one of the pieces, and I almost did, but decided not to. Point
being - having a stock of tenons on hand would have made that an entirely
different decision. Since most of what I do is with standard 1x stock, a
stock of 1/4" tenon lengths would be handy to have at hand (so to speak).
Yank one out, cut it to length, and stick it in the hole with a little snot
on it, and the joint would have been done as fast as screwing it.

--

-Mike-

"Swingman" wrote in message
m...

In my world we discuss and debate ideas and solve problems... We spend some
time discussing events themselves and pretty much no time talking about
people. With the slide from ideas to personal attacks this thread itself has
become a "time burning distraction." It warrants no further attention as
you clearly missed my point right from the beginning and any expansion has
been deemed as evasive despite supporting comments by others. I'll chalk it
up to this being an anomaly and not your norm.

On 2/3/2013 11:49 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...

In my world we discuss and debate ideas and solve problems...

snip of holier than thou BS

And, you obviously do NOT answer civil questions, where an honest may be
embarrassing to your untenable position on an issue.

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 00:25:33 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/2/2013 7:07 PM, Mike M wrote:

If you can cut the tenons in 30 minutes then in most cases it would be
cheaper and more time effecient. You can't get in your vehicle and
go anywere and back to buy supplies in 30 minutes. In addition you
don't have to deal with the fools on the road or in the stores.

Yep, and as long as we're talking "ifs" ... don't forget "if" you could
even find them to buy ... which you can't.

Sorta the main (but one of a few others) reason for making them
yourself, you reckon?

8-) If the size needed isn't available you have to be loosing your
patients answering all our foolish comments.

Mike M

On 2/3/2013 5:51 PM, Mike M wrote:

8-) If the size needed isn't available you have to be loosing your
patients answering all our foolish comments.

LOL The only "patience" around here are apparently running "lose" from a
mental ward. g

No, "CUSTOM SIZED" loose tenons are NOT _available_ for sale on this
planet .... but maybe not for long.

But, that may be what is driving them mad ... that such a simple concept
can obviously be so confusing, eh?

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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)